Staghorn_Moonlancer
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Another Monkey Wrench towards zerker damage
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http://warbringers.homestead.com/files/compilation.JPG
Hold that thought, I'm a little "feclempt". Talk amongst yourselves, I'll give you a topic. "Zerkers do more damage than any pure tank AND any 2h weapon user with a faster swing time and a gerbil mode that only has a seven minute timer, thus allowing them a garunteed gerbil mode for every battle yet middies still defend thier zerkers as just what the doctor ordered ." Discuss.
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grarl
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Another Monkey Wrench towards zerker damage
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Lanalae does 3861 damage to him in that screenshot. I don't see him getting healed. Uhhh?
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Aka. Grarl/Fuga and others: http://warhammermonkey.com/p/fuga/ <House of Honour><Despoilers><Dark Kindred> http://kronholm.org/despoilers/ || http://www.dkwar.com/ Member of the Mythic UI Development Group. My WAR addons: http://korturl.dk/ydw
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kobold_nickel
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Another Monkey Wrench towards zerker damage
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only guess nickel has is that he moosed.
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Farlak
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Another Monkey Wrench towards zerker damage
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Let's see about the standard mid responses:
"You are a caster wearing paper armor, what did you expect!"
Hmm, no that wont work.
"Not every zerker hits like that! XXX is realm rank 8 and has the very best gear!"
Hmm, yes, expect a modification of this to appear in this thread.
"We have all the relics!"
No, just their own so this wont work in this thread, moving on.
"We are the melee realm for crying out loud!"
Yes, this should show up in one of the first replies.
"Cry more n00b!"
Well obviously this will show up.
"Nerf BoF!"
Yes, trying to switch the attention to another overpowered thing is always a good option, so that should sneak in there somewhere as well.
Did I miss anything?
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Serennia
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Another Monkey Wrench towards zerker damage
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I believe you do the little
"Staghorn channels the spirit of the hunt!"
message if he moosed.
My guess is the last hit up in the 1000's was overkill, and he didn't have that much life to give.
But seriously, hitting for over 1000 damage? wow.
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Arglaar
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Another Monkey Wrench towards zerker damage
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I'm sorry.... are you complaining because a R7L3 Zerker got some good Crits on you and kicked yer R4L9 behind?
Try getting some MP AF102 Spellcrafted Gear and see if that changes anything. Maybe a few million more RP's would help too.
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Geig
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Another Monkey Wrench towards zerker damage
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Scale = Vulnerable to Slash
Zerkers are finding out how stats effect thier damage. Namely quickness. They will keep quickness as low as possible it makes thier damage go way up.
Even with my shadowblade, I find that I can solo a hib tank and have about 1 in 3 chances of winning, even when I'm unbuffed.
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Grakk_Stalskrig
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Another Monkey Wrench towards zerker damage
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61+902+92+747+99+788+74+61 = 2824 damage, NOT counting the killing blow.
Not a single heal, no moose.
My, what nice buffs you had .....
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Turkinolith
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Another Monkey Wrench towards zerker damage
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Maybe a few million more RP's would help too.
class balanceing with RA's is stupid mkay?
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Farlak
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Another Monkey Wrench towards zerker damage
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"Try getting some MP AF102 Spellcrafted Gear and see if that changes anything."
He has 100% AF100 armor with 28% slash resists. I am sure the additional total AF if he had AF102 instead would really make a difference. Or not...
"Maybe a few million more RP's would help too. "
Why? Does your absorb% magically raise when you get realmpoints? No?
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Cloudd006
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Another Monkey Wrench towards zerker damage
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<I'm sorry.... are you complaining because a R7L3 Zerker got some good Crits on you and kicked yer R4L9 behind?>
So me, being 7Lsomething, started hitting for 1k damage with my one handed weapon, it'd be ok? Because I'm RR7? LOL.
There is no justification for this type of damage on a tank class, jeez...especially at the rate of speed zerks swing at.
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Sanger_BlessedFlight
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Another Monkey Wrench towards zerker damage
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Also notice the very FIRST hit Lanalae landed was cut off, her mainhand hit, which on average would put his hit points well over 3000.
So a guy that absorbed 4000 hit points of damage is crying?
Good crapalmighty...
Let's also look at who he was attacking: Gramse da healer. (mental note: must speak with Gramse about his resists, 19% too low)
Lanalae, being no RvR newb probably was getting a positional style off on your preoccupied arse.
Anyway...who cares?
She whupped ya good, right now our zerkers are one of the few things keeping Midgard competitive.
I guarantee she had end regen or you would have watched that damage drop drastically.
So chalk one up for the good guys, and sorry you gotta pick dirt out from between yer teeth.
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{old}LastRegrets
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Another Monkey Wrench towards zerker damage
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bahahaha, love your sig sanger.
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Staghorn_Moonlancer
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Subject:
Another Monkey Wrench towards zerker damage
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If you look at my quickbar, you will notice 2 greyed out icons. One is purge and the other is Ignore Pain.
I have my spells text turned off (notice no blue text whatsoever)
I do not know if I got healed, but I did not channel Spirit of the Hunt (thus why the icon that looks like protect is still colored; SOTH is the same icon as protect)
I used Ignore Pain in that battle. So yes I had 3000+ hit points.
And I do not care if Lanalee was Rank 10, no melee class should hit for that much, not even 2h weapon users such as myself. Also, no style, i.e., back positionals (as one fellow assumed she used on me, which she didnt) should hit for that much.
And I do not care if all my gear was 100 AF and at 95 con, I still should not be hit that hard by melee. You will notice however that all my equipement is at 100 con except for a few pieces (at 99) and my boots are 102 AF. Even so, 2 extra AF per armor is not going to turn a 1082 hit into a more reasonable 400 hit, thus, spellcrafted and 102 AF armor would not change the damage outcome of this encounter by any considerable length.
I laugh harder every time i see someone defending zerker damage. Even if we present screenshots, chatlogs, proof out the ying-yang, the uber d00dz still defend thier broken zerker class.
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Cronofire
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Subject:
Another Monkey Wrench towards zerker damage
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Nerf Right Axe.
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where art thou Meridian 59? 
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Barrtok
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Another Monkey Wrench towards zerker damage
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personally i dont have much problem with zerkers, so i dont know, nice hits for sure, maybe Jeager should take some classes 
but one thing i notice is that you never see alb screenshots of these kind of hits.
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Staghorn_Moonlancer
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Another Monkey Wrench towards zerker damage
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Albion has plate, but I doubt that plate would make much of a difference.
I literally have dozens of other screenshots of insane zerker damage, and from enemies that are not RR7+, so this excuse just doesnt hold ground.
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Vector-
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Another Monkey Wrench towards zerker damage
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I would like to remind you that:
MELEE RESISTS INCREASE THE AMMOUNT OF DAMAGE BERZERKERS DO
because of the way critical damage is calculated, namely BEFORE resists, and BEFORE damage is capped, that's how over 50% crits are possible for non-berzerker classes, the ammount of melee resists you have is the chance that the zerker max crits on you when they crit, isn't that nice?
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{old}Navneimu-Furystick
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Another Monkey Wrench towards zerker damage
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In reality a zerk would be so overcome with their rage they wouldn't be able to style OR defend themselves. This change will never happen but it's what would happen if you got 2.5x to 3x your strength from ANGER ALONE! *See being posessed by the God of Rage* A berserker would be more hindered from their ability and it wouldn't be something they could trigger. Just FYI
Why don't they just stop dicking around and put in the rocket launchers? 
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Rican_Perc
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Of course they defend it. See, classes like the Healer benefit greatly from zerker damage by gaining them more realm points. Thus they have a vested interest in keeping zerkers in their current, Rambo killing state. (Really don't care how rare a 1000 damage hit is, it should NEVER, EVER happen from a one handed weapon swinging every 2.5 seconds on a TANK class with MAX melee resists. Even 700 is absurd.)
I mean, I look at mid groups these days, and I notice that a lot of them seem to have at least 3 berserkers in them. This makes me ponder to myself. I say, self, why are there so many berserkers these days? What great, divine force beckons to people at the character creation screen and makes them think berserker?
No doubt, it's some long, deep connection to viking mythology that drives them to their calling.
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Faeyd_Meadowmist
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Subject:
Another Monkey Wrench towards zerker damage
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If you can smell a zerkers breath, someone has not done their CC correctly. Easiest class in the game to see coming and contain. They only get one purge so lead with root I would.
Also, ever seen a spear/shield hybrid have a problem with zerks? I haven't. Slam, spear, spear, slam, spear, dead.
We get hung up on zerker damage too much (I did this for months until regular strategy use took them completely out the game). Some of them who run into very regular, serious Hib RvR groups in particular know ratmode = death sentence... for the zerk. Unfortunately it's a fact of game design that one of the worst classes to try and take a zerk on with is a spearo... you HAVE to go toe to toe and you do it with big minuses in the armour department and a big, fat slow (pretty useless in modern PBT RvR) spear. Get a shield, hybrid spec and go zerker slaying... they seem to enjoy RvR much more. It's not like there is only ONE type of melee who can take em out either, there are *wardens* on Guin who murder zerks in duels (not me, too lazy to end-kite and twist - zerks kick snot out of me in ratmode but I know *how* to negate rat if I was so inclined and duelled at all). They just aren't as tough as we all think they are.
Hrm... I think I am going to lose my Hibernia Membership Card over this response 
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Brudan_Nightskye
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Another Monkey Wrench towards zerker damage
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I think they just like playing wanton murderers.
(I admit it, I detest berserkers with all my being.)
Edit for Faeyd: No such thing as chain-slamming. You know this, aye?
Berserkers get 4-point Purge and Determination. There is no reason for any zerker RR2 and over not to have Purge. 30-minute timer, yeah, but he'll need it at most twice in that 30 minutes, on an average day of serial killing.
Also, CC presumes having good circumstances for it. Most fights are just plain too hectic for good anti-zerker CC (for Albs at least, lacking any reliable insta CC besides minstrel stun).
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Vector-
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Another Monkey Wrench towards zerker damage
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<<Slam, spear, spear, slam, spear, dead>>
gee, when did you stop playing? 8 months ago?
ever heard of immunity timers?
and as an alb, I'd like to ask:
what's CC?
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Garduf
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Another Monkey Wrench towards zerker damage
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immunity timers were around at least a year ago, cause they were around before i left for like 8 months 
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Setala
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Sanger_BlessedFlight
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Why do you post this?
What could your motivation possibly be?
I'm sorry if you had a bad day.
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Rican_Perc
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Another Monkey Wrench towards zerker damage
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Perhaps he was looking for some amusement from mids fumbling to attempt to defend the situation in question.
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Brudan_Nightskye
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Another Monkey Wrench towards zerker damage
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Sanger: "Why do you post this?"
Jealousy maybe?
As in, what's the point of being a 'tank' if you get three-shotted by another tank? It's no fun being that blatantly inferior.
Look, many people play the game for a challenge, right? Most people like playing fair and winning against others using your wits and the tools of your class. Getting three-shotted in nine seconds or less, despite all your best efforts, is just plain no fun.
Before a caster comes and says, 'That happens to me all the time', the point of being a -tank- is to take the hits. And if there is something out there that can decimate you no matter how hard you try, where is the fun in that? What use is there in being a tank if all the time you've invested in strengthening your defense is ultimately proven worthless?
Right now, the best defense against a zerker is to run. (Not that that's much of an option anymore, with castable end regen.) What kind of warrior would I be then?
Yes, I am speaking from very personal experience here. I have 50+14 shield spec, MoBlock 2, 20+14 parry, MoParry 1, and top-notch resists and equipment. Yet when standing before a zerker I still can die as easily as a caster.
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Garduf
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Subject:
Another Monkey Wrench towards zerker damage
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what i always find amusing is about 75-90% of hibs are more than willing to admit mana/light chanters are overpowered. Yet almost every mid defends zerkers, even though on average zerkers do more damage, have better armor, more HP, IP, etc.
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Setala
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Staghorn_Moonlancer
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Another Monkey Wrench towards zerker damage
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Vector= Are you serious? If so, I would like to see some documentation on this. It makes no sense to max slash resists if it means you get hit for MORE damage.
Faed= I AM a hybrid spear hero (39 parry 42 shield 50 CS) and I know better than most how to use slam to my advantage. You are right, gerbil does make it easier to successfully get slam off, but you do not seem to take into consideration many aspects of rvr'ing. If we get hit from behind and they gerbil, there is little time to pull out my shield and stun them. Or if we get CC'ed (and purge is down) they can gerbil, find a nice spot then take a hit on me that, as you can see above, very well could take me down if I had been hit a bit before. Also note that the 42 shield slam stun only lasts 9 seconds (disregarding the fact that every zerker and his mother has purge), and no doubt I can get one or two, maybe three hits in on the zerker, but when he comes to, he can still mop the floor with me, especially if he has a healer nearby nullifying my attacks.
In a 1 on 1 duel, sure, zerkers are less formidable and it isn’t that hard to defeat them. But real realm warfare is not as idyllic as that, Faed. A previous poster is more correct; mids these days do indeed carry three or more zerkers with them (in the fight I posted above, Lanalee had 3 zerkers with her group). This leaves me, a tank, with few choices:
A) Ignore the tanks as they rush forward and kill their mages and healers, which is what I normally do. However this leaves me quite open to be slain in under a second while I chase around their healer, and also, I cannot stun a zerker while chasing a healer.
B) Attack the zerkers. Stun, whip out my spear and rule them. Sadly, their healers spam heal while their mages nuke the hell out of me and, as soon as stun wears off, me = dead. If I stun and melee a zerker, their healers keep him alive. If I stun and kill the healer, you will see results similar to the screenshot I posted above.
Midgard has an unfair advantage when it comes to 8 vs. 8 whereas normally, if a tank takes out a group's healers and casters ignoring the tanks, that group has no healers or casters and is thus left with easily defeat able melee classes, yet with Midgard, if you take our their healers and mages they still have melee classes who can deal out mage damage as well as wearing much better armor than mages. That is of course if you can reach their mages and healers in time before being swarmed by animated balls of fir.
Fighting a Midgard gank group that has 3 zerkers in it (or even 2 for that matter) leaves a tank with few choices in order to respond. The point of taking out the casters is to intercept them so they cant cast and take them down quickly so they do not nuke your group to death, but with zerkers, you basically have an insane caster that cannot be interrupted besides stun and has much better AF than any robe-wearing caster.
Regardless, this is not a post on realm warfare skill, or what to do to keep a zerker from hitting. This post is putting on display what happens when zerkers actually hit, which they are supposed to, and demonstrating how broken their damage tables are. It doesnt matter if I stun and kill the zerker; he still has the ability (and excercizes this ability quite often) to deal out mage equivalent + crit damage through a one-hand slash weapon, and this should not be.
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Staghorn_Moonlancer
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Another Monkey Wrench towards zerker damage
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And Sanger, my point for posting this is to demonstrate what many people have been complaining about with actual evidence instead of hearsay. Instead of saying, "I got hit for 1082!" and having a zerker say, "where is the SS? Prove it!" I have now given evidence that zerkers hit for this much when they shouldn't and so far mid responce has been, "...dhur, I ownz u"
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Brudan_Nightskye
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Staghorn's lengthy above post nailed the issue perfectly.
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Zxae_Sorrow
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Subject:
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Zerk's hit for that because Blademaster's can spec shield !!!
**Had to say it, no-one had yet.. and Galroth has yet to come along **
As a 6L4 Mage in MP Cloth fully SC'd with 48 + 15 Manna.. to keep things fair and all, shouldn't my PbAe be able to hit for that much?? Hell I can't do damage when being hit (Unlike tanks) but I still need to be sitting on the targets head to do my max damage (Like tanks). And HELL !! I mean they give up *some* defense in Vendo.. Hey I wear cloth.. with no Shield.. no Evade.. my staff can't parry for some reason... yet I can't do that damage?
No, I shouldn't be able to do that kind of damage... and Neither should Zerks or anyone freakin else at the speed at which they swing.
The chance to do the kind of damage they *can* and have demonstrated repeatedly that they *do* should not occur, especially at the speed they do it. With Vendo on a 7 min Timer to top it off. Thats the bottomline of all this zerk crap.
No-one should be one shotted, and Heavy Tanks should *NOT* be two shotted, by anyone.
And to those Mids that say well, I don't use Vendo.. its actually worse for me.. then why is it the most pre-dominat Mid Gank squads not only have 3 - 4 Zerk's per team and they all hit Bear Form just as they reach you half the time??
They all repeatedly have spasms and flinch and accidently hit Vendo *every* single encounter they have?
**waits for some moron to yell "We are the Mellee Realm!!..".. Well bucko I'm in the caster realm (Mellee/Caster Realm is BS) and with the most damaging spell type in the game, which revolves around me sitting on a Mellee's head while casting, doesn't come *close* to doing that kind of damage.**
Wait.. wait.. thats right.. another excuse is " You're Unique RA's are Better then ours!!!" Agreed. They are, but thats a completely different issue.
[Edit: **what i always find amusing is about 75-90% of hibs are more than willing to admit mana/light chanters are overpowered. Yet almost every mid defends zerkers, even though on average zerkers do more damage, have better armor, more HP, IP, etc.**
Yeah, funny that.]
[
** I'm sorry.... are you complaining because a R7L3 Zerker got some good Crits on you and kicked yer R4L9 behind?
Try getting some MP AF102 Spellcrafted Gear and see if that changes anything. Maybe a few million more RP's would help too.**
Ohh !! So now Realm Rank is the issue. Ok, I’ll play you’re game, I’m a 6L4 mage in MP/Sc’d Cloth with 27 Effective Slash Resist and a C*something* Rank 3 Zerk (Sorry, name wasn’t my biggest concern) Hit me with her axe for 1071 a week ago.
Top End Gear… 3 Realm Ranks above the Zerk (using you’re RR logic)…. But that didn’t matter.. it all gets negated when Vendo comes along, huh?
** She whupped ya good, right now our zerkers are one of the few things keeping Midgard competitive. **
Yeah, wouldn’t it be such a bitch to have to use other classes instead of Zerk’s in every group??
*** Guarantee she had end regen or you would have watched that damage drop drastically ***
Ohh yeah, you’re right… lucky she had end regen.. whew!! Mids never have end regen right?? Hibs always have it… I mean…. Look at all the RvR active Bards !!!
**So chalk one up for the good guys, and sorry you gotta pick dirt out from between yer teeth. **
Good Guys? Well that’s your own perspective isn’t it?]
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Zxae Sorrow - Aion
Elyos Sorceror of Lumiel
Formerly of AoC & DaoC
~ I still miss you Battlar!~
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Sanger_BlessedFlight
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Staghorn, it's been done before, often, and as in your SS people use RR6+ zerkers who have been buffed to the gills as examples.
Which makes me wonder why...again.
Rican, I do admit the war stories of people being hit for TREEEEE MILUN DAMUG is why I keep returning to the thread, so maybe the amusement goes both ways.
Brudan, what's the point of being a tank if you get three shotted by a caster?
Instant horrible death happens, not all the time, but it happens.
Hibernia has PBAE, Mid has Zerkers. Wow, horrible death from a caster in Hibernia, horrible death from a melee in Midgard. Almost kinda fits.
Before someone says that Zerkers are more common than dirt, the ones that do that type of damage AREN'T. They're fully aug buffed, endregen4 zerkers with a crapload of RA points.
You're complaining about a zerker in a constructed ganksquad, kinda like how some Hib ganksquads are built around pbae, and alb ganksquads are based around two clerics with BoF.
Zerkers won't get nerfed until Mythic gives Midgard something else as compensation. Because they're what we got to keep us competitive.
Zxae, had a PBAEr do 600 800 600 to me, the 800 was a crit, I'm sure. Maybe yer doing something wrong?
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Rican_Perc
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Dear god, no, please don't let Galroth into this thread. He'll bring up some statistics from 8 months ago about blademasters hitting for 5 times less damage than berserkers and throw in a comment about triple wield having no defensive penalty and CD not having to be specced to 50 and call it balanced.
*sprays Galroth-B-gone on the thread*
(Just poking a bit of fun actually. So Galroth, what say you about this?)
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Olorin_DAoC
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http://www.camelotherald.com/chardisplay.php?s=Guinevere&c=83424
This is Faeyd Meadowmist.
http://www.camelotherald.com/guilds/guild.php?s=Guinevere&g=1545
This is the guild Faeyd fights. They have much respect for Faeyd and his crew and their skills as a group. In fact go look at this weeks Against the Odds for Guinevere. Notice a trend? The top 7 guilds are zerker/savage squads.
While not trying to justify the damage that the zerker did because they obviously got huge crits on you, let me tell you what you did wrong. First, you did not protect your bard and druid. Like the good little deer boy you went straight for the healer. While you had tunnel vision on your healer the bard and the rest of your group that was partially afk got mezed and the bard died first. No more end regen for you. Then your casters died then your druid died. Finally while you are STILL trying to catch this healer, who mezed you and his job ended the first 5 seconds of the fight while most likely ignoring the Aug/Mend healer that was keeping him alive, the zerkers catch up to you and use thier most damaging styles on you in your back since you are ruthlessly after their healer whom you never will catch.
Sound about right for your typical encounter with a midgard group? I know this because this is me.
http://www.camelotherald.com/chardisplay.php?s=Guinevere&c=23305
The typcial group make up for hibs puts you at a disadvantage for fighting mids. The typical methods and mentality of your naturalists puts you at an even greater disadvantage. Serious thought has to be put into fighting these sorts of oponents because they are in every way shape and form designed to take you out. Caster heavy hib groups are especially lunch for them. The uber l337 chanters of Hib have nothing in small group combat on a zerker with good buffs and good resists. You are only as good as your support and how well you protect it.
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Rican_Perc
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Why do people keep bringing up realm points? The only realm ability a berserker can purchase to increase their damage is dualists reflexes. There is mastery of pain also, but since damage on the mainhand while in zerk mode is the issue, none of these abilities have any effect whatsoever on the situation.
Why do people think like this: realm points = win? That's rubbish, especially when there are no inherent abilities a berserker can get to increase their most insane damage. You only need to be R3L1 to have IP and purge, so I really think we can do away with the "it's only RR8+ zerkers" idea.
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Garduf
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"Hibernia has PBAE, Mid has Zerkers. Wow, horrible death from a caster in Hibernia, horrible death from a melee in Midgard. Almost kinda fits. "
uhhhh mid actually has the strongest PBAOE AND has aoe stun in two forms...
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Zxae_Sorrow
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That's amusing Sanger.
**Zxae, had a PBAEr do 600 800 600 to me, the 800 was a crit, I'm sure. Maybe yer doing something wrong? **
800 was definately a crit.
Why in gods name were you standing there letting the PbAe's sit inside you and cast? Hell, interupting him would of been hard.. sneeze is his general direction.
What is you're energy resists?
Yes, I can hit that hard if I come accross an AFK group.. jump inside them.. hope they have low energy resists.. and then pbAe!!
I Don't care how good the PbAe'er is.. unlike zerker's /stick, Vendo, Spam Doublefrost..
A Mage however, can't /stick, Spam PbAe and cast while someone's running away from them.
Also.. Sanger.. yes Hib has PbAe, due to those being the only decent Spell Lines for the invidual classes. Did you know!! Mid has the strongest PbAe in the game??
Ohh, and you have AoE stun..
[Edit: Maybe Sanger, if Zerk's weren't SOO damn dominant at what they do, Zerk's wouldn't be the main class used in gank groups and Mid would have a chance to learn how to use its other classes to its advantage?
/sarcasm on
Yeah, Zerk's are the only class keeping Mid competitive. All you're other classes are gimps, none at all have been rated by Alb, Hib and Mid alike as being alot better then there respective counterparts.
Its not like you have the caster with the most complete spell lines? Or the best PbAe in the game? Or AoE stun? HTH Savages are such gimps arn't they? Warriors are so useless? Or the most useful End regen? And so on..
/sarcasm off.
Sorry, I cannot find and have yet to see a reasonable arguement that defends the excessive high damage Beserker's have a chance to do. As such, I do not see how anyone can say, with a straight face that is ok for any class to be able to 1/2/3 Shot othe realms heavey tanks, or 1 shot anyone for that matter.
**shrugs** I'm done, keep sending in Logs of the damage Beserker's have and can do, at the speeds they do it and maybe one day we'll see a damage cap, left axe nerf, or whatever. ]
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{old}SacredSecret
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I got nuked for 750 and then 500 today, wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.. I have nearly maxxed resists and AOM 2... waaaahhh.. She only had 75k realm points! And I was not debuffed!!
Whoops.. Back on topic...
Sorry about that, but I wanted to get my complaint in for the day..
EDIT-
That THERE was for the people that are telling him to get more ARE PEEZ
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Cydris
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omg chel you noob. make your own whine thread.
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Brudan_Nightskye
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These arguments always seem to go 'round and 'round . . . It seems to me what I'm about to type I've already stated in the last couple days, but since I can't find my old post to cut-and-paste, I'll just reproduce it here.
Zxae already mentioned it. But here it is:
A zerker = caster damage on a tank class.
A caster = well, a caster.
That is, the zerker does his damage on the move (he does not have to stand still), and is uninterruptible (not counting CC, which interrupts casters too). /stick, doublefrost, doublefrost, doublefrost, vendo if you aren't killing as fast as you like. That, AND the zerker has bucketloads of hit points, being on the main tank HP table. The armor isn't the best, but the HPs make up for that, and the armor is definitely better than a caster's.
The -only- advantage a caster has over a zerker when it comes to damage is the ability to do it at range.
In every other way, a zerker is superior. Damage is the same, and a zerker can do it on the move, while taking damage, and stand a lot longer while doing it. Heck, when it comes to damage, Midgard might as well not even have any casters at all.
Other classes can deal incredible damage in melee, but that is counterbalanced by disadvantages. Assassins' damage is entirely dependant on circumstance, and they can't take hits. Heavy tanks can deal massive blows, but do it very, very slowly. Zerkers on the other hand are capable of dealing incredible damage all the time, with hardly any effort, and with none of the disadvantages of casters. In fact, with hardly any disadvantages at all.
For that matter, when it comes to sheer melee efficiency in a group, why roll anything other than a zerker? To me, the fact that a single class can dominate to such an extent is the sign of imbalance.
And now I will go to bed.
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Aramathea
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Just to put in my two cents, zerker damage dont bother me any as a cloth wearer. Sure they hit hard, but I have hit some classes for almost 2k damage with pbae before (with crit of course). Granted i dont hit tanks like that, but should i be able too? <shrugs>
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Garduf
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"Sure they hit hard, but I have hit some classes for almost 2k damage with pbae before (with crit of course). Granted i dont hit tanks like that, but should i be able too? <shrugs> "
please lie more, even with MoM 5 and a max crit in RvR its not possible to hit anywhere near 2k.
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Zxae_Sorrow
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**I got nuked for 750 and then 500 today, wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.. I have nearly maxxed resists and AOM 2... waaaahhh.. She only had 75k realm points! And I was not debuffed!!
Whoops.. Back on topic...
Sorry about that, but I wanted to get my complaint in for the day.. **
Was it PbAe? If you have the super resists + AoM you say, and you and the caster are the same level and you were not de-buffed, the only possible spell is PbAe. If it wasn't Pbae, then I'd sure like to shake this caster's hand.
If it was PbAe... Once again.. Why did you just stand in the center of it while they were casting? Interupting don't take much, unless they are MoC'ing.... Then just back out of the PbAe field until 14 seconds is up.
**Just to put in my two cents, zerker damage dont bother me any as a cloth wearer. Sure they hit hard, but I have hit some classes for almost 2k damage with pbae before (with crit of course). Granted i dont hit tanks like that, but should i be able too? <shrugs>**
Bullshit, if you and the recipient of the PbAe are both lvl 50, there is no way you’ll hit anyone for almost 2k, even with a perfect RvR crit and if they have NO resists to Cold/Spirit/Energy depending on you’re PbAe.
Let’s see…. 48 + 15 Manna, Wp 2, Rank 6 – I hit a level 1 mob for my cap of 1007.
Now pretend that I just stood on a level 1 player and hit for my cap… then got a PERFECT RvR crit.
1007 + 503 = 1510.
(My average on a level 50 player with 0 Resists, and no AoM is 750 or so I believe)
Now that’s not even near 2 k damage and that’s the BEST I could do against a level 1 player, please explain how you did nearly 2K to assuming a equal level player that has resists, and possibly resist buffs and maybe AoM?
My PbAe’s average does 350-600 depending on the certain targets, resists, RA’s, buffs etc.
So please explain how you could nearly hit 2k damage, I’m rather curious. If you really **did** do that on a equal con lvl 50, that has decent gear then my apologies.
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Staghorn_Moonlancer
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Sanger: Wonder why, scratch your head and move on. I’m sure you can contain your amusement, right?
Olorin: You are resting on quite a few assumptions, such as the type of battle it was and the circumstances of it. You assume that I was in a caster heavy group during that fight, but if you would pay attention you could see exactly who was in my group at the time:
One enchanter, 2 heroes, 2 druids, 1 bard 1 warden and 1 blademaster
You then played out a scene in your head that was completely incorrect as to what actually happened. I was mezzed, but I purged it and thus it was nullified. I got off many good attacks on the healer before I ran out of endurance, because my bard had died. So what if I had protected my bard?
I would have been able to stun one attacker and then use my spear on him while the other 2 bezerkers killed the bard, as the healer healed the whole time.
I dont think I like this scenario any better than what actually happened. Try and bitch about how we used poor tactics or we did this wrong or we did that wrong but frankly, being not there during the fight, you have no idea what did happen and also, what I did do was not the "incorrect" way of doing it. At least I kept the healer from healing the entire fight, but as you can see, it meant little.
It just plain boils down to bezerker damage, which is inexcusable. You will see 2 attacks for 700+ one for 900+ and one for 1000+ I fail to believe that all four attacks were critical attacks and even if they were they should not be that high. I could possibly accept a critical attack of 700+ once in a while, but not every time I come in contact with a gerbil. Some make it seem that this sort of damage is rare and only the uber d00dz can do it (and even so, no one, not even these d00dz should have the ability to do so). But I am here to inform you that this is not rare, indeed, it is very frequent for every time I come in contact with a bezerker, regardless of realm rank I get hit harder than any 1h slash user should be able to attack. If you want me to post every bloody screenshot of every encounter I have stored on my hard drive, I will. Maybe that will shut your ignorance (directed at no one in particular, )
Lastly, I am not here to talk about battle tactics and whatnot; this thread is about zerker damage and even if lanalee's attacks were from behind and using back styles (which they weren’t, mind you) this damage is inexcusable.
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{old}LastRegrets
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zerker issues aside, you might want to try a RA respec, staggy.
if you're so worried about zerk damage, drop your ip (and fa), which is only circumstatially useful and pick up avoid pain. not as if you don't already get a free self-heal...i don't even get that luxury. it's essentially a mini bunker that you can carry in your pocket on a 15 minute timer.
right now, i have avoid pain 2 and let me tell you, zerks do laughable damage for a full minute with that RA running. the utility and the ability to use it OFTEN (15 min is absolutely nothing) outweigh the high cost (aug con 3 as prereq) of the ability.
granted, you will get hit for slightly more by an axe zerk due to scale resists and slightly less from hammer zerks, also due to scale, but i'm sure you get the picture.
another point...if you're serious about RVR, i'm sure you already carry around the 75af alchemy buff charges (i have them in the form of MP woolen gloves), so that's even more damage potentially taken away (hib and mid af buffs from seer/naturalist classes won't be much help...af charges are essentially our way of leveling the playing field with albs, who have a speccable af buff). if you don't, get some now, they're quite helpful. if you don't want to, you really don't have any right to complain about zerks, as complaining about damage dealt automatically places you in the min-max game of RVR.
anyway, sorry to sidetrack the thread, but those are two things that you can do other than whine to counter zerk-like melee damage right now.
EDIT: nevermind, sorry...looks like she really did just spam doublefrost, unless bleed damage gets calculated with DA damage.
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Acrimonious-Exnihilo
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Lanalae was hitting me for 700+ the other night at the Dun Crauchon siege without being berserked. She hit me for over 700 on four out of 12 hits, none of them berserked. I wasn't the only one she was hitting either, she hit and killed, four other people standing where I was.
(and all through the inner door of crauchon when we were standing a full siege rams length away from the door, but that's beside the point)
To dismiss her damage because of her realm rank is irrelevant. Realm rank does not account for that damage, nor is it a valid argument when determining class balance. (If it was, rogues and casters would have ignore pain, and archers would have mastery of concentration)
To dismiss her damage because she was obviously buffed is also a moot point. With the massive use of buff-bots as well as most groups being buffed to the hilt in RvR, it is to be EXPECTED that you AND your enemies have these kind of buffs.
Lastly, to cite her damage as being acceptable because of the huge endurance cost associated with her styles WOULD be acceptable, if midgard didn't have a 10 minute duration non concentration cost end regen spell available to them.
End regen for midgard coompletely unbalanced berserkers and shadowblades, and now the only way to fix it is to reduce left axe damage, and re-evaluate critical hit calculations. (or remove the end regen from the realm, but that won't balance zerkers on gaheris or the 'dreds, now will it?)
In short, there is no legitimate and reasonable argument for the class, or the style line to be doing that sort of damage.
As for the comment about mana enchanters being overpowered:
-When compared to all of the other non-SI casters in the game I agree, they are overpowered. Compared to melees and archers, I disagree. They're what all casters should be capable of in my opinion: all damage, no defense.
On to the topic of resists:
Staghorn has 28% slash resists, and his armor has -10% slash resists. This is a net of 18% slash resists. Staghorn can't get any better resists. Staghorn's armor is epic armor. That is 100% quality AF100. I am sorry, but having AF102 armor all the way around at the same quality will not reduce his damage by more than 2% or so, even with RR5.
That healer has 19% thrust resists by calculating from the damage messages. Note that this is AFTER his armor takes the 10% penalty mid chain has to thrust. So, Gramse does NOT need to work on his thrust resists, as they are already at 29%, which would be capped for his race.
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{old}SacredSecret
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Acri-
"all damage, no defense. "
I understand that, and I was just being silly.
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Halenn
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That, my friends, happens to my Thane all the time. Just we are middys, so we arn`t supposed to cry like this cos we get flamed to hell and back if we do!
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Skeggjold
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I've given up on these threads, they are so sad. From now on I will just taunt with this image.
Level 50 cleric <3:
http://users.rcn.com/ckiepert/DAOC/SS/new/skegg.jpg
Note the lefthand weapon: Cleaver 4.0 speed  .
Thats <3 right there. Not that pansy WBA or handaxe in the offhand. I gimp myself just to be fair to the players of percival!!!!!
P.S. : Thats with less than 1700 weaponskill, so much for that idea.
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{old}Spinlock_
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Nerf Stag!
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{old}SacredSecret
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<3 and in a post........
<presses her hand on Skeggie's forehead>
Yah.. Definatly a fever.
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HinuraRizingsun
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just fer Skeggles
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grarl
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LOOK AT THAT DAMAGE!!!
(sorry it's been a while since I've seen that sentence)
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{old}Adrydana
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NEWSFLASH: scale is VULNERABLE to slash... hello..? how long have you been playing? 28% slash resists means dick with scale
edit: "in the fight I posted above, Lanalee had 3 zerkers with her group). "
i dun think so, i run with her every day. we have never had over 3 zerkers. some times only 2.
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Irianae
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'sometimes only two'
Hehehe, only two. Does anyone play a warrior anymore? I meant really play them, like out in RvR and stuff...
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Staghorn_Moonlancer
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Adri, do you join her in the mornings? That is when I meet up with her and unless you want to call me a liar, she runs with three zerkers, at least, all the times I have met up with her.
Even so this does not account for the broken damage dealt by 1 zerker alone.
Last, I was told that avoid pain really wasn’t worth it. I am curious now as to its use. Do you happen to have any chatlogs or ss's of a comparison between damage taken before and after you cast avoid pain? I am greatly interested. That aside, I should not have to spec in aug con 3 and avoid pain simply to live through an encounter with a zerker.
/sarcasm on
No really? Cuz see, being the hero that I am who has been living in scale since he turned 15, I never knew that scale was susceptible to slash...
/sarcasm off
Regardless of scale being susceptible to slash, with my capped resists I would still have +18 slash resists and no one should be able to hit me for that much, even if I had 0 slash resists. The ten percent penalty to slash does not account for the insane 1h slash damage that bezerkers deal.
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Z_Demigawd
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I've got schvilkis in my genecticazoinks.
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Sorynn
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"Zerkers are finding out how stats effect thier damage. Namely quickness. They will keep quickness as low as possible it makes thier damage go way up.
Even with my shadowblade, I find that I can solo a hib tank and have about 1 in 3 chances of winning, even when I'm unbuffed."
Sounds like something is wrong with that. Perhaps it is just me, but I loose to any realm rank 3.1 tank or higher unless kiting them.
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Bollark
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The idiots relying on the "scale is vulnerable" defense do NOT even comprehend that it SIMPLY means a -10%.
THAT'S IT.
So at 28% capped resist, you STILL end up with 18 percent resistance.
GET IT?
The lame excuses I read for that damage all the time just simply make me nauseous.
I have been hit in 1 round from a RR 3 zerk for over 1k HPS. I am maxed..I mean in every aspect of resists.
HPS..CON..everything for my class is maxed and I end up about 2080 with decent druid buffs. I do not have aug con 2 or toughness but even figuring those in, I MIGHT get 2350. I doubt it even would get that high with reasonable points expenditure.
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{old}Adrydana
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ever noticed that violet zerker in her group? that would be me. and yes, im calling you a liar because im 99% of the time with her. you exxagarate too much. and if you know that scale is vuln to slash, then you should know that your posts has about same substanse as a lvl 41 with 0 slash resist has by posting things like that
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Raix_DAOC
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So what if a group runs with 2-3 zerkers, we dont come complaining when a group of hibs has 5 MoC chanters... now do we?
/dismiss
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NYN-X
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Wow, I had noticed that zerk hitting me for damage like that every time she hit me, but I assumed it was becuase I was only 45-49... However, Wow, that, on a 50 hero, with 28% slash resist (18% effective)... I wish my zerk could hit like that. How the hell does she do that? RR7 doesn't make that much of an enormous difference from RR5 in terms of damage, unless you load up on tons of passive RAs
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{old}Adrydana
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go Raix!
/hug
/kiss
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Bollark
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You know I am kinda hard on my own grammar in posts but then I read what some other folks write and I just shake my head.
I understand that complex sentence structure may be tough to deal with so can we just start with capitalization of the first word in a sentence?
kthxbye!
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Evendale_StarFire
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"Lastly, I am not here to talk about battle tactics and whatnot; this thread is about zerker damage and even if lanalee's attacks were from behind and using back styles (which they weren’t, mind you) this damage is inexcusable."
For the record, the attacks used were from behind, using snowsquall and icy brilliance, and I was in Vendo form. In vendo form, all hits are crits, every hit there was a critical.
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Faeyd_Meadowmist
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Staghorn you make good points after my post regarding situational RvR but pretty much describe 'getting jumped' by Mids... 'getting jumped' by anyone should end in your death given relatively similar RR's and experience. I'll defer to more experienced shield users that you can only land one slam per minute per target... feels like I get slammed more than that but I would being the slammee rather than the slammer
<waves at Olo> Hiya mate Heard you were over here in some form or other
I am not trying *justify* zerk damage relative to anyone else BUT as Olo describes our team fought Mids 90% of the time and there is only one group we cannot defeat (well we did once but that is just a happy memory now). ALL other groups (which USUALLY include 2-3 zerks are MEAT). The reason why Rel Por are powerful is in their support functionality... incredible healers, twitch-speed nearsighters and non-stop RvR experience as one unit. The reason why we used to roll the other ideal Mid gank groups was in containment of zerkers and I have described our strategy. Assuming you don't get jumped (and hence die quite rightly so)... AE root the lot, purges go up, land your mezz... you MAY be CC'd in between by their healers but I can't stress enough how you need two GP druids and personal purge to be CC immune and successful these days. The zerks are coming for your bard 100% of the time if they are smart so have a shield on him.. don't charge their healers, shoot them from afar. For maximum fun ensure you have at least 4 pets in the group (two light ments with 50+ pets and two GP druids with grey interrupt pets)... healers can't heal anyone then.
We can now counter what I've suggested with a suitable strategy based on theory but it just doesn't happen in practice. They want to kill you with their zerks... that's HOW they kill you... don't let em get anywhere near you. The worst thing you can do (and this is where polearms folks sometimes get their Alb gank groups killed fast) is charge.
The draw of the heavy damage weapon is strong I know (especially when you see what a zerk can do) and it works in PvE but it doesn't work in RvR... it's too slow and 'forces' the owner of the weapon to run at the enemy leaving you all dead at the rear. Having said that, Defender's Rage has torn a new hole in my helmet a few times, I've also done the Benny Hill-esque run around like a headless chicken with zerkers all over me cos the mezz never stuck or we CC'd in the wrong order, but it's so rare, I just ignore polearms guys... as I would ignore spearos who are probably bouncing off the RM's 6s PBT anyway if I were a Mid... and zerks... I just watch the bard - 'cos they are going for him/her, stop em mid charge and murder their support crew.
Sounds easy, it's isn't by a long shot for about 2 months... THEN it gets easy. As I say, I have BEEN on the nerf zerks bandwagon because on the face of it they look completely out of whack with everything else... but they aren't... they are easily overcome.
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Luryn
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I think the problem with beserker is the low Qui = Huge front loaded damage output. When a dual wielding class easily out-damage a 2-handed pure tank in front load damage, there is something wrong. I have yet to see a 2-handed pure tank do over 1000 damage in front loaded damage on a daily basis.
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Castyn
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"All your RPs are belong to us!"
Adrydana, I think that about sums you up. Yes scale is vulnerable to slash, thats an effective 15% loss to slash resist, so 28% would still theoretically be around 13%, which is still NOT NEGATIVE. NARF ME DO MATH!
Could you do me a favorite, press delete when you log in, type yes, and go to a server where you can name yourself UBERRPFARMEROFDOOM or whatever it is that gets that tiny dick of yours all excited.
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{old}Adrydana
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that sounds all nice a dandy Faeyd, but why should i purge an AE CC that lasts no longer than 10 secs with Det 3+ resists? no form of AE CC lasts longer than 15 seconds on me. besides, being rooted means nothing since someone ALWAYS runs by me with dmg shield on ;-) besides, getting a group running with speed 5 + sprint towards you CCed before some of us at least reaches you is kinda hard. oh yeah, insta mez.. that icon flashes the sec is hits me, so that wont last long <shrugs>
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Kowyn
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<<So what if a group runs with 2-3 zerkers, we dont come complaining when a group of hibs has 5 MoC chanters... now do we?>>
This is the stupidest argument I've seen yet.
5 MoC Chanters = 70 total RA points
How much can 2-3 zerkers get for 70 RA points?
Zerkers will have around 2000 hitpoints, Ignore Pain, Purge, studded armor, evade 3, at least 2/3 parry.
Enchanters will have at the most 1000 hitpoints, and cloth armor.
Mastery of Concentration doesn't stop you from being killed. And seeing as they can't move to cast, it's fairly easy to avoid those high damage PBAE's. Based on the numbers we have all seen (but Mids deny), all 5 of those Chanters would die in 1 hit, 2 at the absolute most.
Zerkers do caster damage without sacrificing anything except the ability to do AE damage.
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Staghorn_Moonlancer
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Faed, zerkers get healed by healers unless the healers are preoccupied.
And I have a SS to show that I am not exagerating. So call me a liar if you want, I will call you one as well and be done with it, you violet clad hampster you. And if you havent learned by now that zerker damage is broken regardles of resists, realm rank and epic armor, well, i have a nice and happy stfu with your name on it
See you out there, hope i can shove my spear up your skirt.
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Bollark
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Weeee..
Why argue against them when they make the points so well themselves?
Go Adry!
<chuckles>
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Kynci
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Hey I still play a warrior! 
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{old}Adrydana
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faeyd, that was meant as a joke... jeeze
"So call me a liar if you want, I will call you one as well and be done with it, you violet clad hampster you"
ouch, you sure got me there. whatever shall i do! (sarcasm). ive run with her since we were both skiltvaktens, though with a 4 month break on my part. i think i at least KNOW what im talking about. cry more?
kowyn. i do 500-900 damage (roughly, ive never done 1k yet) every 3.3 seconds, chanters do about 500 each.. 2 seconds? thats 1k damage in about the time it takes me the same, overall enchanters do damage faster than i. do i whine about chnater PBAE? no, i dun recall doing so
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Castyn
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"do i whine about chnater PBAE?"
How do you get away from a chanter PBAE? How do you get away from a zerker?
The difference is the problem.
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Acrimonious-Exnihilo
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"So what if a group runs with 2-3 zerkers, we dont come complaining when a group of hibs has 5 MoC chanters... now do we?"
Right, that's because your 3 zerkers can all gerbil and one-two punch every chanter there in 6 seconds flat.
I've been on the receiving end of a 1024 mainhand followed by a 237 offhand before. Unless my druid is a nurture druid with the best battery heal AND lightning reflexes with the instaheal/group instaheal, I'm literally dead instantly. I've seen one berserker kill 3 casters before zerk wears off and AFTER being stunned. (purge/determ/resists take care of the only surefire method of controlling a gerbiled zerk out there)
Casters also can't ignore pain their damage away. Casters also don't run around with 2k+ hps (we cap out between 1300 and 1450 depending on race/realm).
I could go on, but you just wouldn't get the point, so I'll cut to the chase.
MOC DOES NOTHING IF YOU ARE DEAD IN ONE COMBAT ROUND.
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Mucklehoney
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Enchanters have less the half a Zerkers hitpoints and can easily be interrupted or avoided, have better armor and better overall defenses (Evade, Parry, ect).
I can run out of range before a PBAOE'er gets me - can't do that anymore with a Zerker.
Zerker's are light tanks doing Mage-like damage on a Good Day(tm) for the mage.
Something needs to be toned down, and I find it hard to believe people even argue about it.
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Acrimonious-Exnihilo
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Oh, and it should not require two group purges, individual purge, ignore pain, root, and mez, coordinated with twitch heals, twitch nearsights, and heavy pet damage, just to counteract one pac healer and 3 berserkers... but it does.
Justify that if you can. (and while you're at it remind me why midgard is the only realm with ae stun AND instant ae stun)
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Kowyn
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<<i do 500-900 damage (roughly, ive never done 1k yet) every 3.3 seconds, chanters do about 500 each.. 2 seconds? thats 1k damage in about the time it takes me the same, overall enchanters do damage faster than i. do i whine about chnater PBAE? no, i dun recall doing so >>
If the Zerker's average hit point total is 2000, with IP they can easily hit 4000 hps. For the sake of argument we'll say 3500 hps because nobody IP's at 0.
The Enchanter's average hit point total is probably around 750-1000.
If you hit for 500-900 every 3.3 seconds, how long on average does it take to kill an enchanter? 3.3-6.6 seconds.
If enchanters do 500 every 2 seconds (not including the added stun and debuff times), how long does it take for one to kill a zerker? 14 seconds.
Now I'm no math expert, so maybe someone can fill me in on which number is higher, 14 or 6?
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Coddyn
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That MoC PBAE argument is ridiculous.
The only realm that can effectively counter zerks with MoC PBAE is Albion, and that's because of BoF. Even then, as a cloth caster with capped melee resists zerkers hit me for 200-250 through BoF. Add Vendo to that and they can double it, and then add zerkers who assist and the PBAE will drop pretty quick.
Also, shield slam can easily shut down an MoC PBAE which lasts only 15 seconds, zerkers are around until they are dead and they hit hard Vendo'd or not.
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Shadivak_Perc
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What a bunch of stupid ass, fotm idiots you guys are. Must be nice to spam doublefrost and watch teh l33t RP's come in. I love your pathetic arguments.
Get some masterpiece armor! You're probably wearing crap! (nevermind, he does)
Scale is vulnerable to slash! (so that still means he has 18% resist, dumb ass)
Hibernia has pbae, so our zerkers do 1000+ damage! (what do spiritmasters have?)
OMG, u r only teh rank 5! She is teh l33t R7! Get some RP's n00b! (RP's don't affect damage, mmmmk)
Zerkers are all Midgard has! Nevermind our pure DD caster that will almost always have 10 second PBT. Nevermind spiritmasters! They can't do damage! Nerfed! Forget about warriors! Nevermind our healers and their abundance of abilities! Forget about AE stun! Zerkers are all we got! How about savages? Best tank class in the game right there. (idiots)
At least come up with some better excuses already you dumbass no skill fotms.
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Faeyd_Meadowmist
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<Holds hands up and shrugs>
Not going to convince you without showing you. However, I strayed way off point... you wanted to postulate that the damage in *that* screenshot is too much for the timespan in which it is delivered I believe. Well probably (comparatively to other melee classes), but that is probably due to the haste and celerity the zerk is working under rather than his fast left axe.
The last thing we want is for zerks to be nerfed *because they are difficult for most people to overcome* though... bring attention to BM's and Mercs and everyone wins. If your tactics revolve around fighting fire with fire you can then send in your zerker counterparts to do what they are doing to your team. I'm just uncomfortable with 'fire vs. fire' as a valid tactic for a tri-realm game. I prefer to put out fire with water myself, but I have the luxury of playing with a bunch of old farts who think about all this way too much
Thinking about it... I'd be fast to agree that a pickup Hib/Alb group is going ot have more problems than a pickup Mid group... MAYBE that is an indication that in 8 vs. 8 there is indeed an imbalance and it *probably* resides with very versatile healers and hard-hitting zerks. Yeah, I'd agree that *may* be showing us something but I would want to run a lot of testing round that.
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Netana
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It is incredibly stupid like fast berserkers businesses damage with how much damage that they can take. They clean much capacities as well as domination of the concentration as well as for example pain have and ignore. Berserkers never can justify rationally its damages edition or can argue that they become underpowered. You NEEDING berserkers, it only berserkers do not want to have such high damage. Midgard is easy mode and that it have blademaster obviously not tried if they to believe to win that it that additional damage NEEDING, and if they always so easily win, it is not probable the people that smart over out its spam of the double frost are! After berserkers nerfed becomes, each will be happy except Midgard, and Midgard can win would be allowed to recognize it quiet. Sometime we might "support joke everyone approximately berserker damage in the days" instead of sphenes.
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Kowyn
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I don't want Blademasters and Mercs doing Zerker damage. Having one class in the game like that is already overkill.
Zerkers, Blademasters and Mercenaries should do more damage than their primary tanks, and this includes spear/polearm users (over time of course). If a Merc is swinging both weapons and getting 300 total every 3 seconds, to a polearmer getting 500 every 6, then it's working right.
However right now we've seen hits from zerkers that double and in some cases triple the damage output of a typical Warrior 2h hit. It's unbalanced and it needs to be toned down.
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Netana
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>>Zerkers, Blademasters and Mercenaries should do more damage than their primary tanks, and this includes spear/polearm users (over time of course). If a Merc is swinging both weapons and getting 300 total every 3 seconds, to a polearmer getting 500 every 5, then it's working right. <<
You said more. 300/3=100. 500/5=100. They have the same damage over time. Your example needs to be redone? The mercenary isn't hitting any harder than the polearm.
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Kowyn
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Yea my bad, I meant polearms swinging every 6
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Seter
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oh boy this is going to be fun.
First off, to you mids, f%$k you all for even trying to defend zerkers and calling them the balancing of the realms.
To the gerbil if violet that called Stag a liar, got cheese on the taco? Bad day? PMS?
I am a lvl 50 hero. I wear pc armor. I have all my melee resists capped. I run with full buffs in the morning crew. I have 1722 weaponskill when I'm fully buffed and I'm R5L3. I wield an MP arcanite hooked spear, 16.5 dps, 5.0 spd, and an MP arcanite hooked spear. I have over 300 str fully buffed. All my stats are capped. I have 50+15 CS/50+15 Parry as my main skills.
I have NEVER NEVER NEVER hit a lvl 50 of ANY class for over 900 dmg. I am using the hardest hitting spears of Hibernia. There is nothing I can do that I know of to increase my dmg anymore. Getting MoP higher (it's at 2) won't increase my dmg, it just increases my chance to crit. I rarely ever hit lvl 50 casters for 700+, and if I do, I see no - next to my dmg which means it's partially their fault for not having any resists.
Yet a ss is posted of a hero similiar to me getting hit for 902, 747, 788, and 1037 in ONE fight by the SAME player that is a melee class, and you mids think this is all right?
Armsman using a slashing polearm hit me for 500+. I have no problem with that. I'm weak to slash, they usually kill me since thrust isn't all that great against plate. Do I cry? Nope. I have no problem with dying.
But ya know what most say about mid? They hate fighting you. Not because they don't like a challenge, but because you have a class that completely unbalances the battle field.
I have a blast going up against alb groups. Doesn't matter if they have BoF/SoS or whatever. I've been in 8 vs 8 battles with alb groups that have lasted upwards of 5 - 10 minutes. We've lost some, we've won some. But EVERY SINGLE ONE has been a blast.
Pure skill is involved.
Does this ever happen going against a mid group? Nope. You all have the cheesy 'tape down the doublefrost hot key and spam f8 until all enemies are dead'.
It doesn't matter if I go after healers, casters, zerkers, or whatever.
If I go after healers/casters, I get killed in 2 seconds because of the zerkers on my back.
If I try to protect my support, they get one shotted and then I get hacked up in 2 seconds by the zerkers.
If I go after the zerkers, they get healed and I get hacked up in 2 seconds.
If we get cc off, it's purged and our support is hacked up in 2 sec's before they can try more cc.
How does it feel to an I WIN button. All you mids bitch about BoF. Guess what, the only reason you hate it is because once, every 30 minutes, a group can take you out. Sucks to eat dirt doesn't it. (oh Sanger, /bird)
Alb and Hib are about 50/50 right now. I feel we are fairly balanced. Mid? You all can go suck an egg.
Playing a zerker requires ZERO skill. Because pretty much all mid groups have 2+ zerkers in them, playing a mid requires ZERO skill.
Yea, bring it on. What are you going to do, gerbil on me?
I don't usually lower myself to personal insults but you all have brought it on yourself. I put my zerker on the shelf because they AREN'T fair to play.
How do the rest of your realmmates that have spent the time lvl'ing up warriors and thanes feel. Are you happy that you wasted their time? Must suck to be one since the only tank anyone wants in an rvr group is a zerker. I really feel sorry for the poor players that worked hard to get to 50 only to be told 'you suck, we want a zerker'.
You zerkers have the nerf stick coming. When it hits, I'm going to farm you like there's no tomorrow.
I hope they nerf you zerkers to hell, give warriors a new unique weapon for mid like they should have and raise the warrior dmg cap some.
/rant off and waiting for the ban.
(It's worth it though)
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Staghorn_Moonlancer
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That doesnt sound too bad Kowyn, wish Mythic could hear that.
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VedaineIvyryder
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Boy this thread is amusing.
I remember when Lanalae was level 47 and 74k RPs and hit me from the front, nonvendo for 587 on 29% slash resist in Emain a while back.
Then Shayll hit me a couple of days ago with 29% (19% effective) resist for 787.
Adrydana, keep spitting out funny arguments. They're good for sitting here while I look for something to entertain myself. You get hit for 500 damage every 2 seconds by a PBAE chanter?
ono
u r 2 close 2 chantr so bck up or kill him n 2 hits k? thx
Sorry. <ahem> Trying to speak in their native tongue. Can be difficult sometimes, you know.
Oh, and Adry? Your little 'All your RPs are belong to us' thing in your sig, really really disgusts me. People like you are ruining any concept of roleplaying that is LEFT on this server, as well as disrupting a good, nond00dish playerbase.
How I wish you and your little FOTM friends had never come here.
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Tessuraea
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Hm. I don't think we've gotten "Midgard is the melee realm" yet, have we? Mostly variants on "cry more n00b," people trying to distract from the point at hand by pointing to other things.
Now... if the ONLY thing that can outdamage a zerker over time is a clothwearing class that **gives up the mage advantage of range**, can't anyone see there's a problem?
It's actually almost impossible for any ranged mage class to do 700-900 damage--at least not against a target with decent resists, and without a debuff.
<shakes her head> I'm not really sure I understand why so many of you in Midgard think it's okay to have a tank doing mage damage. Do not say the bit about them sacrificing defense for damage--they are not in cloth armor or on the mage hit point table. They can still kill you if you're attacking them. Basically, they get a great deal--heavy damage without having to be interrupted by breezes, and without dying in two hits.
Now, I'm a mage who does tank damage. My level 50 baseline nuke (best baseline around), with an effective half-spec, does less damage than the smallest mainhand crit shown, always. In fact, it often does half or less; 180 (-180) is something I see frequently enough to make me cry.
So... why are you defending berserkers? It just doesn't make sense. They do insane amounts of damage.
Is it that your current ability in RvR is based around groups with multiple berserkers and a single PAC healer? Are you afraid that if berserkers are toned down, you might need to rethink your strategies completely?
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Sennir
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If zerkers want to do this kind of melee damage, maybe we should just give in.
Let's all send emails to mythic telling them that we are fine with zerkers being able to do better damage than a typical pbae caster.
But we should request that they cannot move and fight, or fight back when they are under attack
Then all it would take is a single caster in melee to lock down a zerker...wouldn't that be funny
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Jarvssen
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And people were complaining about Smite Clerics before resists.
This damage was done AFTER resists?
Ohhh nothing wrong here, nothing to see here, move along...
<<rolls eyes>>
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Skeggjold
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Ahh, comeon Seter it requires very limited skill, but not zero.
Honestly, I am so sick of this "zerks exploit the system by dropping quickness blah blah blah" crap. My zerk has over 110 unbuffed quickness, yet you see the damage....
Dropping quickness to 40 or below adds minimal damage compared to a really NOTICEABLE drop in evade rate. Is 40 or 50 additional damage worth evade half as much? I don't think so.
P.S. I think zerks need a tone down, anyone who reads what I say knows that, but give it a rest guys, this is really starting to get ho hum.
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Seter
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Zerkers aren't exploiting the system since they are using the tools that Mythic gave them.
There are two things that piss me off with zerkers:
1. 95% of the Mids think they are fine and balanced.
2. Mythic has done jack about them.
I don't think alot of players would be as pissed if the Mids would at least come here and say 'yeah, that is out of hand' instead of actually trying to come up with arguments to defend it.
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Skeggjold
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It's funny, I do just that Seter.
However:
Jesus squeeze us if you guys aren't annoying as all hell. What do you expect mids to say? Just one day out of the blue, someone makes one of the hourly "zerks are overpowered" posts and all of midgard just has an epiphany? It's not going to happen guys. Go complain on the dev board, because no matter how much you try to pound it into people's heads it's not going to change them. It never will. The pure whining about this actually works contrary to your designs.
It became sad at some point about 3 months ago.
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Olorin_DAoC
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Ok the real problem I see is the melee resists. Scale seems to have been given a larger slash weakness than it probably should have. I as a cloth caster regularly get hit by zerks for LESS than the scale wearers in my group.
So much so almost all the good tanks on Guin are switching to RI. I really think that is what you should be complaining about. I really don't think Albs have quite the problem with zerks as Hibs do.
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Skeggjold
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"How do you get away from a chanter PBAE? How do you get away from a zerker?
The difference is the problem."
Yah, that is a problem, sorta like the problem of escaping debuffed base nukes after you escape pbae range from the same chanter .
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{old}Hajj24
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I'm confused how somebody that says zerker damage needs to be nerfed can also say the following...
"In a 1 on 1 duel, sure, zerkers are less formidable and it isn’t that hard to defeat them. But real realm warfare is not as idyllic as that, Faed."
I think you've answered your own question. Warfare is not as idyllic as that. Was Lanalae suppose to wait until you were done beating on Gramse so you would have a easier time killing him?
Nobody is happy with every fight. I know I'm not. I get nuked twice and dead before I can /face the enemy sometimes. Other times I can kill somebody pretty quickly.
I'm usually pretty upset with the former and happy about the later. I think people hit to hard when they kill me, and think that my damage is fine when I kill them.
I'm of the opinion that people on average think that they should win a fight more often than not. The unfortunate reality is that this cannot be true for everyone. Somebody has to die! <grins evily>
- Hajj
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Grimmers1
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unf
<sends red frost stallions after people>
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Olorin_DAoC
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On another note a thing I have noticed and it may be Mythics way of balancing is that Mids are better set up to kill Hibs and Hibs better set to kill Albs and Albs can stand up to Mids better.
Are zerks the most damaging tank in the game? Albs might say a LW user in Hib is.
Anyways I played Hib for a year. Do I think its right that zerks do SO much damage to scale wearers? No. But its the melee resists fault not the zerkers. They don't hit armsman nearly as hard.
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Kowyn
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I've never heard of an Armsman being 3 shot by a LW user.
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Brannigan73
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Scale only take 10% more damage from slash then Plate. That is not a large number. This is not a scale only problem.
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Lef_Grebo
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"In reality a zerk would be so overcome with their rage they wouldn't be able to style OR defend themselves. This change will never happen but it's what would happen if you got 2.5x to 3x your strength from ANGER ALONE! *See being posessed by the God of Rage* A berserker would be more hindered from their ability and it wouldn't be something they could trigger. Just FYI "
I just wanted to say that based on the abouve quote, Navneimu-Furystick has no frickin clue what the berzerker powers were based on norse myth. According to Norse Myth a Berserker was INVULNERABLE to any kind of damage while in a fit of rage. He also killed whatever he hit while in a rage. In fact, according the Norse Myth, the only way to kill a zerker was to wait until AFTER the fit left him. At that point the berserker was in a feeble state and unable to defend himself.
As to the regular nerf zedrker posts. Leave it to say, I have yet to see anything from Mythic indicatring a zerker nerf is coming anytime soon. fatc is I am a 49 zerker and I have NEVER hitr anyone for more than 800pts of damage, and that is rare. So clearly not ALL zerkers are doing outrageous damage all the time.
But carry on with your nerf zerker posts, as I am sure it makes you feel better.
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Griod
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My biggest hit ever in RvR was 374, from the second in the rear positional chain (I'm 50 blunt, wielding a 99% arcanite spiked mace (4.2 delay)). No crit. If I had been luckier and critted, the max crit would have been 185 or so. The most I could have *possibly* hit for would have been 375 + 185 = 560. Of course I didn't; I hit for 374.
So ya, I've never hit for over 800, either.
Or 700.
Or 600.
Or 500.
Or 400.
Edit: Yes, I have > 300 str, 65 qui and > 1700 weaponskill.
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Seter
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It's ok Lef, playing your FotY class will soon pay off for you and you'll have the ub3r rps. Just one more lvl for you until you can just slam one style key over and over again. Back to leveling!!
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Yoreox
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Cry More!
Only thing I see is Albion/Hibbies Whine Whine Whine Whine until something gets nerfed, which doesn't need nerfing at all.
All you dudes who want a Zerker nerf are all wanting the I WIN ALL THE TIME BUTTON for your shirt.
Give it up!
Hell last 3 patch have been nothen but Albion adds to an already over powered realm. If all you Albs traded places with Mids on a level base, we ALBs(Mids) would kick you arse all over the place. You just got no skills(tactics) cept a zerg. Fess up and quit your whining.
Ya there a few albs who know how to pharm, or gank group, but thats it.
Ceyah!
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Kowyn
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Albs received loving because they were underpowered. Now they are much more balanced, especially with Hibernia. But both Albs and Hibs complain about Zerkers because we're not blind to their overpowered qualities like you are.
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Seter
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oohhh...Yoreox pulled out the 'tactics' insult.
We all know mids have the superior tactics from the being the underdog for so long. The fact that their tactics revolve strictly around one style and one buff has nothing to do with the argument right?
Back to the playpen with you kid.
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Garduf
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"Hell last 3 patch have been nothen but Albion adds to an already over powered realm. If all you Albs traded places with Mids on a level base, we ALBs(Mids) would kick you arse all over the place. You just got no skills(tactics) cept a zerg. Fess up and quit your whining. "
uhhh you are a total moron. please leave this server if you play here and go to merlin it seems like you would fit in there quite well. It is clear you have never played any realm, but midgard or you would not think alb was the overpowered realm...
on a class per class basis there is not ONE single alb class better than its other realm counterparts. Not ONE. And last time i checked midgard was the only realm with multiple classes with an 'I win' button. So far as your 'tactics' arguement...hitting doublefrost does not equate to tactics. That is all.
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{old}Adohc
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Please don't forget to mention that it is obvious he was running away the whole time (as evident that the target he was attacking was getting to far to attack, and that it says he was to fatigued to sprint, hmmm maybe someone should have had a End Regen potion on them), and back styles are deadly.
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VedaineIvyryder
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<< Cry More!
Only thing I see is Albion/Hibbies Whine Whine Whine Whine until something gets nerfed, which doesn't need nerfing at all.
All you dudes who want a Zerker nerf are all wanting the I WIN ALL THE TIME BUTTON for your shirt.
Give it up!
Hell last 3 patch have been nothen but Albion adds to an already over powered realm. If all you Albs traded places with Mids on a level base, we ALBs(Mids) would kick you arse all over the place. You just got no skills(tactics) cept a zerg. Fess up and quit your whining.
Ya there a few albs who know how to pharm, or gank group, but thats it.
Ceyah! >>
Okay, right here I see:
1) Cry more n00b
2) Another Cry more n00b
3) A 'you dun have our skillz kthx'
4) Use tactics, n00b!
5) Proclaiming Mids have more l337 skillz than the other realms
6) Usage of the word pharm
7) 'Ceyah'
Worst.
Post.
Ever.
<< Hell last 3 patch have been nothen but Albion adds to an already over powered realm. >>
...
Uh.
Can we laugh now?
... A Mid calling Albion overpowered?
...
...
Bahahahaha 
I certaintly don't hope this is what a lot of Midgard has been reduced to... or I pity all of the really good people left in that realm
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Seter
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"Please don't forget to mention that it is obvious he was running away the whole time"
Staghorn doesn't 'run away'. I've grouped with him every morning for well over 2 months now. He plays his class very well and the last thing he is is a coward.
I would say he was probably trying to catch a healer/caster that had permasprint, or trying to protect his support/casters.
As has been said, there is next to no options for hib tanks to do to help their group survive an onslaught of the 'normal' mid group anymore.
Especially that group they ran into since that group normally has at least 3 zerkers in it.
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Staghorn_Moonlancer
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No she wasn’t Hajj, she was supposed to attack me with everything she has, just like I attack my enemies with everything I have.
That is why this thread is addressing the issue of the overpowered zerker class, not the players who use this class. I am not mad at any zerker here, I am only mad at people who turn a blind eye to the obvious so that they can keep their precious broken invinci-mages.
Skegg, this post was not a whine at all, but rather an answer to a challenge. When I read other zerker threads I heard wild claims of 1000+ zerker damage, much as I have experienced, but the only remark the whiner gets from mids is, "I don believe joo, where’s yer ss n00b? Prove it". So this post was just a kick in the ass, a wake up call, and forces people to either:
A) Agree that zerker damage is indeed outrageous
B) Pathetically defend zerker damage, even with insane damage captured as evidence, staring them in the face
C) Ignore the problem and hope it goes away
At least now people can’t be called liars or exaggerators about their claims to the damage they have received due to broken zerkers with my example here for all to gaze at. Even still, no one has given any realistic reason for a melee class to output so much damage with a one-hand slash weapon. The best argument for such damage I have heard so far is that it is the recipient’s fault for having EPIC SCALE on which is, of course, ludicrous.
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Evendale_StarFire
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Staghorn was not running away, he was chasing Gramse. I happened to be late to join battle as I was afk and lost follow when group sprinted into fight. I came back and saw Gramse was being chased by a big blue firbolg.
Every style used was a back style, the Snowsquall -->> Icy Brilliance combo. And all hits were done in Vendo mode and as a result all hits included criticals.
To be honest I find both alb and hibs are able to field very potent groups, but the groups that tend to cause the most problems remain tight, dont get Kited, heal well, and utilize wardens and assisting for hib side, and albs use BoF, and assisting with some mage dot's nukes mixed in.
Groups that stand out to me are Sloane's team that uses 2 wardens often, and on the alb side Predians groups with a few friars that exchange roles healing and fighting, and the Valiant Glory groups led by Tesfaye that sadly have become rare lately. When Adanvan puts together a team I usually die atleast 2 or 3 times before we get some lucky breaks and manage to win.
Ive been just as frustrated by Hib and Alb encounters as some of the posters here. A good team can win with good tactics and some luck against any group. Some times the basics like assisting, secondary CC after the 1st round of mez/stuns, and using all resources like heals even from wardens and friars at key times are what will put you over the top.
The hits on Staghorn in this example are not unusual for me, and yes realm rank does play a role, the increase in weapon skill that comes with each rank do help. But I get hit very hard by other tanks, so much so I have had to go with capped resists, aug con 3, and Avoid Pain 2 to keep an edge. Most of all any time someone is lining me up for a back attack, I move. Fighting well isnt as simple as some make it sound. The game gives opportunities to interact in dynamic ways, responding to threats and seizing opportunities. If your not collecting information every second of the battle and making decisions then your not going to be as effective as you can be.
I don't really care if people believe its skilless to play a berserker, fact of the matter is it takes a good team to win battles and really thats all there is to it.
All we can do is go out there and work with what we have, design tactics around our strengths, and try to prevent enemies from exploiting our weaknesses.
Most of all I think that we are lucky to have good enemies to fight each day, people that make the battles fun. I hope that the animosity expressed here in the thread isnt personal, as I have the utmost respect for the foes that we face each day.
Sincerly, Lanalae Frost.
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Budakan
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we have zerks u have enchanters. Get over it.
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Staghorn_Moonlancer
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Yorex = Are you 11? If so you are excused. But explain to me reasonably why any class can hit for 1000+ with a 1h slash weapon. If you can then you can do a great thing, for no one else has been able to do so successfully.
Lef = Actually, bezerkers are historical figures too. They were highly prized warriors and were not invincible. The thing that made them so terrifying was their lack of concern for their own well being. They would work themselves up into a frenzy by throwing of their clothes, screaming, growling, and lashing at themselves with their own weapons. This was a psychological warrior, not a supernatural one, and he terrified his enemies because of his lack of concern for himself. They were very hard to beat in combat because the bezerker used an axe and thrust his body heedlessly into the foray, ignoring his own wounds.
However in large-scale battles, bezerkers were the first to die, and they died in hordes.
Lanalee: Woot! The big blue firbie! /flex That be me, mwahaha. However your attacks are not justified simply by realm rank or back positional. The fact is that I get hit for just as much damage by many other bezerkers from all sides, front side and back, styled or unstyled, vendo or not. I DO have SS's to prove this; I have many, many SS's of many different encounters with many different zerkers and all of them show myself being hit for at least 700+, but more often than not, 900+. My SS gallery grows with each morning (I have 2 from this morning). Sadly for bezerkers such as yourself, the evidence does not stack in favor of back styles/poor AF/realm rank, etc. If this were truly the case, then I would only be hit for such damage by you, but I am not, as many of the other posters in this thread have clearly expressed. No fault to you for fully using a broken class given to you by Mythic, but do not defend your class if you have any shred of honesty in your hairy little body.
And to whomever said I was running from battle, I was the first into the foray and the last to fall. I killed one, I think... maybe another, I dont quite remember. I think I switched to a healer because the target I was on kept getting healed and as I chased him around he sprinted and then skald-sped away (how on earth he did that I do not know) and just then Lanalee came from behind to nock me down in a few hits, making my IP something to laugh at. I do carry endpots with me but in a battle like that, they are far too clumsy (and useless) to use. I wish Mythic would let us use them without disengaging from combat and without having to hold “Eâ€.
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Enkidu98
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Adrydana says: "that sounds all nice a dandy Faeyd, but why should i purge an AE CC that lasts no longer than 10 secs with Det 3+ resists? no form of AE CC lasts longer than 15 seconds on me. besides, being rooted means nothing since someone ALWAYS runs by me with dmg shield on ;-) besides, getting a group running with speed 5 + sprint towards you CCed before some of us at least reaches you is kinda hard. oh yeah, insta mez.. that icon flashes the sec is hits me, so that wont last long <shrugs>"
Anyone else think that this is the worst defense for leaving Zerkers as they are ever?
Looks to me like you have far more power than any other class.
Zerkers are _sick_. The Class is out of the scale right now.
Take some of their damage and give it to wardens. I'll be happy with 25-50 points more damage per hit. I could do maybe 125 points then. WHEEEE
Gwal
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VedaineIvyryder
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<< we have zerks u have enchanters. Get over it. >>
Then tell me, your godliness Budakan... why do your Berserkers do as much damage as an Enchanter, if not more when they are mages and yours are not?
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Enkidu98
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Lef_Grebo said: " just wanted to say that based on the abouve quote, Navneimu-Furystick has no frickin clue what the berzerker powers were based on norse myth. According to Norse Myth a Berserker was INVULNERABLE to any kind of damage while in a fit of rage. He also killed whatever he hit while in a rage. In fact, according the Norse Myth, the only way to kill a zerker was to wait until AFTER the fit left him. At that point the berserker was in a feeble state and unable to defend himself. "
OK, So give Zerkers Vendo every 7 minutes but when its over give them A form of rez sickness that reduces their endurance regen to 20% of normal, Their HP regen to 20% of normal and greys out their sprint button/ability as well as acts as a debuff of all stats for 75 Points and Hitopints by 200 points.
If the reduced hitpoints results in Berserker death... too bad.
There.. Balanced.
Gwal
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{old}Hajj24
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But Stag, you've stated both of the following in this thread.
"In a 1 on 1 duel, sure, zerkers are less formidable and it isn’t that hard to defeat them. But real realm warfare is not as idyllic as that, Faed."
AND
"That is why this thread is addressing the issue of the overpowered zerker class"
Which is it? As I stated earlier. I think too many people think that they should win a fight more often than not. It cannot be that way for everyone. Somebody has to lose every battle. Somebody will be disappointed. All I ask is that you think before you cry nerf.
Believe me, if there needs to be a change I'm all for it. However, I don't like people whining or complaining, and other people jumping on the nerf bandwagon which leads to Mythic doing something they shouldn't.
Unfortunately I cannot comment intelligently on zerker damage. I've not had any experience either as a zerker, or being hit by a zerker. I'll not take either side in this issue. I just wish people would think a lil more before they post.
- Hajj
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VedaineIvyryder
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Yes Hajj, you are correct. People do want to win fights.
That's why when a group of a Shaman, 3 Zerks, 1 M/P Healer, 1 Supp Runie, 1 Skald, and 1 Pac Healer go out and totally devastate 16 Hibs/Albs, it gets frustrating.
Especially when main tanks get hit for over 1,000 damage on mainhand weapon hits.
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{old}Hajj24
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Yes Vedaine, that seems like a pretty nice group. Unfortunately, I don't know what that is suppose to mean.
This thread is about zerkers and zerkers only. In particular, my post was directed at the conflict in Stag's comments. I'm only tryin to provoke a little thought here rather than have people immediately cry nerf.
- Hajj
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Jarvssen
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I like how doing 1000 damage is justified by saying things like the target wasn't wearing a proper set of armor, his RP's are too low or he wasn't wearing his protective cup.
Yeah that all justifies that.
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Raix_DAOC
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" This is the stupidest argument I've seen yet.
5 MoC Chanters = 70 total RA points
How much can 2-3 zerkers get for 70 RA points? "
Sorry. but that would be the stupidest arguement.
Because it does'nt say shit about what I just said.
Anyway, maybe you should start whinning on the right boards... apprently after 924892482 nerf zerker threads that have been made here alone, nothing has been done. Except on-going arguements or making a fool of yourself.
/directs people to the "Cry More Boards".
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Netana
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>>I've never heard of an Armsman being 3 shot by a LW user. << (Kowyn)
I have. But I'm level 49. I have 28% slash resist and 100 af armor. A level 40 did a back attack on me for 250 damage. I thought this was ridiculously high for being 9 levels below me. I turned towards him and all of his hits were blocked/parried at least. But at level 40? Don't know.. I've had my paladin 2-shotted (those extra armsman hitpoints help you die in three shots!!)
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Skeggjold
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Thats exactly what we DON'T need more of Staghorn. This post isn't a "wakeup call" this post is a "oh no not this topic again I'm sick of this shit" call. This thread is more likely to put the readers of this vn board to sleep rather than light a fire under anyones arse. You will NEVER change their opinions, give it up, it just won't happen. I could post screenshots of me hitting in the 900-1300 range on non casters all damn day long, but it won't change a damn thing. This board isn't the outlet for it. All your post does is rehash the same old debate that has gone on for nearly 8 months now.
You want to change it? You gotta go over to the closed tester boards and make logical well thought out posts. I mean ones with data and figures, not just the "boohoo last night I got hit for xxxx damage".
GIVE IT UP GIVE IT UP GIVE IT UP GIVE IT UP GIVE IT UP GIVE IT UP GIVE IT UP GIVE IT UP GIVE IT UP GIVE IT UP GIVE IT UP GIVE IT UP GIVE IT UP GIVE IT UP GIVE IT UP GIVE IT UP GIVE IT UP GIVE IT UP GIVE IT UP GIVE IT UP GIVE IT UP GIVE IT UP GIVE IT UP GIVE IT UP
Nothing you EVER say here will EVER have effect on the game. It only has the effect of annoying the piss out of me and any other vn user here that is sick and tired of the damn subject.
JESUS SQUEEZE US
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Jarvssen
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Does that mean no more Nerf BoF threads too?
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Brudan_Nightskye
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Yeah . . . Skeggjold is quite right about that. Old topic, and people are already decided, so talking it over more is pretty useless.
<-- A guilty party. I will refraid from comment from now on.
Edit: GREAT idea, Jarv. For that matter, how about NO MORE NERF THREADS EVER!
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{old}Hajj24
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Don't forget 'gank' threads. I'd like to see them go too.
- Hajj
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Skeggjold
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Yes, Jarvssen.
Even though there isn't a nerf bof thread EVERY SECOND OF EVERY FREAKING DAY.
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Seter
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GIVE ME PATCH NOTES!!!!!!
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Shadivak_Perc
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NERF ZERKERS!
(I had to)
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ValourofPercival
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Regarding Adrydana's comment that Staghorn is lying about Lanalae running with 3 or 4 zerkers.
Adrydana is confused. Perhaps somedays Lanalae has only 2 zerkers in her group, but other days she most assuredly has more.
Just this morning Wednesday March 11th 2003 at 9:22 am EST, Lanalae's group had 4 zerkers
Lanalae, Shayll, Boze, and Adrydana.
Perhaps they were just 2 groups of 4 mids each with 2 zerkers each. But it's a good bet that the 8 were all in the same group.
Please do not falsely accuse Staghorn of lying. If you wish, feel free to attempt to argue against the fact that Zerkers do too much damage. Please do not sling false character accusations about.
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Shadivak_Perc
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teehee!
"Lanalae, Shayll, Boze, and Adrydana."
I see those four together almost every day as well.
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Roveth_Runey
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I've had 5 zerkers a skald and me with End 5 and a healer.
After 2 or 3 fights we disbanded because we felt like we were cheating.
Well....ok, no we didn't, we kicked everyone's ass for the whole night and vowed to reform that group at some point
I know, I know, you all wish you were me.
Carry on.
Edit: We had a healer too :P
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Elmador_MoK
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That schreeny is just sickening...
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Nokekula
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With all due respect to the mangina... what should we do about over the top zerker damage?
Just suck it up and pretend it doesnt exisit? re-roll a zerk of our own?
Mythic doesnt seem to care. New rank 2 level 50 zerkers are coming out of the snowy mountains every day. where will it stop?
the great mangina is about the only player of a berserker that is honest about how overpowered the class can be with the right circumstances. the mangina is also one of the most knowledgeable about the class from the inside.
all we see is the big hits, vendo every fight and fast death whether it be rank 7 zerks or rank 2. whether it be abermania or Emain-mania.
What else can we do besides complain to likeminded people?
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Roveth_Runey
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"the great mangina "
Oh my god. Too Funneh.
Of course zerkers do too much damage. But you people are stupid enough to keep brining it up OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER, so why shouldn't people have fun denying it?
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{old}Korik2
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Do any albs or hibs have any fear of midgard besides the zerker?
Geez it feels like zerkers are the one thing keeping us on the average realm point scores. mids albs and hibs all have around 17 mill aweek.
I know as a mid there are alot of classes I fear from the other side. Zerkers the only thing alb/hibs have to fear?
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Garduf
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most people would be more than happy to give any mid class that is weak currently a large buffing if zerkers are toned down to reasonable. just as i'm sure most people would gladly give ments, elds, and chanters (except mana lines) loving if mana chanters could be brought down some.
maybe we will be lucky and the mid and hib patches will address mana chanters/zerkers, and give some classes in dire need of help some love.
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Taeolen
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Here's what I learned from reading the VN boards.
All Hibs and Albs are stupid, unskilled, under equipped, low real point idiots, and THAT is the reason why we get hit so hard by Zerkers!
It's NOT because the class is overpowered, guys!
C'mon! Don't you see this?
/sarcasm off
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{old}Adrydana
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hmmm... just because they have had 4 zerkers once doesnt mean they usualy have it. remember I FRIKKIN GROUP WITH THEM EVERY DAY...hello? im not confused. you're all pathetic hypocrites. yelling noob and fotm does absolutely nothing, it doesnt change the situation... frankly i enjoy posting here mainly because its like fishing with dynamite. ah yes, i am a FOTM noob zerker that doesnt nothing but spam doublefrost. yeah ok, 1) all zerker styles has the same animation. so unless the zerker is in front of you , you have NO idea what style they are using. kthxbai. 2) spamming DF = death, without knowing what the hell you're doing. besides, its like saying Armsmen or heroes only spam 1 style as well. or assassins only use PA, CD and stunning jab. well, duh...i dun tell you guys that you're noobs just because you use the best styles you got eh? <shrugs> that doesnt mean anything really. i dun see how using our best anytime style is wrong, or how that makes me a noob 3) 200k+ RP gain a week, oh yeah... im FOTM alright. besides RR or RPs means dick to me. 3 words: hypocrites, noobs and jealousy. that about sums you people up
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Nokekula
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definition of hypocrisy:
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
besides RR or RPs means dick to me. 3 words: hypocrites, blah, blah, blah
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All your RPs are belong to us! <<<
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Seter
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1. hypocrites : I don't hit other tanks as hard as zerkers hit me.
2. noobs : Been here since day 1
3. jealousy : If heroes hit as hard as zerkers do to all classes then I'd be the first to call a nerf on myself.
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Kowyn
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Midgard classes I fear:
Savage
Zerker
Shaman
Bonedancer
Healer
Runemaster
Spiritmaster
Hunter
Shadowblade
Skald
Thane
Warrior
A few of them have shortcomings that could use improvements, the vast majority are as good or better than their other realm counterparts.
Zerkers are simply at the top of our list of imbalances in this game. We want it fixed. Mythic has shown that complaints equal balancing issues. Smite Clerics were complained about for a good 8 months before they were finally nerfed. The same will happen to zerkers, and when it does happen it will be sweet. Why? Because just like Smite Clerics were, Zerkers are in absolute denial of how powerful they are. And frankly who wouldn't be? The Zerker class gives yourself the illusion of dominance in a very simplistic manner. You don't really have to work for it.
As to the rest of you mid defenders, I suggest you heed the advice of every class that has ever been nerfed to hell. Don't wait for Mythic to come up with the balancing ideas, because they will screw you over. Make your own suggestions for tuning down Zerker damage, or you'll be left standing out in the cold.
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Garduf
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And Adrydana shows his/her age...
i would likely lean toward his, but thats another issue.
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Setala
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ValourofPercival
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Adrydana: "i dun think so, i run with her every day. we have never had over 3 zerkers. some times only 2. "
In one post you claim you "never" run with more than 2 zerkers.
the next you claim you "once" ran with more than 2 zerkers.
Are you going to say you "usually" run with more than 2 zerkers in your next post?
Someone in Albion has already confirmed that it happens frequently. You are not achieving anything by denying it, it's not even an important fact. One is never in a situation which would justify name hurling and false accusations, but to repeatedly do so simply destroys your credibility. Please do not over generalize your statements to include everyone and do not simply accuse Staghorn or lying just because you do not like the point that he is trying to bring up.
Focus on the issue of zerker damage. Lanalae did a great job of presenting her poitns. I think Lanalae has made her own position clear very reasonably and in the way we want to conduct a discussion.
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Jarvssen
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There may not be a "Nerf BoF" thread every single day.
But everytime there is its from a Zerker.
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Staghorn_Moonlancer
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Skegg: Bored are you? Then don't read the thread. You have only yourself to blame if you keep coming back and back to the same thread if you are bored with it. With all the posts this thread is getting and the flurry of private messages I have been receiving when I normally get none, i'd say that most people dont share your opinion. So just ignore the thread, it’s that simple bro.
Hajj: Take my quote into context and the supposed conflict will magically disappear. I swear, people misquote others far too much. If you were paying attention you will recall that the quote you used was in a post I made referring to Faed when he mentioned that all I need to do to defeat a zerker is roll a spear hybrid hero (which I have) so I can shield slam them. I then said that yes, with that one specific spec of the hero class, a 1 on 1 duel with a zerker gives the hero a pretty good chance of winning if and only if the zerker uses vendo and thus brings his defense down and allows me to get my shield slam off without fail. I did not say, as you inferred, that zerkers are easy to take at all times, in vendo and not in vendo, as long as they are 1 on 1. My point was that because zerkers are always in groups (in the company of many more of themselves) stunning and meleeing a zerker is pointless because he can be healed by his pet healer, and charging the healer is pointless because I can be 2 shotted from behind by the zerker.
Read things in context, or, as you would say, "think a little more before you post".
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Hubbe_Galenyxa
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You know what annoys me the most? THERE IS NO Z IN BERSERKER!!!
It's never ever "zerker", maybe "serker", but I hate saying that too, it's just wrong! It's like saying "master" when you're talking about runemaster or spiritmaster or even blademaster for that matter, or maybe "man" about armsman.
Other than that, this whole thread is pointless, only brings out the "best" in people, doesn't it?
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Staghorn_Moonlancer
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ah, but other classes have nicknames too. Runnie, BM and Arms, for your examples.
Others include Pally, Minst, sorc, theug, VW, champ, etc, etc.
Zerker is just another abbreviation
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Hubbe_Galenyxa
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But I hate Z's! There is no reason to put a Z instead of an S there, that's mainly what irritates me. Otherwise, sure, it's just another abbreviation... I was going to say it's like calling runemasters for "mazter" or something stupid like that, but that thought got lost somewhere on the way.
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Oaklay_Deathstryker
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"Even with my shadowblade, I find that I can solo a hib tank and have about 1 in 3 chances of winning, even when I'm unbuffed."
Best.
Argument.
Ever.
*bursts into laughter*
Way to plea that left axe isn't overpowered!
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Fifliffl
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Adrydana's posts make me laugh. She/He gets all worked up and angry and forgets to think
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{old}Adrydana
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actually, i just try to piss people off the most i can. you guys are amusing, and you all fall in with both legs
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Shmack6
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"Anyways I played Hib for a year. Do I think its right that zerks do SO much damage to scale wearers? No. But its the melee resists fault not the zerkers. They don't hit armsman nearly as hard."
I'll never get over these statements and how silly they are. First the archers said that it wasn't the archers fault if solo players got ganked by them, rather they should get a group. Then it was the assassins who said that assassins weren't to blame rather, it was the buff bots fault. Now it's not the zerkers or LA that is to blame rather it is the armor resist tables.
Time for Shadowbane and anything BUT DAoC.
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Gebriel1
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mid = morons if they think zerks aren't overpowered. hitting for 700+ on average is very, very wrong. as a 50 friar, my biggest hit was on a level 1 mob, with a 400 damage crit and a 5.5 speed weapon, i hit for 900...now, zerks hit for 900 on level 50 paladins a lot of the time. do you mids get it now? but, what i'm really saying is...NERF ZERKS
PS. i listen to talk radio
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KyanMehwulfe
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>>"75-90% of hibs are more than willing to admit mana/light chanters are overpowered."
So the magic realm has stronger mages, the melee realm has stronger fighters.
Hibernian said it himself.
And that is the balance Mythic original (still apparently) aims for.
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Kowyn
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<<So the magic realm has stronger mages, the melee realm has stronger fighters.
Hibernian said it himself.
And that is the balance Mythic original (still apparently) aims for. >>
He was saying that Hibernia admits to the enchanter being overpowered and would have no problem with a rebalance, unlike all of Midgard with regards to the zerker. Context is a wonderful thing you know.
And if Mythic's original balance is to have Midgard with the best melee and Hibernia with the best magic, then they need to rebalance Heros, Champions, Bonedancers, Runemasters and Spiritmasters accordingly.
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Andrist
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'Bout all Adrydana e'er really does is prove 'ow completely ignorant she/he/it is.
One o'those people who jus' don' matter at all, ye know.
Andrist
Smite Thee!!
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Zxae_Sorrow
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*** Midgard classes I fear:
Savage
Zerker
Shaman
Bonedancer
Healer
Runemaster
Spiritmaster
Hunter
Shadowblade
Skald
Thane
Warrior
A few of them have shortcomings that could use improvements, the vast majority are as good or better than their other realm counterparts.
Zerkers are simply at the top of our list of imbalances in this game. We want it fixed. Mythic has shown that complaints equal balancing issues. Smite Clerics were complained about for a good 8 months before they were finally nerfed. The same will happen to zerkers, and when it does happen it will be sweet. Why? Because just like Smite Clerics were, Zerkers are in absolute denial of how powerful they are. And frankly who wouldn't be? The Zerker class gives yourself the illusion of dominance in a very simplistic manner. You don't really have to work for it.
As to the rest of you mid defenders, I suggest you heed the advice of every class that has ever been nerfed to hell. Don't wait for Mythic to come up with the balancing ideas, because they will screw you over. Make your own suggestions for tuning down Zerker damage, or you'll be left standing out in the cold. ***
Amen to that. I am happy if the Midgard classes that need love, fixes or tweaks get them. But Beserker¡¦s are not one of them, the damage they have a chance to do, at the speeds they can do it is a **huge** problem.
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** Cry More!
Only thing I see is Albion/Hibbies Whine Whine Whine Whine until something gets nerfed, which doesn't need nerfing at all. **
Did you know that Alb, Hib, and Mid are all the same race? Human!, there is no difference in us except, it seems some people just cannot face up to the fact something in there realm is not balanced. Ever wonder why Hibs and Albs complain about Beserker damage? Ever think.. There could be some TRUTH to the complaining, the problem of the damage. That **has** been shown in numerous SS's and **has** been agreed opon by some of the most dominant Beserker's on this server.
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***
Hell last 3 patch have been nothen but Albion adds to an already over powered realm. If all you Albs traded places with Mids on a level base, we ALBs(Mids) would kick you arse all over the place. You just got no skills(tactics) cept a zerg. Fess up and quit your whining. ***
So Albion's overpowered? Because Minstrel's can climb walls? Because instead of an Insta mezz they receive a bolt range mezz? No Albion isn't overpowered, Midgard isn't overpowered, Neither is Hibernia. But classes in all three realms need tweaking/fixing or toning down, the one needing the nerf
stick the **most** is Beserker's.
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** Albs received loving because they were underpowered. Now they are much more balanced, especially with Hibernia. But both Albs and Hibs complain about Zerkers because we're not blind to their overpowered qualities like you are. **
Exactly what Kowyn just said.
**we have zerks u have enchanters. Get over it. **
After numerous responses by different people, explaining the difference, telling you that you have Supp SMs with better PbAe, AoE stun plus Beserker's (Amongst other's abilities and strengths). Should you choose to utilizie them you would see that Midgard matches hibernia's magic quite easily you think something would sink in? Obviously not. Most if not all Enchanter's are happy!! <--- See happy! If they were nerfed to a respectable level, which is more then I can say for most of the Beserker¡¦s.
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*** don't want Blademasters and Mercs doing Zerker damage. Having one class in the game like that is already overkill.
Zerkers, Blademasters and Mercenaries should do more damage than their primary tanks, and this includes spear/polearm users (over time of course). If a Merc is swinging both weapons and getting 300 total every 3 seconds, to a polearmer getting 500 every 6, then it's working right.
However right now we've seen hits from zerkers that double and in some cases triple the damage output of a typical Warrior 2h hit. It's unbalanced and it needs to be toned down. ***
Damn Straight, that's exactly right and the whole point.
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**
kowyn. i do 500-900 damage (roughly, ive never done 1k yet) every 3.3 seconds, chanters do about 500 each.. 2 seconds? thats 1k damage in about the time it takes me the same, overall enchanters do damage faster than i. do i whine about chnater PBAE? no, i dun recall doing so **
Except for the god damn fact Enchanter's. Any Cloth wears gets 1 / 2 shot by you¡K We aren't 2 Shotting you back are we? If you're hitting us, can we cast? No. MoC is a 30 min RA that lasts 14 Seconds. But wait, we do damage quicker then you. Can you move OUT of our PbAe field? We cannot, unlike you and any other mellee /stick and chase you while casting.. Throw in Det, Ip, Instas, Buffs, There is not way for a PbAe to take out a Beserker before they take out Him/her.
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** As to the regular nerf zedrker posts. Leave it to say, I have yet to see anything from Mythic indicatring a zerker nerf is coming anytime soon. fatc is I am a 49 zerker and I have NEVER hitr anyone for more than 800pts of damage, and that is rare. So clearly not ALL zerkers are doing outrageous damage all the time. **
Only 800? Awww! You poor thing!
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Zinfandel
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That is alot of damage, perhaps overboard.
However what is Midgard strength? I'll tell ya, melee, and hibernia is casting.
All the time I get killed with similar damage from hibernia casters. unless I somehow come up on them around a corner and have melee range do I have a chance. and even that is no gaurantee.
Don't want to justify that zerker dmg, I certainly can't. But when we all clamor for nerfing, we should look at the entire picture.
Garrock
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Staghorn_Moonlancer
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Zin, you need to look at the entire picture as well. The dead horse keeps being beaten: yes, I know Hibernia is a magical realm. Yes I know Midgard is a melee realm. But does this mean that 1 specific class in the melee realm can outdamage any tank in ANY realm (even the melee realm) and any mage in any realm? Not at all. Being a melee realm could simply mean that their melee classes are more versatile than the melee classes of the other 2 realms, and doesnt necessarily mean that all melee classes in that realm can and should have the ability to 2 shot any other epic armor wearing tank out there.
Berserker damage cannot be justified by the statement, "it is a melee class in a melee realm" especially since the other melee classes in that melee realm dont even come close to Berserker damage. Berserkers are broken even when compared to classes within their own realm. Nerf is not the cry I am shouting or the banner I am waving. Justification first, and if the damage cannot be justified (as we have seen in this thread) then class balance. This means that all melee classes (well maybe not all, but most) need the once over, not just Berserkers. Berserker damage does indeed need to be greatly reduced, and their Vendo ability needs to be looked at, and as such, I believe the Warrior and Thane classes need to be looked at also to make them more competitive within their own realm. Likewise, Blademasters and Mercenaries need some serious loving for they have no advantages that I can see for forsaking a better armor to become a dual wielding class. The Hero Celtic Spear weapon needs to be addressed as well, for it is not as formidable as it should be due to broken damage tables, armor resists and poor styles and chains. So the problem is not solely Berserkers; the problem is unbalance between the realms. But above all of this Berserker damage shines through as a bright example of how much work Mythic still has to do.
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Olorin_DAoC
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"However what is Midgard strength? I'll tell ya, melee, and hibernia is casting."
This is not valid. Both Alb and Mid casters have a higher magic damage potential than hibernia. No other realm has access to the melee damage midgard does.
Staghorn I played hib for over a year and with some of the best Hibs to RvR. While yes the damage is a bit nuts I still contend that its because slash resist is done wrong on scale. Switch to AF102 RI armor and you WILL see a drop in damage from zerks. A druid I play with, Docoloth, has a MP suit of AF 102 scale that he spent a fortune on. He regularly was getting hit for 400-500 by zerks, sometimes higher. He recently went to a AF102 RI suit and dropped the average zerk hit down 100-150 damage. I don't see albs in plate getting hit for 500+ damage all that often. Its very rare for a non crit hit on them to go over 350.
Regardless you HAVE to change your style of fighting when facing these groups. The typical take the healer down first just doesnt work.
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Tessuraea
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Do I fear other Midgard classes?
Yes. Berserkers first, of course.
Runemasters, Spiritmasters next. Runies are probably the most well-rounded mage in the game. They have access to the highest-damage DD and quite a few other abilities that make them strong. And they can be dwarfs. Spiritmasters--suppression is the real culprit here. They have a very nice PBAE. I like these two classes. I'd like the rest of the mages in the game to be as well-rounded as the Runemaster--which basically means the various spec lines need to be fixed.
Shaman and Healer. Cave has the combination of AE disease and AE dot, quite devastating when used together, and Shamen wear chain and are very hard to kill. Pac Healers combined with berserkers are more or less an I Win button, which Midgard knows well. I don't precisely fear Augmentation or Mending specs (are those the right words for Midgard) but they do have a lot of impact on a group.
Bonedancer. I consider them a broken class. Until they're made a bit more killable, I just Sever them all with glee.
Shadowblade. One of the few classes left that can, probably only when buffbotted to the hilt, still one-shot-kill me when I'm in my AF 51 99% spellcrafted gear with maxed slash resists and all my buffs up.
Everything else gets lumped together as things to be aware of but not to fear overly much. <shrug>
You asked.
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{old}FedDAOC
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Yup,
'serks 1-2 shot everything in their path all the time. No outside circumstances are involved and with 1 'serk you can take out an entire group of level 50's.
It happens so much that there is something that just neeeeds to be done.
Just like the infs I have seen 2 shot level 50 heavy tanks.
Just like the Enchanters I have seen 2-round a tank (Killed him so fast he couldnt hit IP).
Just like the Champ that who constantly hits for 400+ and sometimes for 800+.
The Friar that was hitting our Warrior for 700ish a hit.. killed him quite quickly when he self hasted.
Just like the BoF/SoS stack that nullifies melee to nothingness... We all know you have this RA available all the time and a minst in your back pocket!
This stuff happens ALL THE TIME!
(Some sarcasm.. some laughter.. a whole lotta BS)
/yawn
/next
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Aramathea
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Whatever, i dont need to lie to play this stupid game. I am just sick of people complaining about damage and classes. Maybe you have never been hit by pbae for over 1k, close to 2k damage, but i hvae hit blue cons for closer to 1500 than 2k, but still way over 1k... i have hit yellow cons for over 1k... maybe ill start saving screen shots of ultra rare high damage crit hits on weak yellow/blue cons to show how close to 2k i can get
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Aelhaeran
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No one class should be able to hit any other class for over 1k damage with anything. Period.
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Zxae_Sorrow
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Please do..
But first go find a level 0 mob, use your PbAe and take notice of that damage cap.
Halve it and add it to the cap damage and that's the highest you will hit ANY player and they would *have* to be grey to you.
I'll put money that it doesn't accumilate to over 1500 damage. Hell do it buffed if you like... Will not change anything... Of course this doesn't include outpost bonuses, or relic boneses which *are* rare and *which* everyone can take advatange on so they ain't nothing special.
Yes, you *might* be able to surpass 1400 Damage on a yellow con *if* the circumstances were right and you hit your hard cap. Remember though, that *yellow* would have to be a level 35, so in essence, is grey.
Breaking 1k on Blues/Green's is of course possible depending on your buffs and there's. Depending on there resists, etc etc and you ***have*** to crit.
Thing is, when we talk about this Beserker damage we're not saying "Damn me, that Rank 7 level 50 Beserker just hit my level 24 Nekkid bard for 1200 Damage!!". We're talking about equal level conflicts, against Heavey/Light/Cloth Wearers with medium - top end gear. There is a big difference to that, and you stating you can hit Blues, Greens whatever.
Taken from the Herald:
Enchanter PbAe:
Damage: 325
(This figure is modified by your specialization in the skill and your primary casting stat.)
Target: Enemy Target
Radius: 300
Damage type: Energy
Power cost: 31
Casting time: 2.5 seconds
Wizard PbAe:
Damage: 325
(This figure is modified by your specialization in the skill and your primary casting stat.)
Target: Enemy Target
Radius: 300
Damage type: Cold
Power cost: 31
Casting time: 2.5 seconds
As you can see, they delve *exactly!!* the same damage. *My* cap on a level 1 player with a PERFECT RvR crit is 1510 Damage baring Relic bonuses etc. That will *Never* happen in normal RvR encounter's.
Are you telling me you have some magical power that causes your PbAe to, when it crits hit for 1k more then mine? Are wizard's not governed by the same 50% Max Crit rule in RvR like every other class except Beserker's in vendo?
Please, provide factual information... When you do, I'll retract my comments.
[Edit: My Cap at 1510 Damage on a level 1 player getting a perfect RvR crit, is with Wp 2 and MoM 2. Also, without Wp the cap would be lower even still. And without MoM the chances to do *any* crits is lowered by a significant amount.
My Average in *real* RvR, not some fictional story of the army of greys that attacked me, is around 400-600 (on level 50's) without a crit using PbAe whilst standing inside the target. Of course those numbers fluctuate depending on resists, racial bonuses, relic bonuses, keep bonuses etc.
Going to the high end of that (600), and taking a perfect crit *these happen once every blue moon*, my cap would be 900. Since I'm guess-timating from experience I'll go out on a limb and say the highest I could expect to do if I got *very* lucky with a Near perfect - perfect crit on a level 50 with the world's worst resists would be 800 1100 (Seriously stretches the spectrum with 1100, but whateber).
Of course though.. that's assuming all of the above, plus the fact I am somehow still casting... My targets haven't moved from the PbAe frield or arn't staring me down and thus interupting me... Or.. for some reason I'm not already dead.
Once again, I have heard no arguement, nor justification from anyone why it is appropriate and balanced For Beserker's to have the chance to do the kind of damage they do, at the speeds they do it.
Yes, they loose all defense... Must suck to only have 1.5k - 2k hps buffed... To only have Determination (whatever RA's..), Ignore Pain Etc when in Vendo while pulling off 1, 2, 3 shotting Heavey Tanks, or 1 2 Shotting light tanks / casters.
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{old}-rayos-
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Runemasters are a good support caster, but as a damage dealer they stink.
I recently got a RA respec for my RM so i took him for a spin in emain.
50 base darkness, 67 modified.
Seeing nukes hit for over 300 (AFTER i dd-debuff) was rare.
Hell, i had albs in IRC paying me out about my lack of damage 
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Tessuraea
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Nice math, Zxae. /cheer
Just wanted to voice my support. People like to talk about "so-and-so hitting them for X damage" a lot, and I like to see if it's even possible.
Basically, the above poster wouldn't be wrong if he or she was PBAEing a level 1 player who was standing at the epicenter, got a max crit, was in a realm with all 3 power relics, and had a lot of wild power. In that exact pretty much impossible scenario (I'll make a level 1 character for you to duel to try it on if you like, and we can see if it ever happens) the damage would be approaching 2000.
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{old}-rayos-
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Actually, it wont be Tess.
A 325 delve pb will never hit for anywhere near 2000k in RvR. The dmg cap for a 325delve pb is 975. The absolute cap with a max crit would be 1463, unless the person has some MoM to increase the 975 cap slightly (MoM 3 and a max crit would give about 1595 damage fyi)
No amount of Relics or WP will effect this.
Oh and for what its worth, hitting cap damage and getting a full 50% crit is a 1 in a million chance. It would probably never happen in real RvR - not any significant RvR anyway (unless camping noobs in DF is significant to you)
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Skeggjold
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It's hard to ignore nerf zerk threads when there are 2 or more of them on the first page EVERY FREAKING DAY Staghorn, "bro". The point isn't if you get private messages or not, or if people agree with you. I FREAKING AGREE WITH YOU TO!!!!!! Just stop posting about it here because it does NOT A DAMN THING, NOTHING, ZILCH, ZERO, NADDA. Nothing comes from any of these posts.
Nokekula, Staghorn, the rest:
What can you do? What will posting about it here do? The same 10 people reply, "Yes verily! Nerf zerks they are overpowered!"
Then another 10 people (the same ones every time) say, "ONO zerks aren't overpowered I disagree."
Then one guy says, "Cry more noob."
It's an endless freaking cycle. NOTHING gets accomplished. Feedback Sanya. Post on the dev boards. Find a way to work a post of yours onto the test dev boards or whatever they are. I know of plenty of people who have access to them. Posting here does...guess what...ABSOLUTELY NOTHING BUT REHASH THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN. The only thing that changes is which berserker gets their name in lights in the thread each time.
What they need to freakin do is make the mother of all nerf zerk posts, and just make it a freaking sticky at the top of the page, because EVERY ONE OF THESE POSTS IS THE EXACT SAME THING. The exact same people arguing for and against. The exact same arguments.
JUST GIVE IT UP, TAKE IT ELSEWHERE, ANYTHING TO KEEP THEM AWAY FROM HERE. IF I STILL PLAYED A ZERK I"D SCREAM FOR MYTHIC TO NERF THEM JUST TO END THE ANNOYANCE OF YOUR POSTS.
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Jarvssen
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Nerf Zerkers!
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Staghorn_Moonlancer
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Skegg, your posts thus far are more worthless than anyone else’s, even those outright denying berserker damage, because they contribute nothing and shed light on nothing. You’re just wasting your time (as you accuse me of doing) by posting in this thread.
So lets resign ourselves to wasting our time and accomplishing nothing and go on with our own business. Bro.
Olorin, scale armor cannot be the reason behind insane berserker damage simply because wearers of other types of armor encounter the same amount of damage. I have a friend who also has a MP set of RF armor and he still gets ht by berserkers for 700-900 all the time. I have heard stories from plate wearers even that have been hit for this hard. While I agree that scale is indeed broken and needs to be looked at in regards to slash, it cannot be the sole reason behind insane Berserker hits.
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{old}Adrydana
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yes, im so ignorant. i know NOTHING of this game. remember, im just a FOTM n00b zerker that spams DF.. with a 200k+ RP gain a week and usually also on the i remain standing list for the week <shrugs> yes, i do suck...
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Indus_DAOC
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LOL always the same stupid denial crap since the beginning of the game.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1.Chain stunning people for 30 seconds doesn't seem fair?
Mid Healer : "Shut-up and spread out newb"
2.Scouts shooting people for 800+ damage doesn't seem fair?
Albion Scout: "Just run out of range newb"
3.Chain using clerics nuking for caster damage doesn't seem very fair?
Smite Cleric: "But it costs tons of power cry more newb"
4.Stealthers with full IP insta-heals doesn't seem very fair?
Stealthers: "But we have crap for armor cry more newb"
5.Enchanter pets nuking thru walls doesn't seem fair?
Enchanters: "But its almost always resisted cry more newb"
6.Beserkers hitting for 900+ in 2 seconds doesn't seem fair?
Beserkers: "But we are the melee realm cry more newb"
7.Animist pets nuking thru doors doesn't seem fair?
Animist: "But they only last 2 minutes cry
more newb"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If skalds got rocket launchers tomarrow they would be telling everyone "shutup and get more heat resists!" Nobody on these boards cares about game balance. Just a bunch of self-serving children. And its never gonna change.
/end rant
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Castyn
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"yes, im so ignorant. i know NOTHING of this game. remember, im just a FOTM n00b zerker that spams DF.. with a 200k+ RP gain a week and usually also on the i remain standing list for the week <shrugs> yes, i do suck... "
You should come with me to Merlin! You do not belong on this server at all! Do you sit there and have another computer up while you play pounding refresh on the Herald chanting 'i r uber' while you press your one button kill move and have erotic thoughts about what bending over a vendo would really be like?
Your RPS and IRS score are representative of one thing. You are a zerker.
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Castyn - 61 Bright Wizard
Castyn - 11L1 Mentalist of Percival
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Plebz
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Omg, i actually read this entire thread
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Cydris
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"erotic thoughts about what bending over a vendo would really be like"
Not everyone does this??
errm.. carry on...
NERF ZERKERS!!
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VedaineIvyryder
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<< You should come with me to Merlin! You do not belong on this server at all! Do you sit there and have another computer up while you play pounding refresh on the Herald chanting 'i r uber' while you press your one button kill move and have erotic thoughts about what bending over a vendo would really be like? >>
Castyn is hawt.
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Bollark
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You know, some folks are just not worth it.
<goes off in search of more coffee>
<grumps>
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Bollark - Ironbreaker
Bollark - Warrior
Bollark - Hero
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Tessuraea
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<grins at Bollark>
<lunges at Castyn and tickles him>
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Bollark
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<grins>
Sorry Tess..I wanted to leave it but common decency even extends to people like Adrydana.
Go figure.
<boggles>
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Tessuraea
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I was shocked, but my grin stands.
<hugs a Bollark>
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Cydris
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I think you should re-edit and put the old message back
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Jarvssen
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Castyn=TEH WIN
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Kowyn
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From most zerks I've talked with, their average styled hit ranges from 300-400 damage mainhand on a 3.5-4s delay.
This means that on any non vendo'd max critical, they will hit between 450-600 damage. However vendo gives them guaranteed criticals. That means it's possible for zerkers to make at least 5 swings (possibly 6 if their delay is low enough) in a row with critical hits.
Now Vendo crits range from 1-99%, which means the average should fall right around 50%, which is the same percentage as the maximum normal crit. So in those 20 seconds of Vendoing, you'll see on average several swings in a row of what would ordinarily be the max.
If those zerkers are fortunate enough to get several 99% in a row, those average 300-400 hits become 600-800. As an average. We've seen reports from actual zerkers of hits up to 1650. The average hard hit came out to 1100.
Now someone will undoubtedly say "ARCHERS CAN HIT FOR 1000+!!!" This is true. However it takes them time to set up a crit shot, it can miss, it can fumble, it can be blocked, parried and absorbed by bladeturn. You'll never see an equal con archer killing a Hero with 3 shots.
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Griod
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"If skalds got rocket launchers tomarrow they would be telling everyone "shutup and get more heat resists!"
This is about as succinct a description of human nature as I've ever seen.
/dies laughing
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Raix_DAOC
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hmmm... how does that song go again?... oh yah!
Cry me a river
(Go on and just)
Cry me a river-er
(Baby go on and just)
Cry me a river
(You can go on and just)
Cry me a river-er, yea yea
Cry me a river
(Baby go on and just)
Cry me a river-er
(Go on and just)
Cry me a river
(Cause I've already cried)
Cry me a river-er, yea yea
(Ain't gonna cry no more, yea-yea)
Cry me a river
Cry me a river, oh
Cry me a river, oh
Cry me a river, oh
Cry me a river, oh
(Cry me, cry me)
Cry me a river, oh
(Cry me, cry me)
Cry me a river, oh
(Cry me, cry me)
Cry me a river, oh
(Cry me, cry me)
Cry me a river, oh
(Cry me, cry me)
Cry me a river, oh
(Cry me, cry me)
Cry me a river
(Cry me, cry me)
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Skeggjold
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"Skegg, your posts thus far are more worthless than anyone else’s, even those outright denying berserker damage, because they contribute nothing and shed light on nothing. You’re just wasting your time (as you accuse me of doing) by posting in this thread."
Your posts shed absolutely ZERO light on anything. You honestly believe this thread sheds light on berserker damage? The sheer volume of posts about zerk damage on this board alone places the topic DIRECTLY ON THE SUNS SURFACE. Every minute detail of zerks has been gone over with a fine tooth comb. It's not needed anymore. Christ, you guys are starting to get pathetic, take it to mythic, get it off these damn boards.
"So lets resign ourselves to wasting our time and accomplishing nothing and go on with our own business. Bro."
Sorry, I'm not your "bro". However, I agree. We should both go about our business, you not coming here with this tired out topic every day, and I won't harrass people about it being played out. I'm glad we can agree.
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Kowyn
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Skegg that's wishful thinking at best. It's been proven time and time again that the only thing Mythic listens to is public outcry.
Raix let me ask you something, when Zerkers are eventually nerfed, will you be sailing down that river yourself?
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Skeggjold
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Yes Kowyn, and mythic employees read vn perc a crapload <rolls eyes>. Like I said, take it someplace else where they do listen.
P.S. boohoo'ing about zerks on this board for the past 8 months sure has accomplished alot hasn't it....
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Raix_DAOC
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Kowyn, only if you promise to stop crying. And bring facts and not the same old bullshit.
And please if you cannot stop crying, atleast cry on the right board.
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Griod
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^
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Evidence why discussing this here can only lead to frustration.
It's like arguing with a wall.
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Raix_DAOC
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Frustration?
No sorry, I find these threads pretty funny.
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Seter
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"Kowyn, only if you promise to stop crying. And bring facts and not the same old bullshit."
I thought a screenshot was pretty factual...
You people ignore the facts when they are presented.
You're the ones living in a dreamland.
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Seter - 50 Gilded Spear ML10 - Spearo Percival - Sleeping
Seter - 60 Healadin - Mug'Thol - The Ravens - Officer - Sleeping
Seter - 40 Maurader - Phoenix Throne - Born of Steel - Officer - Active
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Ankhar_BeatDominator
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Over the past few months a few things have become clear to me about the Percival server...
I started on this server long ago because the premise of a bunch of dedicated people who enjoy the game in competition with each other sounded great.
However...
Berserkers damage output over time is the most broken thing I’ve ever seen in a game. Now I don't mind you dealing obscene damage like that if it only lasts for a few seconds. If the blasted end regen of great vengeance was stripped from midgard I don't know that zerkers would pose such a problem, but a melee class that can sprint with you as you run away and hit you like a caster is..well to be honest...unbalancing. I know everyone and their mother who has been engaged by a zerker has said that, but there are ways to deal with it.
The population difference on Percival is appalling. What’s even more appalling is the lack of mana casters in hib perc. Being the "caster" realm we should have at least 65% or higher of our population being robed casters. I would be interested to find out what the actual numbers of main characters are in hib. I am routinely the only pbaoe’r in a rvr group. This is inexcusable as a hib. Pbaoe is our best way to deal damage atm. I hate to say fotm, but we absolutely have to have more mana chanters and *gasp* mana elds.
No I’m not a 5Lx or greater, but having just gotten Moc a few ranks ago it has shown itself to be quite the tool in handling all melee classes...yes even zerkers.
Please do not take this post as defending mythic's ideology in creating the zerker class and its broken additions...but they are here and we must try to find a way to deal with them...
ps.. does anyone know how to find out the populations of servers and/or realms?
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Raix_DAOC
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Seter- Theres has been screenshots posted in the pass by galroth and others showing armsmen, champions and heros doing the same type of dmg.
Whats your point?
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Shadivak_Perc
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"Seter- Theres has been screenshots posted in the pass by galroth and others showing armsmen, champions and heros doing the same type of dmg.
Whats your point?"
They swing at 6 second delay. Next?
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Raix_DAOC
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Give us plate armor, LW, polearm, or spears to a mid tank class. And I'll be satisfied with swinging at a 5-6sec delay.
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Shadivak_Perc
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That has what to do with berserker damage?
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{old}Hajj24
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Thanks for demonstrating my point Stag.
- Hajj
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Raix_DAOC
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Maybe if I break it down for you...
Armsmen - plate armor, polearm , deals alot of damage w/o frenzy and losing defense. (Main damage tank).
Berserker - studded armor, deals alot of damage only when frenzy and losing the little defense the class already has.
In trade... give zerkers chain armor, lower frenzy damage. Give warriors LW/Polearm.
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Shadivak_Perc
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"Berserker - studded armor, deals alot of damage only when frenzy and losing the little defense the class already has."
HAHAHAHHAAH! This is a joke, right?
Armsman = 34% absorb.
Berserker = 19% absorb + evade 3(15%) = 34%
Berserker has lower AF, same defense.
Berserkers are on the same hitpoint table as armsmen. Berserkers and armsmen both have access to RA's at reduced costs. Berserkers have access to dodger, and mastery of parry. Ignore pain. Avoidance of magic. Determination. etc, etc, etc. Little defense? Please.
Berserkers do nearly twice the DPS polearmsmen do, OUT OF VENDO. You've obviously never played outside of Midgard, have you?
P.S. Polearmsmen and large weapon users are USELESS against a group with bladeturn, you are not.
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Lef_Grebo
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Staghorn_Moonlancer ,
"Lef = Actually, bezerkers are historical figures too. They were highly prized warriors and were not invincible. The thing that made them so terrifying was their lack of concern for their own well being. They would work themselves up into a frenzy by throwing of their clothes, screaming, growling, and lashing at themselves with their own weapons. This was a psychological warrior, not a supernatural one, and he terrified his enemies because of his lack of concern for himself. They were very hard to beat in combat because the bezerker used an axe and thrust his body heedlessly into the foray, ignoring his own wounds.
However in large-scale battles, bezerkers were the first to die, and they died in hordes. "
Very true, and the historical Berserker also was an outcast of norse society, and ate 'magic' mushrooms prior to a battle to help him enter into his berserk fury. There are also historical testimonies of berserks doing incredible feats of strength.
But this game is not based so much on historical alagories as it is on Mythical ones. Mythic makes that quite clear. So the mythical depiction of berserks bears more influence on the class then the truely historical one.
For some historical perspective:
Snorri Sturluson ( Snorri was a real person BTW, one fo the few reliable Norse chroniclers )wrote in his Ynglinga Saga:
Odin could make his enemies in battle blind, or deaf, or panic-struck, and their weapons so blunt that they could cut no better than a willow-wand; but his own men dashed forward without armour, and became as frenzied as dogs or wolves. They chewed their shield-rims, and became as strong as bears or bulls, and slaughtered people at a single stroke, but neither fire nor iron could touch them. It was called 'going berserk'.
Also:
Berserkers, so prominent in Hrolf's Saga, are the remnants in Christian times of older stories. In pre-Christian Scandinavia, berserkers seem to have been members of cults connected with Odin in his capacity as god of warriors. Snorri Sturluson in Ynglinga Saga, recalling numerous elements of ancient lore, describes Odin's warriors in this way:
His men went to battle without armor and acted like mad dogs or wolves. They bit into their shields and were as strong as bears or bulls. They killed men, but neither fire nor iron harmed them. This madness is called berserker-fury.
The berserkers of the saga, who often appear as the core of the king's warband, are at times reminiscent of the retinue of warriors surrounding Odin and may ultimately derive from ancient bear cults. Debate has centered on the meaning of the word itself. Berserker could mean "bare shirt," that is, naked; berserkers, as a mark of ferocity and invincibility, are said to have fought without needing armor. The word, however, may also mean "bear-shirt," reflective of the shape and nature of the bear assumed by these warriors. More literally, it may refer to protective bearskins that such warriors may have worn into battle. When the "berserker rage" was upon him, a berserker was thought of as a sort of "were-bear" (or werewolf), part man, part beast, who was neither fully human nor fully animal. Although not specifically so called, Bodvar Bjarki is a berserker of sorts. He appears at Hrolf's final battle in the form of a huge bear, invulnerable to weapons. In both his invulnerability and his ability to change shape, Bodvar also displays preternatural abilities resembling those of Odinic champions.
Looking at all the data available on what the mythological abilites of berserkers where, the Daoc berserkers are actually pretty tame. As to how they perform in the game, having played on for over a year now, I can say I die alot. And I rarely achieve those mega hits that everyone seems to think are so common.
I think anyone who thinks a berserker nerf is imminent is just kidding themselves.
And anyone who thinks that berserkers are doing that kind of mega damage all the time is also a bit deranged.
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A conservative is a man who believes that nothing should be done for the first time.
- Alfred E. Wiggam
The Dude Abides...
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Kowyn
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In addition to what Shad said, you'll never see a polearm user or a spearo hitting for 700+ 4 times in a row on another tank.
Show me multiple screenshots of multiple Heros and Armsmen, of various realm ranks, hitting for 1000+. You can't because they are extremely rare or don't exist at all.
Zerkers swing almost half as fast and do more damage, and for this they sacrifice very little defense. Over 20 hits, the evade rate of the zerker will make the difference in absorb amount to one single blow. Wow, they take one extra hits worth of damage over a minute's time. How horrendous.
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Taeolen
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Better yet, show us some logs and screen shots of Armsmen hitting people for 1000+ damage with a pole arm, but swining that pole arm at 3.3 speed.
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Lef_Grebo
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Ther is one thing that seems to never sink in during these debates on balance.
Mythic does not balance classes against each other. They look to balance realms against each other. Making comparisons based on class v class is an exersice in utter futility. We might as wel ljust trash all the current classes and giver eash realm identical calls..
Generic Fighter,
Generic offensive caster
generic pet class
etc.
Its not what one clas can do vs another class.
It is what one realm as a whole can do against another.
But this is always lost on the nerf fanatics.
So carry on, as that fool on the stage, Strutting and fretting your hour upon the stage, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing....
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A conservative is a man who believes that nothing should be done for the first time.
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The Dude Abides...
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Gloom-n-Doom
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Then who are bezerkers balanced against? Other bezerkers when they duel? And don't say casters, because that's EVERY melee's weak point.
In fact, bezerkers share the same weaknesses that other melee classes do, WITHOUT being weak to other melee classes. And don't come off with your, "x class with x spec can pwn my bezerk!1!111!!" defense that many bezerkers use. The fact is, that bezerkers can kill in RvR much more often, and much quicker than any other melee class, without a significant penalty to their defense. In fact, a zerk who doesn't Frenzy, will still outdamage any of the other realms tanks classes, while hitting faster. That is overpowered.
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Lef_Grebo
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Doom and gloom,
You are missing the point.
You do NOT compare any class to any other class.
You compare how effective a REALM is vs the other REALMS.
That is how Mythic looks at balancing. If you are not sure, go ask the devs what they look at for balancing purposes.
Its not 1 v 1 or 8 v 8 or even 50 v 50. Its Realm v Realm. Over the long term.
But if that is a little above your head, then go ahead and keep on with the nerf this and nerf that cries.
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A conservative is a man who believes that nothing should be done for the first time.
- Alfred E. Wiggam
The Dude Abides...
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Gloom-n-Doom
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Lef,
I am not missing the point. Sure, it's realm versus realm. But how do you accomplish this? By class balance. How do you propose you balance a realm, if not through its classes? I am not asking to balanace bezerkers because of 1v1 performance. I am saying that their degree of brokeness is causing a REALM IMBALANCE. And due to this REALM INBALANCE, I think they should be balanced. Either that, or balance all the other tanks up to compensate, and then all the rogues, and then all the casters, and then all the support classes. Which sounds easier to you?
There is validity to class balance. Classes should be proportionally as powerful as each other, or else you have classes that are not played. Everyone pays the same 11 bucks a month to this game, they should not be penalized by which realm they play in, or which class they chose. Can we at least agree on that?
But if that's a little above your head, keep up with your Bezerkers aren't Broken thread.
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Kowyn
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Lef, then explain why archers and smite clerics were nerfed. They didn't affect realm versus realm situation so much as they did solo situations.
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Staghorn_Moonlancer
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Justifying Berserker damage by comparing it to the damage given out by polearm, LW and CS users is the weakest argument one can make. Polearm, CS and LW users are SUPPOSED to hit very high in melee, but only do so because they sacrifice speed. Berserkers do not sacrifice speed but hit harder than any LW, CS or Polearm user. On average I hit an enemy between 350-450 with my player crafted MP, 100%con barbed spear (strongest spear in the game). In duels with LW users, whether it is a sword or a hammer, they never, ever hit me for more than 500. I am not experienced as a Polearm user and rarely get hit by them so I cannot comment on their damage, but based on the comments by Armsmen, they also have similar average hits. As I have said before, I have never struck a hit over 850, and I never strike a hit on an equal leveled player for more than 450 or so, and then only rare. When I crit it is a different story, but I rarely crit, even with MOpain 2.
The fact is that Berserkers swing faster and hit harder than any other melee class/weapon/spec combination in the game and not only that but they hit harder than most mages as well, who are designed to hit the hardest. Indeed, I very much doubt that every Berserker hits for 1000 every time they swing; that was not my point. But most Berserkers do hit for 500+ even when not using Vendo, and 2h weapon users cannot do that. This is why Berserkers are broken and this is why Mythic needs to fix them.
As far as saying that Mythic only looks at how a realm fights against a realm, look, everyone knows that the only way to win relics and keeps is to have a bigger zerg. If you have the biggest zerg, no matter who is in this zerg or what class combinations there are, you will win if you out power your enemy with numbers. The only reason realms are comparatively competitive is because each realm does have a rather large pool of players at its disposal. One cannot judge the usefulness or compatibility of a single class based on how a realm in general fights with another realm. To better understand a class and to test it to see if it is overpowered, you look to the 8 on 8 battles, the smaller battles, where each side has relatively similar classes with relatively similar RAa's and so forth and where the outcome of the battle is dependant on the minute adjust ments of each class. You tally the results of each encounter, how the damage is played out, which classes live longest, kill the most, deal the least and most damage etc. and if you see a pattern, you will know how to address it.
The pattern is that more and more mid gank groups are bringing more and more berserkers with them simply because they are the best offensive weapon in the game. This morning I ran into the same mid gank group and (despite being called a liar by the very person who was in this group) they had 4 berserkers with them. The pattern is that all other classes get mowed down by berserkers because berserkers can deal out an insane amount of damage in a very short time, spam F8 /stick and bang, another enemy down.
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Lef_Grebo
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Doom,
The fact that you have a hard time tinking of how to balance the realms without comparing class v class is why your not a game designer.
Where one class in one realm is going to be stronger then the rest, another class is going to be weaker. When looking at the BIG picture, it all balances out.
Example,
Midgard has the best light tank, but the worst heavy tank.
Hibernia Has the best heavy Tank, but the worst light tank.
This is a pretty simple example, and actual balancing is going to be more indepth.
But what you do not do is say, het class A in Midgard is more powerful then class C in Albion, we better nerf down class A. becasue maybe Class A is more pwerful in oder to Balance out the fact that Class E in Midgard is less powerful in other areas.
Its all about the BIG picture.
That, in a VERY simplistic way is hwo you Blance REALMs and not Classes!
Now, you can go back to your nerf this and nerf that talk, becasue I know it makes you feel empowered.
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Lef_Grebo
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Kowyn,
Becasue they ( archers and smite clerics ) casued an imbalance in their own realms...
removing the necessity for other classses because they WERE so overpowered.
Mythic has already looked at zerker balance in the last 6 months and nerfed them down to thier current point. Mythic feels that zerkers are working as intended.
Also, actually playin in Midgard I can attest that Glooms observation on the massive increasxe in zerker population is altogether inaccurate and exaggerated.
Yes there are more zerkers, but that is more to do with the gimpness of the warrior class then the ubahness of zerkers.
And there is no shortage of Shaman, Savages, Shadowblades, etc.
Ther ye go. Now I think I am done with this altogether pointless debate. For the fact remains that everyne has already made up thier minds and no one is really listening to what anyone else is saying..
You know, all that strutting and fretting, signifying nothing...
Out.
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Seter
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First off, I've been saying that warriors should get a unique weapon to Midgard just like alb/polearm and hib/CS for a LONG time.
Second, Raix... heh, no comment, you're clueless.
Third, Lef, .... nah, I'm sick of trying to explain to the ignorant [edit] like you why zerker dmg is out of hand. Go back to sucking your momma's tit kid.
All I can say is until all you mids have been out in the field going against these zerkers, you have NOTHING to say, so just stfu.
Edit: brainless mids aren't worth getting banned over.
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Kowyn
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<<Midgard has the best light tank, but the worst heavy tank.>>
If worst meaning highest damage, then yes. But that isn't the definition of worst. Warriors do not have to sacrifice spec'd damage for defense. The others do.
<<Hibernia Has the best heavy Tank, but the worst light tank.>>
Again damage dealt doesn't signify best and worst. The Hero is a damn good heavy tank, but I see no reason balance why to label it better than the warrior.
<<But what you do not do is say, het class A in Midgard is more powerful then class C in Albion, we better nerf down class A. becasue maybe Class A is more pwerful in oder to Balance out the fact that Class E in Midgard is less powerful in other areas.>>
Clearly Zerkers do more damage than Mercs and BM's and do not suffer any more defensively than they do, and they do more damage than polearmsmen and spearos. I don't say that Zerkers should do less damage than those classes, I'm saying they shouldn't do that damage at the speed in which they do it.
<<Becasue they ( archers and smite clerics ) casued an imbalance in their own realms...>>
What imbalance in their own realm? Lack of healing? We dealt with that, it was a pain but we dealt with it. They were nerfed purely because they did too much damage and could kill without difficulty. I never heard a single Albion ever utter the phrase "God damn I wish these scouts would stop shooting the mob and just guard me!"
<<Mythic has already looked at zerker balance in the last 6 months and nerfed them down to thier current point. Mythic feels that zerkers are working as intended.>>
I doubt that. I have yet to see Mythic come out and say "We're not doing anything to the zerker because it's working as intended". Clerics were nerfed and now 6 months later they were rebalanced. Zerkers will have another come-around too.
<<Also, actually playin in Midgard I can attest that Glooms observation on the massive increasxe in zerker population is altogether inaccurate and exaggerated.>>
The 40-50 zerker population went from 126 in August to 258 in January. Doubled in 4 months. Of course that's also due to simple server growth.
<<Yes there are more zerkers, but that is more to do with the gimpness of the warrior class then the ubahness of zerkers.>>
The warrior isn't gimped, just dull.
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Raix_DAOC
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Clueless? lol...righttt.
The clueless ones are the ones who been posting here none stop about "zerkers to do much dmg" , "zerkers are overpowered" ... "Im a caster, I got 1 shoted by a zerker" etc etc etc... every week on the wrong boards.
Still!, what have you accomplish from whinning here?
Send your whines to http://vnboards.ign.com/board.asp?brd=5176
or
http://vnboards.ign.com/board.asp?brd=22205
And let them deal with you
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Kowyn
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Some of us like to discuss issues with people we play with. If you don't like reading this thread Raix, feel free not to click on it. I mean I know you're concerned with the front page real estate of the percival forums and all, but geez...
Seriously Raix, get off your high-horse. The only reason you're even posting in this thread is because you are a zerker who doesn't want to see a damage reduction. You're like France, pretending it's just for peace when in reality you're just trying to protect your oil reserves. It's understandable, I watched clerics doing the same thing before they were hit.
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OthrSixtoes
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Balanced or not, I can see how being on the receiving end of that kind of damage will make the game not fun for someone.
And DAoC seems to have a lot of things of this type, BoF+ablative chant+ABS buffs, BAoD, stacked PBT, etc, etc.
Mythic keeps on failing somewhere, carry on!
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Aramathea
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Well, as to clarify, I was more using the 2k as a reference to make a point about doing more damage than the 900 of a zerker. Yet, no one complains about that damage. That was the point i was trying to make.
No matter what anyone ever posts on these vn boards, whether positive or negative, there will always be a negative reply. In the rare instances where a negative reply is not posted, someone still calls names and uses the ever so popular, worst put down you think you are making term, Noob.
Cant we all just get along? lol... why bother
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Yoreox
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It's funny all you peeps think to insult to defend your posts. Just makes you look like an idiot first and formost.
Zerker LA damage was addressed by Mythic already and it scales up as you hit more and more. So do cry more, as basicly is the only thing Midgard has going for it in terms of melee damage, and of course not everyone is a zerker. Oh and as soon as a zerker goes zerk mode, his defense drop to crapola, so use that as a tactic. So cry more instead right? hahaha
Again if we MIDs changed into ALBs on a level basis we'd still kick your arse! Hehe
Of course our enemy wants the I WIN ALL THE FREAKN TIME button for thier shirt. I'm leet button is cramed up der arse so far on these VN boards already we can't give em another button to shove up der arse. Now can we. I mean after all you are humans types on da otherside of the screen? right?
Haha and no I don't play a zerker, but have had one. I have a Savage/Shammy/SB/Skald/RM.
What!! I have played on other servers in ALB and HIB. Yuck!! tho with them kinda buffs you peeps use to PL urselves is sickening. I can get level 20 in like 2 hours or so in Albion with them damage adds/shield. Heck I dont even need to hit most crap for me to kill it. I've played a thrust BM, a Thurg too and a Furball druid, keen eld, and elf enchanter. You Albs and Hibs have it sooo much easier than us MIDs it's sickening.
Ya what to do with them 7 different DOTs on 5 different classes you Albs have.. Ya right I'll cure them in the middle of your spamming them! uh right. Ya you drop any 2000+ hp in 15 or so seconds with them dots.. Whole groups of 2000+ hp with them.. Ya Zerkers can only hit one dude at a time.
Again, love it and eat it.. Cry More!
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Shadivak_Perc
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Oh, and Lef, if you even played in your own realm, you'd know that the best tank in the game is the Savage, HANDS DOWN. Best offense, as well as best defense. Noone plays them though, because everyone flocks to teh uber zerker to pwn, like Raix here.
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Seter
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Someone want to put Yoreox back in his cage and give him his medicine?
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Kowyn
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Yoreox just because something has been addressed doesn't mean it can't be readdressed. Just like Smite Clerics got a little loving due to overnerfing, only it happened 6 months after the fact.
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Griod
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"Where one class in one realm is going to be stronger then the rest, another class is going to be weaker. When looking at the BIG picture, it all balances out."
Edit: Yes, this could result in realm balance, but only once everyone plays the strongest classes in each realm and no one plays the weak classes.
That would mean entire classes would die out, requiring a class-respec. I'd go for that.
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Taeolen
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<<Someone want to put Yoreox back in his cage and give him his medicine?>>
The ridalin(sp) is all used up.
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Borudoc-Hellbeast
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I play mainly albion and midgard(Percival and Guinevere respectively). To be honest, I do think that berserkers are overpowered, although all I have is my own experience with a berserker in Thidranki, where, after being PA'd by a orange con Nightshade, I "pwned" him by going berserk and using styles(I was level 21). As for Albion having lots of DoTs, the populous of Albions classes that have, and use DoTs can't even be compared to the sheer number of people who play Shamans now(I consider Shamans the new "Smite" clerics, DoT, DD, Bolt, Disease... well, yeah). The fact that a light tank can, almost always one-v-one, take out a heavy tank in three styles or less(Heavy tanks are supposed to be known for the ability to absorb damage), just screams to be nerfed. On the realm balance, I can't think of any other tank who can do this, and the only other classes I can think of killing this fast, are assassins... which of course, sacrificed hits, and now IP, to be able to do what they do...
Personally, I would think Blademasters deserve the evade three much more than Berserkers do...
Just my two cents on the whole deal
---------------------------------------------
Borudoc Helbeast 41.5 Shaman -Guinevere-
Kysra 50 Necromancer -Percival-
Rikku 35 Enchantress -Lancelot-
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Josaryn
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Nice thread
Here's a thought: Place Blademasters and Mercenaries on par with Berserkers, giving them the mechanics and style damage of Left Axe, and a damage increaser on par with Frenzy.
If Berserkers are a balanced class, then this will balance the other realms' light tanks to where they should be.
If Berserkers are an overpowered class, Midgard will be calling for nerfs within a week of the patch going live.
It doesn't get any more objective than that.
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Rican_Perc
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Yeah, I'd love to see a Warrior get two-hit by a blademaster and watch the nerf cries roll in. The shoe always feels different on the other foot.
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Shadivak_Perc
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I would laugh my ass off.
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Brannigan73
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Midgard Warriors do not do less damage then Armsmen and Heros. They just dont. Every time this debate comes up that gets thrown out there like ten different times along with the famous Blademaster's can spec shield as excuses for Berzerkers insane damage. That is not a legitimate excuse for the crazy damage Berzerker's do in a small amount of time another class' percieved weakness. Anyway, if one class' weakness meant another class should be super strong considering the damage blademaster's do by all accounts I should hit people for 1000 a shot with my spear not the 350-450ish I do currently with my slowest spear which is so slow I can get up and go get a drink between attacks. :P The last thing we need by the way is Blademaster's and Mercenaries brought up to the level of Berzerkers then no one would play Armsmen or Heroes or any other tank class. There has to be some kind of middle ground between where those three classes are currently.
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Seter
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"Here's a thought: Place Blademasters and Mercenaries on par with Berserkers, giving them the mechanics and style damage of Left Axe, and a damage increaser on par with Frenzy."
Hehe, same thing would happen in alb/hib as is happening in mid. The other tank classes would become obsolete.
The only tank class that might survive would be the pallie due to the group chants and the pve abilities.
Hell, tanks are already being replaced in hib with chanter pets. <shrug>
You'd think that mid would WANT the zerker toned down and warriors given a unique weapon just to help out their own realm. Guess they are happy having one class that can demolish anything in 2 - 3 hits. Let the rest of mid go to hell.
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Sylm
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Hmm, ten pages, that's too much to read now that I've let it go for so long :P
Once my warrior reaches 50 I'm sure I would be upset if I got one or two shot by any melee class. And I'm not going to tell anybody else getting hit this hard by berserkers that they shouldn't be upset, because they should be. I have to go eat now, bye.
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Kowyn
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Solutions that would allow Zerkers to keep their current damage output:
- Switch Zerkers to cloth armor.
- Remove Evade completely from Zerkers.
- Give Blademasters 360 degree Evade 5, increase base damage by 25%.
- Give Mercenaries 360 degree Evade 4, increase base damage by 15%.
- Fix both DW and CD to be guaranteed swings.
- Decrease timers for Triplewield and Dirty Tricks to 7 minutes.
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Taeolen
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But, but LW Champs and Heroes do this kind of damage, too!
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Jarvssen
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<<- Decrease timers for Triplewield and Dirty Tricks to 7 minutes. >>
You know this won't fly because all the Zerkers will be bawling their eyes out for going vendo then having dirt thrown in their eyes.
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Kowyn
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Doesn't matter, all they need is one swing to connect to kill the Merc anyway.
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Taeolen
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Yes, but Mercs can spec shield!
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Griod
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Mercs can spec shield?!
Nerf Mercs!
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Tehrianny
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My hero does about 400-500 damage per swing on average I would say. I "have" had the big hits of over 800 a few times, and I've broken 900 once. I've never come close to doing that on a tank, and certainly not on a main tank.
I've hit a pally with no crush resist for almost 700. That was a pretty nice hit I thought. But I've had a berserker hit me for over 1100 damage. And I have 28 slash resist (18% effective)
Seems a little rediculous. I've been 2 shot by a berserker more than a couple times. It isn't uncommon. I've never even come close to 4 hitting a warrior or armsman.
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Indus_DAOC
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I really think most of these posts would disappear of at least one Beserker would have the balls to say " Yes any class hitting a even con for 800+ damage is unfair and should be fixed."
Instead we get a parade of 4 year olds telling us to "stop whining" and "You dont know how to play you class" crap.
Any dont forget my personal favorite "Beserkers are defenceless"
God you have to love that one.
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Wolfganng14
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sure reduce zerker damage..... so long as you do it at same time as you nerf BoF, BAoD, TWF, and SoS. Berzerkers are the only things keeping midgard competitive in 8v8 combat, take them out without removing those uber RAs, then you take midgard outta 8v8 fights
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Kowyn
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Wolfganng those are completely separate issues and purely speculation on your part. I have no doubt that Mid gank groups without insane uber damage would do just as well as all the current Mid gank groups who don't have zerkers in them.
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Raix_DAOC
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Shadivak if you know so much, you would have known that I played a zerker long before people screamed nerf.
But.. do what you do best. WHINE
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Coddyn
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Midgard has the most tools of any realm, but everyone plays Berserkers because they sacrifice nothing but range for their insane damage and they are ridiculously easy to play (f8, /stick, snowsquall backup doublefrost is all you have to do). Sometimes there is the "challenge" of hitting sprint when your victim does so they cannot outrun you while you continue to style on them b/c you have castable end regen.
The problem is that everyone else who plays this game and does a lot of damage sacrifices something in order that they have a weakness (Polearm armsmen and Celtic Spear heroes have a long delay and are beaten by PBT, cloth casters are in cloth with low hps and can be interrupted, archer crit shots are extremely situational and are easily nullified by PBT, assassin crit strikes are situational, and most of these don't even equal the damage done by a Berserker). Berserkers only sacrifice range, and they have no weakness. Some say that CC is a Berserker's weak point, not so with cheap purge and any decent Healer backing them up. 19% Absorb+Enhanced Evade 3+cheap IP =! weak defense.
This is the problem at hand, and this is why everyone plays Berserkers over the other damage-dealers in Midgard. To play a caster in Midgard (exempt suppression Bonedancers, i.e. the only kind of Bonedancer, who defies all norms for a cloth casters, i.e. no low hps b/c of healer pets, and no interrupts b/c their primary damage is based on a retarded instant lifetap DD) is to play a class that does less damage than a Berserker and has many weaknesses, whereas Berserkers have no weakness.
If I was Mythic, I would drop Berserker damage down to that of Mercenaries so that the only time when a Berserker does a large amount of damage quickly is when they are in Frenzy. Then, Midgard might have to rely on something more than an overpowered version of end regen and f8 /stick doublefrost n00bs charging in on speed 5. Midgard's casters might have a purpose again, beyond the PBT/nearsight bitches that Suppression RMs have become. Midgard tanks might have to assist like everyone else does. Just a thought.
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Yoreox
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/nerf albions whine
/yawn
live(or die) with Zerker damage or leave the game.
soon you will call for a Savage damage nerf right?
long as you have ur shiney I WIN ALL THE TIME because you will have no enemys to fight
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Taeolen
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Damn, Yore.
Your mom's gonna be so pissed when she sobers up long enough to realize you stopped chugging your step dad's pole, and used the last of the generator's power on your computer.
I'm serious, that trailor's gonna get cold tonight.
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Cydris
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Another Monkey Wrench towards zerker damage
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Taeolen...
you have to resort to personal attacks to defend yourself?
That's pretty sad.
Same thing I keep seeing in all these posts, is a grouped zerker, who obviously has buffs.
Where's the big hits without buffs?
Where's my zerker's 1000+ hits while zerked, with no buffs?
Nowhere. Would never happen.
Maybe Mythic should look into the way buffs are effecting classes.
If the difference between a fully buffed zerk and a nonbuffed zerk is 700 points of damage.. then I'm not seeing the problem with berserkers. I'm seeing a problem with buffs.
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Borudoc-Hellbeast
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If there was a problem with buffs, how come I have yet to see a fully buffed mercenary, hero, etc. etc. hit for 1000+. And a lot of tanks do get buffed to take more damage, ie: higher con values, abs. values... But I'm not sure how long the extra 200 hits helps against 900 damage a shot = P
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Carcharoth-
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<<<Where's the big hits without buffs?
Where's my zerker's 1000+ hits while zerked, with no buffs?
Nowhere. Would never happen.>>>
This was unbuffed...
www.theforumisdown.com/uploadfiles/0103/Disgusting2.jpg
That hit is right at 900... and could have easily been 1k+.
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Oskrud
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FIrstly some are looking at one aspect of the game 8v8.. the zerker's specialty. Lets compare a matter cabalist to a zerker during a keep defense.. the cabalist can hit many enemys for many 100's of damage each cast, the zerker can stare at the wall and wait for the final fight, where half the time get dotted through the wall and dead because of the power of ae or healer/shaman gets shield stunned dies etc.
In 8v8 if you build a group just for zerkers the group is powerful. And the zerkers are of course the center of it.
With all your bs abilities midgard has like 3 viable classes everything else is dead on arrival 8v8. Trust me i am usualy not tooo exclusionary when building groups if i dont' have shaman/2healers 3 zerkers.. 2 of which over rank 6 with tons of defensive ra's there is no point fighting 8v8. If you really seriously want to bring out the nerf bat far more hibernian and albion classes will take the beating. Zerkers are a strong mid class no doubt in the open field, hell most mid classes cannot kill people in fights i fight 8v8 vs. weak teams and i get like 6 kills because the other mids dont' have the dmg output to kill /our casters our insta dead.. no chance vs. hib casters and instas.. and no chance gainst sos.. you say ra's don't come into it then dont' talk about zerkers having purge ip deter ap etc. or thats only once every 30 mins', well so is ip and purge and they are extremely powerful.
Defending chanters is so laughable, i've played one on the dreads precisicly becasue everyone there knew how powerful they are. sometimes if not insta debuffed/cc'ed snared, stuned, and full buffed zerkers hit you daaaammmnnn hard.. btw all us zerkers that hit hard swing about 3.8-4.0 delay, chanters nuke u at like once every 2 seconds, but here is the big thing, in case you didn't notice pbaoe is 'area of effect' trust me i played one that is the real power of it. The other argument is mid has a stronger pbaoe setup its a good one and i seriously have thought of making a sm gank squad, the problem is you run into chanter team with baod its all over. If sm had baod too then yes mid would have the stronger pbaoe.
You say every team you see of mids is all zerkers and you are damn right it is. And a lot i know do that all day everyday in zerekr/healer/shaman squads and they still rarely make it into the top 25 on IRS. you look its all clerics, cause of bunker primarily and the fact the healing type classes are extremely overpowered.. hell why you think i always try for minimum 2 healers. Anotehr thing you say is oh bunker is only up rarely so doesn't count.. well i have watched your number one squad valiant glory use it then run to the pk til it refreshes day after day.
Why mids bring up bunker when you talk about nerfs is its silly to talk about nerfing zerkers until you've nerfed other far more powerful aspects of the game. How bout tone down every hib class having ae instas that interrupt so a mid can actualy play a class that casts. And if you compare zerker to merc or bm yes zerker is stronger but zerker doesn't get to go into groups with bs abilities that make me immune. Or how about a skald to a minstrel, a skald is a minstrel without good in combat chants, no pet, no ability to climb, no ae cc, no stealth, no wicked ra, but he does hav ea low level insta dd shout weee. a warrior is a low dmg armsman in chain without a powerful class ra. or a low dmg hero without soth. you asked why middies are playing zerkers?
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kirby234
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Nerf Zerkers...Nuff said.
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Tehrianny
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Hmm...no...Mids are playing zerkers because they hit harder than anything out there. And I can't believe you whine about not being able to play a Mid caster. Good grief. Runemasters and Spiritmasters have the most complete spell lines in the game, as well as great utility. Jeebus.
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Galroth_da_Bzerk
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The simple statement that Berserkers hit harder is not entirely true.
I can guarantee that in a fight where you can't land a back style on an opponent a berserkers damage potential drops thru the floor. You want to limit a beserker to low damage? Don't turn your back to him.
The big hits are with frenzy and this is for a very short duration of any battle.
And Carcharoth, you hit a 50 berserker with low crush resist for 850+ in one round with flurry as shown in a SS, but no triple wield using your backstyle. This is on crush neutral armor. It usually takes slash weak armor for me to clear 400 non crit for me with a backstyle. I believe your post said you were unbuffed. (You know the post where you undressed beserkers with your S/S BM on gaheris duels).
If beserkers were unstoppable they would also be so in one versus one. This is so easily disproven that people try and cloud the issue with big Frenzy crits.
Fix group defense modifiers and one on one RvR will equal Group RvR, there will be no difference between them. Then berserkers will be in real trouble. Just look at any duel thread for who to watch out for if that happens. It is obvious it's not berserkers.
-Edit- Great post Oskrud, welcome to VN_Percival
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Barrtok
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Someone end the madness!
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Zxae_Sorrow
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*cough* Bout time you arrived Galroth *cough*.
Question, in a group with 4 Beserker's all Assisting each other... does it really matter if you have your back turned to them or not Galroth? And if it does matter so much how do you propose to stop 1 of 4 Beserker's all on you at the same time to not get 1 or 2 + Rear Positionals on you?.
(Which I am sorry, I disagree... Ever since being hit from the front by a rank 3 Beserker with an Axe, while I have 27 Effective Slash) a little over two weeks ago)
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In Reply to Oskrud.
** Defending chanters is so laughable, i've played one on the dreads precisicly becasue everyone there knew how powerful they are.**
No-one’s defending Enchanter’s, most would like to see the heat de-buffs (primary concern with Enchanter’s) Nerfed, myself included.
** Lets compare a matter cabalist to a zerker during a keep defense.. the cabalist can hit many enemys for many 100's of damage each cast, the zerker can stare at the wall and wait for the final fight, where half the time get dotted through the wall and dead because of the power of ae or healer/shaman gets shield stunned dies etc **
Ummm ok, let’s compare Cave Shaman to a Merc then… Same deal… makes about as much sense.
*** With all your bs abilities midgard has like 3 viable classes everything else is dead on arrival 8v8. **
If that was true, then you would know how every other class feels in the game when they meet a buffed Beserker 8 on 8.
*** our casters our insta dead.. no chance vs. hib casters and instas **
Midgard is the last realm that can use the “We were out-insta’d lineâ€
How do you think other caster’s cast? You realize Mids, Albs and Hib caster’s all face the same problems with interuptions? Do mid casters not have the option of purchasing MoC like the rest of us?
***
btw all us zerkers that hit hard swing about 3.8-4.0 delay, chanters nuke u at like once every 2 seconds, but here is the big thing, in case you didn't notice pbaoe is 'area of effect' trust me i played one that is the real power of it. **
Firstly… you can
1. Chase you’re target hitting for your horrendous amounts of damage and at the same time use you’re best 2 Styles.
2. While runnin, dogding, moving, sneezing, getting casted upon, getting beat on you can attack… And continue to do your horrendous amounts of damage. Caster’s can ****not**** < ----- See the Not, its important.
3. Besides being able to do damage when we cannot, being able to do more whilst stopping us from doing ours (interuptions) I hope you realize being Insta Stunned/Mezzed whatever works both ways? You can’t swing while Mezzed… Well guess what… I cannot bloody well cast while Mezzed either. That’s all well and good except that you have goodies like Determination, Cheap Purge & Ignore Pain that makes you last one hell of a lost longer and be free to do your damage quicker.
[Going to Squeeze an Edit in here: I was actually waiting for someone... Anybody to talk about the real strength of PbAe, which it being AoE . **But** As noted above with the problems of casting.. Besides interuotions Yada Yada... It is not that hard to move *out* of the field of PbAe until said PbAe (er's) have been mezz'd/stunned or there respective MoC has worn down... Then you can go beat on there helpless butt while they try to Either A. Cast B. Run and open themselves up for what Galroth pointed out.]
** You say every team you see of mids is all zerkers and you are damn right it is. And a lot i know do that all day everyday in zerekr/healer/shaman squads **
Thankyou for at least admiting that much.
*** How bout tone down every hib class having ae instas that interrupt so a mid can actualy play a class that casts. **
Say again?
Ok, then show me the glaring discrepancy towards Hibernia having Insta’s that interupt compared to Midgard’s insta. You might find something you don’t want to know, nor accept.
** The other argument is mid has a stronger pbaoe setup its a good one and i seriously have thought of making a sm gank squad, the problem is you run into chanter team with baod its all over. If sm had baod too then yes mid would have the stronger pbaoe **
That is true enough… As it stands now though… Beserker, Beserker, Healer, Healer, Skald, Shaman, Spiritmaster, Spiritmaster. That group could very well decimate a group with BaoD or BoF up due to the outstanding damage output with the right Spec’s/RA’s/People.
I still have yet to see a response from anyone, that comes close to justifying the amount of damage Beserker’s have a **chance** to do, at the speeds they do it. If you think your other classes need help… Depending on the class, I and many others would be all for them, but a weakness in one class is by no means a justification, nor reasoning to why Beserker damage is so off scale.
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Galroth_da_Bzerk
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"I still have yet to see a response from anyone, that comes close to justifying the amount of damage Beserker’s have a **chance** to do, at the speeds they do it. If you think your other classes need help… Depending on the class, I and many others would be all for them, but a weakness in one class is by no means a justification, nor reasoning to why Beserker damage is so off scale."
Zxae if your above statement was true then Berserkers would dominate mellee duels, which they most definetly do not.
I will say it again, fix group RvR defense modifiers so that they are the same as one on one and Berserker RvR performance will start to reflect thier duel performance.
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Farlak
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"How bout tone down every hib class having ae instas that interrupt so a mid can actualy play a class that casts."
Too funny. You mean like your insta AE stun, insta AE mez, insta AE disease and insta PBAE? Not to mention you have a caster with insta lifetaps who dont need to cast.
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Zxae_Sorrow
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** Zxae if your above statement was true then Berserkers would dominate mellee duels, which they most definetly do not.
I will say it again, fix group RvR defense modifiers so that they are the same as one on one and Berserker RvR performance will start to reflect thier duel performance **
I agree, I would love it if Group / Group + Defensive modifier's were the same as one on one. And Yes I beleive Beserker damage would not be *as* big of a problem.
But what of those classes without defense?
That may solve the problem of a Sword and Board Pally, Armsman or Hero being hit for over 1k (Which I doubt it would, it would stop *some* of those shots, but not all). What of the Healer, Caster and so on classes that don't have the specable defense?
Is it ok once all defense modifier's are fixed that they still be hit for 1000 + Damage?
[Edit: To end this for now, because I have to go
Galroth, I know you and I won't have the same opinions on Beserker damage. I agree with you that Beserker's should do the most damage over time of any Mellee class.
That said..... At present, as we have seen the high scale end of Beserker's current possible damage, no matter what resists, specs, armor is too high. Whatever the solution is... at the moment the High End Beserker Damage *is* out of scale... Thus brought to these Boards with people like myself ranting, or showing Screnshots like Staghorn and many many other's because we see it as unfair.
Maybe this is a dead horse... I never have seen the problem with people discussing what other's veiw as a dead horse? Don't want to discuss it, just don't.
We want to discuss it.... Maybe rant a little to let of steam ... And Hopefully catch Mythic's attention. In the end I would hope that most Advocates for and against Beserker damage are saying what they see and have there opinions because they do *want* a fair and balanced game not an unfair advantage.]
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Galroth_da_Bzerk
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Show me the beserker that clears 1k damage without frenzy.
Other classes can.
Reduce all melle damage including crits to have a 700 cap in RvR. I believe this is very reasonable. No one will ever be "one hit", including casters, ever.
A hero that uses SOTH and IP will have ~6k hp? 2k buffed + SOTH = 3k x 2(IP) = ~6K.
Now the above hero would need to be hit by 9 capped beserker hit + crit to die. That is not including all the blocks and parries that are bound to happen in order to land 9 max'd hits.
So we are going from 2 shotting heros to ~12 shotting, (assuming 3 block or parries) not a bad deal.
Now add 9 second mellee stun to left axes rear position since no one thinks this is a big deal in the damage equation.
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Seter
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Cydris, you're right, it's just a game.
Sucks now but will be fun after the nerf
Edit: Yes Z, I'm hitting the sack so I can be up in time
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Cydris
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Calm down. It's a frickin game. Not life or death.
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{old}-rayos-
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I love it when zerkers say "hey, armsmen and heros hit for almost as hard as we do!"
but forget to mention that those classes are usuing 2h weapons while the zerker outdamages them with a 1h.
But i digress
Zerks would be fine if it wasnt for the shaman end buff. That is what brought a "powerful but limited character" into a state of overpoweredness - they removed the "imited" factor.
Make the shaman end buff a chant.
It will help a *lot* without any specific nerfs to zerks.
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Staghorn_Moonlancer
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lol, you guys are cracking me up
Lets see... what did I want to address...
Yeah Kowyn, I like your ideas to allow berserkers to keep their damage, lol. Then they might have an excuse for being able to hit so hard.
Who said that Mid had the best light tank and worst heavy tank, and Hibernia had the best heavy tank and worst light tank, and this somehow made Hibernia and Midgard balanced? This would lead one to believe that the best heavy tank in the game would be able to compete with the best light tank, right? The fact is that the "best" heavy tank in the game was rolled by the best light tank in the game simply because of damage output. This is why berserkers are broken. There is no realm balance when berserkers are involved because they are simply the best class for damage output. They compete with no other class when it comes to taking an enemy down fast, and this, even, regardless of their targets AF, racial bonuses, resists etc. Midgard Berserks may have been intended to be the best light tank, but I doubt there were intended to be the best any-tank, nay, the best any-class.
P.S. - Damn Seter, do you have a mouth! I never see this side of you in-game, lol. Not that they don't deserve it
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Cydris
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"This would lead one to believe that the best heavy tank in the game would be able to compete with the best light tank, right?"
Sure can.
Ask some of the best heavy tanks in the game.
Barrtok, Saeryn, Sloane.
Ya, this game isn't 1v1.
1v1 a zerker will lose 95% of the time.
Maybe if Mythic fixed the group bonus crap, you'd get to see how zerkers really are.
Ask Saeryn bout the time he dropped Vladimr (RR7) and Chelali (RR4) at once. Hate to always bring it up, but a gimped sword and board hero dropped two zerkers by himself. If you really think sword and board is gimped...
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Skeggjold
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'I really think most of these posts would disappear of at least one Beserker would have the balls to say " Yes any class hitting a even con for 800+ damage is unfair and should be fixed."'
Wow...I've been saying that for months kid...where have you been? There goes that theory.
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kordar
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Well after reading this, my reply will be quick an simple. Yes Zerkers do alot of damage it should be toned down, an yes there are alot of them, But before you all start crying for nerfs remember what it was like to be nerfed, and instead posting insults an whines search for a intelligent solution. The archer classes where nerfed to almost nothing we almost saw a death in a class in this game from people calling for nerfs, at times this game can be frustrating to say the least but you choose your class an play them to you best abilities. as for these posts let it go, talk to mytic an try to get a solution to your prob it may take time (like the hunter class) an all the problems may not be fixed. As for damage dealed out by other classes in this game some of which is a little overpowered to, if ya start crying for nerf get ready cause ill be the first in line with the bat to bash a good nerf in ya! nuff said
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Absolom1
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/nerf
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Raix_DAOC
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Hey!, the bot infil speaks!
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Absolom1
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whats the problem kid?
I wasnt speaking with already pwned victims
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Carcharoth-
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Galroth, you don't have to do positionals/reactionaries to hit for big damage. Really, I play a level 50 Berserker now and this crap you try to pull isn't going to slide. I 1-hit a level 50 Elf Ranger in epic with Doublefrost. Ranger Epic gives 10% crush, thus my damage is neutral to him. Even given SC'd, max resist armor... you can take 16% from my total and I still would have come close to 1-shotting him... he would sure be dead on the next swing with no chance to fight back.
http://www.theforumisdown.com/uploadfiles/0103/Ranger1shot.jpg
Really, this kind of thing isn't very defensible, and it it happens all the time. This wasn't even a good hit (I don't remember if I was buffed or not... have to go back and look at the original SS at some point).
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Staghorn_Moonlancer
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Aye Cydris, in a 1 on 1 encounter all I have to do is use my shield slam when the beserk goes gerbil and, unless I miss every one of my attacks, I will probably win.
This has always mainly been about the disbalance of the Beserker class within small groups whom support them. I have yet to see a solo Beserker (well, mainly because I rarely run to Odin's to solo, hehe)
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Raix_DAOC
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Rangers are vulenarable to crush, and in that screenshots it shows the ranger had 0% Crush resist.
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Carcharoth-
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Raix, if nothing else, you've only proven you're a moron. Of course, you perhaps could argue semantics... but he does have crush resist (as I explained in my previous post). He has ten percent crush resist from his Epic Armor. Now, effectively, that will read out as zero because of my Hammer's bonus to him. Again, though, substract 16% from the damage and it is still insane. That is an anytime style! My crit could also have been 50 points more than it was... helping to cover most of what would be lost to SC armor resists.
Would you like SS's of me snowsqualling a 50 Mercenary for 160 with BoF on (Alb chain is resistant to crush damage, and high AF)? I mean... how hard do you think I would have hit him if it wasn't up? I think I have an idea...
http://www.theforumisdown.com/uploadfiles/0103/Merc1.jpg
Here is the BoF pic...
http://www.theforumisdown.com/uploadfiles/0103/BoFSucks!.jpg
That last pic is about how hard my Blademaster styles paladins for... using a mace (BoF not active).
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Raix_DAOC
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If that wasnt a frenzy hit, then you would have a point. Don't get me wrong I stated before in this post and previous berserkers post that there damage is insane sometimes... but someone in the realm has to do it. If warriors/thanes could wield polearms or spears while zerkers wore chain and still put out the damage they do now, I would totally agree 100% they are overpowered.
Actually I would love it if they took berserker damage output down, gave us chain armor and gave Warriors or Thanes polearms/spears.
But would'nt that be the same exact thing the other two realms has?
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Staghorn_Moonlancer
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Aye Raix, that "somebody who has to do it" are called mages.
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Borudoc-Hellbeast
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Actually, that would create another cry for nerf on the berserkers part if they were given chain...
Mercenary chain-evade I
Blademaster reinforced-evade II
Berserkers(without chain change)studded-evade III
Berserkers(with change) chain-evade III
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Taeolen
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Wonder what class Raix will roll up next and suck at playing it?
Hmm, probably the next FoTM.
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Carcharoth-
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Raix, Frenzy is up FOR NEARLY EVERY FIGHT. You know, I know it, and all other other Berserkers know it as well. I don't see a point in continuing a discussion with you, but I will concede you are spot-on with one of your statements...
<<Kesrak - 50th Berserker - Isen Herra - double-frost spamming overpowered n00b.>>
Of course, you are joking, and so am I... in a way, but your arguments thus far on this thread are just as infantile as your signature.
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Raix_DAOC
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> Wonder what class Raix will roll up next and suck at playing it?
Hmm, probably the next FoTM<
Rofl, Yes I will be reolling to a Savage, WAIT!..too late I already started one.
And yes my FoTM zerker is a total n00b and he sucks just as much as my FoTM Thane lol.
Moving on to someone who has more brain then Taeolen. Carch.. I stated before about those hits are from when frenzy with a 99%crit chance. Zerks crit has already been nerfed from 50%-99% to 1%-99%. You should know that we dont crit for those big numbers eveytime we go vendo. I have seen crits as low as 60-90dmg. I do agree with you about the damage you did to the ranger for an anytime style is too much. But in most situations when a zerker goes into frenzy mode.. the FIRST thing the target does is turn around and run... that leads the zerker using the charge ability and then Snowsquall/icy brillance and then they wonder why the hell were they hit so hard.
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Skeggjold
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12 pages and not a single new thought or idea or argument.
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{old}Fredryk
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Will someone plz lock this thread? It has been going on for 12 pages and it is still the same as every other Nerf Bezerker Topic
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Fifliffl
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<<12 pages and not a single new thought or idea or argument. >>
This one time I saw a catapillar and it had 10 legs and I was like omg over powered thats 10 attacks at once!!!
Catapillar > Zerker
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Fifliffl
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To Fredryk:
How much wood could a wood chuck chuck if a wood chuck could chuck wood?
Nerf wood chucks they get through keep doors way t ofast
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Skeggjold
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Sorry, already had that thought Fifififffllflfi.
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Fifliffl
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Nerf Skegg
he stole my brain
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{old}Fredryk
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This thread can now be removed from the list of Locking due to a new topic....
Wait a Minute... the new topic doesn't match the subject
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Fifliffl
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Fredyck leaps out of the shadows and end chants you
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Brudan_Nightskye
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<peeks in without bothering to waste more hours of his life reading the whole thing> This thread is still going? Amazing.
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{old}Fredryk
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Only End chant? I'm hurt.
A Paladin playing only 1 chant is like a swiss army knife used for only its bottle opener.
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Fifliffl
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<<Only End chant? I'm hurt.
A Paladin playing only 1 chant is like a swiss army knife used for only its bottle opener. >>
Depends on how much beer you drink. Would save me lots of cig lighters and desk ends.
..
you would be amazed at how many paladins forget to chant. I was in a group with 4 yesterday and I ran out of end with them all at FP. I was confused.
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{old}Fredryk
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It bugs me when I join a group of 3 or more Paladins and then one of them says. " Sweet we have # Paladins now. Which chant do you want to play? i'll play ____" Do they not realize that if you twist
1) it really takes little effort
2) very rarely will a chant not be running, and
3) Heal chant stacks! YES it stacks, not only that you can pulse it twice in 7 seconds.
So instead of someone doing a pidly heal of 46 HP every 7 seconds they do 92, and with 3 Paladin thats 276. Yes 276 is alot more than 46.
Any how this thread is getting way off Topic :P
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Fifliffl
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<<So instead of someone doing a pidly heal of 46 HP every 7 seconds they do 92, and with 3 Paladin thats 276. Yes 276 is alot more than 46. >>
:-|
<pulls out his abacus>
46 +46 (2 pallies) = 92
46+46+46 (3 pallies) = 138
<takes off his shoes and recounts on his toes>
Am I missing something here? How the funkleblooz did you get 276
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Seter
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he has more toes than you
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{old}Fredryk
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Yes you are missing something :P As I said you can pulse heal twice in 7 seconds... So 1 Paladin is 46+46=92....
92X3=276
When you start heal chant it does the initial heal... then it heals again at the end of the pulse... then you start it back up again restarting the cycle
for example... The Big H will be me pressing heal chant and the little h will be the pulse...
H....hH.....hH....h and so on
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Fifliffl
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Little h is me hitting a zerker
Big H is the zerker hitting me
h
H
h
H
hh
HHH
<becomes a gerbil>
h
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
h
<throws sand in eyes>
<resisted>
HHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHH
hh
HHHHHHHHHHH
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Karrnock
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ROFL
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Fidelyid
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i didnt read any of the posts, i just looked at the pic
here's how i see it:
you ran from a zerker wearing armor vunerable to his/her damage type
he/she zerked, missed, snowsqualled (back positional), icy brilliance (second in chain), snowsqualled again, and used icy brilliance again as a follow up
you were stupid enough to let this hamster with an axe bigger than my..er, well, a really big axe chase you and get his or her back positional chain off two times?
I'm willing to bet almost every hit was above a 90% crit, which is extremely lucky..
now i only have one question to ask you (the poster)
are you dumb?
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Kowyn
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No he went after the Healer. If he hadn't gone after the Healer, he'd be stunned/mezzed, and the zerker would've made those hits anyway in addition to being healed during the fight.
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Taeolen
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Give it a rest, Raix. You've already proven to us what an uber d00d you are.
Rolled a Berserker because they were FOTM, like many of the other Mids did.
Now you have to try your damndest to defend the sickly overpowered class, it's human nature.
It's ok, breathe and relax. Get out into some sunshine.
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Seter
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Pretty much what I'm getting from most of the mids here is :
1. Mids deserve a class that can 1 - 3 shot any class in the game.
2. Zerker dmg is NOT out of hand, it is where it should be.
3. We don't use tactics even though we're screwed if we go after casters/support and we're screwed if we go after zerkers.
So to sum it up... we should just all sit down and get it over with .5 seconds faster when we see a zerker gank group coming?
/bird
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Fidelyid
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"1. Mids deserve a class that can 1 - 3 shot any class in the game."
bs.
zerkers do not hit this hard consistently, you're blowing this out of proportion
let's look at what zerkers would have if you took away their dmg dealing capability
1. nothing
1. nothing
3. nothing
4. armor vulnerable to the most popular damage type in the game
5. nothing
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{old}Navneimu-Furystick
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Your point being what exactly? There's already quite a few classes with just about nothing at their disposal.
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Fidelyid
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"Your point being what exactly? There's already quite a few classes with just about nothing at their disposal."
so you think there should be one more?
..
thank god we dont have you in charge of things like this..
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Seter
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Ok.....
How about this....
You take away my mediocre dmg with my spear and I have....
1. nothing
2. nothing
3. nothing
4. nothing
5. nothing
since lack of defense matters crap in rvr. Yes, I'm spec'd 50+15 parry atm so I do know what the hell I'm talking about.
So this still gives zerkers the right to do 2x - 3x my dmg even though I'm supposedly the hardest hitting tank from Hibernia?
Blow it out yer a$$
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{old}Navneimu-Furystick
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Well you're saying zerks are a one-trick pony and they're not.
As far as them not hitting for 1000 consistently I'll give you that. They do hit for 700 to 900 easily enough.
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Raix_DAOC
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This Taeloen character is pretty damn funny...
Sorry "d00d" but I have had my Berserker way before they all of the sudden became overpowered. Also I never "rerolled" to a Berserker, I made one as a alt smarty. So get your facts right before you talk.
What have you proven so far Taeloen? ... Every mid who has a Berserker alt is just some FoTM n00b? lol...your stupidity proven.
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daoclel
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so whats the HIGHEST hit ever achieved by an uber zerker? anybody got a record? take that and compare it to the other classes all time maxes (if they specc full offense) then we can see what balance is
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Indus_DAOC
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"Wow...I've been saying that for months kid...where have you been? There goes that theory."
LOL Skeggjold call me a "kid".
Your welcome "Dad"
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Kowyn
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<<so whats the HIGHEST hit ever achieved by an uber zerker?>>
When I conducted a poll, the highest damage from a zerker listed was 1650. Of course he coulda been full of it.
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Staghorn_Moonlancer
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Hey Fid, read the thread before you say something ignorant, ah, woops sorry, too late.
Read the thread and then I will pay attention to you.
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Seter
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woohoo!!!!
<blows the dust off the thread>
BACK AT IT!!!!
p.s. nerf zerkers
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