Bill McKibben, a dauntless advocate for action on climate change, wrote a powerful op-ed piece for The Washington Post on Wednesday called "A link between climate change and Joplin tornadoes? Never!" He lists numerous recent extreme climate events, and intersperses, tongue-in-cheek, the standard retorts of climate-change deniers:

It is far better to think of these as isolated, unpredictable, discrete events ... It's far smarter to repeat to yourself the comforting mantra that no single weather event can ever be directly tied to climate change. There have been tornadoes before, and floods – that's the important thing.

And he ends with a zinger:

If worst ever did come to worst, it's reassuring to remember what the U.S. Chamber of Commerce told the Environmental Protection Agency in a recent filing: that there's no need to worry because "populations can acclimatize to warmer climates via a range of behavioral, physiological, and technological adaptations."

I'm pretty sure that's what residents are telling themselves in Joplin today.

The piece already has 11,287 recommendations and 1,281 comments. As happens here at 13.7 when this topic comes up, the comments include a barrage of denials, excoriating Bill as an ignorant rabble-rouser and offering countless URLs of refutation. (N.B. I happen to know Bill McKibben, and he has a mind of steel.) As also happens here, the comments also include a barrage of challenges to the denials and refutations of the URLs.

It all felt like pretty familiar reading.

So here's what I don't get: What motivates a denier? If you are a denier-reader of this blog, what motivates you? I'm not asking for more URLs – we already have plenty of those on file. I'm asking about intent.

Thugoneous posted:

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So, I'm still a moron?

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reesescups posted:

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Durrr

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Thugoneous posted:

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So weather = climate again?

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reesecups posted:

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Topic: What Motivates Climate Change Deniers?

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Blue_arrow posted:

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20,000 years ago big ice age

1550 to 1850 Volcanoes caused a "little ice age" four volcanoes went off for a fifty-year period


but man made it warm up and melted all the ice

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YouMightSeeMe posted:

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Best winter ever. I have hoped and dreamed of a winter like this since the day I was born. Didn't snow until about xmas. Then it all melted. Was pretty warm most of january. Was as cold as a normal winter for a week and then it got warmer again. I'm betting we get an early spring/summer. Fucking champ. (Manitoba)

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reesescups posted:

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I know there are still a few of you that are in denial... What say you, what are your motivations?

So here's what I don't get: What motivates a denier? If you are a denier-reader of this blog, what motivates you? I'm not asking for more URLs – we already have plenty of those on file. I'm asking about intent.

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Blue_arrow posted:

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20,000 years ago big ice age

1550 to 1850 Volcanoes caused a "little ice age" four volcanoes went off for a fifty-year period


but man made it warm up and melted all the ice



http://www.c3headlines.com/global-cooling-dataevidencetrends/

The Sahara is covered by snow - first time ever?

So cold in Seattle an Arctic seal comes to visit

Canada slammed by record cold

Turkey paralyzed by heavy snows

Seattle buried by one-day snow storm

Missoula International Airport, MT receives record breaking snow

Winter ski mountain resort in Oregon closed due to heavy snows - 55 inches

India has 132 year old cold temperature broken

Kamloops, Canada has record snowfall

Cascade Mountains receiving crippling mount of snow

Southern India record cold snap kill 15

Northern Japan digs out after record snowfall

Idaho regions to get up to 4 feet of snow

Alaska dog sled races canceled - too much snow

Muskegon County Airport, MI shatters snowfall record

Nome, Alaska suffers with 30 degree below normal temperatures

Wisconsin winter storm dumps 24 inches of snow

Australia sets new records for low temperatures

Alaska's shortage of icebreakers is causing major problems this winter

Australia’s capital dropped to the lowest January temperature in recorded history

Alps snowstorm traps 17,000 with ten feet of now

Austria's ski areas receive record snow this winter

Midland, Texas sets three snowfall records in single day

India area has first snowfall in decades - bitter cold leaves 140 dead

An Alaska town gets 18 feet of now, roofs collapsing, people trapped in their homes

Russian supply ship stuck in thick ice - can't deliver supplies to Nome

Northern India struck with record snowfalls

Valdez, Alaska has snowiest December ever

Kenya's black tea crop has major loss from severe frost - worst ever

Every Florida county has freezing temperatures

New Orleans hit with freezing temperatures

New Mexico's cattle stranded by huge snows

Reykjavík, Iceland broke two December snow records

Switzerland blanketed with record snows

Russia's bitter cold threatens whales trapped by ice

San Luis Obispo County, California experiences coldest December in 40 years

Texas town to have first white Christmas in 72 years

Australia has coldest summer in 50 years

Great Plains hit by deadly winter storm

Parts of France pummeled by winter storm with 80 mph winds

Scotland battered by winter storm with 165 mph winds

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Knuckle Draggers posted:

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Humans invented Tornadoes

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MatrexMistwalker posted:

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Im a skeptic in that I think a large portion of the change we cant fix, without risking side effects that would make things much worse.

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Brother_Tempus posted:

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The UK Meteorology Office ( one of only 3 agencies who keep global temperature data) has stated the Earth hasn't warmed in 15 years

http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/weather/weather_news/United-Kingdom-Meteorology-Office-declares-Earth-hasnt-warmed-in-15-years

These are the East Anglia white coats who have been pushing the carbon-trading snakeoil of "AWG"

If they are saying warming has stopped then its time for them to come up with a new scheme.


No one is denying that climate change happens. History is replete with warming and cooling periods over the millenia. The cause for these changes has been the sun and that is where man needs to focus his attention to understand temperature trending on this planet becuase there is nothing man can do that can compare to the colossal influence the Sun has on our planet.

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[...]
This article includes numerous errors in the reporting of published peer reviewed science undertaken by the Met Office Hadley Centre and for Mr. Rose to suggest that the latest global temperatures available show no warming in the last 15 years is entirely misleading.
[...]
“However, what is absolutely clear is that we have continued to see a trend of warming, with the decade of 2000-2009 being clearly the warmest in the instrumental record going back to 1850. Depending on which temperature records you use, 2010 was the warmest year on record for NOAA NCDC and NASA GISS, and the second warmest on record in HadCRUT3.”
[...]

Cawlin posted:

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MatrexMistwalker posted:

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Im a skeptic in that I think a large portion of the change we cant fix, without risking side effects that would make things much worse.

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See, my suspicion is that anyone who talks about "climate change deniers" actually also has zero tolerance for your position.

The term "climate change denier" is almost exclusively used by folks who are dead set in the belief that man is solely responsible for climate change. Anyone who does not fully believe, as they do, that man is the sole cause of climate variation is a "denier".

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Brother_Tempus posted:

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The UK Meteorology Office ( one of only 3 agencies who keep global temperature data) has stated the Earth hasn't warmed in 15 years

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ZigmundZag posted:

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Cawlin posted:

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MatrexMistwalker posted:

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Im a skeptic in that I think a large portion of the change we cant fix, without risking side effects that would make things much worse.

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See, my suspicion is that anyone who talks about "climate change deniers" actually also has zero tolerance for your position.

The term "climate change denier" is almost exclusively used by folks who are dead set in the belief that man is solely responsible for climate change. Anyone who does not fully believe, as they do, that man is the sole cause of climate variation is a "denier".

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The criteria for being a "denier" is rejecting the science behind global warming, and by extension, believing that 95% of climatologists are either stupid or criminally corrupt.

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ZigmundZag posted:

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Rest your case? You made a point, I countered it, you declared victory. That's a formula for stupid, not success.

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Cawlin posted:

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FYI, 95% of climatologists didn't even exist as "climatologists" 10 years ago.

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Cawlin posted:

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So I'll ask again: Were you implying that MatrexMistwalker's point of view on the matter makes him a "denier"?

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reesescups posted:

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Cawlin posted:

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FYI, 95% of climatologists didn't even exist as "climatologists" 10 years ago.

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As a field of study climatology has been around for going on about 160 years...

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ZigmundZag posted:

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Cawlin posted:

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So I'll ask again: Were you implying that MatrexMistwalker's point of view on the matter makes him a "denier"?

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I didn't think my answer was all that ambiguous, but I'll make it a little clearer - NO. I wasn't replying to Matrix at all.

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Blue_arrow posted:

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Dozens freeze to death as 'extreme cold' grips Europe


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46200659/ns/weather/

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Cawlin posted:

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So then do you consider Matrix a denier?

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ZigmundZag posted:

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The criteria for being a "denier" is rejecting the science behind global warming, and by extension, believing that 95% of climatologists are either stupid or criminally corrupt.

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ZigmundZag posted:

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Cawlin posted:

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So then do you consider Matrix a denier?

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ZigmundZag posted:

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The criteria for being a "denier" is rejecting the science behind global warming, and by extension, believing that 95% of climatologists are either stupid or criminally corrupt.

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My definition is right there.

Does Matrix reject the science behind global warming? Hard to tell from one statement, but I'd have to say probably not.

Now will you please get on with wherever your GOTCHA is leading? I have a meeting in a few minutes.

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reesescups posted:

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I know there are still a few of you that are in denial... What say you, what are your motivations?

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Eternal_Midnight posted:

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Blue_arrow posted:

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20,000 years ago big ice age

1550 to 1850 Volcanoes caused a "little ice age" four volcanoes went off for a fifty-year period


but man made it warm up and melted all the ice

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This is your reasoning for denying climate change?

How do you justify the thousands that die every year from air pollution, then?

FYI, you should remove your references to Canada in that link. The entire country, pretty much, is experiencing one of our warmest winters on record.

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Jaedence posted:

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How was your winter last year? Because VT is warm this year and bitter cold last year.
We have zero snow on the ground and last year we had record snowfall.

Let me guess... both years were caused by man-made global warming?

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Jaedence posted:

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Anyone who believes in man-made global warming is ignoring three very important things:

1. How much CO2 is in the atmosphere and how much it contributes to warming.
2. That cows and other mammals produce enormous amounts of methane which is a much more harmful greenhouse gas. (Save the planet kill all the cows!)
3. We don't know why the Earth cooled and warmed in the past. Period.

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Jaedence posted:

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Anyone who believes in man-made global warming is ignoring three very important things:

1. How much CO2 is in the atmosphere and how much it contributes to warming.
2. That cows and other mammals produce enormous amounts of methane which is a much more harmful greenhouse gas. (Save the planet kill all the cows!)
3. We don't know why the Earth cooled and warmed in the past. Period.

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reesescups posted:

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The others believe in it, they are just really really against any corrective actions or policies.

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reesescups posted:

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Ok so very very few people here are in actual denial about climate change. The others believe in it, they are just really really against any corrective actions or policies. I am dig that.


I honestly thought more people were in straight up denial...

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sweeny_comodore posted:

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Speaking of science, how do you test this hypothesis?

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Clackdor posted:

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Human kind needs to adapt to a warmer planet, not try to stop the planet from warming.

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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Blanket statements that we shouldn't make any effort to control our impact on the climate are just as dumb as saying we should stop doing anything that has any impact on the climate at all.

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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Clackdor posted:

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Human kind needs to adapt to a warmer planet, not try to stop the planet from warming.

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Well, that's sorta simplistic and trite. About like saying "we need to stop worrying about pollution and just learn to live with it!"

Some pollution would cost so much to stop it's probably better we learn to live with it, although at the very least it always makes sense to make the polluters pay instead of letting them externalize their costs. Some pollution should be stopped despite the economic cost of doing so.

The same thing applies here. Blanket statements that we shouldn't make any effort to control out impact on the climate are just as dumb as saying we should stop doing anything that has any impact on the climate at all.

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reesescups posted:

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In short the message is this:

If I don't want to deal with it, or worry about it, I'll just ignore it and someone else will pay for it anyhow so who cares?

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sweeny_comodore posted:

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in the end, climatology is really just large scale weather prediction and we all know how well our local weather men are at predicting the weather for tomorrow.

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Scarne posted:

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Jaedence posted:

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How was your winter last year? Because VT is warm this year and bitter cold last year.
We have zero snow on the ground and last year we had record snowfall.

Let me guess... both years were caused by man-made global warming?

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It is possible, yes.

Adding more energy into a chaotic system can end up creating more chaos with extreme swings between highs and lows.

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sweeny_comodore posted:

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it can also end up smoothing out chaotic swings....

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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sweeny_comodore posted:

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it can also end up smoothing out chaotic swings....

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uh no. more energy into a system does not smooth things out.

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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I didn't say high energy systems can't be stable SKONK.

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