Fist_de_Yuma
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This was written over 200 years ago.
"I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. In my youth I travelled much, and I observed in different countries, that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer." -- Benjamin Franklin
I'm sure if Franklin learned how the poor would become a voting block he would think those who work towards keeping people poor as the highest of evil. He would understand that good but ignorant and/or stupid people can support evil thinking they are supporting good. What I find amazing is that so many are deliberately ignorant and refuse to believe what is right in front of their eyes. There is no excuse for ignorants in today’s internet world.
I'm reminded of many people I see today. They can talk and talk for hours on end. When it comes their turn to listen a blank look comes over their face. They wait until they can start talking again; not hearing or even attempting to understand what they are being told.
That notwithstanding, like it or not, ethical and moral obligations are irrevocably linked to our vocations, including those that produce great wealth. How we respond to these obligations will, in large measure, determine whether our Republic can transcend the "Fatal Cycle of Democracy": From bondage to spiritual faith; From spiritual faith to courage; From courage to Liberty (Rule of Law); From Liberty to abundance; From abundance to complacency; From complacency to apathy; From apathy to dependence; From dependence back into bondage (rule of men).
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NuEM
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For the longest time in history poverty was anything but easy. (Eff it still isn't for much of the world's population.) Somehow this didn't magically make poor people not poor.
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Kjarhall
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Go ask a poor person if some welfare and food stamps make life easy.
What do you propose we should do to spur them into getting a better life for themselves?
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*http://vnboards.ign.com/outpost/b22180/115147923/r115151508/
hah! true story tho i'm a woman an i even love boobs..how can you not??- HallowEve
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BubbleDude
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LIBERALSSSS!!!
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It probably came here in the first place because it did a search for "pedo forum." - Yukishiro
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Rhint
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Kjarhall posted:
Go ask a poor person if some welfare and food stamps make life easy.
What do you propose we should do to spur them into getting a better life for themselves?
Those lazy bastards need to work THREE minimum wage jobs while going to school.
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__Bonk__
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Food stamps and welfare really is needed by many people.
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Sansfear
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Whatever you subsidize, you get more of.
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__Bonk__
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Subsidize hot chicks
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GrilledCheez
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This is an issue where i agree strongly with the OP. i'd rather see no welfare than lots of welfare.
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NuEM
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There's plenty of countries with little to no welfare. There's also countries with lots of welfare. If I had to pick between living in one of the former or one of the latter the choice was a no-brainer to me.
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GrilledCheez
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NuEM posted:
There's plenty of countries with little to no welfare. There's also countries with lots of welfare. If I had to pick between living in one of the former or one of the latter the choice was a no-brainer to me.
For now. There is still a lot of left over wealth in a lot of countries. In fifty years I wonder which will be which though.
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eodoll
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Funny since they were taking advantage of slaves at the time of writing this. Hypocrites.
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NuEM
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GrilledCheez posted:
For now. There is still a lot of left over wealth in a lot of countries. In fifty years I wonder which will be which though.
That wealth is represented in the form of promised goods and services. It means nothing without the educated and apt people behind it who will provide these, whereas those people will still be what they are regardless of any promised wealth.
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Aerlinthian
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Hamilton posted:
That notwithstanding, like it or not, ethical and moral obligations are irrevocably linked to our vocations, including those that produce great wealth. How we respond to these obligations will, in large measure, determine whether our Republic can transcend the "Fatal Cycle of Democracy": From bondage to spiritual faith; From spiritual faith to courage; From courage to Liberty (Rule of Law); From Liberty to abundance; From abundance to complacency; From complacency to apathy; From apathy to dependence; From dependence back into bondage (rule of men).
That is a brilliantly put truism.
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reesescups
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Kjarhall posted:
Go ask a poor person if some welfare and food stamps make life easy.
What do you propose we should do to spur them into getting a better life for themselves?
We should tell them to be more patient and that jobs will start to trickle down shortly...
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Fist_de_Yuma
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reesescups posted:
Kjarhall posted:
Go ask a poor person if some welfare and food stamps make life easy.
What do you propose we should do to spur them into getting a better life for themselves?
We should tell them to be more patient and that jobs will start to trickle down shortly...
You have it backwards again. Obama is trying the give the poor money and watch the jobs pour in. Working well he thinks, just give it time. What you and the other liberals never seem to understand that keeping government out of it alltogether is the only way it will work. Government will always help those that are the most popular; which is seldom the best and often is the worst.
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__Bonk__
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Obama is trying to give his political contributors and supporters money. He knows the power of quid pro quo. Its the basis of Chicago politics which he mastered
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Voodoo-Dahl
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In what way is Obama trying to give the poor money? I must have missed that one.
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Allstarslacker
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I bet Ben was high when he wrote that.
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__Bonk__
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Not high but the people back then drank A LOT of moonshine
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reesescups
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Fist_de_Yuma posted:
reesescups posted:
Kjarhall posted:
Go ask a poor person if some welfare and food stamps make life easy.
What do you propose we should do to spur them into getting a better life for themselves?
We should tell them to be more patient and that jobs will start to trickle down shortly...
You have it backwards again. Obama is trying the give the poor money and watch the jobs pour in. Working well he thinks, just give it time. What you and the other liberals never seem to understand that keeping government out of it alltogether is the only way it will work. Government will always help those that are the most popular; which is seldom the best and often is the worst.
Jobs trickling down is what 'your' policy (which is what we are actually doing) is supposed to do. So we should just tell people to be more patient and at some point the wealthy (aka Job Creators) will start to trickle down some jobs.
Or alternatively we can spur demand by giving money to people to buy things (apparently Obama's plan in your words). In this case buy things like food, shelter, utilities... This will in effect give that money straight back to the wealthy and hence they will create jobs (because they are the job creators) and the jobs will start to trickle down...
Either plan/policy/etc is just giving more money to the wealthy, which in turn allows them to create jobs. Or are you saying the wealthy aren't actually job creators? I'm pretty sure FoxNews said the wealthy were the Job Creators, so it must be true...
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Sin_of_Onin
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Welfare or no welfare is mostly immaterial. Trade balance is far more important and the ability to get people working. Employment is far more dependent on the government's role in assuring a healthy export market than welfare. The welfare of the poor is also more dependent on that.
But people will still bitch and moan about UHC because they are stupid.
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GrilledCheez
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The problem I have with your UHC argument is twofold.
1) it is a circular argument. if the gov't would have been doing the right things then wages would have risen and somewhat kept pace with health costs. Therefore your "crisis" is as much a symptom of the overall problem than a contributor to it.
2) health costs as a percentage of total employee costs are still less than 10 percent. That is hardly the competitive gap between us and emerging markets.
it would absolutely help, but it is at best a bandaid. it would not spur wage growth. It would not spur business development, and depending on how you paid for it it might hurt it.
plus if the main issue you are complaining about is total cost for healthcare. Giving it to everyone and inviting all the waste of gov't administration would vastly raise those costs. Even more than they would go up naturally.
the wage and employment issue is a demand issue.
more welfare is nowhere near the best answer IMO, even though it might help some in the near term.
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Sea_of_inK
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I know for a FACT that many of you have no idea what real poverty looks like today. Most of you are far removed. Its obvious when you type..
I'm lucky to have one side of my family that lives in a mix of trailer parks and suburbia with another that lives in multiple houses, apartments, villas, farms, etc. all over the world. 
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reesescups
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Sea_of_inK posted:
I know for a FACT that many of you have no idea what real poverty looks like today. Most of you are far removed. Its obvious when you type..
I'm lucky to have one side of my family that lives in a mix of trailer parks and suburbia with another that lives in multiple houses, apartments, villas, farms, etc. all over the world.
Real poverty doesn't live in a trailer park.
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Kjarhall
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Fist_de_Yuma posted:
reesescups posted:
Kjarhall posted:
Go ask a poor person if some welfare and food stamps make life easy.
What do you propose we should do to spur them into getting a better life for themselves?
We should tell them to be more patient and that jobs will start to trickle down shortly...
You have it backwards again. Obama is trying the give the poor money and watch the jobs pour in. Working well he thinks, just give it time. What you and the other liberals never seem to understand that keeping government out of it alltogether is the only way it will work. Government will always help those that are the most popular; which is seldom the best and often is the worst.
You didn't answer the question. What would you do?
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hah! true story tho i'm a woman an i even love boobs..how can you not??- HallowEve
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sweeny_comodore
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according to the current theory around here, if you start paying the poor millions of dollars theyll work harder than anyone youve ever seen and create jobs out of their own ass for them to do.
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Sea_of_inK
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reesescups posted:
Sea_of_inK posted:
I know for a FACT that many of you have no idea what real poverty looks like today. Most of you are far removed. Its obvious when you type..
I'm lucky to have one side of my family that lives in a mix of trailer parks and suburbia with another that lives in multiple houses, apartments, villas, farms, etc. all over the world.
Real poverty doesn't live in a trailer park.
You're right, since foreclosure some of the neighbors don't live in the trailer park anymore. Unless you're going to argue that real poverty doesn't exist in America at all 
My point is, it's easy to hate on something like food stamps when nobody you know has ever relied on them. Or think that health care shouldn't be all about profit when you've known people in desperate need of care who can't afford it. When these things are no longer abstract ideas happening to 'people' somewhere but a real 'person' in your own life, your perspective changes. Real life and real poverty isn't what conservatards and co. on the outpost say it is.
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NuEM
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Money moves towards money like matter moves towards matter. If you have a weight and want it to do work you have to first lift it up. If you want money to do work you have to "lift it up", which means to move it to places where it's far away from other money and then "make it run the gears" as it flows back.
In an economy the state of lowest "energy" is when all money is concentrated among a small group of people.
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reesescups
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Sea_of_inK posted:
reesescups posted:
Sea_of_inK posted:
I know for a FACT that many of you have no idea what real poverty looks like today. Most of you are far removed. Its obvious when you type..
I'm lucky to have one side of my family that lives in a mix of trailer parks and suburbia with another that lives in multiple houses, apartments, villas, farms, etc. all over the world.
Real poverty doesn't live in a trailer park.
You're right, since foreclosure some of the neighbors don't live in the trailer park anymore. Unless you're going to argue that real poverty doesn't exist in America at all
My point is, it's easy to hate on something like food stamps when nobody you know has ever relied on them. Or think that health care shouldn't be all about profit when you've known people in desperate need of care who can't afford it. When these things are no longer abstract ideas happening to 'people' somewhere but a real 'person' in your own life, your perspective changes. Real life and real poverty isn't what conservatards and co. on the outpost say it is.
I think you are babbling about shit I don't care about.
You said we don't know 'Real Poverty' - as if only the poverty YOU know about is real and everyone else's poverty is 'fake' poverty... Well, if you want to talk about 'REAL' poverty - that doesn't exist in a trailer park.
This is just lazy white people that have been filtered out of society because they are too dumb to get/keep a job or simply have no local job opportunities.
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Bobvillas
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That is an old picture.
We cut that cactus down.
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Sin_of_Onin
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GrilledCheez posted:
The problem I have with your UHC argument is twofold.
1) it is a circular argument. if the gov't would have been doing the right things then wages would have risen and somewhat kept pace with health costs. Therefore your "crisis" is as much a symptom of the overall problem than a contributor to it.
2) health costs as a percentage of total employee costs are still less than 10 percent. That is hardly the competitive gap between us and emerging markets.
it would absolutely help, but it is at best a bandaid. it would not spur wage growth. It would not spur business development, and depending on how you paid for it it might hurt it.
plus if the main issue you are complaining about is total cost for healthcare. Giving it to everyone and inviting all the waste of gov't administration would vastly raise those costs. Even more than they would go up naturally.
the wage and employment issue is a demand issue.
more welfare is nowhere near the best answer IMO, even though it might help some in the near term.
The first point you make doesn't make sense and the US as a nation has HC costs that far exceed the rest of the world with very little to show for it. The direct cost to employees/employers is certainly a major factor but the overall cost to the economy is measured in % of GDP. The idea that it wouldn't lower costs is not based on evidence but emotion.
If the US doesn't address the trade imbalance then we will have employment problems whether there is welfare or not which results in costs to the society.
By and large we try and have UHC without having it. This results in massive inefficiencies. You are basically arguing for a position (no HC for poor) that we will never have in the US. Your position if poorly informed and based on emotion.
Bottom line is that we need to fix trade and the fear of UHC is irrational nonsense.
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GrilledCheez
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Believing that UHC fixes trade is the emotional argument. A year ago it was all about preexisting conditions. now it's employment. I respect your position and you are not wrong that the way we do it right now is stupid. Forcing hospitals to care for people who can't/won't pay is tardy. Letting them die is tardy. but all of this stems from no opportunity at the bottom, which has been coming for decades, so being all "ZOMG WE HAVE THIS NEW UNEXPECTED PROBLEM AND IT IS RUINING OUR HEALTHCARE SITUATION!!" is stoopid.
Whenever opportunity fails at the bottom you see this same cycle of welfare pushes from the dems. it just doesn't make anything better. Circling the wagons on UHC and acting like it is a competitive issue while you have unfettered open trading with countries that have trusts built into their gov't and outlaw unions is the height of missing the point.
You can't tax and welfare spend to opportunity for the poor
you can't tax and welfare spend to compete with china
and you certainly can't tax and welfare spend to give back all that the labor in this country wrested away from the monied interests for half a decade that we stupidly undermined by being asleep at the wheel.
Why aren't you pushing labor power and unions with the same force you are pushing UHC? Unions empower the lower classes welfare destroys them. but I know why you are arguing for what you are arguing for. because you are a big government liberal and you see government control and rationing as the answer to every problem. That will NEVER be a mainstream american value. Repackage it all you want, your record on domestic issues is pretty clear.
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sweeny_comodore
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promote from within.
force anyone hired at a company to start at the bottom regardless of existing education. you want to be CEO of macDs? heres a paper hat. take the fries out of the oil when that thing goes ding.
ill agree that a good portion of the employees are incapable of doing their immediate boss' job. theres also plenty of them who are perfectly capable of not only doing it but doing it better.
that is how we killed it.
cant afford college? heres a paper hat...
oh, youve already got money? here, have a whip to keep the peasants in line.
promoting from within gives the peasants hope. it pushes them to take more pride in their work, and, dare i say it, possibley even work for a little less if they know they will get to move up the ladder eventually.
as it is now adays, they get thrown into the dungeon, forced to work for crap, and usually dont even give two shits about a company that left them there to die.
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Eager_Igraine
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Subject:
Some people never learn
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Fist_de_Yuma posted:
I can talk and talk for hours on end. When it comes my turn to listen a blank look comes over my face. I wait until I can start talking again; not hearing or even attempting to understand what I am being told.
Well yeah. Did you notice that question Kjarhall asked, or were you just waiting until you can start talking again?
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I radiate more heat than light.
I know what you're trying to do but you're just sailing another failboat over the falls. - imaloon1
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Kjarhall
Title: The Pungent One
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Subject:
Some people never learn
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Eager_Igraine posted:
Fist_de_Yuma posted:
I can talk and talk for hours on end. When it comes my turn to listen a blank look comes over my face. I wait until I can start talking again; not hearing or even attempting to understand what I am being told.
Well yeah. Did you notice that question Kjarhall asked, or were you just waiting until you can start talking again?
And out the other side of his mouth, he claims he's here to debate. 
I'm used to it, he does it all the time.
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You're a crazy moron*
*http://vnboards.ign.com/outpost/b22180/115147923/r115151508/
hah! true story tho i'm a woman an i even love boobs..how can you not??- HallowEve
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Sin_of_Onin
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Subject:
Some people never learn
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GrilledCheez posted:
Believing that UHC fixes trade is the emotional argument. A year ago it was all about preexisting conditions. now it's employment. I respect your position and you are not wrong that the way we do it right now is stupid. Forcing hospitals to care for people who can't/won't pay is tardy. Letting them die is tardy. but all of this stems from no opportunity at the bottom, which has been coming for decades, so being all "ZOMG WE HAVE THIS NEW UNEXPECTED PROBLEM AND IT IS RUINING OUR HEALTHCARE SITUATION!!" is stoopid.
Whenever opportunity fails at the bottom you see this same cycle of welfare pushes from the dems. it just doesn't make anything better. Circling the wagons on UHC and acting like it is a competitive issue while you have unfettered open trading with countries that have trusts built into their gov't and outlaw unions is the height of missing the point.
You can't tax and welfare spend to opportunity for the poor
you can't tax and welfare spend to compete with china
and you certainly can't tax and welfare spend to give back all that the labor in this country wrested away from the monied interests for half a decade that we stupidly undermined by being asleep at the wheel.
Why aren't you pushing labor power and unions with the same force you are pushing UHC? Unions empower the lower classes welfare destroys them. but I know why you are arguing for what you are arguing for. because you are a big government liberal and you see government control and rationing as the answer to every problem. That will NEVER be a mainstream american value. Repackage it all you want, your record on domestic issues is pretty clear.
The solution to the trade imbalance has to be more than fixing health care but there is no doubt that it is a massive inefficiency in our economy that will continue to drag down on our economy which will make us less competitive.
Union power just increases the cost of labor. There is also a long history of unions pushing up benefits beyond what makes sense in the labor market. Labor needs leverage but unions can cause a lot of problems when you are trying to make US labor more competitive.
In terms of trade there are some major issues, capital flows into the US, tax policy for corporations and the rich, HC policy, and regulatory inequalities.
I agree that UHC alone won't work and could make things worse because any benefit to labor can be undone by the other problems I pointed out. There is no doubt it is a key part to making our economy more efficient. this will not just impact trade but will help the US economy overall.
But hey I understand change is scary for some people and any UHC system relies on politicians making good decisions. Obviously a risk but HC is already in the hands of politicians last time I checked. Teh group that will be the most impacted by UHC are those who work.
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