Saxona
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New Rule: Keep Etiquette
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Many times when I'm doing a keep where there is a lot of spam in blue text, I often miss when people ask if I'm on the keep I'm currently doing in /region. This causes frustration for both parties, and I believe I am not the only one who has been on both sides of this unfortunate case. Since you can't change keep lord spam to a different color from region, I propose we use /advice from now on when asking if someone is on a keep. The advice is in a distinctively different color, and is difficult to be spammed out of someone's view.
Please vote and feel free to comment 
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PentegarnTheCabalist
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Why not just set your region color to something very eye catching. It's what I do
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Saxona
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PentegarnTheCabalist posted:
Why not just set your region color to something very eye catching. It's what I do
Because changing your /region color changes it to the same color as the keep lord spam.
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Asber
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I think what you meant to say is 'Because Keep Lord spam is in the /region channel'.
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menial
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I was under the impression that the keep lords and other encounters used /broadcast which is always blue. A change to your region color should make a difference, except when old school people like me use /b.
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robbie1687
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This new custom that people have recently developed of asking "anybody on ..." is a bad way to coordinate keeps. I recently had an unpleasant interaction with a bunch of people because of this new custom.
The problem is that the question is not directed to anybody in particular. Therefore, if nobody answers, you can't tell whether that means "no" or it means "yes but we didn't see the question."
Changing the color and channel doesn't solve the problem. You still won't be able to distinguish "no" from "yes but we didn't see the question."
We used to have a better way on Gaheris. During most of the nine years that Gaheris has existed, most people did things differently.
People usually directed their questions to particular people and groups. They didn't broadcast them to nobody in particular. When you ask particular people a question, they answer yes or no, and you can tell whether they saw the question.
Another advantage of the old way is that it's friendlier because it makes people more conscious of what other people are doing. It leads to friendly comments like, "Hey you want glen? I'll take beno."
Here's an example of the traditional method. First, before people went to a keep, they used to type /who <zone> to see who was in the same zone as the keep that they wanted to do.
Then, if people were in the zone, they would ask those people if they were on that keep. Sometimes they asked in /region and sometimes in /tells. If they asked in /region and didn't receive a quick answer, they would ask again in /tells.
The advantage of the traditional way is that you can keep asking until you get an answer, or until you're convinced the people are /afk.
In other words, with the traditional way, you know whether your question was seen or not. If the people fail to see the question, you know it.
Let me give an example. Suppose I want to do Glenlock. I type /who jamt and see four toons. Let's say they happen to be your (Saxona's) toons. They are all in Grace and their names start with Electro.
I would say in /region, "hiya grace, are you on glen?"
If there was no answer I would send tells: /send electrospasm hi are you on glen?
If still no answer, I would assume you're afk. But almost certainly you would have answered by now.
Of course there are variations. For example, "/region hi ian, which keep are you on?" and so forth.
The essential point is that questions are directed to particular people or groups. They aren't broadcast to nobody in particular.
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PentegarnTheCabalist
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I think the issue is less if they see it or not. After all, we have done it this way for years and for the most part it has been a smooth friendly ride. However there a new crop of players who don't understand, or don't want to understand the established etiquette on Gaheris, and they have been known to steal keep lords, refuse to answer the 'anyone on keep x' question, or even worse, answer ambiguously so you assume it is a no. It isn't the color of the text as much as it is the new rude crop of players that is the issue in my opinion.
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robbie1687
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PentegarnTheCabalist posted:
After all, we have done it this way for years and for the most part it has been a smooth friendly ride....
That's not how I remember things. My recollection is that asking "anybody on..." is a relatively recently change. During most of Gaheris's nine years, most people did it differently. The old method was smooth and friendly, but the new one causes problems. I had an unpleasant experience a few days ago because of "anybody on..."
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PentegarnTheCabalist
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Every time I have been out (until recently) asking "who is on keep x" got you an answer or no answer and off you would go. In the cases where someone missed the question it would be obvious they were doing the keep when you get there. The newer players who are doing keeps either don't ask, get there, and steal the lord out from under you if they can, or they give deliberate vague answers because "they think it is funny". This wasn't happening like this even 6 months ago. So I am forced to blame the newest crop as it is always the same couple of new people involved in the problems.
I get less annoyed that a question gets missed than I do when someone asks "anyone on x keep" and gets the reply "it's down". Wait what, I just saw it up? When you point this out to them though they say, "I was making a joke, I am on it, get a sense of humor" to which I say, "get a brain, we ask questions to get an answer, not to play Abbot to your unfunny version of Costello".
I won't get annoyed when I ask if someone is on keep x and (for example) it is Saxona and he just misses it in the confusion of a tough fight. I get there, see he is on it, say 'ah i see you are on it already, carry on'. And move on myself. Those kinds of mistakes happen, they aren't done deliberately. It's the lord thieves and vague answers that stick in my craw
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robbie1687
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PentegarnTheCabalist posted:
Every time I have been out (until recently) asking "who is on keep x" got you an answer or no answer and off you would go. In the cases where someone missed the question it would be obvious they were doing the keep when you get there.
First of all, it's not obvious to everyone. The other day, while I was on the glen lord, a group of people (not new players) came up on the roof and complained that I hadn't answered when they asked, "Anyone on glen."
They had walked past the hole in the wall, past the empty courtyard, past the broken inner door, past the empty interior, all the way to the roof. Then they complained that I hadn't answered their question. I replied to their complaint in region and received a lecture from some third party in region about how I don't know Gaheris customs. It's very annoying to get dragged into an argument like this while you're on a lord.
But my point is this. There was no reason for them to walk to Glen in the first place. If they had simply typed /who jamt before they started, they would have seen my keep group in Jamtland. If they had any doubts about whether the group was on glen they could have sent one or more tells. I missed their one question in /region, but I'm not going to miss several tells. I would have answered the tells and the whole nasty interaction would have been avoided.
PentegarnTheCabalist posted:
Those kinds of mistakes happen, they aren't done deliberately. It's the lord thieves and vague answers that stick in my craw
I agree with this and everything else you said about malicious people. But this thread isn't about malicious people. It's about etiquette, i.e., about how well-meaning people can best cooperate.
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Siolith
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Here's just an interesting idea to be tossed about lol. Why do we not just use the "trade" channel for keep communication? Advice and tells are both good ideas, but tbh advice is still used for a number of different things and tells can get confusing as well when trying to fight due to multiple lines of replies that can be generated at one time. I know personally at times I have 3-6 conversations going intells at once and it would be very easy to miss one asking about a keep especially when in the heat of combat and running multiple toons. /trade on the other hand is virtually never used on Gaheris anymore (at least I haven't seen it used in many years) and it has it's own unique color code seperate from /region. Just a thought. 
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robbie1687
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Siolith posted:
Why do we not just use the "trade" channel for keep communication?
No matter which channel and color are used, if people use the new custom of asking "anybody on ...?" it's inevitable that the question will sometimes be missed, and the questioner won't know whether it was missed, leading to the scenario I described in my last post.
The traditional system solves this problem. The traditional system didn't use a different color or channel. It asked a different kind of question. The traditional system directs the question not to "anybody" in general, but to particular groups and individuals.
With the traditional system, you know when the question was missed. With the new system ("is anybody on ...?) you do not know when the question was missed.
With the traditional system, since you know when the question was missed, it makes no difference which channel you use.
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menial
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Ok how about this: First you do a /realm, take notes of the keeps you wish to visit. Then log out, send this list to my email. I will then ignore it. Meanwhile you should do a /who and starting at the top of the trunicated list send a tell to each person asking "Are you currently killing roaming keep guards, beating down keep doors, clearing the walls, or fighting a keep lord at <name of keep> in <name of zone> on the Gaheris server? If not, are you planning on doing any of these activities at <name of keep> in <name of zone> on the Gaheris server within the next 365 days?
Keep spamming these questions until you get an answer or contacted by a CSR about harassment. Once you have completed the list you may then approach the keep and use /region and ask "Is anybody on <name of keep>?"
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Saxona
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menial posted:
I was under the impression that the keep lords and other encounters used /broadcast which is always blue. A change to your region color should make a difference, except when old school people like me use /b.
/region and /b are classified as the same. If you change /region, /b will be the same color.
I also usually do what Ribble described, to an extent. If I'm going to a keep, I do a /who and see if anyone is in the region. If it's someone I don't know, I ask "is anyone on ..". If I do know who it is, I send them tells to coordinate so I know which keep to hit next without having to guess if my next keep is the same another keep group had in mind.
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Saxona
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PentegarnTheCabalist posted:
I won't get annoyed when I ask if someone is on keep x and (for example) it is Saxona and he just misses it in the confusion of a tough fight. I get there, see he is on it, say 'ah i see you are on it already, carry on'. And move on myself. Those kinds of mistakes happen, they aren't done deliberately.
Not many people feel the same way you do, though. When the fastest speed you have is mounts or enchanter speed, people get really annoyed when they run all the way from OG to Glenlock just to find someone already on it.
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PentegarnTheCabalist
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So assuming the 'old way' is to do a /who and start sending tells everywhere, what happens when you run into people running /anon?
There is no perfect system, and no perfect solution. The crux of this discussion is keep etiquette, which goes both ways, not only do we need to be asking who is on keep x every time, we need to keep a sharp eye out for the question being asked in chat (part of this is, yes, making sure you have /reg in a bold color that stands out, another part is asking people in chat every time, and yet another part it patience) If you can't do these things on a server that is 'co op' then you are quite frankly on the wrong server.
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Mentalburn
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When I was doing keeps, would always do a /who (region) before going to those keeps and like robbie said.
I would ask those people if they were doing that keep, if they were then I'd goto a different realm.
Saying something like, ok you've got Glen/Rens and I'll goto Crauch or whatever keep was still avail.
It's just showing courtesy, seems like people in general lack that now.
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kobenator
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i always did what ribble said. if that wont work using some other channel definitely wont. and setting some non logical rule here wont work for people who never come here.
my big complaint was people who would go anon. but i only remember a couple groups doing that when i played and they would always eventually die, and id swoop on in and take their keep and play dumb because i never saw them on /who. a couple times of that and suddenly they would show up on /who.
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menial
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Saxona posted:
/region and /b are classified as the same. If you change /region, /b will be the same color.
I also usually do what Ribble described, to an extent. If I'm going to a keep, I do a /who and see if anyone is in the region. If it's someone I don't know, I ask "is anyone on ..". If I do know who it is, I send them tells to coordinate so I know which keep to hit next without having to guess if my next keep is the same another keep group had in mind.
Yeah I logged on after posting and played with the message and channel options and saw that. The rest of what I posted was just poking fun because no matter what gets decided here it will not be an official rule and there will always be A-holes who are going to ignore etiquette and the rules. Mind you I'm not one of those people though 
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tordensnegl
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well iam a new gaheris player, and i "allways" ask in region if someone is in that zone, if i know the person i would send a tell, but the problem is that the grps that i dont know i wont send a tell to asking i would just use region and if they dont answere i would run to the keep and check, if it then turned out that grp was on it well sucks to be me and i would move on to the next.
from what ive seen with the recently influx of euro players is that most of them are bad at english(yes i can say that as iam from europe aswell) its not that they are "rude" its that they might not understand what is being said and by that dont understand how things are normaly done here, now this is just a guess !
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WalterzRockz
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I think the /region system is fine as is. I agree with Pent that some newer players, and I welcome them to gaheris, thanks for your interest in our cool home, have done what they do and that's be new. Intentionally or unintentionally upsetting the apple cart. Either way let's be frank it doesn't matter in the big picture.
Some players that are running multiple accounts on a keep are very busy, or if you are like myself, and run several players out their with you, and are running only two accounts, you as leader, are still busy.
Herein lies the communication breakdown, and sometimes misunderstanding imho.
Busy/new players are just as likely or even more likely to be just busy /new. (Not asshats) But the /region system has blinded some like myself because it's how learned keeps and it has worked so well so far.
I like Ribble's suggestion of doing a /who and /sending a member in that region, even though it requires another step on my part. If others have others ways I'm sure they are good too, but at least TRibble's is done in the es spirit de corps we want to foster, so anything along those lines is a step forward.
We are not going to avoid these communication breakdowns however, so I suggest we just play nice and it will be easier to take. Also humming a few bars of Robert Plant can get you through some rough spots in /region or on Crunchy for that matter may help. Robert Plant is good, but if your feeling a little more aggressive, I suggest Phil Anslemo, and F===ing Hostile from Pantera always puts me in the mood for farming seals.
Lets expect to be in closer quarters at least until the end of October. Hopefully membership and player-ship increase and in more positive ways.
See ya out there Gaheris.
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WalterzRockz
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Oh yeah and as far as typing in/advice about taking keeps, I think that's a bad idea. I sometimes like to help players even when I'm not taking keeps, and if I were to be in jordheim say crafting, and I had to turn off /advice for the irrelevant keep chat it's a lose.
AS far as making up special uses for channels that seem to deviate from the general label DAoC has placed on them, I am guessing that you are going to ask for even more confusion by are already too often confused mates.
i.e
Walters says: Anyone on Glenlock?
Noob one says: Where is the trainer for CL levels?
Noob assistant one says: The are the guild trainers in starter towns, or SI capital cities, fighter, viking trainer for example.
Ribble says: yep
Noob Assistant two says: What CL line you speccing? I like to go to the SI capital cities cause you can port there.
Alph Says: What's up walt?
Walters says: Hello to Ribble when he arrives at Glen. Then rereads chat log and feels unobservant he drove two guildies to Glenlock, Now hates alternate use of /advice channel for the next 30 secs. and hopes the Boom Relic is up, even though it's melee madness.
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robbie1687
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PentegarnTheCabalist posted:
So assuming the 'old way' is to do a /who and start sending tells everywhere, what happens when you run into people running /anon?
You're right, /anon causes problems with keeps and that's why people should not use it while doing them. Making yourself visible on /who is a part of keep etiquette. This was widely understood and talked about in the old days.
However the problem corrects itself because people who farm keeps while /anon very quickly discover that they are creating problems for themselves.
You say "sending tells everywhere." This sounds like you think the old system requires you to send a lot of tells. That's not true. You usually ask only one question and you get an answer. Often you don't need to ask anything because you can see that nobody is in the zone.
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robbie1687
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kobenator posted:
i always did what ribble said. if that wont work using some other channel definitely wont. and setting some non logical rule here wont work for people who never come here.
So far as I can remember, everybody used to do it the old way. Suddenly last week I noticed that everybody now says "anybody on ...?" I don't know when it changed.
I've seen it now both ways, and I think the old way worked better. The old way created a friendlier, more social atmosophere because people kept track of what everybody else was doing and they talked about it.
Under the old system, I farmed thousands of keeps over many years and only had one bad experience. It works extremely well.
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Nabs01
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A situation I had: Leading a group of guildies on keeps I asked in /reg if anyone was on Glen (we were in Emain at the time). No answer & noone in Jamtland. We dart there with speed and took the back of the door down quite quickly and was in the courtyard killing the mobs when i noticed the front keep door come down. I said, "what's up, we're on Glen". By that time the courtyard mobs were dead and we took the inner door down in no time at all. Going up the stairs (afterall, we were in the courtyard and killed all the mobs first) this multi-toon player bum rushed us and ran up into the lords room. We decided to give it to this person and went to the bridge to split seals.
The argument this person had: "I just logged on and did a /who jamtland and noone was there so I went". So he felt this was his keep, even though we were in the courtyard already.
My group was in the middle of doing keeps, did a /who jamtland, asked in /reg, went to the back of Glen, made a hole and still had a problem!
Point: This was a misunderstanding as that person logged in and did a /who while we were in the process of going there and missed my /reg "anyone on glen". And we were much faster with a full group as we never take the main outer keep door anyway and were in back where he could not see us. Therefore, Do a /who and a /reg "anyone on <keep>! And if there aren't any outside mobs that you notice, someone is probably on it. We used a CT so it took a little time. Another point, there is more than the main keep door to get into the keep.
In any event, that person was in such a hurry to get to the lord he wiped. After our seals were split and noticed that, we went and killed the lord.
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PasswordLLOTH
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i always answer in the affirmative when someone region spams asking who is on XXX keep
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Quazimortal
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I'd like to make a point here as an outside observer. You will never fix the problem unless you start naming names. Someone rushes past you and kills the keep lord after you did all the work of clearing trash and taking down doors? Call them out publicly! Someone wants to be a whiny little punk cause you were too busy killing the keep lord to answer their generic question? Call them out publicly!
After enough bad rep starts piling up they will either change their attitudes or have to deal with absolutely no respect from any of the other keep teams.
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PasswordLLOTH
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New Rule: Keep Etiquette
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respect from keep teams isn't important anyhow
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"Password, you and I both know your posting style is quintessential of baiting/trolling." - Chanell
"never listen to anything Password says, he is a creature devoted to chaos and misery. " - Pentegarn
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Quazimortal
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So you don't mind people ignoring your presence and taking a keep you are on? I say fight fire with fire, if your rep is to steal keeps then by all means steal their keeps. Eye for an eye.
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PentegarnTheCabalist
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New Rule: Keep Etiquette
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PasswordLLOTH posted:
respect from/for keep teams isn't important anyhow
fixed for clarity
The offenders in question don't seem to care about giving or getting respect. Oh sure when they first arrived on the server they were friendly enough, but as soon as they got what they needed from the gaheris natives they decided to show their true colors.
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kobenator
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New Rule: Keep Etiquette
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there are back doors on keeps now?
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PentegarnTheCabalist
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New Rule: Keep Etiquette
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Well some keeps you can break a wall instead of the first door. If group 1 breaks the wall then group 2 breaks the door because they did not know to break the wall instead, group 2 would in fact 'back door' the keep
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Mykkael
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I think I would have to agree with Quaz. Name names in public. Mistakes are one thing, but being rude over and over is another thing.
Even if they don't care about how they look, it is good as a warning to others who are actually cool online.
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kobenator
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did they change the breaking of walls? i remember it being extremely time consuming.
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Legiliwin
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New Rule: Keep Etiquette
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If you want to do a keep and /realm says it is occupied do a /who <zone>. If it looks even remotely like a keep group is in that zone move on to the next keep on realm list. Asking is just a waste of time. If there is a possible keep group in the zone and u spend 3-4 mins (or more) sending tells or just asking in region you could have alrdy found alternate destination and pretty much been there and killing patrols. For those that wish to ask.. whether it be in tells or in channel.. if you do not like or appreciate the response you get... REPLYING DOES NOT ACCOMPLISH ANYTHING NOR WILL IT PROVE ANY KIND OF EXAMPLE TO OTHERS WHATSOEVER. Especially if that reply is also negative, demeaning, critical or harsh. Lowering yourself to the level of the chat offender has never ended well, has always caused additional problems and prolongs the issue in chat when not responding at all would have ended it immediately. Remembering the toon name or guild as someone you would rather steer clear of, going on about your business of playing and keeping your mouth shut is and always will be the only proper way of dealing with rude or offensive people in chat. Any other course of action involving you replying to them in chat only makes you as annoying as the original poster and if you get negative in your response it makes you every bit as offensive.
Having to get the last word shows ignorance not intelligence. Ignoring them and not replying at all is brilliant.
If you feel you just cannot let it go without speaking your mind I would suggest you look to see what friends are online. Send one a tell explaining what happened and ask if you can vent a minute. Do your venting, feel better, and go on with your game. Prolonging the negative chat in any open channel only makes you EXACTLY the same as the person that started the negative chat. Whether or not they are headed to a keep, at a keep, inside a keep or whatever is totally irrelevent. If you see a possible keep group in your target zone.. find another target and check back later. No region, no advice, no tells no anything. Just find somewhere else to play. If there are several groups in NF and no matter where u look there is a grp in that zone then you simply picked a bad time to do keeps. Find something else to do.
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PasswordLLOTH
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Legiliwin posted:
Lowering yourself to the level of the chat offender has never ended well, has always caused additional problems and prolongs the issue in chat when not responding at all would have ended it immediately
/flex
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VN_Somniac
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New Rule: Keep Etiquette
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Jenny, with good melee dmg (melee group or ml9 pets) you can drop a keep wall faster than the front door.
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kobenator
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what changed? i remember breaking down both doors in one hoa charge.
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_Tonka_
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I always /who the zone I am considering taking keeps in, then send a tell, and /b.
If I don't get a response I just run to the keep.
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spy33
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or you all could be non lazy fucks , read to see which keep is up in realm then run your asses out there like i did.
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Ziris
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New Rule: Keep Etiquette
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Set you /afk flag to what keep you are on and problem solved?
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PentegarnTheCabalist
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Ziris posted:
Set you /afk flag to what keep you are on and problem solved?
That idea is not too bad actually
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kobenator
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the best solution would be for mythic to add that realm war map thing that showed which keeps were being attacked.
since that wont happen, you want to make sure your solution requires the least amount of work. so far ribbles post outlines the least amount of work. setting /afk messages would have to be done way more often then the amount of tells you would have to send when checking a zone.
really it just comes down to talking to people and asking them what they are doing. not hard.
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Holly_GoLightly
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just dropping in to say hello, lots of really cool people in this thread imo
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Nabs01
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Adding my coolness to page 2 of this thread  /hugz Jazz and all!
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LordWhiteTiger
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/reg anyone on ____________ <no answer> /reg headed to _________ if you're there, tough tit!
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http://gimpchimp.etilader.com/display.php?user=Albhir, Albhir2, Albhir3 GM: The Ruffian Band (Hib) White Tigers (Alb) Royal White Tigers (Mid) GM: Black Ruffian Dragons (Gaheris) Ard Tiarna Ubershorty (Officer for The Jaded Ones *Gaheris*)
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WeeWarrior
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Silkenrune
I cant belive the stoopidity of the statement "This NEW WAY has been happening for the last few weeks! I know he was useing the /Reg to organize his keep taking with Alp and Nabs and co a LOT longer than a "Few" weeks ago. He was one of the most active keep takers out there and used the "NEW" system like everyone else for years. Give it a rest. The /Reg system is the simplest and easiest method and it is proven to work...at least for the 2 years plus I have been here....two weeks my butt. The only times it gets messed up is human error and that will happen or just plain idjits who dont play well with others^^.
Silk
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