Groucho48
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Here’s a little story for you. Once upon a time, one of the greatest threats to the lives of American children was the common household refrigerator. This was because refrigerators closed with big honking latches that couldn’t be unlatched from the inside. Kids, being creatures with underdeveloped brains as a rule, climbed inside them to pretend to be glazed hams or something, and they couldn’t get out and suffocated.
.
So people got upset about this, as Americans are wont to do when children die and are American, and the refrigerator manufacturers quickly formed a commission dedicated to informing consumers that a commission had been formed. They did not redesign the refrigerators. They resisted any government attempts to force them to redesign the refrigerators. They used a set of excuses that are so standard they should be sold on Amazon as the Corporate Excuses Starter Kit.
.
• The problem is not really a problem.
• To the extent that the problem is a problem, the problem is not our problem.
• You know who we blame? The victims. If they weren’t so dumb, they wouldn’t have been victimized.
• The problem cannot be solved.
• To the extent that the problem can be solved, it can’t be solved by us.
• To the extent the problem can be solved by us, it can’t be solved by us without destroying the United States economy and plunging us into a despotic nightmare of government mandates and low-quality products.
.
While Big Refrigerator was a powerful lobby, it was nowhere near as powerful as Big Oil is today, so these excuses were seen as a pathetic attempt to maintain the status quo, rather than a wise pronouncement from those able to see past the greed and power-lust of a monolithic conspiracy of, um, research scientists, and the Refrigerator Safety Act was passed.
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Fridge makers were required to do what they claimed was impossible: create a refrigerator that does not kill children.
.
They put their best minds to the task, because they had to, and came up with an incredible invention called a “magnet.†Turns out if you line the doors with magnets, then the door stays closed and dumb little kids can get out if they need to. Go fig.
.
By the way, no child in the U.S. has died from suffocating in a fridge designed after the Refrigerator Safety Act was passed. Not bad for impossible.
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The horror! The horror!
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Thugoneous
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That's how your lineage survived.
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Lyken-P
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Bowlartz
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Big Government, doing one thing right for every two hundred it does horribly wrong.
Those refrigerator companies would have changed their tune regardless of that law over the past 30 years due to massive litigation as many industries have done.
So should we give blood sucking lawyers some pat on the bat?
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Lyndrek
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If I had been a refrigerator ceo at the time I would have patented the magnet idea and driven all my competitors out of business with the slogan "We care, your children are safe with us."
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Tych2
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We need the government for some things. Always keep in mind that for every story like this all someone has to do it point out the government runs the DMV.
Also when was this story? '50s?
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Ashmaele
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Bowlartz posted:
Big Government, doing one thing right for every two hundred it does horribly wrong.
Those refrigerator companies would have changed their tune regardless of that law over the past 30 years due to massive litigation as many industries have done.
So should we give blood sucking lawyers some pat on the bat?
Maybe not, but we should definitely wait until some lives have been lost and for some cases to work their way through the courts before doing something about it.
ETA: Of course we also need to enact tort reform so that we can't sue anyone and kill jerbs.
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IMHO
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You can always tell who the conservatives are in threads likes these.... 
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Brother_Tempus
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Bowlartz posted:
Big Government, doing one thing right for every two hundred it does horribly wrong.
Those refrigerator companies would have changed their tune regardless of that law over the past 30 years due to massive litigation as many industries have done.
This
Look at the "pink slime" debacle .. People voiced thier anger and now the maker of "pink slime" [ which was government approved by the way] has now shut down its factory and government did not even get involved
What Groucho doesn't cover in his diarrhea-ladenled worship of government monologue was how much money was stolen from taxpayer to make government move on this "issue"
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theredkay1
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How much?
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Brother_Tempus
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theredkay1 posted:
How much?
Ask Groucho, this is his thread, the fact that government had no authority to regulate refrigerators has not even been addressed yet
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_Gronk_
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You can easily watch Big Governmnet at work as they post on the Outpost, on the taxpayers' dime.
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Tych2
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Brother_Tempus posted:
theredkay1 posted:
How much?
Ask Groucho, this is his thread, the fact that government had no authority to regulate refrigerators has not even been addressed yet
The government has the authority the majority of the citizens give them. It sucks for you to be on the fringe.
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Sin_of_Onin
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Actually if you believe it will take litigation then you basically want the more costly course of action in terms of lives lost, cost to government, cost to producers, and cost to consumers.
Congrats on being an idiot.
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theredkay1
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Brother_Tempus posted:
theredkay1 posted:
How much?
Ask Groucho, this is his thread, the fact that government had no authority to regulate refrigerators has not even been addressed yet
This is your main issue (outside of goldbuggery) and you cant provide even a hint of a response to the most basic question. Totally surprising. 
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Brother_Tempus
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Tych2 posted:
Brother_Tempus posted:
theredkay1 posted:
How much?
Ask Groucho, this is his thread, the fact that government had no authority to regulate refrigerators has not even been addressed yet
The government has the authority the majority of the citizens give them
no, we are a Constitutional Republic, which means government is granted limted pwers by the Constitution, not the people. So if it is not listed in the Constitution, than government is not allowed to do it
The Founders understood the perils and flaws with Democracy
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Sin_of_Onin
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The Founding Father's owned slaves. It is hard to appeal to their understanding so completely. It helps if you make a coherent argument yourself. You sound like a bible thumper.
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theredkay1
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The real big government success are the Clean Air Act and the various EPA rules on the use of lead for those looking for something more recent.
The cost of implementing these rules were large. The benefits however are mind-boggling.
The benefits of these two, especially the lead rules, might be the biggest underreported story of government action in recent history.
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Brother_Tempus
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
The Founding Father's owned slaves.
your point is what? Other than erecting a strawman?
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theredkay1
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The Founders posted:
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare (except for kids being killed by magic ice boxes, that power is withheld) of the United States.
Most people miss the invisible ink portions of the Constitution.
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Brother_Tempus
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theredkay1 posted:
The real big government success are the Clean Air Act
Yes, quite the success ... A lot of jobs went overseas, the poor saw prices for energy and goods rise as businesses that did not or could mot go overseas transferred the costs incurred to meet compliance to their customers
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Kjarhall
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Brother_Tempus posted:
Tych2 posted:
Brother_Tempus posted:
[quote=theredkay1]How much?
Ask Groucho, this is his thread, the fact that government had no authority to regulate refrigerators has not even been addressed yet
The government has the authority the majority of the citizens give them
no, we are a Constitutional Republic, which means government is granted limted pwers by the Constitution, not the people. So if it is not listed in the Constitution, than government is not allowed to do it
The Founders understood the perils and flaws with Democracy[/quote]
The people can change the Constitution. Therefore the citizens give the gov't their authority. Even dumb ones like you.
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Sin_of_Onin
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Brother_Tempus posted:
Sin_of_Onin posted:
The Founding Father's owned slaves.
your point is what? Other than erecting a strawman?
I was demonstrating the problems with appealing to authority.
Since your entire position involves you making an appeal to an authority (that you don't even understand) it is worth pointing out IMO.
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Brother_Tempus
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theredkay1 posted:
The Founders posted:
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare (except for kids being killed by magic ice boxes, that power is withheld) of the United States.
Most people miss the invisible ink portions of the Constitution.
like you
The rest of the statement in the Constitution where individuals like Red deliberately omit
To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States or in any Department or Officer thereof
So taxation for powers granted to government by the Constitution [ not the people ] while still immoral, is legal
However for legislation like the Clean Air Act which is not granted to the government by the Constitution, not only is the legislation illegal but so is the taxation to fund it
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Brother_Tempus
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Kjarhall posted:
people can change the Constitution. Therefore the citizens give the gov't their authority. Even dumb ones like you.
They sure can, Article V, tells everyone how to do it. But since I don't see refrigerators it clean air I. The Constitution, those acts by Congress are illegal
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Tych2
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Brother_Tempus posted:
no, we are a Constitutional Republic, which means government is granted limted pwers by the Constitution, not the people. So if it is not listed in the Constitution, than government is not allowed to do it
The Founders understood the perils and flaws with Democracy
 Change the Constitution. We've done it before.
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Yukishiro1
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Groucho48 posted:
So people got upset about this, as Americans are wont to do when children die and are American
That bit cracked me up because it's so true.
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theredkay1
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Brother_Tempus posted:
theredkay1 posted:
The real big government success are the Clean Air Act. The cost of implementing these rules were large. The benefits however are mind-boggling.
The costs were large. Cant we just ignore the benefits? Its easier that way.
Not really.
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Brother_Tempus
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Tych2 posted:
Brother_Tempus posted:
no, we are a Constitutional Republic, which means government is granted limted pwers by the Constitution, not the people. So if it is not listed in the Constitution, than government is not allowed to do it
The Founders understood the perils and flaws with Democracy
Change the Constitution. We've done it before.
You're to slow, we already addressed this. Please keep up
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
Actually if you believe it will take litigation then you basically want the more costly course of action in terms of lives lost, cost to government, cost to producers, and cost to consumers.
Congrats on being an idiot.
No kidding. People who think litigation is a good, cost-effective way to cure societal problems are mouthbreathers and what is wrong with America.
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Brother_Tempus
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theredkay1 posted:
Brother_Tempus posted:
theredkay1 posted:
The real big government success are the Clean Air Act. The cost of implementing these rules were large. The benefits however are mind-boggling.
The costs were large. Cant we just ignore the benefits? Its easier that way.
Not really.
The road to hell/tyranny is paved with such good intentions like the ones you are trying promote
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The war on good intentions continues.
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theredkay1
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Brother_Tempus posted:
theredkay1 posted:
The Founders posted:
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare (except for kids being killed by magic ice boxes, that power is withheld) of the United States.
Most people miss the invisible ink portions of the Constitution.
NOTME! I SEE IT CLEARLY WITH MY INVISOGOLD GLASSES!
What exactly would general welfare mean if we are excluding being killed by private enterprises drive for profits?
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theredkay1
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Brother_Tempus posted:
Hell is a place where we have the ability to choose life over a potential profit opportunity for an individual. BE AFRAID!
sounds awful.
I guess your utopia is....Somalia?
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Tych2
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Brother_Tempus posted:
Tych2 posted:
Brother_Tempus posted:
no, we are a Constitutional Republic, which means government is granted limted pwers by the Constitution, not the people. So if it is not listed in the Constitution, than government is not allowed to do it
The Founders understood the perils and flaws with Democracy
Change the Constitution. We've done it before.
You're to slow, we already addressed this. Please keep up
Hey I am busy here working. I decide when to fit you in. Stop being butthurt because you are fringe. Accept it and move on.
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
The war on good intentions continues.
As long as those good intentions comes at the cost of life, liberty, and property of the individual w/o consent .. The battle will continue
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Sin_of_Onin
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Brother_Tempus posted:
Sin_of_Onin posted:
The war on good intentions continues.
As long as those good intentions comes at the cost of life, liberty, and property of the individual w/o consent .. The battle will continue
So it is not actually good intentions that you are worried about. I didn't think so.
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Yukishiro1
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Brother_Tempus posted:
The battle will continue
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Brother_Tempus
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
Brother_Tempus posted:
Sin_of_Onin posted:
The war on good intentions continues.
As long as those good intentions comes at the cost of life, liberty, and property of the individual w/o consent .. The battle will continue
So it is not actually good intentions that you are worried about.
nope just the cost and the lack of consent .. That's why the free market works, it requires consent and the environment of competition to produce the best solution
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Sin_of_Onin
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The free market is largely a contest between those who own the means of production and those who produce. Capitalism is based off the premise that those who own the means of production dictate to those who don't.
The idea that this produces the "best" result is naive and ignorant. It produces results that are best for those who own the means of production because that it what it is set up to do.
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_Gimpzilla_
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Brother_Tempus posted:
Sin_of_Onin posted:
Brother_Tempus posted:
[quote=Sin_of_Onin]The war on good intentions continues.
As long as those good intentions comes at the cost of life, liberty, and property of the individual w/o consent .. The battle will continue
So it is not actually good intentions that you are worried about.
nope just the cost and the lack of consent .. That's why the free market works, it requires consent and the environment of competition to produce the best solution[/quote]
If you put the same energy into getting your family some insurance that you put into being a retard on the internets you'd have far fewer problems in life.
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Cause you're not quite evil enough. You're semi-evil, you're quasi-evil, you're the margarine of evil,
you're the diet coke of evil, just one calorie, not "evil" enough.
Destroying small towns near you...
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Brother_Tempus
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
The free market is largely a contest between supply and demand
nothing more
http://the-classic-liberal.com/free-market-defined/
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You win ACF, dude - Osmenthe
BT is usually right - Onslaught
i think we need more BT on page 1 - FighterUSAF
Yep, BT is right - Aerlinthian
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Brother_Tempus
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_Gimpzilla_ posted:
Brother_Tempus posted:
Sin_of_Onin posted:
[quote=Brother_Tempus] as long as those good intentions comes at the cost of life, liberty, and property of the individual w/o consent .. The battle will continue
So it is not actually good intentions that you are worried about.
nope just the cost and the lack of consent .. That's why the free market works, it requires consent and the environment you put the same energy into getting your family some insurance that you put into being a retard on the internets you'd have far fewer problems in life.
Is that a threat?
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BT is usually right - Onslaught
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Yukishiro1
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threatening you would be like threatening the dog pewp on the bottom of your shoe. why would anyone do that?
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Sin_of_Onin
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Brother_Tempus posted:
Sin_of_Onin posted:
The free market is largely a contest between supply and demand
nothing more
http://the-classic-liberal.com/free-market-defined/
Once again we are not just talking free market but capitalism itself. Now reread my previous post and maybe you can catch up on what was said.
A Free Market does not always lead to a perfect market which is the real goal.
A free market does not always lead to long term results that are the best.
Capitalism is not built to produce the best results for all, it is built to benefit those who own the means of production. Capitalism favors the capitalist and in a world where the capitalist can move their capital and has no interest in preserving the welfare of a nation the fact that what is best for the nation and what is best for the capitalist diverge more and more.
I know this is like putting pearls before swine so I doubt you will be able to respond with anything that isn’t worthy of a /facepalm.
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Kjarhall
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Brother_Tempus posted:
Tych2 posted:
Brother_Tempus posted:
no, we are a Constitutional Republic, which means government is granted limted pwers by the Constitution, not the people. So if it is not listed in the Constitution, than government is not allowed to do it
The Founders understood the perils and flaws with Democracy
Change the Constitution. We've done it before.
You're to slow, we already addressed this. Please keep up
It was worth repeating to emphasize that you were wrong, and pretty dumb.
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Brother_Tempus
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
Brother_Tempus posted:
Sin_of_Onin posted:
The free market is largely a contest between supply and demand
nothing more
http://the-classic-liberal.com/free-market-defined/
Once again we are not just talking free market but capitalism itself.
no we were talking about the free market [ free market capitalism]
You are now trying to change the subject
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BT is usually right - Onslaught
i think we need more BT on page 1 - FighterUSAF
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Sin_of_Onin
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/facepalm
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F is for Fake-believe
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DemonicXH
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
Brother_Tempus posted:
Sin_of_Onin posted:
The free market is largely a contest between supply and demand
nothing more
http://the-classic-liberal.com/free-market-defined/
Once again we are not just talking free market but capitalism itself. Now reread my previous post and maybe you can catch up on what was said.
A Free Market does not always lead to a perfect market which is the real goal.
A free market does not always lead to long term results that are the best.
Capitalism is not built to produce the best results for all, it is built to benefit those who own the means of production. Capitalism favors the capitalist and in a world where the capitalist can move their capital and has no interest in preserving the welfare of a nation the fact that what is best for the nation and what is best for the capitalist diverge more and more.
I know this is like putting pearls before swine so I doubt you will be able to respond with anything that isn’t worthy of a /facepalm.
In your opinion what's the better answer to capitalism?
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Sin_of_Onin
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It depends on how bad it gets but eventually the US may have no choice but to be a major owner of the means of production.
Until then the basic system of mixing capitalism and government intervention can work.
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theredkay1
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Brother_Tempus posted:
The free market is largely a contest between supply and demand
nothing more
http://the-classic-liberal.com/free-market-defined/
If I demand your stuff, how will supply/demand curves resolve this?
If the anticipated loss value of me punching you in the face is greater than the value of your stuff, you will gladly give it to me and consider it a market success.
If the anticipated loss is lower, but poorly estimated, you will have no stuff and a broken face. But again, this is a market success as this greater loss will give you incentive to become a better estimator in the future and by improving your own capital (knowledge) you will have better outcomes in the future. Market success!
In the long run this will cause you to bring fewer goods into the market place to reduce your losses every time I come around. Prices will rise and the value of going to the market to exchange goods/services is lower for purchasers since prices are higher and fewer goods are available. So we have higher prices, lower profit margins, fewer transactions and more sub-optimal trades/exchanges. Everyone is a little poorer and a little less happy (except for me). The reduced liklihood of optimal trades makes working less attractive and some people reduce their workload slowing overall growth.
FREE MARKET MAGIC!
While a police force would alter some of these market outcomes for the betterment of producers and consumers....it also represents hell.
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Eager_Igraine
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
Capitalism is not built to produce the best results for all, it is built to benefit those who own the means of production. Capitalism favors the capitalist and in a world where the capitalist can move their capital and has no interest in preserving the welfare of a nation the fact that what is best for the nation and what is best for the capitalist diverge more and more.
This does seem to be an economic challenge that has grown dramatically in recent decades. 
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Fist_de_Yuma
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I'm sure that the simple fix to this problem became a complicated government fix along the way. All people needed to do was take the doors off of discared ones and/or teach their children not to go inside one. Sad that children died. I almost lost several friends when they pulled an open trunk of a car on them. They were found after a few hours, thank god. Even today people die over simple things that no one tought would be a problem. People forget what it was like when they were kids. I had to find that out over time because I do remmeber. I though that just because I remember that everyone did.
Kids do stupit things and need to be watched and taught. The last thing we need is some stupid liberal using this as an example of how great our government is.
I had a mother and father to boss me around (and now a wife). I don't need the government to pile on as well.
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Sin_of_Onin
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Our Government also killed a bunch of Nazis. I say between killing Nazis and saving kids from refigerators our government is pretty damn cool.
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Yukishiro1
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Fist_de_Yuma posted:
Kids do stupit things and need to be watched and taught. The last thing we need is for the government to get companies to make products that don't kill kids needlessly!
Very convincing argument. 
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