Locuus
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Seems like everyone is coming with ways to control what people do. Cell phones track where you go without permission, On Star tracks as well and can stop your car without permission, the government can arrest call people terrorists and arrest them on suspicion only, and now MS is going a step further with this - they will be able to remove programs including any of the content generated by the programs from people's computers without asking.
http://www.maximumpc.com/article/news/windows_8_apps_can_be_remotely_removed_microsoft
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-Mithan-
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They are doing what Apple and Google Android are doing with their own OS's.
Now obviously, there are pro's and con's.
Hopefully the feature will be something we can disable.
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Ookane
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Locuus posted:
Seems like everyone is coming with ways to control what people do. Cell phones track where you go without permission, On Star tracks as well and can stop your car without permission, the government can arrest call people terrorists and arrest them on suspicion only, and now MS is going a step further with this - they will be able to remove programs including any of the content generated by the programs from people's computers without asking.
http://www.maximumpc.com/article/news/windows_8_apps_can_be_remotely_removed_microsoft
How do people being tracked by their cell phones or OnStar control what a person does? There are much larger issues to be concerned about than that someone gives 2 craps about tracking your movements to and from the grocery store.
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Locuus
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Oh it's not a big issue now, but it all adds up and seems headed in the wrong direction.
And yes, there are always bigger issues, but then the big issues are usually the hardest to resolve. That doesn't mean we should forget about all other issues and wait until they become big too.
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Finkleheimer
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Ookane posted:
Locuus posted:
Seems like everyone is coming with ways to control what people do. Cell phones track where you go without permission, On Star tracks as well and can stop your car without permission, the government can arrest call people terrorists and arrest them on suspicion only, and now MS is going a step further with this - they will be able to remove programs including any of the content generated by the programs from people's computers without asking.
http://www.maximumpc.com/article/news/windows_8_apps_can_be_remotely_removed_microsoft
How do people being tracked by their cell phones or OnStar control what a person does? There are much larger issues to be concerned about than that someone gives 2 craps about tracking your movements to and from the grocery store.
Seriously? You don't really see the bigger picture issue with this? Bigger issues or not, it's a massive and I mean MASSIVE invasion of privacy. People love making fun of conspiracy theorists but this isn't a realm of life I'd poke much fun at given the state of our current government and country.
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Seffrid
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Locuus posted:
the government can arrest call people terrorists and arrest them on suspicion only
You don't want suspected terrorists arrested?
I'm delighted that suspected terrorists are arrested, but I then want them put before a court of law within strict time limits and only convicted on firm evidence. I don't want them tucked away out of sight for years on end with only suspicions and no evidence.
As for Microsoft removing Windows 8 Apps remotely, I don't plan on using any apps they'd take exception to so it won't be a problem for me just as CCTV cameras in the street and cell phones tracking my movements aren't a problem to me either. If you're up to no good in any of these respects then obviously such things will be a concern.
Let's face it, if everyone's movements and actions were tracked 24/7 it would be an horrendous invasion of our privacy, but then we'd have no crime because there'd be a 100% detection rate, wouldn't there? An interesting dichotomy.
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Vyxar
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Seffrid posted:
Locuus posted:
the government can arrest call people terrorists and arrest them on suspicion only
You don't want suspected terrorists arrested?
I'm delighted that suspected terrorists are arrested, but I then want them put before a court of law within strict time limits and only convicted on firm evidence. I don't want them tucked away out of sight for years on end with only suspicions and no evidence.
No as a matter of fact I don't want suspected terrorists arrested because the term is a bogus media term like alleged rapist, murderer, child molester.
I want terrorists arrested. If they have the goods arrest them or kill them otherwise GTFO.
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Seffrid
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Vyxar posted:
No as a matter of fact I don't want suspected terrorists arrested because the term is a bogus media term like alleged rapist, murderer, child molester.
I want terrorists arrested. If they have the goods arrest them or kill them otherwise GTFO.
People only become terrorists after they have committed an act of terrorism and been convicted of such in a court of law. Until then they are merely suspected terrorists no matter what the evidential basis of those suspicions may be. If you want to wait until after people have been killed and maimed before arresting those responsible then so be it, but it's a pretty naive position to adopt.
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Aerlinthian
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/agree with Vyxar & Locuus
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Quazimortal
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Seffrid posted:
Locuus posted:
the government can arrest call people terrorists and arrest them on suspicion only
You don't want suspected terrorists arrested?
I'm delighted that suspected terrorists are arrested, but I then want them put before a court of law within strict time limits and only convicted on firm evidence. I don't want them tucked away out of sight for years on end with only suspicions and no evidence.
As for Microsoft removing Windows 8 Apps remotely, I don't plan on using any apps they'd take exception to so it won't be a problem for me just as CCTV cameras in the street and cell phones tracking my movements aren't a problem to me either. If you're up to no good in any of these respects then obviously such things will be a concern.
Let's face it, if everyone's movements and actions were tracked 24/7 it would be an horrendous invasion of our privacy, but then we'd have no crime because there'd be a 100% detection rate, wouldn't there? An interesting dichotomy.
You are the kind of person that truly terrifies me. In fact it's this kind of attitude that would truly justify terrorism. In the future you described I would be a part of the resistance fighting an unjust government and I would be labeled a terrorist.
I choose a more dangerous but free existence over your slavish but safe existence.
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Seffrid
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Quazimortal posted:
You are the kind of person that truly terrifies me. In fact it's this kind of attitude that would truly justify terrorism. In the future you described I would be a part of the resistance fighting an unjust government and I would be labeled a terrorist.
I choose a more dangerous but free existence over your slavish but safe existence.
I'd choose it too.
I never said I favoured such a future, merely that it raised an interesting dichotomy.
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The_Korrigan
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One more reason not to switch to that pile of bloated crap.
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Greybear1andonly
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When you give up your freedoms willingly, you weaken your rights and the rights of those around you. All to often, smart people make dumb decisions trading freedoms for a false sense of security that ultimately costs them more than they bargained for.
Data gathered from phones is vital to advertising.
Data gathered by cell phone and vehicular GPS units show not only traffic patterns for Government road projects, but can also be computed in Miles Per Hour for traffic stops.
Data linked specifically to your Cell Phone or Vehicle can be gathered and sold to that X-boyfriend thats been stalking you, those employees you fired, that bill collector your avoiding...
You think your OnStar is awesome? So do I, because just like hackers have taken over the Air Force Drones your car could be next. Hackers arent SPECIFIC in they attempts, they dont have to target you specifically, they just have to stumble across and ""bam"" your car disables while your flying down the highway at 80 in rushhour traffic. You think OnStar is going to say ""We are sorry your wife and family died due to the car being disabled, but it was not our fault.""
You bought it, you should own it, you should control it. You should not be RENTING things for the rest of your life, or what someone determines is the life cycle of a product.
Paranoid?!?! Hell yes. And if you were smarter than me, you should really be also.
20 years ago, everyone was worried about ""The Number of the Beast"" 666. There were those that felt it was the Social Security number....well, I can tell you what number the mark of the beast is, its in your pocket right now, people are willing attaching themselves to that number, they are doing it in droves. Only the smart ones dont have cell phones.
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Finkleheimer
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Seffrid posted:
Vyxar posted:
No as a matter of fact I don't want suspected terrorists arrested because the term is a bogus media term like alleged rapist, murderer, child molester.
I want terrorists arrested. If they have the goods arrest them or kill them otherwise GTFO.
People only become terrorists after they have committed an act of terrorism and been convicted of such in a court of law. Until then they are merely suspected terrorists no matter what the evidential basis of those suspicions may be. If you want to wait until after people have been killed and maimed before arresting those responsible then so be it, but it's a pretty naive position to adopt.
If you want to wait until after people have been killed and maimed before arresting those responsible then so be it, but it's a pretty naive position to adopt.
That world that you envision is a world I'd would truly be scared to live in. Being capable of being arrested just for being suspect? No thank you. As deplorable as it is for such crimes to happen, it is even worse to arrest someone just on a notion that they MAY do something. That is how witch hunts came about in the first place. Salem witch trials are a -perfect- example of that type of world.
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Seffrid
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Finkleheimer posted:
That world that you envision is a world I'd would truly be scared to live in. Being capable of being arrested just for being suspect? No thank you.
You already live in that world.
What those who take exception to my views seem to overlook is that every criminal is a suspected criminal until they are convicted in a court of law.
All suspicion leading to arrest should be based on a degree of evidence, otherwise there can be no adequate grounds for suspicion.
Perhaps we're playing semantics with the word "suspect". I'm using it in a legal sense, I'm arguing that it is right for suspected terrorists to be arrested because there are evidential grounds for those suspicions, I'm not suggesting for a moment that people are arrested as suspected terrorists simply because they're of a certain religion or colour, for example, there clearly have to be evidential grounds for any suspicion leading to arrest - and that is how every single crime is dealt with in any civilised society.
Except, of course, in the case of Guantanamo Bay where people have been locked up indefinitely on non-evidential suspicion and with no prospect of trial. The same would also seem to be true in the case of the American soldier suspected of leaking information to Assange/Wikileaks, he seems to be imprisoned with no prospect of trial. That cannot be condoned, but it is certainly happening in the world in which you live (at the behest of your own Government if you are American) so given your views as quoted above I hope you condemn it unequivocably as I do.
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Locuus
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That's the thing though, under the Patriot Act the government can call you a terrorist and arrest you, and keep you in jail indefinitely even with no evidence at all - on suspicion ONLY. No court order needed to search you or your property.
Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty? Basically if some official wants they can arrest you, tap your phone, get any sort of personal info on you, AND throw you in jail with no court order, no evidence and you cannot sue them or do anything about it.
I just don't like where this country is headed - copyright owners telling us we just rent games/movies/software and it can be taken back at anytime. Cell phone carriers tracking where people are every minute and installing software that keeps track of what we do on our phones... Now Corporations can remove programs from customers' computers and the data generated using those programs without any permission or legal order. What is next? Maybe somebody will come with a reason to take everything I have in the bank to pay for the country's debt?
I'm not saying we are there now, but the ground is really being prepared for an Orwellian future.
I can't help but think of Ben Franklin and his famous quote: "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
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Quazimortal
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Seffrid posted:
Quazimortal posted:
You are the kind of person that truly terrifies me. In fact it's this kind of attitude that would truly justify terrorism. In the future you described I would be a part of the resistance fighting an unjust government and I would be labeled a terrorist.
I choose a more dangerous but free existence over your slavish but safe existence.
I'd choose it too.
I never said I favoured such a future, merely that it raised an interesting dichotomy.
My mistake, I read your post and assumed you were talking about something you wanted.
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Karsus_the_Great
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I am sure there will be some blurb in the Eula that nobody will read that states you agree they can take control of your computer and have free reign to scan it for anything they don't like and uninstall it.
I honestly agree with you Locuus and I can say I am a paranoid bastard at times haha. Especially when it comes to copywrong and tracking. Or the fact that they can order you to decrypt a hard drive and the court ruled it's not self incriminating, so no 5th amendment rights for you...
If I had my way I would ban corporate funded lobbying, change the entire copyright system, and ban all forms of public surveillance. That's just for starters! Holy crap, lets elect someone like us for president. lol
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Vyxar
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Finkleheimer posted:
Seffrid posted:
Vyxar posted:
No as a matter of fact I don't want suspected terrorists arrested because the term is a bogus media term like alleged rapist, murderer, child molester.
I want terrorists arrested. If they have the goods arrest them or kill them otherwise GTFO.
People only become terrorists after they have committed an act of terrorism and been convicted of such in a court of law. Until then they are merely suspected terrorists no matter what the evidential basis of those suspicions may be. If you want to wait until after people have been killed and maimed before arresting those responsible then so be it, but it's a pretty naive position to adopt.
If you want to wait until after people have been killed and maimed before arresting those responsible then so be it, but it's a pretty naive position to adopt.
That world that you envision is a world I'd would truly be scared to live in. Being capable of being arrested just for being suspect? No thank you. As deplorable as it is for such crimes to happen, it is even worse to arrest someone just on a notion that they MAY do something. That is how witch hunts came about in the first place. Salem witch trials are a -perfect- example of that type of world.
So this is like a Tom Cruise movie in your eyes that we can arrest those "responsible" people before they commit the crime.  
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Finkleheimer
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Vyxar posted:
Finkleheimer posted:
Seffrid posted:
[quote=Vyxar]No as a matter of fact I don't want suspected terrorists arrested because the term is a bogus media term like alleged rapist, murderer, child molester.
I want terrorists arrested. If they have the goods arrest them or kill them otherwise GTFO.
People only become terrorists after they have committed an act of terrorism and been convicted of such in a court of law. Until then they are merely suspected terrorists no matter what the evidential basis of those suspicions may be. If you want to wait until after people have been killed and maimed before arresting those responsible then so be it, but it's a pretty naive position to adopt.
If you want to wait until after people have been killed and maimed before arresting those responsible then so be it, but it's a pretty naive position to adopt.
That world that you envision is a world I'd would truly be scared to live in. Being capable of being arrested just for being suspect? No thank you. As deplorable as it is for such crimes to happen, it is even worse to arrest someone just on a notion that they MAY do something. That is how witch hunts came about in the first place. Salem witch trials are a -perfect- example of that type of world.
So this is like a Tom Cruise movie in your eyes that we can arrest those "responsible" people before they commit the crime. [/quote]
That's Seffrid's world. I said I'd be afraid to live in it  That quote function is nasty.
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Seffrid
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Why are you so afraid of a world in which people can be arrested because there is evidence of their intent to commit a crime? No-one is suggesting that people should be arrested without such evidence or a fair trial, least of all me. Do they actually have to commit the crime before you would have them arrested?
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Vyxar
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Seffrid posted:
Why are you so afraid of a world in which people can be arrested because there is evidence of their intent to commit a crime? No-one is suggesting that people should be arrested without such evidence or a fair trial, least of all me. Do they actually have to commit the crime before you would have them arrested?
Why are you so afraid of freedom?
The philosophy of control based on what the Govt perceives as the intent of people is pure insanity. We live in a world where what you do matters not what you want to do. Otherwise there's be a lot more supermodel marrying, billion dollar making, adonis looking, Einsteins out there.
I can intend to do a lot of things but in the immortal words of one Mr Richard Feynmann it's not what you "can" do it's what you "do" do.
We don't arrest people for crimes they might commit very often and nearly every time we start down that path whether it's drug or gun stings or to catch a predator it runs into trouble.
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Quazimortal
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I don't think Vyxar is choosing to be a productive member of this conversation. That would require reading. 
Okay, so according to Vyxar if we have evidence that someone could very likely be a terrorist we should just leave him alone until the bomb explodes. Fun times!
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Seffrid
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Quazimortal posted:
I don't think Vyxar is choosing to be a productive member of this conversation. That would require reading.
Okay, so according to Vyxar if we have evidence that someone could very likely be a terrorist we should just leave him alone until the bomb explodes. Fun times!
Thank you. At last someone gets the point.
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Greybear1andonly
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Possession of the BOMB is in itself a crime. Possession of the components is not otherwise we would have to lock up EVERY farmer and greenhouse operator since they would have the fertilizer and timers on their lights.
Owning a Gun is not a crime, criminals use guns, therefore not all gun owners are criminals. You can make laws against guns, but only the onest people follow the law which makes use more unsafe because its the dishonest people that you really dont want to be in possession of the gun.
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Vyxar
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Seffrid posted:
Quazimortal posted:
I don't think Vyxar is choosing to be a productive member of this conversation. That would require reading.
Okay, so according to Vyxar if we have evidence that someone could very likely be a terrorist we should just leave him alone until the bomb explodes. Fun times!
Thank you. At last someone gets the point.
You 2 can have each other. For centuries Earth was the center of the universe. Not "could very likely be" it was. Then someone a little bit more informed figured out it wasn't.
The guy next door could very likely be a communist. You should arrest him!
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Seffrid
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Greybear1andonly posted:
Possession of the BOMB is in itself a crime. Possession of the components is not otherwise we would have to lock up EVERY farmer and greenhouse operator since they would have the fertilizer and timers on their lights.
They'd have nothing to suggest any illicit intent. On the other hand, what about the basement flat dweller who possesses those components along with an internet manual on bomb-making? Presumably you'd leave him alone as he isn't breaking any law? The experience of the UK anti-terrorist police is that by the time someone has assembled a bomb it's probably too late, the time left to catch him before he uses it is too short, hence it's better to pick him up along with the evidence of what he was planning to do rather than give him the chance to do it. However, you keep him under surveillance until you're satisfied the evidence is there, rather than simply acting on unfounded suspicion.
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Ookane
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More Big Brother action - Windows 8 Apps Can be Remotely Removed by Microsoft
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Vyxar posted:
The guy next door could very likely be a communist. You should arrest him!
Last time I checked, being communist is not against the law. Of course, it's a broken idea, but I digress.
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chouranyu
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More Big Brother action - Windows 8 Apps Can be Remotely Removed by Microsoft
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Locuus posted:
Seems like everyone is coming with ways to control what people do. Cell phones track where you go without permission, On Star tracks as well and can stop your car without permission, the government can arrest call people terrorists and arrest them on suspicion only, and now MS is going a step further with this - they will be able to remove programs including any of the content generated by the programs from people's computers without asking.
http://www.maximumpc.com/article/news/windows_8_apps_can_be_remotely_removed_microsoft
You left out Amazon removed "1984" from Kindles without permission.
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More Big Brother action - Windows 8 Apps Can be Remotely Removed by Microsoft
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Locuus posted:
Seems like everyone is coming with ways to control what people do. Cell phones track where you go without permission, On Star tracks as well and can stop your car without permission, the government can arrest call people terrorists and arrest them on suspicion only, and now MS is going a step further with this - they will be able to remove programs including any of the content generated by the programs from people's computers without asking.
http://www.maximumpc.com/article/news/windows_8_apps_can_be_remotely_removed_microsoft
Nitpick: Only apps purchased through their version of their App Store will have this capability, and used primarily for malicious apps that make it through their screening process.
Given what happened to the Android app market at start-up this is a sensible precaution.
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Ookane
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Koneg posted:
Locuus posted:
Seems like everyone is coming with ways to control what people do. Cell phones track where you go without permission, On Star tracks as well and can stop your car without permission, the government can arrest call people terrorists and arrest them on suspicion only, and now MS is going a step further with this - they will be able to remove programs including any of the content generated by the programs from people's computers without asking.
http://www.maximumpc.com/article/news/windows_8_apps_can_be_remotely_removed_microsoft
Nitpick: Only apps purchased through their version of their App Store will have this capability, and used primarily for malicious apps that make it through their screening process.
Given what happened to the Android app market at start-up this is a sensible precaution.
You should know that there is NO excuse for Big Brother, so this is a moot point!
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Locuus
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The problem isn't exactly with what is happening today, but more with where things are headed.
Yes, Windows 8 will allow the removal of apps you got only from their app store. And they will probably use it in extreme cases for malware removal.
But that gets people used to the idea that it is OK for a company to remotely remove programs and data from their system without asking and with no court order.
Once people get used to the idea Windows 9/10/whatever might expand it to removing any program from a person's computer.
Then what? Other companies might ask Microsoft to remove programs/data they don't like on people's computers and be allowed. Maybe as an anti-piracy measure - for the good of everybody. Right.
Next hypothetical step - companies get the right to connect to people's computers and remove a program/data without even asking Microsoft.
Next maybe all our computers will be continually scanned for unwanted and unauthorized programs/data/usage... to "protect society and ward off terrorists" maybe.
See where I'm going? Do you think this is good and right? Would you like a future where you have no say in who does what to you and your property?
Somehow corporations always cry for "free" market and to be allowed to do whatever they like with no restrictions and regulations. To get corporate information even the government has to go through dozens of lawyers, courts and whatnot, and that is seen as a good thing.
When it comes to the actual citizens though (the very people a country is established by and made to protect) all of a sudden "free" and "privacy" are turning to be bad words.
When private citizens are concerned, more and more entities can mess with freedom and privacy on a whim and with no other reason that "for your own good".
If it were truly for MY good, then all these companies would give me an easy, clean way to opt-out of their "protection services". Or even better these "services" should be opt-in by default.
As for arresting people on suspicion - there is a reason we have a Constitution. There is a notion in the Constitution that is called separation of powers and one of the things it does is make the executive branch of government be in-check by the judicial branch - as in one's home cannot be searched without a warrant, one cannot be thrown in jail with no proof... as in innocent until proven guilty.
If a book on bomb-making is legally sold and the materials to make a bomb are legally sold, and one owns them, then they should not be arrested only because they own said materials. If the person has a violent/criminal history, then maybe there should be a court order forbidding them from owning such materials. Then they can be arrested for just having them in their house.
If the police suspect a regular Joe to be a bomb-maker they should watch him and try to get proof - get a court order to tap his phone or a court order to search his email etc. Not bust into his house and throw him in jail on a a pure suspicion and no proof. This system has actually worked quite good for the last couple of hundred years.
A lot of lobbyists have been pushing to reduce this separation of powers. Thanks to them it is now possible for the police/FBI/whatever to, for example, say they suspect you in terrorism with NO proof and throw you in jail and keep you there indefinitely with NO trial. I'm not saying they are doing it today, but the door is open - they can do it if they want to. To anybody.
The question should not be "what are you afraid of" - it should be "what gives them the right".
Every big change starts with baby steps and I don't like what they are changing our country into.
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Seffrid
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Locuus posted:
it is now possible for the police/FBI/whatever to, for example, say they suspect you in terrorism with NO proof and throw you in jail and keep you there indefinitely with NO trial. I'm not saying they are doing it today,
I am. Guantanamo Bay is proof of that. It doesn't happen in the UK where there has been considerable pressure to increase the amount of time someone can be held without being charged or appearing in court and it was defeated. We have very strict controls over that kind of thing and they are rigorously defended.
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Quazimortal
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Yeah, I can't stand the thought of someone being imprisoned with no proof of any crime. That is Dark Ages crap right there, and I'm not talking about the game.
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