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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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The thread about "real" versus "fake" jewelery got me thinking... some people won't buy mined gemstones because of the slave like conditions the miners endure, and the moral cost of the diamond. However, recent criticism of Apple and other companies has focused on the inhumane conditions facing the 430,000+ workers at the Foxconn factories in Chengdu and Shenzhen China. It is speculated that nearly every iPad and iPhone are assembled by hand in this one factory, as well as ATI motherboards and video cards.
The conditions there are bad. Dangerous working, long hours, and low pay. At least one worker has died after working a 30+ hour shift, and the high rise dormitories the workers live in have had nets installed to prevent the epidemic of suicides amongst the workers. You might think China has no laws protecting workers, and you would be wrong. However, these laws aren't enforced by corrupt government officials, and companies like Apple don't seem interested in using their leverage to improve conditions at the factories they exploit. You'd think Apple, the company that has raked in more profits than any US company ever, the biggest company in the world, and a company sitting on 100billion+ dollars could easily improve the plight of workers in these factories at a nominal cost to their overall profit margin, yet they don't.
Some links if you are interested:
http://www.cnn.com/2012/02/06/world/asia/china-apple-foxconn-worker/
http://money.cnn.com/video/technology/2012/02/06/t-ts-apple-foxconn-worker.cnnmoney/
http://www.cnn.com/2012/02/06/world/asia/foxconn-worker-difficulties/?hpt=hp_c1
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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i dont buy anything unless i know exactly how all resources were acquired except for gas.
then again...my wife does all the purchasing 
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ArchrikerHG
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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i've never bought an ATI piece or an ipad/ipod...but that's mostly due to the fact that the competitors are usually better than ATI and I'm too poor to buy Apple crap.
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Kordirn
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Subject:
If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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While Foxconn is bad, I can't really say me buying a Motorola driod is better than buying an iphone. I have no idea how the conditions are for workers that make most of the products I buy sadly.
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-Rando-
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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Kordirn posted:
While Foxconn is bad, I can't really say me buying a Motorola driod is better than buying an iphone. I have no idea how the conditions are for workers that make most of the products I buy sadly.
Well, there's a reason for that. The reason companies like to produce cheap products in countries with authoritarian governments is that the journalists who would report on unsafe or exploitative conditions are censored, and the gross abuses get covered up. It's only been the hard work of a few western reporters that has uncovered the Foxconn working conditions.
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Kordirn
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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Remember foxconn also makes components for the 360 as well.
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Hawkson
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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*shrug*
Conflict diamonds are diamonds.
Just because you don't buy them, or the Foxconn components doesn't mean others will not buy them too.
Therefore, one person not buying them has no impact.
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-Rando-
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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Kordirn posted:
Remember foxconn also makes components for the 360 as well.
Yeah, it's difficult to know where all the components in your various products come from.
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Tipztoe
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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so when are we supposed to interfere with other country's domestic policies?
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aon_mixed
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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foxconn makes pretty much everything that is solid-state based (at the core component level)
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-Rando-
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Subject:
If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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Hawkson posted:
*shrug*
Conflict diamonds are diamonds.
Just because you don't buy them, or the Foxconn components doesn't mean others will not buy them too.
Therefore, one person not buying them has no impact.
Actually, there has been pressure by a lot of diamond importers and sellers to not buy diamonds from conflict areas, and consumers have shown a willingness to be more informed about where their diamonds come from. It's kind of like fair trade coffee and locally sourced/organic food, where informed consumers are willing to vote with their wallet in order to promote social change.
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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this is giving me the urge to go shopping
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TheUnholyGhost
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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I only care about Americans.
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notmforce2k
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Subject:
If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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The Daily Show had an excellent piece (pseudo-expose) on Foxconn a couple of weeks ago. Seems like more pub has been rolling in since then.
Just horrible.
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Brother_Tempus
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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anyone using US dollars is using "blood/conflict money". The actions of government taint all industries and services because of its inherent evil nature for it relies in the immoral use of force instead of profit to get things done
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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I just burned all my money in case there was any blood on it.
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HeartView
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Subject:
If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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aon_mixed posted:
foxconn makes pretty much everything that is solid-state based (at the core component level)
This. They are the largest manufacturer of electronics in China.
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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I go out of my way to buy products that were made under deplorable conditions.
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Anebriated
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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Hawkson posted:
*shrug*
Conflict diamonds are diamonds.
Just because you don't buy them, or the Foxconn components doesn't mean others will not buy them too.
Therefore, one person not buying them has no impact.
a rationalization that only serves to shirk your own personal responsibility for the consequences of your behavior. being a consumer imparts responsibility.
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Tipztoe
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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the same people who abhor blood diamonds have no problem with illegals, and not giving them the same working conditions and compensation afforded to regular citizens.
makes no sense.
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TickyAtack
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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The more people that died for my phone the better. Makes my phone seem special, and any time I get down about my first world problems I just think of the many that died so sprint could drop my calls affordably.
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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Tipztoe posted:
the same people who abhor blood diamonds have no problem with illegals, and not giving them the same working conditions and compensation afforded to regular citizens.
makes no sense.
Who doesn't? I absolutely think that illegal immigrants should be protected by all worker protection laws. After all, if it costs the same to hire a legal versus illegal immigrant, why would a company take the risk of hiring an illegal and facing fines?
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Tai-Daishar_MT
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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It's all well and good to be concerned over the conditions of factories in China but until the core business practice of making a profit changes, nothing will change. Chinese manufacturing has greatly leapfrogged over anything we are capable of doing here in the US (or anywhere else for that matter). Tech companies make their biggest profits over the ability to deliver new technologies/enhancements to the market as quickly as possible. The SmartPhone/Tablet markets are prime examples. If you can't deliver a new phone/tablet with extra bling each year, you are falling behind. Chinese manufaturers like Foxconn have proven to have the ability to adapt to this rapidly changing industry and deliver millions of units seemingly overnight. You just can't get that anywhere else for almost any price, let alone the low prices China does it for.
While I don't like the conditions any more than the next guy, I still see the masses camping out overnight to buy the next shiny new toy so I can only assume the masses don't particularly care.
Edit: Funny thing is I remember when Apple fans considered Apple, and themselves by extension, as the trendy cool kids that despised the man and wanted to save whales, trees, and the polar ice cap. They painted Microsoft as the epitomy of corporate greed as well as the devil. My how things have changed, unless of course you ask those same Apple fans who will swear to your face nothing has changed.
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-january-16-2012/fear-factory
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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Foxconn builds components for more than a few major electronics manufacturers.
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Anebriated
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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Tai-Daishar_MT posted:
It's all well and good to be concerned over the conditions of factories in China but until the core business practice of making a profit changes, nothing will change.
um, there is already a mechanism for changing things: it's called consumer choice. if people stood firmly on their own principles, if they listened to the feeling in their head that tells them something is wrong and acted accordingly by not giving their money to the companies perpetrating the wrong then things would change. we all know this.
the real barrier is that boycotting something is difficult, costly and requires some thought. you have to be informed, and willing to draw the line. it's a difficult decision to make. to say, "i won't buy this ipad because of the working conditions i've heard about" is a lot to ask because it's such a nifty product. being informed is time consuming in and of itself!
the real reason why nothing will change is because people continue to avoid the difficult decisions. it's easy to lose sight of your own personal responsibility when everyone else is doing it. it's easy to reason that one person won't make a difference. it's easy to be uninformed.
your attitudes are toxic.
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akula_girl
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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*shrug*
Conflict diamonds are diamonds.
Just because you don't buy them, or the Foxconn components doesn't mean others will not buy them too.
Therefore, one person not buying them has no impact.
____________________________________________________________________________________________
That's why it STARTS with one person. Obviously, they try to recruit everyone into buying elsewhere with better conditions.
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Axispipe
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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ignorance is bliss
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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faux outrage is a wonderful emotion
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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absolutely!
to the two above me!
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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Bat_Avenger posted:
faux outrage is a wonderful emotion
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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There is a reason why consumer products are made over there, its cheaper. There is low pay, no enforceable safety rules(osha), environmental regulations(epa) or worker rights.
but no one cares as long as they get the newest flat screen tv or smart phone at a cheapest price possible.
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Tipztoe
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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we didn't demand corporations outsource to other countries.
they had a choice, pay execs less or outsource.
fact.
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Hawkson
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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Anebriated posted:
a rationalization that only serves to shirk your own personal responsibility for the consequences of your behavior. being a consumer imparts responsibility.
You don't get it.
I don't care that people died mining these diamonds, or that they come from war zones, or that they fund wars.
They're not on my purchase list anyways - so where they come from doesn't matter.
As for Foxconn? Sure the working conditions suck, but - I can't change it. And likely don't really care.
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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if one can not convince ACF to care, what would they do in the real world?
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Anebriated
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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it's more difficult to care. to utilize empathy and project yourself into another situation requires thought, imagination, and risk. it's even more difficult to integrate caring into the everyday decisions you have to make. caring about every consumer choice means you can't buy anything without giving it some thought! that is pretty difficult. it would be nice to categorize the 'good' choices with labels like organic but we know that labels can quickly lose their meaning. it seems like caring is more complicated as well.
if I care, i'm at risk of doing wrong and feeling the worse for it. if i don't care then what i do doesn't matter. avoiding risk is a pretty powerful motivator by itself.
that's fine if you don't care. I can see a lot of reasons why it's easier to not care. there's probably a ton of people that don't care, with a bunch of evolutionary reasons why telling unrelated groups to eff off is a great strategy.
just don't pretend like you aren't making the easy choice.
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the_great_intex
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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I don't buy apple crap
But I bet my Samsung was made in the same factory. With our economy so centralized on the stock market I wouldn't expect anyone to see oversea labor to come back anytime soon. Their profits mean "we're doing good!" these days even though its impact is quite the contrary
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Hawkson
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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Anebriated posted:
it's more difficult to care. to utilize empathy and project yourself into another situation requires thought, imagination, and risk. it's even more difficult to integrate caring into the everyday decisions you have to make. caring about every consumer choice means you can't buy anything without giving it some thought! that is pretty difficult. it would be nice to categorize the 'good' choices with labels like organic but we know that labels can quickly lose their meaning. it seems like caring is more complicated as well.
if I care, i'm at risk of doing wrong and feeling the worse for it. if i don't care then what i do doesn't matter. avoiding risk is a pretty powerful motivator by itself.
that's fine if you don't care. I can see a lot of reasons why it's easier to not care. there's probably a ton of people that don't care, with a bunch of evolutionary reasons why telling unrelated groups to eff off is a great strategy.
just don't pretend like you aren't making the easy choice.
You're trying to paint me as a bad person because I don't care about diamond miners in conflict zones, or the Foxconn employees. It's not about empathy, or sympathy, it's about a general base level disgust for the 95% of the human race.
For every person that dies at Foxconn, or dies mining diamonds, many others die elsewhere every day.
Unfortunately more are born to take their place, and take up resources, and further damage the planet. Estimates are that the world will hit 8+ billion in the next 10 or so years.
It's not an easy choice not to care - there are many things that one could care about on a daily basis, it's more difficult to say - I don't care about these people - because there are more pressing global concerns.
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ikkoikki
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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LULZ hell naw I don't buy Iphones or Ipads. But its not because I feel sorry for the Chinese slaves, it's because I think Apple crap is for idiots and morons.
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Tai-Daishar_MT
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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Anebriated posted:
Tai-Daishar_MT posted:
It's all well and good to be concerned over the conditions of factories in China but until the core business practice of making a profit changes, nothing will change.
um, there is already a mechanism for changing things: it's called consumer choice. if people stood firmly on their own principles, if they listened to the feeling in their head that tells them something is wrong and acted accordingly by not giving their money to the companies perpetrating the wrong then things would change. we all know this.
the real barrier is that boycotting something is difficult, costly and requires some thought. you have to be informed, and willing to draw the line. it's a difficult decision to make. to say, "i won't buy this ipad because of the working conditions i've heard about" is a lot to ask because it's such a nifty product. being informed is time consuming in and of itself!
the real reason why nothing will change is because people continue to avoid the difficult decisions. it's easy to lose sight of your own personal responsibility when everyone else is doing it. it's easy to reason that one person won't make a difference. it's easy to be uninformed.
your attitudes are toxic.
I am not sure what crawled up your bum but you clearly either did not read what I wrote or did not understand it. To be honest, based on your reply, I could care less. As far as attitude goes, might want to check with a mirror real quick.
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Anebriated
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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i wasn't trying to paint you as a bad person. i would have just called you one if i thought that but i don't really believe in bad or good people. like, TUG, he's probably a sociopath. i don't really blame him either - maybe it was his prenatal environment?
the fact that you have to prioritize your concerns confirms what i've been saying all along: that caring is cognitively exhausting and one can think of plenty of reasons of why not to care about miners in africa. if you plotted free time during the day and caring about miners in africa i would guess you would find a relationship. you'd have hippies with nothing to do who care one one end and busy people with more pressing concerns on the other.
mo busy mo problems. in the real and practical world, the reasons for not caring will usually dominate and not caring will make perfect sense. what i'm really arguing is that your decision is coming from some place else. unless you are truly indifferent to others, your decision was likely made due to pragmatism not because it was inherently the right thing to do. that's not bad because pragmatism definitely has its place.
but how is that attitude going to effect us all? is it really the right framework of reasoning to adopt? is that the reasoning you would like to see everyone adopting? personally i don't. when you decide confidently that you don't care you also stop thinking about it. even if you just entertained the notion of caring and therefore doing something then you at least thought about it.
 so high
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Anebriated
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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Tai-Daishar_MT posted:
I am not sure what crawled up your bum but you clearly either did not read what I wrote or did not understand it. To be honest, based on your reply, I could care less. As far as attitude goes, might want to check with a mirror real quick.
sorry i just think it's funny when people get really defensive when i call their beliefs toxic or silly. it's like their brains shut down and they start saying things like 'i could care less'.
i mean, sheesh, how attached to your beliefs are you?
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Tai-Daishar_MT
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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Ahh, you got me, you were only trolling.
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Anebriated
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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no i stand by the content of my posts 
if you want to debate my arguments intellectually i am ready
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combat_mage_sc
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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I could give a rats ass if my diamond or ipad came from a 7yo slave working 25/8 for a cup of water and a teaspoon of rice.
As long as i get my sh*t and i get it cheap.
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Tai-Daishar_MT
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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That would require you to display some intelligence. I simply stated why Chinese manufacturing is so prevalant and how the masses don't seem to care about anything other than getting their fix. I even stated I am opposed to the policies that overseas manufacturers have in place. That rambling string of crap you posted made no sense but I understand the need for a +1 so I salute you sir, well played.
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Anebriated
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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genius is always misunderstood.
or
i'm not gonna fall for your trolling. too obvi ~
pick whichever answer is easier for you 
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Onslaught.
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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I've been trying to bring people's attentions to coltan for years. *shrug*
People don't care when it's their hybrid cars, cellphones, PCs and so forth, I guess.
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levgre
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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Tai's post was filled with fallacies and basically irrelevant to the original topic. Hence, even if the purpose wasn't to "water down" the human tragedy here, and our linked personal responsibility, that is all the post successfully attempted (and failed at it).
China/Foxconn has only really "leapfrogged" other companies at manufacturing is their incredibly cheap labor, and that is what is at issue. The savings you get from not paying labor dwarfs any other innovation/technique. And there is absolutely 0 reason American companies must abuse that model to be profitable or deliver new "bling" every year.
As for people who try to justify "not caring", you are on a fool's errand. You can 'not care', but you cannot justify it with reason. If it was your child, sibling, parent or friend in those factories, losing their health and time on this Earth to produce gadgets, you'd become immediately distraught. It's just human wiring, and we as humans have to decide to what extent we are going to care beyond our "default settings".
We could just as well be sitting alongside these workers, asking the 16 year old to hand over the I-Pod when they are done putting on the final touches. But being safely across the ocean, we are not affronted by the greed and guilt we would feel if we had to do the taking.
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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Maybe a litle more education would help your plight levgre, I said nothing that is not known by anyone studying this topic. I have seen you reveal much ignorance in the past, specifically denying water did not help dehydration, so it is no surprise seeing you here again embarassing yourself.
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Caledric
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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Hawkson posted:
*shrug*
Conflict diamonds are diamonds.
Just because you don't buy them, or the Foxconn components doesn't mean others will not buy them too.
Therefore, one person not buying them has no impact.
Might as well not vote either, cause hey... your one vote doesn't matter.
In fact none of us should bother voting!
One person might not make a huge immediate impact, but as that one person tells friends, and they jump on board things start to snowball. Word of mouth, boycotts, protests, change... it all starts with ONE person.
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Dark_EternalFF
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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I'm an asshole, so reading about the Foxconn stuff just made we want to buy some of their stock or something.
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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I don't care what poor people die and suffer to get stuff. Gems, electronics, I just don't g.a.f.
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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tillsb posted:
I don't care what poor people die and suffer to get stuff. Gems, electronics, I just don't g.a.f.
That's sad.
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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I know what blood diamonds are but I have never met anyone who refused Diamond rings on the principle of what their money is used for.
Asrica if any land mass that needed serious intervention it is that one.
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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Onslaught. posted:
I've been trying to bring people's attentions to coltan for years. *shrug*
People don't care when it's their hybrid cars, cellphones, PCs and so forth, I guess.
Still get ignored.
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kigaro
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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Onslaught. posted:
Onslaught. posted:
I've been trying to bring people's attentions to coltan for years. *shrug*
People don't care when it's their hybrid cars, cellphones, PCs and so forth, I guess.
Still get ignored.
I'd like to know more but I'm not going to do my own research.
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TheUnholyGhost
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If you refuse to buy "blood diamonds" do you buy Foxconn components, including ipads & iphones?
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Sociopath?
I think you need to Google the definition, cupcake. 
Narcissist is far more accurate. I suggest reading a book a day to make up for your idiocy. 
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