Kjarhall
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Dear Mormons: You can't convert dead people
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http://www.newser.com/story/140235/mormons-baptize-anne-frank.html
"The Mormon Church last weekend appears to have once again baptized Anne Frank, defying an agreement with Jewish leaders to refrain from posthumously baptizing Jews in general and Holocaust figures in particular. Former Mormon Church member Helen Radkey discovered the baptism on a Mormons-only database used to chart genealogy and submit names of dead people to be posthumously baptized, the Huffington Post reports.
This isn't the first time the church has tried to claim Frank—she's been submitted at least a dozen times before. But the attempts are especially egregious because Mormons had promised Jewish leaders they would confine such baptisms to their direct ancestors, and Frank had no children whatsoever. Mormons have attempted to baptize other Holocaust victims as well. The database recently, for instance, listed Elie Wiesel as "ready" for posthumous baptism, even though Wiesel is alive and has campaigned against the practice."
Crazy crazy, but they're still Christians! 
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Koneg
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Dear Mormons: You can't convert dead people
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Kjarhall posted:
Crazy crazy, but they're still Christians!
I don't see it as particularly crazy. Mormon's are huge believers in a person's right to choose. Their baptism-for-the-dead belief is completely in line with that, which is perhaps why people have such a difficult time understanding it.
They believe that everyone should have the opportunity to choose whether or not to be baptised.
They believe that those who never got that choice in life should still have that opportunity in the afterlife. They baptise proxies in their name believing that the soul of that person can still choose to accept the baptism, or not.
So if they baptise Anne Frank it doesn't mean Anne Frank's soul has been forcibly converted to Christianity in the afterlife - but that Anne Frank's soul has been given the opportunity to choose to accept it, or not.
/shrug
People make way too big a deal out of it.
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Seething199
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what an incredible crock that is.
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Yukishiro1
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Who cares?
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Tych2
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Dear Mormons: You can't convert dead people
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I think people are much to focused on Mormons, but they ARE Christians.
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imaloon1
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Dear Mormons: You can't convert dead people
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The Mormon's do. It's tied to a bunch of other whackjob stuff, not just the "right to choose" crap. It allows those that "converted" the dead to achieve a higher level of celestial being, and other crap like that.
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Yukishiro1
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Well obviously the mormons care or they wouldn't do it.
Why does anyone else care what the mormons do? If the mormons want to go around insisting my great-grandma is a mormon they can do that. It doesn't particularly bother me. I would just shake my head the same way I do when I hear the guy on the street corner preaching about how we have to all repent and join his church because the apocalypse is coming tomorrow.
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_Enkidu_
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Dear Mormons: You can't convert dead people
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It's just more crazy piled on top of the other crazy. Everyone is just making this stuff up as they go along, it's just hilarious to see anyone take it seriously.
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Eager_Igraine
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Dear Mormons: You can't convert dead people
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Well obviously the mormons care or they wouldn't do it.
Why does anyone else care what the mormons do? If the mormons want to go around insisting my great-grandma is a mormon they can do that. It doesn't particularly bother me. I would just shake my head the same way I do when I hear the guy on the street corner preaching about how we have to all repent and join his church because the apocalypse is coming tomorrow.
Some folks might find it rather bad if they discovered the Mormon Church was claiming successful conversions of dead non-Mormons, especially if the Church had already made several agreements to not do that very thing.
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Groucho48
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Dear Mormons: You can't convert dead people
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I think people care because the Mormons are basically saying..we think your grandfather was living a false religion all his life and so we are offering him an opportunity to correct his lifelong mistake.
It's probably twice as galling if your ancestor died for his or her religion.
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Yukishiro1
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I dunno. I don't see why they would care. Crazy people say crazy things all the time. The Mormons are doing something they think is helping your dead relatives. I have trouble getting angry about that. I don't believe in their nonsense so why would I really care? If they want to baptize my dead great-grandfather and tell me he's saved it doesn't really imapct me at all.
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__Bonk__
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Crazy and non Christian
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NuEM
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Someone forgot to inform the Morons that I already converted all of those people.
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Seething199
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Dear Mormons: You can't convert dead people
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Yukishiro1 posted:
I dunno. I don't see why they would care. Crazy people say crazy things all the time. The Mormons are doing something they think is helping your dead relatives. I have trouble getting angry about that. I don't believe in their nonsense so why would I really care? If they want to baptize my dead great-grandfather and tell me he's saved it doesn't really imapct me at all.
it's insulting. you don't care because you don't care about your religion. if you died for the cause of being a bay area hipster and someone tried to make you an icon for redneck catfish grabbling posthumously, it may bum your hipster kids out.
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_Enkidu_
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I'm not sure baptism for the dead or the living has any extra crazy. Both are pretty much in whackadoodleville. 
It's like monotheists arguing over who they are praying to. Some say it's all the same god and others say it's not!
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NuEM
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You mean I can troll thousands of people by roleplaying that I converted someone? Awesome!
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Groucho48
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Dear Mormons: You can't convert dead people
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Yukishiro1 posted:
I dunno. I don't see why they would care. Crazy people say crazy things all the time. The Mormons are doing something they think is helping your dead relatives. I have trouble getting angry about that. I don't believe in their nonsense so why would I really care? If they want to baptize my dead great-grandfather and tell me he's saved it doesn't really imapct me at all.
Well, it doesn't bother me particularly, as I'm not religious. But, if you are religious, I can see where the message they are sending would be annoying to say the least.
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DemonicXH
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Dear Mormons: You can't convert dead people
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Who cares?
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Yukishiro1
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Dear Mormons: You can't convert dead people
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Seething199 posted:
it's insulting. you don't care because you don't care about your religion.
Why would I care either way? If I cared about my religion why would I care what some nutjob said about his religion? I don't believe in his religion so why would I think he's right when he says my great-grandfather is now a saved Mormon? I don't see how it's any different than hearing someone say I'm going to hell because I'm not a member of that person's religion. If I don't believe in his religion why would it bother me that he's saying that?
I actually see this as much less offensive because they are actually trying to do something they see as helping. I would be more offended by them preaching fire and brimstone at me than telling me they saved my great-grandfather. The latter is at least totally harmless.
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Koneg
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Dear Mormons: You can't convert dead people
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Eager_Igraine posted:
Some folks might find it rather bad if they discovered the Mormon Church was claiming successful conversions of dead non-Mormons
Uhm, they're not converting anyone, or even trying to.
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Bonzoboy1
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They are doing it out of compassion, they are trying to make sure the souls are saved, if the souls are already saved it or the dead folks don't believe does it really matter?
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Yukishiro1
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Dear Mormons: You can't convert dead people
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Mormons posted:
We're going to give your great-grandfather the chance to save himself if he wants to be saved!
Me posted:
Well I don't know about that - that sounds like nonsense to me. But if you're right my great-grandfather can presumably choose that for himself. It's not really my business. It's not like you're digging up his bones or anything, right?
Easily Offended People posted:
OMG HOW DARE YOU TRY TO DO SOMETHING YOU THINK IS HELPING MY DEAD RELATIVE!!!11
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Koneg
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Dear Mormons: You can't convert dead people
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Mormons posted:
We're going to give your great-grandfather the chance to save himself if he wants to be saved!
Me posted:
Well I don't know about that - that sounds like nonsense to me. But if you're right my great-grandfather can presumably choose that for himself. It's not really my business. It's not like you're digging up his bones or anything, right?
Easily Offended People posted:
OMG HOW DARE YOU TRY TO DO SOMETHING YOU THINK IS HELPING MY DEAD RELATIVE!!!11
As much as it pains me to say it... yea, you're right. (There, now you can add that to your sig  ).
That's pretty much the whole thing in a nutshell.
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Eithne_Boadicea
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I think people are upset about because the Mormon church fell all over themselves apologizing and promising that it wouldn't happen again... and then they did it anyway. People don't like being lied to.
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Moe_Nox
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Has anyone here tried to convert dead people? Then there is no empirical evidence to suggest its unpossible!
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Bonzoboy1
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Moe_Nox posted:
Has anyone here tried to convert dead people? Then there is no empirical evidence to suggest its unpossible!
Would that be necromancy?
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Mastara
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I dont believe they are Christians. Not at all.
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Kjarhall
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Koneg posted:
Kjarhall posted:
Crazy crazy, but they're still Christians!
I don't see it as particularly crazy. Mormon's are huge believers in a person's right to choose. Their baptism-for-the-dead belief is completely in line with that, which is perhaps why people have such a difficult time understanding it.
They believe that everyone should have the opportunity to choose whether or not to be baptised.
They believe that those who never got that choice in life should still have that opportunity in the afterlife. They baptise proxies in their name believing that the soul of that person can still choose to accept the baptism, or not.
So if they baptise Anne Frank it doesn't mean Anne Frank's soul has been forcibly converted to Christianity in the afterlife - but that Anne Frank's soul has been given the opportunity to choose to accept it, or not.
/shrug
People make way too big a deal out of it.
That's dumb. Dead people can't choose to decline wanting the ceremony done on them. Whether they can "choose" to accept it in the afterlife is just an excuse to get around it. It's not about forcible conversion, it's an intrusion into family privacy and respect for their choice in religion.
I'm not religious at all, but i can see why people would be peeved if someone was going to the cemetery and performing rituals on their loved ones, unasked.
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Yukishiro1
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Why do you have any more right to your dead parents than they do? It's ok if you perform stuff on your dead parents, but not if some random person does? What sense does that make?
If the Mormons are right they're giving your parent a choice they wouldn't otherwise have. If they're wrong they're doing nothing at all. So who cares?
It is certainly a lot less distburing than saying the typical fire and brimstone and infidels burning in hell forever stuff many religions like to preach.
I mean if they're digging up the bones or something sure that's going too far. I don't think they even go to the grave. My understanding was it was all done remotely.
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the_great_ontex
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DemonicXH posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
Who cares?
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Kjarhall
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Why do you have any more right to your dead parents than they do? It's ok if you perform stuff on your dead parents, but not if some random person does? What sense does that make?
Because they're my parents, and i've followed their stated wishes. I don't remember a clause in their will that said "Please have Mormons retrobaptize me after i'm dead". It's really pretty simple.
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Ptilk
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It's a central tenet of their belief system to do this.
The only part that is interesting is that they said they would stop doing something they believe is vital, then kept doing it anyway.
It's not even that interesting based on that aspect of the story, because religions do that all the time. It's sorta required to do stuff they promise others they wont in most religions. Adds that authentic feeling of "fighting against the powers of evil" and all that. Secret ceremonies and practices make it easier to keep the members excited and feeling special.
This particular "super-secret, undercover, ninja" practice is fairly benign and boring however. At least they didn't go back on a promise to stop ass raping children like some other sects of Christianity have done. 
In short, anyone who cares about this "issue" needs to lead a more interesting life.
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PhillsburyBandit
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the_great_ontex posted:
DemonicXH posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
Who cares?
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NuEM
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Kjarhall posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
Why do you have any more right to your dead parents than they do? It's ok if you perform stuff on your dead parents, but not if some random person does? What sense does that make?
Because they're my parents, and i've followed their stated wishes. I don't remember a clause in their will that said "Please have Mormons retrobaptize me after i'm dead". It's really pretty simple.
I already retrobaptized your dead parents. I hope it doesn't annoy you too much. 
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Kjarhall
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Nope, couldn't care less, have fun with that.
Discussing a topic doesn't mean you're invested in it.
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AzureTyger
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Who cares?
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SoBaKi
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Koneg posted:
Yes, it is crazy, but it's a sane crazy.
/shrug
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SoBaKi
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Mastara posted:
I dont believe they are Christians. They should be killed.
That would be your faith's MO.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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__Bonk__ posted:
Crazy and non Christian
Or... crazy and therefore totally Christian.
Could be either one.
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NuEM
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Subject:
Dear Mormons: You can't convert dead people
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Kjarhall posted:
Nope, couldn't care less, have fun with that.
Discussing a topic doesn't mean you're invested in it.
Damnit! Be /affected! 
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Yukishiro1
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Subject:
Dear Mormons: You can't convert dead people
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Kjarhall posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
Why do you have any more right to your dead parents than they do? It's ok if you perform stuff on your dead parents, but not if some random person does? What sense does that make?
Because they're my parents, and i've followed their stated wishes. I don't remember a clause in their will that said "Please have Mormons retrobaptize me after i'm dead". It's really pretty simple.
But what if you hadn't? Then is it open season on the retrobaptizing?
They think they're doing your parent a favor. At worst, they're doing nothing at all except wasting their own time.
I am pretty sure if your parent's soul is still around somewhere they really wouldn't care, and who knows, they might be very grateful.
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GrymmDAOC
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Dear Mormons: You can't convert dead people
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Its no crazier than believing a small tribe of bandits and nomads was specially chosen by an omnipotent being to be his people, or that we can achieve a higher state of consciousness by chanting syllables, or that humans have inherent rights.
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Now speccing 2h sword IRL.
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Moe_Nox
Title: In Moe We Trust
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Dear Mormons: You can't convert dead people
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GrymmDAOC posted:
Its no crazier than believing a small tribe of bandits and nomads was specially chosen by an omnipotent being to be his people
ACORN?
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The Nanny State cometh Currency should be bacon cheeseburgers and blow jobs... - Reese Life at the Outpost: http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1771556
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