Ravynmagi
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Windows 8 Beta should be arriving sometime in February.
Apparently Microsoft and ASUS are testing out embedding Kinect sensors into a laptop. So you'll be able to control the laptop with motion and voice commands. Seems kinda neat.
http://www.thedaily.com/page/2012/01/27/012712-tech-kinect-laptop/
The latest Windows 8 Build Blog talks about Windows Explorer changes. Recaps what has already been discussed and some more changes coming. Unfortunately everytime I read anything about Windows Explorer and it doesn't mention some form of tabbed browsing, I just start foaming at the mouth. Gah Microsoft, come on already. Hate having half a dozen Explorer Windows open and having to tile them around the screen so I can keep track of what is where. Microsoft was so freaking slow to get into the tab bandwagon with Internet Explorer, and it seems Windows Explorer is going to be even more slow. GAH! And third party file managers just suck so bad.
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2012/01/30/acting-on-file-management-feedback.aspx
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The_Korrigan
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Out of curiosity, what's the point in moving to Windows 8 when Windows 7 works just fine?
Will DirectX 12 only work on 8, or some similar crap, like they did for Vista?
Not to mention I hate the "Metro" UI, I like the more classic Windows 7 one way more.
Seriously, this strongly reminds me the XP -> Vista upgrade... which I never did after trying Vista. I suspect it will be the same for 7, specially considering the stupid restrictions (special boot, etc...) Windows 8 will have.
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Quazimortal
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I've gotta agree with Korrigan here, I can't see a single reason to switch to Windows 8.
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Greybear1andonly
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Win8 (IMO) is truely developed with Mobile devices in mind and should be avoided for the real users of Computers.
Microsoft set themselves a goal several years back to push a new OS out the door approx. 2-3 apart. Since they have seen the highest rise in mobile devices in the recent years they are wanting to capitalize in that market. This OS will try to meld the two areas with 1 OS.
With that, they want to BOOT lock the hardware so that computers released with the OS will only boot with Win8 loading or fail to work if another OS is loaded. This works great on Tablets and Phones.
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Quazimortal
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Greybear1andonly posted:
Win8 (IMO) is truely developed with Mobile devices in mind and should be avoided for the real users of Computers.
Microsoft set themselves a goal several years back to push a new OS out the door approx. 2-3 apart. Since they have seen the highest rise in mobile devices in the recent years they are wanting to capitalize in that market. This OS will try to meld the two areas with 1 OS.
With that, they want to BOOT lock the hardware so that computers released with the OS will only boot with Win8 loading or fail to work if another OS is loaded. This works great on Tablets and Phones.
I hope they wouldn't want to BOOT lock PCs as well. That would just be trashy if they did.
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Ravynmagi
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They are only boot locking Windows 8 ARM devices. Anything with an x86 processor won't be locked.
The Metro UI can be disabled so you see a more Windows desktop like experience.
I don't know much about DX12 yet, think that's still a ways off. DX11.1 is coming, pretty sure that'll be Windows 7 compatible as well.
Off hand I can't think of a single uber must have feature for Windows 8, but there seem to be a number of little improvements I like.
* Improved file copy UI.
* Improved Explorer UI.
* App store.
* Improved multi-monitor support.
* Native ISO file support.
* Faster boot times.
* Lower memory footprint.
And probably more to come.
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The_Korrigan
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Ravynmagi posted:
* Improved file copy UI.
* Improved Explorer UI.
I'm using "Supercopier2" and am otherwise very happy with the Windows 7 UI...
http://supercopier.sfxteam.org/
Ravynmagi posted:
* App store.
Are you sure this is an improvement? Not me.
Ravynmagi posted:
* Improved multi-monitor support.
http://www.actualtools.com/multiplemonitors/
No need to thank me... it took me a while to find this little gem, and the free version does the job just fine 
Ravynmagi posted:
* Native ISO file support.
http://www.slysoft.com/en/virtual-clonedrive.html
100% free, 100% reliable, and no silly DRM or copy protection which Microsoft will obviously include.
Ravynmagi posted:
* Faster boot times.
Remains to be proved. I tried it, and wasn't really impressed.
Ravynmagi posted:
* Lower memory footprint.
Remains to be proved too. Windows 7 is already quite low on memory, and memory is cheap.
Still not convinced it's so "amazing" to move to Windows 8.
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Ravynmagi
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With Windows being on a faster development cycle now, we'll probably not see quite the dramatic changes they we had with Vista/7 over XP. And users probably aren't going to need to replace their OS every 2 years. So I think people could be fine skipping Windows 8 and staying on 7.
Of course some of use aren't wired that way, if a new OS comes out, we are getting it, even if it hurts us (Vista).
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I will grab it for my main PC. The improvements they are making are things I want. As for the App Store, this could be a killer app if done right, as it is for Apple and Android. Time will tell.
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Ookane
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If you want to know what it has in it different, how it works, and why (along with videos), start here:
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/
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Seffrid
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The_Korrigan posted:
Still not convinced it's so "amazing" to move to Windows 8.
And that's without knowing the price - which is always the biggest single reason not to upgrade a Microsoft product without a proven substantial benefit from doing so!
Personally, I'm very happy with Windows 7 which works very well on both my machines (one work-based, the other gaming-based), and the various features mentioned here go way over my head and are of no interest to me. In any event, for undemanding people like me it's always a good rule to leave other people to beta a new OS for at least 6 months after it's launched by which time the updates should have sorted any initial teething troubles.
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Ookane
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Seffrid posted:
The_Korrigan posted:
Still not convinced it's so "amazing" to move to Windows 8.
And that's without knowing the price - which is always the biggest single reason not to upgrade a Microsoft product without a proven substantial benefit from doing so!
Personally, I'm very happy with Windows 7 which works very well on both my machines (one work-based, the other gaming-based), and the various features mentioned here go way over my head and are of no interest to me. In any event, for undemanding people like me it's always a good rule to leave other people to beta a new OS for at least 6 months after it's launched by which time the updates should have sorted any initial teething troubles.
That is what you are concerned about?
Microsoft O/S prices at release over the past 14 years:
Windows 98/Me
Upgrade - $89
Full ver - $189
Windows 2000 (Professional)
Upgrade - $189
Full ver - $280
Windows XP
Upgrade - $99 (Home
Full ver - $199 (Home)
Full ver - $299 (Professional)
Windows Vista
Home Basic
Upgrade - $99
Full ver - $199
Home Premium
Upgrade - $159
Full ver - $239
Ultimate
Upgrade - $259
Full ver - $399
Windows 7
Home Basic
Upgrade - $119
Full ver - $199
Home Premium
Upgrade - $199
Full ver - $299
Ultimate
Upgrade - $219
Full ver - $319
Taking into account inflation, Windows has gotten progressively cheaper each itteration since Win2k really.
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Seffrid
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As those figures show, it's still a significant chunk of money - not least for those of us with more than one computer. I'm not throwing a couple of hundred pounds at upgrading my machines simply because there's a new OS. There has to be a clear reason to do so.
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The_Korrigan
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Seffrid posted:
As those figures show, it's still a significant chunk of money - not least for those of us with more than one computer. I'm not throwing a couple of hundred pounds at upgrading my machines simply because there's a new OS. There has to be a clear reason to do so.
That, and also thing is I have Windows 7 Ultimate (64bit installed) and it does everything I want...
For my move from XP to 7, there were major improvements that I really wanted.
But for 8, I'm really puzzled at what it will improve for me... definitely not the UI. Of course, I count on Micro$oft to pull some ace out of their sleeves and e.g. make DX12 Windows 8 only or some other asshat move like that.
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Lonestar_1
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The_Korrigan posted:
count on Micro$oft to pull some ace out of their sleeves and e.g. make DX12 Windows 8 only or some other asshat move like that.
That is exactly what I fear. I know win8 comes with xbox live. If they do not put it into win7, I can see new games coming out require xbox live to play or to activate whole bunch of features that you would want like multiplayer.
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Quazimortal
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Lonestar_1 posted:
The_Korrigan posted:
count on Micro$oft to pull some ace out of their sleeves and e.g. make DX12 Windows 8 only or some other asshat move like that.
That is exactly what I fear. I know win8 comes with xbox live. If they do not put it into win7, I can see new games coming out require xbox live to play or to activate whole bunch of features that you would want like multiplayer.
I would QQ quite hard. 
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Locuus
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Well if DX12 is Win8 only, it's not like it will matter much.
So far the DX10 and DX11 games are very few and look almost like the DX9 version anyway.
Not sure what DX12 will bring, but it would have to become widespread and usher a new age in video game graphics for me to even consider spending a few hundred bucks on upgrading my OS because of it.
Everything else I have read about Win 8 is leaves my home user gaming soul equally indifferent.
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Lannai
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The part of the equation that seems to elude you is that the cost of the hardware has plummeted over that time period. In the past, it cost me $1500+ to build an "average" pc. It was normal to spend $2500-3000 for computers back in the 90's. Now it cost about $500. Computers can be built for as low as $200. The windows OS now raises the cost of the pc by 25-100%. My htpc runs very smoothly with a windows 7 install and xbmc...and that computer cost under $250 without windows.
Not to sound argumentative...I would just like to see M$ release 3 or 5 packs or windows at a more reasonable package price. It is becoming extremely common for average households to be running 2,3,4+ computers.
Ookane posted:
Seffrid posted:
The_Korrigan posted:
Still not convinced it's so "amazing" to move to Windows 8.
And that's without knowing the price - which is always the biggest single reason not to upgrade a Microsoft product without a proven substantial benefit from doing so!
Personally, I'm very happy with Windows 7 which works very well on both my machines (one work-based, the other gaming-based), and the various features mentioned here go way over my head and are of no interest to me. In any event, for undemanding people like me it's always a good rule to leave other people to beta a new OS for at least 6 months after it's launched by which time the updates should have sorted any initial teething troubles.
That is what you are concerned about?
Microsoft O/S prices at release over the past 14 years:
Windows 98/Me
Upgrade - $89
Full ver - $189
Windows 2000 (Professional)
Upgrade - $189
Full ver - $280
Windows XP
Upgrade - $99 (Home
Full ver - $199 (Home)
Full ver - $299 (Professional)
Windows Vista
Home Basic
Upgrade - $99
Full ver - $199
Home Premium
Upgrade - $159
Full ver - $239
Ultimate
Upgrade - $259
Full ver - $399
Windows 7
Home Basic
Upgrade - $119
Full ver - $199
Home Premium
Upgrade - $199
Full ver - $299
Ultimate
Upgrade - $219
Full ver - $319
Taking into account inflation, Windows has gotten progressively cheaper each itteration since Win2k really.
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Lokkie_the_Fierce
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Uhm - you do know they have "family" packs that include 3 licenses? At that I got mine it was under $100 - looks like the Win7 version is $160 atm on Amazon.
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shenanigans, harddrives alone put my HTPC over 250 
I would love to see a 3 pack of pro version for way less then what they are doing now. But they will never do it.
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Lonestar_1
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Lokkie_the_Fierce posted:
Uhm - you do know they have "family" packs that include 3 licenses? At that I got mine it was under $100 - looks like the Win7 version is $160 atm on Amazon.
And no that is upgrade packs, a full install will run you ~300 for win7 home.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832116987
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Otarala
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I guess the question is what impact falling hardware prices has on prices for OS development.
I wouldnt upgrade an OS these days anyhow, but if it was a choice between 7 and 8 on a new computer, Im pretty sure they'll have it so 8 feels the better choice by the time I have to make that decision.
Otara
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Lannai
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Lokkie_the_Fierce posted:
Uhm - you do know they have "family" packs that include 3 licenses? At that I got mine it was under $100 - looks like the Win7 version is $160 atm on Amazon.
The cost of each upgrade license would be $55 each + the cost of the original OS...so now my OS is costing me $160+300ish depending on the version. Your comment seems directed at me...but also makes my point.
Uhm...what?
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The point is that even those of us who buy legal versions of the software pay a much cheaper price than has been quoted elsewhere.
My 3 pack, at the time, was under $100 - and includes "full" OEM version.
There are student versions around.
There are MS HUP programs with huge discounts.
Cost of OS, while nothing to sneeze at, is not nearly as huge as people like to quote.
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As far as I was aware ms hup does not include os. You can also get it from MSDN but that is pricy .
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Ookane
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Lonestar_1 posted:
Lokkie_the_Fierce posted:
Uhm - you do know they have "family" packs that include 3 licenses? At that I got mine it was under $100 - looks like the Win7 version is $160 atm on Amazon.
And no that is upgrade packs, a full install will run you ~300 for win7 home.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832116987
If you already own the prior version, there is no reason to buy the full version. Even if you are making a new replacement PC, install the old O/S, upgrade with new disc, and choose "wipe and new install" and it leaves nothing behind, just checks to verify you have a valid previous version. Actually I want to say that with Win7 you could just enter the old disc into the drive for validaiton without installing - and if it's not like that it should be.
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What I don't quite get is why MS can sell OEM copies of their OS to manufacturers like Dell for under $20 but it costs hundreds if sold to the individual consumer.
Why not price the individual sale at around $40-$50 for full new install if you are selling it for $10-$20 in bulk?
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If I could get an upgrade version of Windows 7 for around $45.00, I'd upgrade my home XP machine in a heartbeat.
But as the pricing is now, I'm just going to hold off on Win7 until I build my next computer. My XP machine isn't worth the $100.00 it would cost to put an 'upgrade' version of Win7 on it.
$109.99 for the 'upgrade' version
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832116713
$99.99 for the OEM version
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832116986
And I checked Amazon, same price ranges.
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Seffrid
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jarom_td posted:
My XP machine isn't worth the $100.00 it would cost to put an 'upgrade' version of Win7 on it.
That was the same problem I had when my XP machine had a failed hard drive last September. If I paid out for a new hard drive I'd still be stuck with an old machine with an obsolete OS on it, and to upgrade the OS system as well (plus the additional memory that would then be feasible) made no sense compared to the cost of dumping it altogether and getting a substantially better machine with Windows 7 on it.
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The_Korrigan posted:
Out of curiosity, what's the point in moving to Windows 8 when Windows 7 works just fine?
Why do people trade in their 2011 cars for the 2012 cars? It's all in their head. Is no difference when it comes to technology.
Edit: I just installed Windows 7 (from XP) afew weeks ago. Thats how long it took me to upgrade. And only because I bought more memory & GFX card, so I needed to utilize all of what I bought.
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xDeath-n-Decayx posted:
The_Korrigan posted:
Out of curiosity, what's the point in moving to Windows 8 when Windows 7 works just fine?
Why do people trade in their 2011 cars for the 2012 cars? It's all in their head. Is no difference when it comes to technology.
Edit: I just installed Windows 7 (from XP) afew weeks ago. Thats how long it took me to upgrade. And only because I bought more memory & GFX card, so I needed to utilize all of what I bought.
It'll be almost 3 years since Windows 7 launched when 8 comes out.
During those 3 years there has been a big shift in how millions of people use computers and applications, resulting in the radical UI change in Windows 8. And quite a lot of improvements to the desktop experience.
People that don't like change probably have no reason to upgrade. I don't think Windows has any "must have" features. But I think those that do want to upgrade will find it worth it and not just in their head.
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Otarala
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Bit like digital cameras, though, the improvements are tending to diminish with time, because most of the things your average person really care about are generally fixed, ie constant crashing, 4gb limits, etc. Learning a new interface is more often seen as a pain than a benefit.
So theres a stronger argument to maybe skip an OS or two than there used to be, just like getting every years new camera will tend to mean much smaller improvements than their earlier days.
Otara
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Ravynmagi
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When you have a 2 or 3 year gap between OSs the change is certainly going to be less than the 9 year gap between XP and Vista. We definitely got our money's worth out of XP. Shame Microsoft can't do something about the prices now that they are going with a more rapid release schedule of 2-3 years, so people didn't feel like they had to skip an OS because of price. Naturally I understand a lot may not think Windows 8 is worth $$$ to them.
PS. February 29th is the rumored release date of the Consumer Preview of Windows 8.
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Ookane
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Ravynmagi posted:
When you have a 2 or 3 year gap between OSs the change is certainly going to be less than the 9 year gap between XP and Vista. We definitely got our money's worth out of XP. Shame Microsoft can't do something about the prices now that they are going with a more rapid release schedule of 2-3 years, so people didn't feel like they had to skip an OS because of price. Naturally I understand a lot may not think Windows 8 is worth $$$ to them.
PS. February 29th is the rumored release date of the Consumer Preview of Windows 8.
Not a rumor.
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Does it use the Windows 7 driver model? I really hate waiting years for the drivers to get "good" for these new OS's. That's what happened with Vista.
I guess I'll wait for benchmarks on the same hardware between Windows 8 and 7 after it's release.
With that said, I am really happy with Windows 7.
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the ONLY reason i went with 7 right out of the gate is because i had vista so i could have more than 4 gigs of ram. and vista sucked. i won't upgrade away from 7 until i'm forced to do so.
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_Taebo_ posted:
Does it use the Windows 7 driver model? I really hate waiting years for the drivers to get "good" for these new OS's. That's what happened with Vista.
I guess I'll wait for benchmarks on the same hardware between Windows 8 and 7 after it's release.
With that said, I am really happy with Windows 7.
Yes, the driver model is the same from Vista to Win7 to Win8.
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IvanDF
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Ookane posted:
_Taebo_ posted:
Does it use the Windows 7 driver model? I really hate waiting years for the drivers to get "good" for these new OS's. That's what happened with Vista.
I guess I'll wait for benchmarks on the same hardware between Windows 8 and 7 after it's release.
With that said, I am really happy with Windows 7.
Yes, the driver model is the same from Vista to Win7 to Win8.
I hope they learned their lesson with xp> vista drivers, a lot of issues with vista were drivers.
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IvanDF posted:
Ookane posted:
_Taebo_ posted:
Does it use the Windows 7 driver model? I really hate waiting years for the drivers to get "good" for these new OS's. That's what happened with Vista.
I guess I'll wait for benchmarks on the same hardware between Windows 8 and 7 after it's release.
With that said, I am really happy with Windows 7.
Yes, the driver model is the same from Vista to Win7 to Win8.
I hope they learned their lesson with xp> vista drivers, a lot of issues with vista were drivers.
The issue was the lack of the drivers. Not much was done to force driver creation, 2 huge issues were nvidia in specific and printers in general. Nvidia just had total garbage for drivers, after the fact, 29% of Vista crashes were attributed directly to nvidia:
http://downloadsquad.switched.com/2008/03/28/29-of-windows-vista-crashes-caused-by-nvidia-drivers/
Printer companies make money on ink and new printers. They are meant to be disposable, not something you repair, so they saw no reason to make new drivers for old printers - the problem is that people see that their printer worked FINE with XP, and when they upgraded it didn't so it much be Microsoft.
This go around there is a large focus on in box driver verification and a push to have lots of cerification around it. Shouldn't be a problem, though any OEM that makes an .exe installer rather than just giving the drivers, can cause issues, when the drivers might be fine under Vista, 7 or 8, yet the .exe model was made only for Vista, and won't work well or run at all to install the damn things in other versions.
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IvanDF posted:
I hope they learned their lesson with xp> vista drivers, a lot of issues with vista were drivers.
I don't think there was any lesson to be learned by Microsoft. They needed to improved the driver model, they gave plenty of warning and the manufactures didn't heed it properly.
I'm sure a time will come when Microsoft will need to improve the driver model again and I'm sure hardware manufactures will slack off again too. Though I think I read somewhere that Microsoft was going to do something to try avoid or curb the issue next time. Forgot the details though.
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Ookane
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Ravynmagi posted:
IvanDF posted:
I hope they learned their lesson with xp> vista drivers, a lot of issues with vista were drivers.
I don't think there was any lesson to be learned by Microsoft. They needed to improved the driver model, they gave plenty of warning and the manufactures didn't heed it properly.
I'm sure a time will come when Microsoft will need to improve the driver model again and I'm sure hardware manufactures will slack off again too. Though I think I read somewhere that Microsoft was going to do something to try avoid or curb the issue next time. Forgot the details though.
I'd expect another driver update and change for whatever comes after Windows 8. There are some lessons to be learned - like how to "encourage" the OEM's to do their job and make the drivers they should.
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