Seething199
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is socialized medicine. what is the limit of the amount of people covered in one group that switches if from awesome to zomg communism?
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ZigmundZag
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When it is administered by the government instead of the employer.
That's an easy one, and I'm not even an RWN.
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paulg_68
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Seething199 posted:
is socialized medicine. what is the limit of the amount of people covered in one group that switches if from awesome to zomg communism?
As soon as you start forcing people to participate.
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Seething199
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so a completely acceptable alternative to socialized medicine at a large scale is socialized medicine at a small scale and socialized medicine to pay for the ER visits of people without socialized medicine?
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ZigmundZag
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Because then people could quit their jerbs if they really didn't want health care. Or something.
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paulg_68
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Seething199 posted:
so a completely acceptable alternative to socialized medicine at a large scale is socialized medicine at a small scale and socialized medicine to pay for the ER visits of people without socialized medicine?
Just make whatever program you want and let people opt out of it and do their own thing.
Why are socialists only happy when they get to force stuff on everyone else?
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Seething199
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how does it make sense to opt out when someone still has to pay the bill? why wouldn't everyone opt out and just let the magical money fairy pay the hospitals?
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paulg_68
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Pay what bill? If you opt out you pay for your own or you get your own insurance.
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Fat_wong
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paulg_68 posted:
Pay what bill? You give them a fake name, and then the magical money fairy pays later.
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Fat_wong
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i feel dirty for participating in anything touched by paul :/
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paulg_68
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Oh are you talking about the emergency room scam?
If you want that system you can have it but I'd opt out of that too.
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paulg_68
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Fat_wong posted:
i feel dirty for participating in anything touched by paul :/
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GrilledCheez
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actually forcing either side to do things against their interests is what makes it a bad idea IMO.
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Aerlinthian
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The entire problem originates with government illegally and immorally forcing entities to provide goods and services.
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ZigmundZag
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Aerlinthian posted:
The entire problem originates with people illegally and immorally taking goods and services that the government has to pay for.
I agree! If uninsured and underinsured people would stop going to the hospital every time their lives are threatened, it would make the whole thing much easier. Unfortunately you can't get people to stop seeking help when they're dying, and telling doctors to turn people away because they might not be able to pay is unethical.
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Aerlinthian
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Changing what someone says doesn't help your case.
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paulg_68
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@ZZ
You think the government pays back the hospital for the emergency room services they provide to people who don't pay?
They don't. The government forces the hospitals to provide that service as a form of charity.
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sweeny_comodore
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paulg_68 posted:
@ZZ
You think the government pays back the hospital for the emergency room services they provide to people who don't pay?
They don't. The government forces the hospitals to provide that service as a form of charity.
LOL
what a tard
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ZigmundZag
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paulg_68 posted:
@ZZ
You think the government pays back the hospital for the emergency room services they provide to people who don't pay?
They don't. The government forces the hospitals to provide that service as a form of charity.
@PG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disproportionate_share_hospital
Even for the hospitals that have to eat the loss, who do you think pays for it? I'm surprised I have to explain this to such an intrepid free marketeer as yourself.
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Groucho48
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Right up until Obamacare, folks who refused, for whatever reason, to have health insurance were labeled by the right as leeches who needed to be compelled to pay for the services they were currently stealing from hard-working Real Americans.
As soon as mandates were part of Obamacare, they all did a complete 180.
I'm surprised Republicans aren't all wearing neck-braces from that.
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paulg_68
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ZigmundZag posted:
Even for the hospitals that have to eat the loss, who do you think pays for it?
They pass on the cost to their paying customers.
I guess a portion of their paying customers get their insurance through the government but certainly not all as you implied.
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paulg_68
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Groucho48 posted:
Right up until Obamacare, folks who refused, for whatever reason, to have health insurance were labeled by the right as leeches who needed to be compelled to pay for the services they were currently stealing from hard-working Real Americans.
As soon as mandates were part of Obamacare, they all did a complete 180.
I've never heard anyone on the right label someone as a leech for not having insurance. Can you cite a single instance?
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Groucho48
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Gingrich...
We believe that there should be must-carry, that everybody should have health insurance, or if you’re an absolute libertarian, we would allow you to post a bond, but we would not allow people to be “free riders†failing to insure themselves and then showing up in the emergency room with no means of payment. If you have must carry, then the insurance companies have told us that we can have must-issue, and you will therefore have a system in which you don’t have to worry about cherry-picking and maneuvering.
Heritage Foundation
This mandate is based on two important principles. First, that health care protection is a responsibility of individuals, not businesses. Thus to the extent that anybody should be required to provide coverage to a family, the household mandate assumes that it is the family that carries the first responsibility. Second, it assumes that there is an implicit contract between households and society, based on the notion that health insurance is not like other forms of insurance protection. If a young man wrecks his Porsche and has not had the foresight to obtain insurance, we may commiserate but society feels no obligation to repair his car. But health care is different. If a man is struck down by a heart attack in the street, Americans will care for him whether or not he has insurance. If we find that he has spent his money on other things rather than insurance, we may be angry but we will not deny him services—even if that means more prudent citizens end up paying the tab.
A mandate on individuals recognizes this implicit contract. Society does feel a moral obligation to insure that its citizens do not suffer from the unavailability of health care. But on the other hand, each household has the obligation, to the extent it is able, to avoid placing demands on society by protecting itself…
A mandate on households certainly would force those with adequate means to obtain insurance protection, which would end the problem of middle-class "free riders" on society's sense of obligation.
Romney
"[W]e established incentives for those who were uninsured to buy insurance. Using tax penalties, as we did, or tax credits, as others have proposed, encourages 'free riders' to take responsibility for themselves, rather than pass their medical costs on others."
Free riders = leeches.
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ZigmundZag
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paulg_68 posted:
ZigmundZag posted:
Even for the hospitals that have to eat the loss, who do you think pays for it?
They pass on the cost to their paying customers.
I guess a portion of their paying customers get their insurance through the government but certainly not all as you implied.
My point in referring to the goverment's role was to point out Aer's stupidity. In the end, the uninsured raise rates for everyone, whether it's through increased government spending or increased health care costs.
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