VN Boards Archive

[VN Boards Archive]

Welcome to the Vault Network forum archive.

This is not a complete archive, time didn't allot us the opportunity to properly backup the majority of the boards deemed "expendable". Most boards on this list have at least 20-40 pages archived (non-logged in pages, 15 topics per page).

Popular boards may have as many as 250 pages archived at 50 topics per page, while others deemed of historical signifigance may be archived in their entirety.

We may not agree with how the board shutdown was managed, but we've done what we could to preserve some of its history in lieu of that.

Please enjoy the archive.
~ Managers, Moderators, VIP's, and regular posters.

Author

Topic: Class Balance testing on the PTR

Vault_News Title: 0110011010 Be Nice to Me I'm a Bot Posts: 43,785 Registered: Oct 18, '05 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 42,467 User ID: 1,086,234	Subject: Class Balance testing on the PTR
	Bashiok posted: The PTR does not exist solely for balance feedback. They provide crash reports, bug reports, having the patches simply live on a test environment with people actively playing helps us catch a great number of issues that no one would even need post about. Beyond that though the bug reports that are posted are extremely helpful, and overall the PTRs lead without a doubt to a more stable patch than it would have been were there no public test. In direct answer to what you're referring, unless there's new content, the number of people on the PTR is really pretty low. Too low to pull reliable metrics to base balance changes on. Unless there's new content to drive people to the PTR there generally just isn't a sample size. Which is fine, because we can make changes after the PTR once the patch hits the live realms. Issuing hotfixes after a patch is by no means something new. We've used hotfixes for quite a long time, but since Cataclysm and the new community site, hotfix changes are front page news through the blogs. Which is awesome. Before we were throwing out pretty much the same amount of hotfixes we were after 4.0.6. Difference being we didn't have a great way to tell anyone about them. So now hotfixes are very visible and it makes it seem like we're going crazy with them, when really it's just increased transparency into the changes we're making. Going back to your question, the PTR does many great things for the patches, and it should be expected that we're not going to make balance changes based on forum posts alone. The designers don't believe their own play experience is reason enough to make balance changes, although it can be one part of the puzzle, and the same goes for us reading about yours. Posted from WoW Vault -----signature----- (none)
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Ugh_Lancelot Title: Ooo...bouncy! Posts: 5,492 Registered: Jun 17, '02 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 5,446 User ID: 689,383	Subject: Class Balance testing on the PTR
	"[T]he number of people on the PTR is really pretty low." What a vapid, redundant statement. Low versus what? Sure, the sample size might be small enough that you don't catch all edge cases but it will definitely tell you if your base numbers are in line. This response really tells you that Bashiok has no idea what goes on between the PTR, Dev and QA at all. Or was told to give out a pat response. -----signature----- WoW and DAoC - Too many alts to count Charter Member - Altaholics Anonymous
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Rezzinu Posts: 3,920 Registered: Apr 17, '04 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 3,862 User ID: 915,409	Subject: Class Balance testing on the PTR
	They need to start crunching numbers then before they put a patch live. Not just say, "Oh, too much DPS! Cut (insert spell here) by 25%!" And then proceed to hotfix it. -----signature----- DAoC, CoH, WoW, AoC, Warhammer, LoTR. Rift, etc... ..Played one, played them all! . Keeping your knowledge a secret leads to arrogance... ...Sharing your knowledge with others leads to your demise.
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lilkit_wow Posts: ???? Registered: ???? Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 0 User ID: 0	Subject: Class Balance testing on the PTR
	Every single person I know that is on the PTR is there for one reason... to see new content, period. That way they can learn it all then rush it on live servers. I literally don't know one single person who goes to the PTR to do any kind of actual testing. It might as well just be a private server in my opinion for all the bugs and crap that make it through to live servers. -----signature-----
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Quazimortal Title: The One and Only Posts: 17,806 Registered: Sep 18, '04 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 17,157 User ID: 968,129	Subject: Class Balance testing on the PTR
	Vault_News posted: Class Balance testing on the PTR ...does not exist. -----signature----- â€œA painter paints his pictures on canvas. But musicians paint their pictures on silence. We provide the music, and you provide the silence.â€ ~Leopold Stokowski
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Sprawl-zero1eye- Title: IGN Vault Staff Reziztance iz Futile Posts: 53,263 Registered: Jun 28, '02 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 52,657 User ID: 692,733	Subject: Class Balance testing on the PTR
	PTRs aren't really there for class balancing. I can accept that generally they need a bunch of numbers to run through the cruncher to really balancing things to a T. The problem, imho, comes with trying to balancing things to a T, and to do it rather haphazardly. Changes should be considered, pondered, and tossed around internally before being deployed. I imagine, like most companies, they do this, but the string of hotfixes, and reverts for those hotfixes, suggests that they aren't doing it enough. -----signature----- Mirkwood MUD, OneEye IvoryFang, Lord of the VampireZ (Retired) AC Frostfell, Clan Z - Lvl 239 Grief Dagger (Retired) WoW Lightbringer Alliance, Z Guild - Lvl 85 Combat Rogue (Retired) Making iOS Apps these days at http://zsprawl.com/iOS
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Broken_Kayfabe Posts: 9,125 Registered: Feb 16, '02 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 9,010 User ID: 646,295	Subject: Class Balance testing on the PTR
	If they worried less about all the classes doing "equal damage" etc, and more attention paid to making each of them unique in their own way, they wouldn't have this problem. Chasing class balance is the worst thing devs can do. Past a certain point, all tightening the balance does is reduce the wiggle room between class performance, which is then parsed, which in turn magnifies the new differences, and turns back into "class A is stronger than class B" whines, and the process repeats. It is, in effect, a closed system. But then, the WoW B team is composed of australopithicines. -----signature----- Thanks, but it's been fun Five more minutes then I'm done! I've been saying that to myself since ...yesterday. - from "Has anybody seen my corpse". Man Everquest rocked back in the day...
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Dums Title: Moderator The mystery flavor Posts: 8,245 Registered: Oct 29, '02 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 7,576 User ID: 732,266	Subject: Class Balance testing on the PTR
	Broken_Kayfabe posted: But then, the WoW B team is composed of prehistoric apes. fixed -----signature----- hi
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Demorak Posts: 6,097 Registered: Jan 16, '09 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 5,924 User ID: 1,344,935	Subject: Class Balance testing on the PTR
	Dums posted: Broken_Kayfabe posted: But then, the WoW B team is composed of prehistoric apes. fixed -----signature----- "A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer."
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Cawlin Posts: 20,754 Registered: Feb 22, '05 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 20,667 User ID: 1,030,445	Subject: Class Balance testing on the PTR
	If we accept that certain classes will be favored for certain fights and certain fight mechanics, with every dog having their day so to speak - so that no raid just excludes a given class for a given raid instance due to ineffectiveness, then class balance for PvE balance should be laughably easy to perform. With the proper application of modeling mathematics and proper understanding of a) class abilities and rotations b) fight mechanics and gimmicks, there really should be no issue as you can accurately model the presence or absence of buffs and synergies in a development environment. The only real chockstone to that is putting in the effort. As for PvP balance (setting aside arenas which should be balanced on a separate arena-only server with class changes not spilling over into the non-arena servers) in BGs you have a bit more of a challenge because of crowd control and mobility and abilities not specifically related to healing or doing damage and whatnot, however, battleground PvP is also balanced by larger groups and thus minor imbalances are easier to live with. -----signature----- If ignorance were painful, half the posters here would be on morphine drips. Everyone playing WoW knows everything about playing two classes: 1) their own and 2) Hunters
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Quazimortal Title: The One and Only Posts: 17,806 Registered: Sep 18, '04 Extended Info (if available) Real Post Cnt: 17,157 User ID: 968,129	Subject: Class Balance testing on the PTR
	Dums posted: Broken_Kayfabe posted: But then, the WoW B team is composed of prehistoric apes. fixed Oh snap, I just caught a mod bashing game devs! Ban him! -----signature----- â€œA painter paints his pictures on canvas. But musicians paint their pictures on silence. We provide the music, and you provide the silence.â€ ~Leopold Stokowski
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