Schezza
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Why didn't they just shoot him in the foot?
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http://www.torontosun.com/2012/03/19/siu-clears-officer-in-shooting-of-escaped-hospital-patient
Short version:
Eligon allegedly walked to a convenience store, snatched two pairs of scissors and left without paying, the store clerk’s hand was cut.
The officers lined the street, walking backwards away from Eligon as he approached them with the sharp edges of the scissors.
one officer backed up into a parked vehicle causing the gap between him and Eligon to “shrink†to about three metres.
That’s when officers allegedly heard Eligon say “one of you is going to die.â€
Scott concluded the subject officer had “reasonable grounds†to fear for his life when he opened fire.
How stupid are humans?
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Syndiz
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Why didn't they just shoot him in the foot?
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if someone is running at me head on screaming that they're going to kill me (if this really happened) i am going to shoot that profanity square in the head. Why would i risk any thing else?
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UncleWalty-G
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Why didn't they just shoot him in the foot?
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Should've tazed him, bro.
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nothappyguy
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Oh my, what a tragedy.
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Schezza
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Why didn't they just shoot him in the foot?
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running???
if they got time to GO BACKWARDS, there is enough time to shoot him in the leg. besides, two bullets out of three missed, lol? must have been a thin person 
But yeah, that insane being walking with "weapons" towards already dangerous US cops, well, something like that can't be saved anyway.
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Syndiz
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Why didn't they just shoot him in the foot?
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the dude was obviously crazy.
what if he had a bomb strapped to him and they shot him in the foot 3 meters from them and he set it off?
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UncleWalty-G
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Why didn't they just shoot him in the foot?
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Schezza posted:
running???
if they got time to GO BACKWARDS, there is enough time to shoot him in the leg. besides, two bullets out of three missed, lol? must have been a thin person
But yeah, that insane being walking with "weapons" towards already dangerous US cops well, something like that can't be saved anyway.
This happened in Toronto... 
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Nsaney
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I don't have much have much sympathy for anyone coming at a cop with a weapon. Would have been idea to Taze or Mace em or something but...
Police officers are not trained to wound people. They are trained to shoot to kill. Cuts down on law suits for one thing.
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Azzhatt
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Why didn't they just shoot him in the foot?
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------“How did Mr. Eligon elope from the hospital? Should front line officers receive different training to deal with these situations? Should they be issued CEWs (conducted energy weapons)?†Scott wondered.------
Apparently the Canadian Bacon isn't equipped with Tazers?
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AudioslaveMID
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Why didn't they just shoot him in the foot?
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I think we can all agree one of the first things you learn as a kid is running with scissors is dangerous.
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Schezza
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Why didn't they just shoot him in the foot?
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UncleWalty-G posted:
Schezza posted:
running???
if they got time to GO BACKWARDS, there is enough time to shoot him in the leg. besides, two bullets out of three missed, lol? must have been a thin person
But yeah, that insane being walking with "weapons" towards already dangerous US cops well, something like that can't be saved anyway.
This happened in Toronto...
sorry
I'm from europe, so I'm not really all into this US versus Canada fights that seem to be going on. But I can follow you. It's like the austrians don't wanna get called germans because they are from Austria and not Germany. 
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Kedali-Pellinor
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I really have just about zero sympathy for these cases that pop up. I live in an area that has more than its fair share of drugs and mental illness, so it isn't too uncommon to read cases pretty much identical to this. Every time it happens, a ton of people come out of the woodworks to say cops are all bloodthirsty murderers who jump at every opportunity to kill someone. It's just retarded.
Why would anyone ever want to be a cop if it meant putting themselves in life-threatening situations but not being allowed to defend themselves? And inevitably, every single time this comes up, there are a bunch of armchair detectives who are all too happy to tell everyone how non-lethal the weapon was and that the officers were never in any danger. I sincerely doubt any of them would have the balls to say the same thing if they were the one standing there when an insane or methed out person that didn't even react to the nonlethal options officers have came at them with "just some scissors" or "just a little piece of pipe."
Here's a tip, if you don't want to get shot, don't attack police offers with potentially lethal weapons.
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ykcin89
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Why didn't they just shoot him in the foot?
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Nsaney posted:
I don't have much have much sympathy for anyone coming at a cop with a weapon. Would have been idea to Taze or Mace em or something but...
Police officers are not trained to wound people. They are trained to shoot to kill. Cuts down on law suits for one thing.
Lol they're not trained to kill...
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IjeB
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Why didn't they just shoot him in the foot?
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Nsaney posted:
I don't have much have much sympathy for anyone coming at a cop with a weapon. Would have been idea to Taze or Mace em or something but...
Police officers are not trained to wound people. They are trained to shoot to kill. Cuts down on law suits for one thing.
Wrong. The training teaches shooting to stop the threat, not shooting to kill.
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Burnflesh
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Oh no, police shot a piece of $$$$$
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ykcin89
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Why didn't they just shoot him in the foot?
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IjeB posted:
Nsaney posted:
I don't have much have much sympathy for anyone coming at a cop with a weapon. Would have been idea to Taze or Mace em or something but...
Police officers are not trained to wound people. They are trained to shoot to kill. Cuts down on law suits for one thing.
Wrong. The training teaches shooting to stop the threat, not shooting to kill.
Officer 1: " This 5 year old has a plastic knife?"
Officer 2: "Yes. Yes he does. Kill him because that's all we're trained for"
Officer 1: "We could just grab it?"
Officer 2: "We're not trained! just kill him already!"
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Nsaney
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IjeB posted:
Nsaney posted:
I don't have much have much sympathy for anyone coming at a cop with a weapon. Would have been idea to Taze or Mace em or something but...
Police officers are not trained to wound people. They are trained to shoot to kill. Cuts down on law suits for one thing.
Wrong. The training teaches shooting to stop the threat, not shooting to kill.
When I went through training we were taught to aim for the chest and pull the trigger twice. Never ever to shoot to wound.
Albeit that was about 30 years ago.
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CongoKobie
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DIE PIGS
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IjeB
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Nsaney posted:
When I went through training we were taught to aim for the chest and pull the trigger twice. Never ever to shoot to wound.
Albeit that was about 30 years ago.
It's still shoot to the center of available mass (usually the chest), but they have gone away from the "shoot twice and assess" approach and instead preach shooting until the threat is stopped... which, from my view, is likely a contributing factor in the shootings where you hear about a subject being shot 7-10+ times; by the time the officer(s) are able to recognize and react to the end of the threat, they have likely put out a heck of a lot more than 2 rounds.
As for shooting someone in the leg, that's only as effective as the subject allows it to be. Real life isn't a movie where a person flops over when they get shot, and being shot in the leg is not immediately immobilizing unless the person being shot has bought into the theatrics and allows the injury to immediately incapacitate them.
Edit: I'm assuming, since it was a police shooting, that we are dealing with handguns. It is, of course, different if we are talking rifle/shotgun.
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skiidz
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Why didn't they just shoot him in the foot?
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I'm pretty sure even thirty years ago,
They had:
Pepper Spray
Taser
Common Sense
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Cookies
Yea...
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Nsaney
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They did not have Tasers back then. The reasoning was according to my teachers. That simply there were to many lawsuits filed by people that survived police shootings. Shoot a guy in the leg and hit the kneecap or something putting them in a wheelchair or the like for the rest of their life. They often would and still do win money suing the department. A dead man can't sue.
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CongoKobie
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torontosun posted:
Scott said 12 cops in six cruisers responded to the various 911 calls
if 12 trained officers cant stop a mentally ill patent armed with scissors without killing him i dont wanna be around when a real problem arises
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soldier04
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The only time a police officer, at least where I am from can legally discharge their weapon is when the officer fears for his own life, the life of another, or there's a serious threat of permanent bodily damage or disfigurement. Officers are not allowed to take warning shots or wound someone on purpose, ever. Point being, the guy had it coming. I would of shot him too.
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McAlb
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In the UK they wouldn't even be allowed to send armed police to deal with a situation like that. Pepper spray and truncheon is how we do it. Scissors, lol, cops over here are in more danger every friday/saturday night just trying to stop the drunkards beating the crap out of each other.
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an_enchanter
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this happens every day across our police state nation
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Why didn't they just shoot him in the foot?
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Syndiz posted:
if someone is running at me head on screaming that they're going to kill me (if this really happened) i am going to shoot that profanity square in the head. Why would i risk any thing else?
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YOU SHOULDNT GO RUNNING WITH SCISSORS!!!
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Schezza posted:
How stupid are humans?
Irony.
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Elkad
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Why didn't they just shoot him in the foot?
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Tueller Drill range is 6.something meters (21 feet actually). Anything inside that and a gun doesn't keep you from getting cut. One little poke to the neck and you bleed out, no matter how many holes your buddies poke in the other guy.
Cop was cornered and at half that distance. Perp had already assaulted several people.
Personally, I think instead of trying to cordon him off, they should have immediately assaulted with tasers, mace, dogs, etc. But when they made the decision to let him control the encounter, they ended up being forced to shoot him.
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IjeB
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Why didn't they just shoot him in the foot?
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Nsaney posted:
A dead man can't sue.
But his family can. 
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Noogin
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IjeB posted:
Nsaney posted:
A dead man can't sue.
But his family can.
Not as easily by far.
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Sneakers.Matri
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Kedali-Pellinor posted:
I really have just about zero sympathy for these cases that pop up. I live in an area that has more than its fair share of drugs and mental illness, so it isn't too uncommon to read cases pretty much identical to this. Every time it happens, a ton of people come out of the woodworks to say cops are all bloodthirsty murderers who jump at every opportunity to kill someone. It's just retarded.
Why would anyone ever want to be a cop if it meant putting themselves in life-threatening situations but not being allowed to defend themselves? And inevitably, every single time this comes up, there are a bunch of armchair detectives who are all too happy to tell everyone how non-lethal the weapon was and that the officers were never in any danger. I sincerely doubt any of them would have the balls to say the same thing if they were the one standing there when an insane or methed out person that didn't even react to the nonlethal options officers have came at them with "just some scissors" or "just a little piece of pipe."
Here's a tip, if you don't want to get shot, don't attack police offers with potentially lethal weapons.
OK son, then lets give the police scissors since they are so gd life threatening, I mean if the bad guys have scissors then the good guys must have them too right.
Some guy walks to you and your partner with a scissor when you got a bulletproof vest that has kevlar innit wich also is stab proof then you laugh at the guy then you club him down with your stick.
Ohh but no, your way of thinking makes much more sense.
Oh and lol at getting backed into a parked car.
The whole story is so retarded its almost funny. Dumbass person meets dumbass cops.
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Burnflesh
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Why didn't they just shoot him in the foot?
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IjeB posted:
Nsaney posted:
A dead man can't sue.
But his family can.
Ya and the cops can lie their asses off, as they do
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andynNIN
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Why didn't they just shoot him in the foot?
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Schezza posted:
UncleWalty-G posted:
Schezza posted:
running???
if they got time to GO BACKWARDS, there is enough time to shoot him in the leg. besides, two bullets out of three missed, lol? must have been a thin person
But yeah, that insane being walking with "weapons" towards already dangerous US cops well, something like that can't be saved anyway.
This happened in Toronto...
sorry
I'm from europe, so I'm not really all into this US versus Canada fights that seem to be going on. But I can follow you. It's like the austrians don't wanna get called germans because they are from Austria and not Germany.
wasnt hitler born in austria..? anyhow... shootings happen often in aus, and the old joke victorian police was 'bang, bang, bang... freeze'. but really... if a officer of the law asks you to do something, you do it. its just common sense.
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Yackety_Yack
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Well the training is,
1) Suspect has a weapon, draw gun.
2) Suspect not armed but violent, draw taser.
3) Suspect not armed but agitated, draw pepper spray.
4) Suspect not armed or violent/agitated, draw pen and fine book.
I don't fault the officers for what they did, but i am upset they missed twice.
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Maceric
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Why didn't they just shoot him in the foot?
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Thirty years ago most cops didn't have Tasers or pepper spray though some carried CS in a canister (military style teargas a chemical which can cause nasty burns to the skin) and were in the midst of transitioning from revolers to semiautos.....then it was as nsaney said shoot two and assess....you were taught to shoot for the center of mass as it offers the largest target area and greatest chance of stopping the target. Now it is shoot until the target goes down. In reading the article tasers here were not an option as the officers did not carry them. Many officers in large cities don't because of the cost to outfit all the officers just isn't in the budget. I am from New Hampshire and in Manchester our largest city they are just now looking at the need for them vs the cost after an officer was shoot last week. I am retired after 30 plus years in law enfocement and the last town I worked for had a fairly large budget and did have tasers pepperball guns and several other less lethal choices. Would the outcome have been different? It is hard to tell however we did have an incident just prior to me retiring where a mentally ill person came at 2 officers with scissors and was tazed and peppersprayed multiple times before they stopped charging and resisting and were arrested. The problem is two fold. First officers just do not have the extra training to deal with (or at times even recognize until after the fact) mentally ill persons. Secondly an enraged mentally ill person can act much like a person on PCP where pain doesn't bother them at all. As to the officers missing two of three times a gunfight on the streets (or in this case a gun and scissors fight) is not like shooting on the range...the adrenelin starts to flow and the fine motor control goes out the window....meaning for one the hands start to shake...the breathing gets ragged and so on....the first department I worked for ran a stress fire course....outside at night cruiser lights and sirens going and the instructor popping blanks off randomly. You checked you weapon and holstered it the ran 50 yards to your first station dropped and did 5 quick pushups stood drew and fired....you had a very limited amount of time to fire off x number of rounds reload and holster then wash rinse and repeat at the next station...you were scored on the target plus staying with in the allotted firing time at each station...you lost one point for every second you were over time.....it was interesting and approximated a real gun fight except the targets didn't fire back...
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Blinks90
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Why didn't they just shoot him in the foot?
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Burnflesh posted:
IjeB posted:
Nsaney posted:
A dead man can't sue.
But his family can.
Ya and the cops can lie their asses off, as they do
This has nothing to do with anyone lieing about anything. The fact is if they shoot the criminal in the knee and he is permanently disabled then he will sue and get a large settlement because it is cheaper for the city to settle then fight it in court. Plus the criminal will get public assistance for the rest of his life because he is disabled now. So just shot to kill and save everyone alot of money and time.
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Agokart
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Why didn't they just shoot him in the foot?
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1. Retard strength
2. Yall are straight stupid.
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Smufr
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Why didn't they just shoot him in the foot?
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Well, it took them 3 shots to hit him in the chest.
I can only imagine how many it would have taken to hit his foot.
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ricjeid
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The cops seem to come off fine in this encounter tbh; I'm more worried about the "cops r so dum" keyboard warriors in this thread.
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Yackety_Yack
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Why didn't they just shoot him in the foot?
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Smufr posted:
Well, it took them 3 shots to hit him in the chest.
I can only imagine how many it would have taken to hit his foot.
The only thing i can think of is, the first 2 shot's were aimed to injure shoulder/arm/leg. At 10 feet i just can't see missing any other way, unless the guy was a ninja.
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Schezza
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Why didn't they just shoot him in the foot?
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andynNIN posted:
wasnt hitler born in austria..? anyhow... shootings happen often in aus, and the old joke victorian police was 'bang, bang, bang... freeze'. but really... if a officer of the law asks you to do something, you do it. its just common sense.
ya, he was born in austria and wandered off to germany.
Yackety_Yack posted:
The only thing i can think of is, the first 2 shot's were aimed to injure shoulder/arm/leg. At 10 feet i just can't see missing any other way, unless the guy was a ninja.
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CarlSpacklerGalunga
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Why didn't they just shoot him in the foot?
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6...Suspect was armed and not responding to commands to stand down.
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Mastara
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Why didn't they just shoot him in the foot?
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The guy was trying to trim their nails of course! Naturally the cops are at fault for killing an innocent man lol
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jojobonojo
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Why didn't they just shoot him in the foot?
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I like how everyone is an expert marksman in here and can shoot someones feet while moving and have no concern for ricocheting bullets.
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skribbix
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Why didn't they just shoot him in the foot?
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Schezza posted:
UncleWalty-G posted:
Schezza posted:
running???
if they got time to GO BACKWARDS, there is enough time to shoot him in the leg. besides, two bullets out of three missed, lol? must have been a thin person
But yeah, that insane being walking with "weapons" towards already dangerous US cops well, something like that can't be saved anyway.
This happened in Toronto...
sorry
I'm from europe, so I'm not really all into this US versus Canada fights that seem to be going on. But I can follow you. It's like the austrians don't wanna get called germans because they are from Austria and not Germany.
It's not about some rivalry. It's about simple geography.
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Schezza
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Why didn't they just shoot him in the foot?
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jojobonojo posted:
I like how everyone is an expert marksman in here and can shoot someones feet while moving and have no concern for ricocheting bullets.
I actually meant the legs not the feet. If you shoot the feet, you're probably destroying em. But yes, you have a point. I'm sure if I were to take a hit somewhere not fatal, my adrenaline would be enough for me to continue... and ricochets are bad as well, but shooting the torso is as dangerous as shooting the organs themselves, isn't it?
So, we get back to the point. If you are versus the police, you either seriously pick up a gun and uuh "defend yourself", or you let get yourself arrested; but don't try some half-hearted stupid profanity like that dude did, because that's just mad. Right? 
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koolbreez
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Why didn't they just shoot him in the foot?
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CongoKobie posted:
DIE PIGS
lolol
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imapawn
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Heh.
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Agokart
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Why didn't they just shoot him in the foot?
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jojobonojo posted:
I like how everyone is an expert marksman in here and can shoot someones feet while moving and have no concern for ricocheting bullets.
They pay me to be.
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Nsaney
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Why didn't they just shoot him in the foot?
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Agokart posted:
1. Retard strength
2. Yall are straight stupid.
Okay, that made me literally LOL.
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DemonicXH
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Page
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redlegOIF
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Why didn't they just shoot him in the foot?
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Schezza posted:
http://www.torontosun.com/2012/03/19/siu-clears-officer-in-shooting-of-escaped-hospital-patient
Short version:
Eligon allegedly walked to a convenience store, snatched two pairs of scissors and left without paying, the store clerk’s hand was cut.
The officers lined the street, walking backwards away from Eligon as he approached them with the sharp edges of the scissors.
one officer backed up into a parked vehicle causing the gap between him and Eligon to “shrink†to about three metres.
That’s when officers allegedly heard Eligon say “one of you is going to die.â€
Scott concluded the subject officer had “reasonable grounds†to fear for his life when he opened fire.
How stupid are humans?
What if the cop shoots him in the foot but he still keeps coming, which is possible...
You don't shoot to minimize damage, you shoot to save your life or someone elses.
There is a risk that you can't fully immobilize the person, I'd prefer not to take the chance if someone is coming at me with the expressed purpose to kill me.
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Hurley_FF
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Why didn't they just shoot him in the foot?
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CongoKobie posted:
torontosun posted:
Scott said 12 cops in six cruisers responded to the various 911 calls
if 12 trained officers cant stop a mentally ill patent armed with scissors without killing him i dont wanna be around when a real problem arises
If the police aren't allowed to use guns on a person threatening their life, I don't want to be around now.
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AngharadMacsen
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Why didn't they just shoot him in the foot?
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Syndiz posted:
if someone is running at me head on screaming that they're going to kill me (if this really happened) i am going to shoot that profanity square in the head. Why would i risk any thing else?
If you're trying to avoid risk, might want to reconsider that headshot, and shoot him in center of mass like you're supposed to.
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CrzyHawk
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Cops did the right thing. Moral of story: Don't come at cops with a weapon, period.
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an_enchanter
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Why didn't they just shoot him in the foot?
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yep
if the cops come up to you the best thing you can do is to just lie on pretend to be dead and dont move
anything can be taken as an aggressive action and they can shoot you dead right then
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Blachloch1
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Why didn't they just shoot him in the foot?
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Schezza posted:
http://www.torontosun.com/2012/03/19/siu-clears-officer-in-shooting-of-escaped-hospital-patient
Short version:
Eligon allegedly walked to a convenience store, snatched two pairs of scissors and left without paying, the store clerk’s hand was cut.
The officers lined the street, walking backwards away from Eligon as he approached them with the sharp edges of the scissors.
one officer backed up into a parked vehicle causing the gap between him and Eligon to “shrink†to about three metres.
That’s when officers allegedly heard Eligon say “one of you is going to die.â€
Scott concluded the subject officer had “reasonable grounds†to fear for his life when he opened fire.
How stupid are humans?
Don't be an idiot and threaten someone's life if you don't want shot. I'd have done the same thing.
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Novoal7
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Why didn't they just shoot him in the foot?
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ricjeid posted:
The cops seem to come off fine in this encounter tbh; I'm more worried about the "cops r so dum" keyboard warriors in this thread.
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PhearIsHere
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Why didn't they just shoot him in the foot?
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CongoKobie posted:
torontosun posted:
Scott said 12 cops in six cruisers responded to the various 911 calls
if 12 trained officers cant stop a mentally ill patent armed with scissors without killing him i dont wanna be around when a real problem arises
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an_enchanter
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Why didn't they just shoot him in the foot?
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cops dont shoot people in the foot because then there would be someone to dispute what they're saying
just like in self defense, the best thing you can do is just to shoot someone dead so the only thing that matters is what you say
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FUK DA POLICE 
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FBI_OO
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Why didn't they just shoot him in the foot?
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redlegOIF posted:
Schezza posted:
http://www.torontosun.com/2012/03/19/siu-clears-officer-in-shooting-of-escaped-hospital-patient
Short version:
Eligon allegedly walked to a convenience store, snatched two pairs of scissors and left without paying, the store clerk’s hand was cut.
The officers lined the street, walking backwards away from Eligon as he approached them with the sharp edges of the scissors.
one officer backed up into a parked vehicle causing the gap between him and Eligon to “shrink†to about three metres.
That’s when officers allegedly heard Eligon say “one of you is going to die.â€
Scott concluded the subject officer had “reasonable grounds†to fear for his life when he opened fire.
How stupid are humans?
What if the cop shoots him in the foot but he still keeps coming, which is possible...
You don't shoot to minimize damage, you shoot to save your life or someone elses.
There is a risk that you can't fully immobilize the person, I'd prefer not to take the chance if someone is coming at me with the expressed purpose to kill me.
Isnt that why cops have a taser guns ? Should be the perfect weapon to immobilize a target w/o having to fire their gun.
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THE_LAWL_LAWL_LAWL
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IjeB posted:
Nsaney posted:
I don't have much have much sympathy for anyone coming at a cop with a weapon. Would have been idea to Taze or Mace em or something but...
Police officers are not trained to wound people. They are trained to shoot to kill. Cuts down on law suits for one thing.
Wrong. The training teaches shooting to stop the threat, not shooting to kill.
It would be referred to as "neutralizing the threat." You always aim for the chest as that gives you the highest chances of hitting the target. You shoot till they start falling. Unless someone is seriously hopped up on drugs, a person will begin to drop after the first or second shot.
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Gurrier posted:
FUK DA POLICE
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Karizzma7
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Lawsuit's baby, it's all about the lawsuit's. Dead peeps cant sue. And yes I know their familys can but its not the same
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Why didn't they just shoot him in the foot?
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ykcin89 posted:
IjeB posted:
Nsaney posted:
I don't have much have much sympathy for anyone coming at a cop with a weapon. Would have been idea to Taze or Mace em or something but...
Police officers are not trained to wound people. They are trained to shoot to kill. Cuts down on law suits for one thing.
Wrong. The training teaches shooting to stop the threat, not shooting to kill.
Officer 1: " This 5 year old has a plastic knife?"
Officer 2: "Yes. Yes he does. Kill him because that's all we're trained for"
Officer 1: "We could just grab it?"
Officer 2: "We're not trained! just kill him already!"
Why didn't they just shoot the kid in the foot?
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