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Welcome to the Vault Network
forum archive.
This is not a complete archive, time didn't allot us the
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Topic: Here is the problem with WoW
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-Mithan-
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Subject:
Here is the problem with WoW
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WoW is 6+ years old now and most of the people who play this game have probably put in literally thousands of hours of play time. The have not played since January when I cancelled my account for the first time, but before that, I used to take 9-12 month breaks between expansions and even I had about 150-225 days of /played time in total. (I can't believe I wasted that much of my life, but whatever, it was fun).
Do you really think there is anything GC can do to keep a game like this "fresh" ? I mean, at some point, even the most die hard person's brain is just going to reject doing the same thing over and over and over again and want something fresh, something that new "lands" just cant provide.
This is why I keep clamoring for new gameplay types in WoW, but the fact is, WoW is WoW and adding a lot new gameplay dynamics just isn't in the cards and never will be until a sequel comes out in all likelihood. New dungeons, land zones, pets, armor types, quests, etc, etc are fine and dandy, but they get very old very quick now for those of us playing the game.
These days, just the idea of logging into the zone makes me puke a little in my mouth. My brain goes into instant "no, we've done this too much, there is nothing new, leave it alone" mode. Of course, the idea of easier instances now makes me sort of get past this as I think I might want to go farm some equipment, but with all the other kick ass games coming out in the next 5 months, who cares.
What also sucks is WoW's effects on other games. I know in my own situation, WoW has made it HARD to play any other MMO that is remotely similar. I played Rift (great game) but for me, it feels exactly like WoW and I got turned off after about 30-40 hours of play and cancelled it. Now, perhaps if Rift wasn't exactly like WoW with different textures, this wouldn't have been such a problem, but I don't know.
I am praying SWTOR isn't the same but from what I hear, it is similar in a lot of respects. Still, I am hoping the space theme and single player focus is enough to keep me going, else I will quit that pretty quick due to it feeling the "same" and "repetitive" even if it is a good game.
I guess my point is, there is only so much you can do for gamers like us before we get sick of a game. This doesn't mean WoW sucks, it just means we are sick of it and want something different, or at the very least, we need a LONG break from the game.
If you are really burned out on WoW, do what I do and take a break, or just a break from gaming for a while. It actually goes a long way to renewing your passion for it if you stay away from everything for 4 or 5 months or play something different.
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I survived to the end and got nothing out of it, but hey.
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_Kewk_
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Here is the problem with WoW
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I took a short break and then came back to my guild being completely dead coz of RL and Rift. I found a new guild that raided on weekends I was was like lolwin. Then I moved to Horde Blackrock and running a new guild from the ground up. The game is completely fresh to me now because of all these things regardless of stagnant or rehashed content.
ATM I am having fun learning to work with a new group of people and powering through content.
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JaconKin
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Subject:
Here is the problem with WoW
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Aye I agree Mithan, there is the fact that when you play a game for so long nothing can be done to make the game fresh so to speak for those players. The combat is going to play out like it has as well as other matters in the game. Yet, I still think Blizzard could do a better job at delivering different content at times than what it currently does. This is the reason the game has gone stale, but the actual lack of fresh ideas to push and innovate. Instead, each expansion plays out the same, and the end game is the same. Also not to mention the bait and switch that is pulled on the player. Leveling is so easy and soloable that you hit the end game and you hit the brick wall.
Personally, I would rather see them after the next expansion, leave WoW and make Warcraft 4. Then after this make WoW 2. Just like what you bring up with the players, I think in many ways, the current version of WoW needs to "die" and Blizzard needs to take a break from WoW itself, create a new RTS game, and then build off of that for a WoW 2.
As far as TOR is concerned, I will most likely get that at some point in time as previously discussed, and play it only as a single player game for the most part. Yet, from the talk I have heard who know people in Beta, the same issues that are currently facing WoW are going to be the same issues that will eventually occur with TOR. I have zero interest in playing the game as a MMO. I also think this is going to be what occurs actually. You will have more people, especially MMO players who as you described with your experience with Rift, who have grown tired of the MMO mechanics of yester year and want something different. Then you bring in the non MMO player, who just wants to experience KOTOR. It doesn't matter if it is a MMO. They'll play the game like they did KOTOR. Hence, You will have probably more people playing it as a KOTOR game I think than as a MMO.
I intend to level a Chiss, first time I will play a "bad" guy, because Grand Admiral Thrawn is probably my favorite character in the EU. Not sure what class, and perhaps another character on the other side. We'll see, I don't intend to purchase TOR at release and it may be a month or so before I even buy the game.
-----signature-----
Looking Forward to Guild Wars 2 and serving crow.
Currenlty Writing: The Web of Life.
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Sprawl-zero1eye-
Title: IGN Vault Staff
Reziztance iz Futile
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Subject:
Here is the problem with WoW
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I too feel like I might be burnt out on the genre as a whole, unless something new and exciting comes down the pipe. Having played swtor a bit, I can tell you, it does not redefine the genre. Don't get me wrong, I will pick it up when it is released, but I don't foresee myself playing for 2+ years like I might have in the past.
-----signature-----
Mirkwood MUD, OneEye IvoryFang, Lord of the VampireZ (Retired) AC Frostfell, Clan Z - Lvl 239 Grief Dagger (Retired) WoW Lightbringer Alliance, Z Guild - Lvl 85 Combat Rogue (Retired) Making iOS Apps these days at http://zsprawl.com/iOS
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Talehon69
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Subject:
Here is the problem with WoW
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-Mithan- posted:
I am praying SWTOR isn't the same but from what I hear, it is similar in a lot of respects. Still, I am hoping the space theme and single player focus is enough to keep me going, else I will quit that pretty quick due to it feeling the "same" and "repetitive" even if it is a good game.
It's WoW with Lightsabers and Laser guns.
I'm just waiting for GW2/Diablo 3.
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kuide
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Subject:
Here is the problem with WoW
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I have to disagree,there are lots of things that can be done.
1.Make a few new test servers with different rule sets,and guage the reaction.
2.Add a 3rd faction and make some new bg's that are 3 way instead of just 2. (War-3 had 4 factions)
3.Add dungeon falls,that will open to the faction with the most pvp objectives complete.(with top pvp loot.
There are many things they could try without hurting the game,but they seem stuck on the same model.Wow to me just felt like an instance and not a world,that's why I left.
To keep the subscriptions up, I think they need to think outside the box a little and add content that's more than just fluff or a rep grind.
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Elaok
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Subject:
Here is the problem with WoW
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I got a res scroll from a friend the other day and logged on did ZA got him his bear and i haven't played since
I am also in SW:TOR beta after playing it a bit i got off and started playing Minecraft and built a big ass Library
i'll probably buy SW:TOR because it will be a sweet single player game but as a long term MMO like WoW has been for me... no it isn't going to suck me in
I agree Mithan no MMO is really doing anything different from the WoW model i'm tired of errand/kill 10/kill X quests.. i'm tired of daily quest rep grinds but if i could run dungeons with a Tabard i'd be okay with that i rather grind mobs than have to remember to log in and do quests for 2 weeks
It really feels like games are doing as little as possible at this point.. well except maybe Rift damn every patch they release a raid or 2 and big PvP changes
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Fedup23
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Subject:
Here is the problem with WoW
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You are spot on Mithan. I would wager most of the "hate" for WoW comes from people who finally realize how much of their lives they have actually wasted playing a game. They woke up and found out they were bored after 5 ,6 or even 7 years and have now decided "WoW sucks". Its the jilted lover syndrome. They put their lives into WoW , which in turn just "used" them. Broken hearts ensued.
Some people have taken the bait of Rift. Its the same crappy lover.. yet it has shaved/got its hair did (haha), put on some perfume/cologne and said "It'll be different this time, I swear" I think that Rifts mediocre success might actually be a bad thing for veteran MMO players. It tells companies that they can just do enough to make it seem different yet re-releasing WoW with a new skin = profit. Many of the drones will zombiewalk over to plunk down their money because they get what they want.. they get to play WoW without having to admit they play WoW.
/shrug at the end of the day.. who cares. 
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steveC91
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Subject:
Here is the problem with WoW
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The fail was excluding players from the end game.
In Wotlk they gave everyone access to endgame, yes it lost some players who raced through the content because it was too easy for them.
But it kept a lot of players happy like the ones who didn’t have time or the skill to spend hours and hours learning boss fights.
We were happy doing normal modes killing a few bosses collecting the odd piece of loot and that’s what kept us playing and paying.
We were having fun .
Blizzard were arrogant thinking they could turn back the clock with the difficulty lvl or inspire people to learn how to play better.
I, like a lot of people on this board spent many years playing Asherons Call and tbh I liked WoW because it was similar.
I have quit playing WoW for now because it is not fun anymore.
Maybe Blizz will change things maybe not.
They have given a lot of players an excuse to try something else and that could be a good thing.
-----signature-----
In the heat and the rain,
With whips and chains,
To see him fly.
So many die.
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_Kewk_
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Subject:
Here is the problem with WoW
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kuide posted:
I have to disagree,there are lots of things that can be done.
1.Make a few new test servers with different rule sets,and guage the reaction.
2.Add a 3rd faction and make some new bg's that are 3 way instead of just 2. (War-3 had 4 factions)
3.Add dungeon falls,that will open to the faction with the most pvp objectives complete.(with top pvp loot.
There are many things they could try without hurting the game,but they seem stuck on the same model.Wow to me just felt like an instance and not a world,that's why I left.
To keep the subscriptions up, I think they need to think outside the box a little and add content that's more than just fluff or a rep grind.
Make WoW DAoC. Got it.
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Conceited
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Subject:
Here is the problem with WoW
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_Kewk_ posted:
kuide posted:
I have to disagree,there are lots of things that can be done.
1.Make a few new test servers with different rule sets,and guage the reaction.
2.Add a 3rd faction and make some new bg's that are 3 way instead of just 2. (War-3 had 4 factions)
3.Add dungeon falls,that will open to the faction with the most pvp objectives complete.(with top pvp loot.
There are many things they could try without hurting the game,but they seem stuck on the same model.Wow to me just felt like an instance and not a world,that's why I left.
To keep the subscriptions up, I think they need to think outside the box a little and add content that's more than just fluff or a rep grind.
Make WoW DAoC. Got it.
Nah, simpler yet. Make the WoW PvP system not complete [tos_profanity].
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Conceited
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-Peo-
Title: Caveat Lector
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Subject:
Here is the problem with WoW
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There are also alot of things you can do to make a game fresh that don't complete screw up the game.
Problem is, GC can't seem to not do those things. Deflecting away from the fact that Greg Street, aka ghostcrawler, is a terrible developer that let's his ego dictate what direction the game takes and how to respond to his player base, does not change the fact that Cata sucks and it is his fault. I am sure you think that the fact that WoW is losing significant subs for the 1st time and the fact that Cata was released (and its a crappy expac to say the least) is just a coincidence.
But I don't.
-----signature-----
SWTOR, Maybe in a year.
Back to WoW for now.
With a lil f2p CoH.
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GutterSludge
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Subject:
Here is the problem with WoW
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I really don't think the time has anything to do with it, as WOW saw its peak of success with Wrath.
As already stated, people liked this "Wrath model", and GC and Blizz and company went so far in the other direction with Cata that they are driving people away.
GC's 'vision' just sucks.
It's that simple.
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Guttersludge
People just can't handle the truth.
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njwCSUS posted:I'm homosexual, so really, its ongoing sexual attraction to my father, not my mother.
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Spookysheep
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Subject:
Here is the problem with WoW
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I don't agree that "burnout" is the primary reason at all. It probably is for some people, but the reality is that WoW was at the top of its game in WOTLK. They had finally perfected the formula. They could have kept that formula and added new lands/zones/dungeons once every 6 months and WoW's numbers would still be growing.
Just that simple.
Sweeping changes to the actual system of play has killed practically every MMO to date. When players are happy (evidenced by growing OR sustained subscriptions), only a total moron decides its time to "change the formula."
Blizzard could have simply changed the old lands (like they did) to make 1 to 60 interesting again, added enough new lands for TEN new levels of content, then made the new dungeons and raids at the same relative difficulty level that they were in wrath, adding new stuff once every 6 months, and they would be looking at way over 12 million players still.
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I liek cheese
Pirates > Ninjas
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JaredKorry
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Subject:
Here is the problem with WoW
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Spookysheep posted:
I don't agree that "burnout" is the primary reason at all. It probably is for some people, but the reality is that WoW was at the top of its game in WOTLK. They had finally perfected the formula. They could have kept that formula and added new lands/zones/dungeons once every 6 months and WoW's numbers would still be growing.
Just that simple.
Sweeping changes to the actual system of play has killed practically every MMO to date. When players are happy (evidenced by growing OR sustained subscriptions), only a total moron decides its time to "change the formula."
Blizzard could have simply changed the old lands (like they did) to make 1 to 60 interesting again, added enough new lands for TEN new levels of content, then made the new dungeons and raids at the same relative difficulty level that they were in wrath, adding new stuff once every 6 months, and they would be looking at way over 12 million players still.
I would have to agree with Spooky. For the first 6 years of the game, I loved the pally class so much that I leveled 3 or 4 of them (across different servers) to max level. I dpsed, tanked and healed on them. When Cata came, they changed the pally class for all 3 specs so drastically that I can't stand to play that class anymore.
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Quazimortal
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Here is the problem with WoW
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Stupid holy power... 
-----signature-----
“A painter paints his pictures on canvas. But musicians paint their pictures on silence.
We provide the music, and you provide the silence.†~Leopold Stokowski
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GutterSludge
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Subject:
Here is the problem with WoW
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Quazimortal posted:
Stupid holy power...
What, you mean all paladins did not want to have a combo point system like rogues?
No way!!
-----signature-----
Guttersludge
People just can't handle the truth.
NeMeFieD said:"Yea I Ucmed for 12 days straight.."
njwCSUS posted:I'm homosexual, so really, its ongoing sexual attraction to my father, not my mother.
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-Abysmal-
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Subject:
Here is the problem with WoW
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i have quit a few times, and i'm back again.
i cant believe how easy the game has become, but i also am enjoying some of the new content.
as an altoholic though, it will soon irritate me as i rehash the *new* areas.
i have found the redone areas fun, but disappointed to find not all have been redone.
the major irritations i have are out-leveling zones (especially on a rested alt) and not knowing where the hell to go for materials.
plus i am broke as a joke and approaching flying time on alts.
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Now i LIVESTRONG GO PATRIOTS Yankees SUCK!  I wish AC looked better, I miss it  I love you forever Jamie
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Dums
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Subject:
Here is the problem with WoW
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Mithan, swtor is basically the same as wow. The voice acting and stuff like that is nice but only makes up a tiny portion of the game.
It's got that star wars feel and that'll be enough for some people for a few months. After that, the stiff graphics and wow-like carrot chasing will close in and people will be disappointed.
-----signature-----
hi
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Elaok
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Here is the problem with WoW
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Dums posted:
Mithan, swtor is the same as wow. The voice acting and stuff like that is nice but only makes up a tiny portion of the game.
the voice acting stuff grew very old after 14 levels 
I don't care to hear your excuses as to why you are weak and some slaves over powered you and took supplies JUST LET ME KILL THEM AND BRING BACK THE STUFF
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Phexx
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Subject:
Here is the problem with WoW
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GutterSludge posted:
I really don't think the time has anything to do with it, as WOW saw its peak of success with Wrath.
As already stated, people liked this "Wrath model", and GC and Blizz and company went so far in the other direction with Cata that they are driving people away.
GC's 'vision' just sucks.
It's that simple.
I think you go too far by saying time doesn't have ANYTHING to do with the decline. Sure WoW was still successful up to Wrath, but time has an affect on any game, and with MMO's it's magnified. There is always going to be the "been there done that" attitude and as time passes it spreads.
Myth is right in that you can't totally change a game. This is WoW, it's always going to be WoW. To make wholesale changes to the dungeon system, or the combat system, you are going to basically change from WoW to WoW 2. Why would the devs bother to do that instead of making a whole new game? Even if one system were changed it wouldn't be enough to make WoW feel new.
A game as old as this cannot be revitalized with a few simple changes. Sure some of the changes might seem cool to some players, but the old player base will always harken back to the day.
At this point in time, WoW is a senior citizen. It's not dead, it's dieing. A game with WoW's sub base will take a long time to die to be sure, but it's dieing all the same.
-----signature-----
meh
No matter what I said in my post, I actually do, according to VN policy, agree with everything anyone else has said in this thread.
QQing without highspeed internet.
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The_Korrigan
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Here is the problem with WoW
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It's obvious that the game age IS part of the "decline". Same thing for 7 years.
Some people on their own agenda want to believe it's mostly because of Cata and Ghostcrawler that the game finally (after 7 DAMNED YEARS) starts to slightly decline. Fact is many people are just tired of seeing WoW after all this time, and the changes to the old world weren't enough to make them want to explore, Stormwind is still Stormwind even with flying and the claws of Deathwing in two towers.
Yeah, there are some changes to the game I also disagree with, notably the dumbing down of classes and talent trees. On that, yes, I agree, the game reached it's top in WotLK, and declined. But the rest of the game is still exactly the same. Quests, Reputations, PvP/Honor, Dungeons, Raid, still the same thing... and yes, after 7 years, many got tired of it, not only because the model didn't change, but also because the landscape didn't change (still Azeroth, still Blackrock Mountain, etc...).
Mithan is definitely right when he says WoW is not even remotely close to die. Hell, CRAP games were able to survive several years after their crappy bugged release. WoW is not crappy and bugged, it's still the smoothest experience for the newcomer and the oldtimer alike. It will easily do 5 more years, if not 10, even if subs drop, because with still 10+ million "health", there's a huge margin before death.
I'm 100% sure now that I will not be playing WoW the day the game really shuts down. But I kept some common sense and WoW is definitely FAR from being even remotely dead today.
-----signature-----
SWTOR: 50 Jedi Shadow (Tank), 50 Sith Marauder (Annihilation).
LOTRO: Lifetime account, playing very casually.
WoW: Both accounts canceled for now.
GW2: Future Warrior.
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JaconKin
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Here is the problem with WoW
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As I have stated in another thread now, since Asheron's Call and Everquest still have people playing them and are not "dead", thus it will be for WoW. WoW will never truly be dead, until Blizzard decides to axe the servers themselves. Will WoW diminish like AC and EQ, certainly.
As far as why WoW is declining, to sit there and say that this is the definitive reason is just wrong. There are several reasons that it is seeing decline and all of them are contributing factors. These include the age of the game and how Cata plays in comparison to Wrath, as well as other issues that Cata has in regards to the overall game.
Yet, to say that Blizzard, one of the most talented developers in PC games, can't at least come up new systems to add to the game is just ludicrous. For instance, the Path of the Titans system was one feature many players were excited to see in the game, and it got scrapped and Archeology got changed due to it no longer being related to the actual Path of Titans. This makes archeology for the most part a completely useless secondary profession because unlike fishing and first aid, that actually has a purpose in the game for your character, archeology does nothing, except for RNG Rare loot.
Another complaint is the nerfing and buffing according to PVP. You mean to tell me that as talented as Blizzard is that they can't come up with a system were your PVE skills act one way and PVP skills act another with completely different stats. Of course, I suppose the main issue for this lies in the fact of World PVP. Hence, the solution would be simply that World PVP retains the stats of PVE skill stats, only when you enter a structured PVP format will your skills take on the PVP form the stats. This would at least alleviate some of the constant buffing and nerfing that is rampant with any new expansion.
You mean to tell me that Blizzard couldn't introduce a system similar to Skirmishes that are found in LOTRO, to give casual players content for them to play and explore while earning rewards in that system. I mean apparently they have enough time to introduce a cosmetic system in the game, that doesn't really add any new content to the game really. It does change how people can spend their time in the game I suppose, chasing after the gear sets they like, but it is nothing that is actually NEW and changes why the players should be paying blizzard to play the game.
That is the most important aspect when it comes to the game, you have pay to play. So, if Blizzard isn't providing anything new in the last 7 years that really changes how people spend their time in the game or why people should keep giving Blizzard a sub fee, you see the results of a decline for a variety of reasons not just one definitive reason.
Even the polished and refinement that Blizzard has been able to do during the course of WoW lifetime isn't enough to keep sustaining it with out at least adding in new ways for people to play and spend their time in the game, and I don't mean just running around collecting old armor sets. Blizzard should have been leading the way in many ways with pushing innovation in the MMO Genre space with them having the money to actually do so with WoW's success. Yet, they haven't, they have been content with just letting things ride out the way they have because it has seen them get the "12 Million" subs they previously had, so the model has been successful for them up to a point.
Anyway, I don't buy the fact that oh its a seven year game and it has just gotten stale, the only reason it has gotten stale is because Blizzard themselves grew too content in earning the money they were and didn't see any reason to risk and add new forms of content to change how people play the game in the genre they have been dominating the last 7 years.
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Talehon69
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GutterSludge posted:
Quazimortal posted:
Stupid holy power...
What, you mean all paladins did not want to have a combo point system like rogues?
No way!!
I actually like Holy Power. I can see why Healers wouldn't, but as Ret and Prot, I enjoy it.
jaconkin posted:
Another complaint is the nerfing and buffing according to PVP. You mean to tell me that as talented as Blizzard is that they can't come up with a system were your PVE skills act one way and PVP skills act another with completely different stats. Of course, I suppose the main issue for this lies in the fact of World PVP. Hence, the solution would be simply that World PVP retains the stats of PVE skill stats, only when you enter a structured PVP format will your skills take on the PVP form the stats. This would at least alleviate some of the constant buffing and nerfing that is rampant with any new expansion.
EQ2 actually has a system where skills just function differently when used on players by default. No special thing required for BGs or anything. It's already in WoW, take a look at CC skills, like Polymorph or Repentance. The tech is there, they just don't use it.
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Trigeminal
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40 minute DPS queues.
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Spookysheep
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Still waiting for someone to post evidence, any at all, that "7" is the magic number that contributes to decline, when the game saw nothing but exponential growth for the first 6.
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GutterSludge
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Don't hold your breath 
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Ugh_Lancelot
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While I don't doubt that some of the playerbase is getting tired of WoW, the top contributors to people I know (or discuss with online) leaving WoW are:
1) The gutting of any choice in talents in 4.0.
2) The drastic redesign of class mechanics in 4.0.
3) The further "on-rails" design of quests, including railroading low-level quest zones. (Want to skip a zone and start in the middle? DENIED!) Does anyone even remember what it was like choosing whether or not to do quests that were orange/red to you? 
4) The angular change in difficulty ("CC is now required", gratuitous AoE, etc.) of instances in Cataclysm.
Only one of these can be mitigated with experience/gear. Hell, even my mother complains about the changes making the game boring and she's never been a raider and has only run instances when I PL her through them.
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JaconKin
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Spookysheep posted:
Still waiting for someone to post evidence, any at all, that "7" is the magic number that contributes to decline, when the game saw nothing but exponential growth for the first 6.
Nah Spooky, 7 isn't the magic number, it is 12, 12 years of similar game type based on the EQ Model, Refined by WoW, then copied ad nauseum from this in every game due to WoW's success.
Though I do get the point you are making, as I said in my post, I think there are several contributing factors that is seeing the decline, age just being one of the many.
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Fedup23
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Spookysheep posted:
Still waiting for someone to post evidence, any at all, that "7" is the magic number that contributes to decline, when the game saw nothing but exponential growth for the first 6.
I play less and less because after 7 years I am pretty bored with the game. Thats all the evidence I can give you. I hope its a start!
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Spookysheep
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Fedup23 posted:
Spookysheep posted:
Still waiting for someone to post evidence, any at all, that "7" is the magic number that contributes to decline, when the game saw nothing but exponential growth for the first 6.
I play less and less because after 7 years I am pretty bored with the game. Thats all the evidence I can give you. I hope its a start!
Seven year itch?
You change games like you change teh womenz sir!
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The_Korrigan posted:
WoW is not crappy and bugged
Whether the game is crappy or not is a very subjective thing so I won't argue it at all, but to claim WoW isn't buggy is absolutely ridiculous. I run into bugs in WoW every single day I choose to log in.
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