Alpha_Swift posted:

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Part of the problem is that the DPS queues are getting ridiculously long so there's not much of a chance to do heroics outside of guild. But this entire week has been populated by under geared toons played by people that have no idea about the dungeon, most can't even seem to find the instance door after the wipe.

Please, if you don't know fights, go practice in regulars. Or practice with your guildies who have the patience to explain the fight. Or better yet, do the community a favor and unsubscribe.

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Alpha_Swift posted:

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Part of the problem is that the DPS queues are getting ridiculously long so there's not much of a chance to do heroics outside of guild. But this entire week has been populated by under geared toons played by people that have no idea about the dungeon, most can't even seem to find the instance door after the wipe.

Please, if you don't know fights, go practice in regulars. Or practice with your guildies who have the patience to explain the fight. Or better yet, do the community a favor and unsubscribe.

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Cawlin posted:

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I suppose PuGs aren't dominating Cataclysm yet after all eh?

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The_Korrigan posted:

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Cawlin posted:

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I suppose PuGs aren't dominating Cataclysm yet after all eh?

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Yeah, I wonder where all those people who were claiming that are now...

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Alpha_Swift posted:

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Part of the problem is that the DPS queues are getting ridiculously long so there's not much of a chance to do heroics outside of guild. But this entire week has been populated by under geared toons played by people that have no idea about the dungeon, most can't even seem to find the instance door after the wipe.

Please, if you don't know fights, go practice in regulars. Or practice with your guildies who have the patience to explain the fight. Or better yet, do the community a favor and unsubscribe.

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Alpha_Swift posted:

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Part of the problem is that the DPS queues are getting ridiculously long so there's not much of a chance to do heroics outside of guild. But this entire week has been populated by under geared toons played by people that have no idea about the dungeon, most can't even seem to find the instance door after the wipe.

Please, if you don't know fights, go practice in regulars. Or practice with your guildies who have the patience to explain the fight. Or better yet, do the community a favor and unsubscribe.

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Alpha_Swift posted:

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Part of the problem is that the DPS queues are getting ridiculously long so there's not much of a chance to do heroics outside of guild. But this entire week has been populated by under geared toons played by people that have no idea about the dungeon, most can't even seem to find the instance door after the wipe.

Please, if you don't know fights, go practice in regulars. Or practice with your guildies who have the patience to explain the fight. Or better yet, do the community a favor and unsubscribe.

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PallyDog posted:

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I still think queueing for a heroics based purely on ilvl is dumb. At least at the requirment to have finished it on regular first.

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PallyDog posted:

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I still think queueing for a heroics based purely on ilvl is dumb. At least at the requirment to have finished it on regular first.

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The_Korrigan posted:

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Cawlin posted:

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I suppose PuGs aren't dominating Cataclysm yet after all eh?

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Yeah, I wonder where all those people who were claiming that are now...

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NukeMage posted:

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I do not see very many posts by people who run them with guilds complaining; In fact, I see most of the people who say they do guilded runs are saying that the instances are good/ok/acceptable.

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st0rmie posted:

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NukeMage posted:

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I do not see very many posts by people who run them with guilds complaining; In fact, I see most of the people who say they do guilded runs are saying that the instances are good/ok/acceptable.

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Realistically, the challenge for PUGs is to beat the heroic content; the challenge for guild groups is to get the Glory of the Cataclysm Hero achievement. I haven't finished that one yet since I don't spend as many hours gaming as a lot of my guildmates, but since three weeks ago a bunch of them have finished it, and the general consensus is that it was much better balanced than WotLK's Glory of the Hero achievement. I don't think that there are any achieves in there that require real class stacking (although some are a lot easier with two tanks or two healers), and certainly none that require you to far outgear the content - they're mostly just down to execution.

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Alpha_Swift posted:

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...toons played by people that have no idea about the dungeon, most can't even seem to find the instance door after the wipe.

Please, if you don't know fights, go practice in regulars. Or practice with your guildies who have the patience to explain the fight. Or better yet, do the community a favor and unsubscribe.

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PopGoesTheWeasel posted:

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I know I've queued random and sometimes you get a new dungeon you haven't done. I've asked what do I need to know and the "Experts" say nothing. So who's fault is the wipe.
As a mage, I try to CC one of the mobs only to have someone break it, who's fault is that?
Instead of marking the mobs, the tank runs in and aggros everything including the patrol he wasn't watching for
and of course, he didn't wait for the mana to be rechanged on the healer......who's fault is that?

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Voqar posted:

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I also wish they'd alter the itm level thing to not include pvp gear, it's rated too high to begin with and leads to some of the worst terribads in pugs.

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PallyDog posted:

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I still think queueing for a heroics based purely on ilvl is dumb. At least at the requirment to have finished it on regular first.

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Diskent posted:

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PallyDog posted:

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I still think queueing for a heroics based purely on ilvl is dumb. At least at the requirment to have finished it on regular first.

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There is a gear requirement.

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PallyDog posted:

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I still think queueing for a heroics based purely on ilvl is dumb. At least at the requirment to have finished it on regular first.

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The_Korrigan posted:

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I totally agree here. Along with the gear level requirement, you should have to finish the dungeon in normal mode before you can access heroic mode. Just like raids, actually.

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-Mithan- posted:

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What is DUMB is the idea that there are no locks.

TBC had locks, and they worked excellent, because they kept unqualified people out of instances until they were ready (most of the time). 

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Nakal posted:

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-Mithan- posted:

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What is DUMB is the idea that there are no locks.

TBC had locks, and they worked excellent, because they kept unqualified people out of instances until they were ready (most of the time). 

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The problem there though, was back in TBC, grinding rep was a real pain. You did not have tabbards to help in dungeons and it just became tedious. At least it wasn't bad when they reduced it to honored from revered, but it was still annoying that I may have grinded up HFP faction, and a guild mate grinded up Cenarion faction, and we cant go into the same dungeons because we worked on different faction.

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-Mithan- posted:

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What is DUMB is the idea that there are no locks.

TBC had locks, and they worked excellent, because they kept unqualified people out of instances until they were ready (most of the time). 

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Malachi256 posted:

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I still think they need to add some training quests. Quests to teach tanks some tanking basics, teach dps how to CC and not break it and how to interrupt, etc.

Completing the normal dungeons is good first step in that it teaches people where those dungeons are and at least the very basics of the dungeon, but it really won't help for a lot of issues that will come up in heroics...

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The_Korrigan posted:

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-Mithan- posted:

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What is DUMB is the idea that there are no locks.

TBC had locks, and they worked excellent, because they kept unqualified people out of instances until they were ready (most of the time). 

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What I personally would have done if I was in charge is to make people complete every normal mode of all the new dungeons before they even had access to any heroic modes. In addition to the gear check, of course.

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NukeMage posted:

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I have seen a LOT of posts/threads about how Heroics are hard on PUGs and should be easier/more forgiving.

I do not see very many posts by people who run them with guilds complaining; In fact, I see most of the people who say they do guilded runs are saying that the instances are good/ok/acceptable.

Things should be continually tweeked, and some of the really cheesy mechanics in some fights should be adjusted (A number of bosses are getting changes today). The Luck of the Draw buff is getting a major boost.

Hopefully this strikes a decent balance between difficulty and chance of success for PUGs.

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-Mithan- posted:

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What is DUMB is the idea that there are no locks.

TBC had locks, and they worked excellent, because they kept unqualified people out of instances until they were ready (most of the time).

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TinMan52 posted:

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NukeMage posted:

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I have seen a LOT of posts/threads about how Heroics are hard on PUGs and should be easier/more forgiving.

I do not see very many posts by people who run them with guilds complaining; In fact, I see most of the people who say they do guilded runs are saying that the instances are good/ok/acceptable.

Things should be continually tweeked, and some of the really cheesy mechanics in some fights should be adjusted (A number of bosses are getting changes today). The Luck of the Draw buff is getting a major boost.

Hopefully this strikes a decent balance between difficulty and chance of success for PUGs.

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I don't play as much anymore, but I still enjoy listening to a number of podcasts. They've all said that they enjoy the heroics and I trust those opinions.

As for PuGs, I once had my car towed at 1am in the morning. When I went to retrieve it from the tow lot at 2am, do you know what I found? The tow truck driver sitting on the floor, in the office, with a laptop, drunk and playing WoW. That's basically who I think of now when people talk about PuGs. Is that the person you want to be grouping with?

The game really does cater to the lowest common denominator and that's unfortunate, but the society we live in.

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Ugh_Lancelot posted:

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lol...predictable outcome was predictable.

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Xorcha posted:

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Ugh_Lancelot posted:

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lol...predictable outcome was predictable.

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Ugh. I have no taste whatsoever. Counting the days till I die.

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Malachi256 posted:

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I still think they need to add some training quests. Quests to teach tanks some tanking basics, teach dps how to CC and not break it and how to interrupt, etc.

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Sprawl-zero1eye- posted:

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Malachi256 posted:

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I still think they need to add some training quests. Quests to teach tanks some tanking basics, teach dps how to CC and not break it and how to interrupt, etc.

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Great idea!

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Sprawl-zero1eye- posted:

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Malachi256 posted:

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I still think they need to add some training quests. Quests to teach tanks some tanking basics, teach dps how to CC and not break it and how to interrupt, etc.

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Great idea!

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GutterSludge posted:

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If you want to really learn your character...PVP.

And I don't mean dueling in Goldshire. I mean go to enemy territory, outside a capital city, and start jumping flagged 85's as they are coming and going.

If you play on a PVE server, then you are hopeless to begin with, and will never truly be a master with your toon.

Sure, you can youtube some dungeon encounter, and stand in the right place, and claim to be "awesome"...but this does nothing to help you learn abilities, learn keyboard dexterity, develop key/finger memory, or think on the fly...

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GutterSludge posted:

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If you want to really learn your character...PVP.

And I don't mean dueling in Goldshire. I mean go to enemy territory, outside a capital city, and start jumping flagged 85's as they are coming and going.

If you play on a PVE server, then you are hopeless to begin with, and will never truly be a master with your toon.


Sure, you can youtube some dungeon encounter, and stand in the right place, and claim to be "awesome"...but this does nothing to help you learn abilities, learn keyboard dexterity, develop key/finger memory, or think on the fly...

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Diskent posted:

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GutterSludge posted:

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If you want to really learn your character...PVP.

And I don't mean dueling in Goldshire. I mean go to enemy territory, outside a capital city, and start jumping flagged 85's as they are coming and going.

If you play on a PVE server, then you are hopeless to begin with, and will never truly be a master with your toon.

Sure, you can youtube some dungeon encounter, and stand in the right place, and claim to be "awesome"...but this does nothing to help you learn abilities, learn keyboard dexterity, develop key/finger memory, or think on the fly...

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Dude, this statement is so adsurd, it defies... human existance.

You need to write your statement down, stick it in a book and forget about it. When you find it ten years later you will just laugh at yourself.

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RyanR100 posted:

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GutterSludge posted:

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If you want to really learn your character...PVP.

And I don't mean dueling in Goldshire. I mean go to enemy territory, outside a capital city, and start jumping flagged 85's as they are coming and going.

If you play on a PVE server, then you are hopeless to begin with, and will never truly be a master with your toon.


Sure, you can youtube some dungeon encounter, and stand in the right place, and claim to be "awesome"...but this does nothing to help you learn abilities, learn keyboard dexterity, develop key/finger memory, or think on the fly...

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You are a Moron. I can tell from this post you have barely, if at all, run any serious raid or even dungeon content.

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-Mithan- posted:

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If I wanted a lot of "challenge" in my MMO's, I would quit them and go play real life even more.

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-Mithan- posted:

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If I wanted a lot of "challenge" in my MMO's, I would quit them and go play real life even more.

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-Mithan- posted:

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If I wanted a lot of "challenge" in my MMO's, I would quit them and go play real life even more.

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Malachi256 posted:

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-Mithan- posted:

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If I wanted a lot of "challenge" in my MMO's, I would quit them and go play real life even more.

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I guess I've always just thought that there was already an enormous amount of faceroll content in WoW - you can level all sorts of classes on horde or alliance side, you can join BGs and just play badly and decide to not care about the team goals, you can do normal dungeons, grind daily quests, gather mats, play the AH, fiddle with tradeskills, etc.

Having a few activities that actually require you to apply yourself isn't an unreasonable request for a game. Before computers, for most of human history, every game (at least that I can think of) has been something to challenge 2 or more people in a pvp sort of environment. Chess, checkers, mancala, etc etc.

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siujoey posted:

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Well now we are just getting into the semantics of "challenge". I don't think Mithan is saying he wants to hit one button and everything dies.

But if you are playing WoW and need to feel some sort of personal validation from the game, it's become more than what it is- just an MMO. Look around, there are plenty of those types of players that post here. You will notice them for their use of words like "entitled", "scrubs", "welfare epics", and "earned" (when referring to... pixels!).

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Malachi256 posted:

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Having a few activities that actually require you to apply yourself isn't an unreasonable request for a game.

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GutterSludge posted:

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Don't confuse challenge with tedium.

There is a huge difference.

No one would care if the dungeons were super hard, if queues were instant.

Waiting an hour, in the hopes that no one drops, resulting in waiting another hour is what pisses people off.



Waiting is not difficult. It is not challenging. It is just tedious.

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GutterSludge posted:

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No one would care if the dungeons were super hard, if queues were instant.

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The_Korrigan posted:

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Malachi256 posted:

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Having a few activities that actually require you to apply yourself isn't an unreasonable request for a game.

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This.
And it has nothing to do with personal validation or whatever. The problem is not coming from neither the real "casual" players nor from the "hardcore" players, but from a specific type of players between them which is very loud and whines expecting everything is dumbed down to their level. I'd call that category "self entitlement driven casuals", or "scrubs", yes. They don't ruin (or attempt to ruin) only PvE, it's the type you also find on PvP forums whining and asking for nerfs as soon as they lost a duel against <insert random class name here except their own>. In the mind of those people, it's not possible that they suck at playing the game, if they lose in PvE or PvP, it can only be the developers fault, not theirs, even if a vast majority is doing exactly the same content just fine.

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Arcilite_I posted:

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LMFAO, not only do you spend 99% of your time here 'validating' yourself through your PvE accomplishments, the rest of your post after the bolded part does nothing BUT try to apply some form of self validation.

Get over yourself, the French haven't done anything worth validation since creating the chocolate eclair.

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Malachi256 posted:

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Arcilite_I posted:

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LMFAO, not only do you spend 99% of your time here 'validating' yourself through your PvE accomplishments, the rest of your post after the bolded part does nothing BUT try to apply some form of self validation.

Get over yourself, the French haven't done anything worth validation since creating the chocolate eclair.

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I am so sick of your personal attacks on Korrigan and other posters. You degrade this whole forum every time you hit the post button.

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Malachi256 posted:

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GutterSludge posted:

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No one would care if the dungeons were super hard, if queues were instant.

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The simple fact that ANYONE can play a tank class and therefore have instant queues seems to invalidate your argument. Clearly lots of people don't want to deal with the challenge of tanking heroics.

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GutterSludge posted:

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Malachi256 posted:

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GutterSludge posted:

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No one would care if the dungeons were super hard, if queues were instant.

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The simple fact that ANYONE can play a tank class and therefore have instant queues seems to invalidate your argument. Clearly lots of people don't want to deal with the challenge of tanking heroics.

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Malachi, I play 2 85's that tank.(one of which can heal) (Pally, DK)

I also play 4 85's that are DPS, and one that can heal or DPS.(Rogue, Mage, Lock, Hunter, Priest)

So, what you are saying, is that I should never play my other 5 chars that cannot tank..so that I get instant queues?


Mal, that is some of the most ignorant crap I have ever seen on these boards. You are better than that. Stop already.

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The_Korrigan posted:

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That's the difference between you and me, siujoey. I do what I can in what is only a video game, and am always happy to have a challenge I can't take because it means I have always something to look forward to.
I never killed Lich King heroic before Cataclysm hit the shelves (at 85 is was cake). Why? Me (and my group) obviously weren't good enough for that encounter, even though we tried hard. Did you see my whine a single time here, saying I'm a casual with a real life and I think it's unfair LK heroic is so hard I can't do it? Nope, you didn't. Because I accept there can be things in the game for people who play better than me. You can't seem to accept that, and insult anyone actually better than you (at the game, of course, we ONLY talk about the game as usual) and try to get everything dumbed down to stupid level.
Always having something harder than you can do (right now) = always something to look forward to.
The problem with the self entitlement generation is that they don't want anything hard - they want their meat ground and easy to chew just like at McDonald's.

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Ugh_Lancelot posted:

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Hold on, now. Are you really equating 5-man heroic difficulty and heroic 10/25 raids? Since when was anyone saying anything about heroic _raids_ being too hard? Did you just throw that in there to stir things up or are you being purposefully obtuse?

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Ugh_Lancelot posted:

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And lol @ you re: insulting people. I dare say that if we did stat counts on who used derogatory terms in posts, you'd win that one by a mile.

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The_Korrigan posted:

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That's the difference between you and me, siujoey. I need to feel superior at something, even if it is a game monkeys could master.

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siujoey posted:

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Fixed.

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The_Korrigan posted:

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Ugh_Lancelot posted:

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Hold on, now. Are you really equating 5-man heroic difficulty and heroic 10/25 raids? Since when was anyone saying anything about heroic _raids_ being too hard? Did you just throw that in there to stir things up or are you being purposefully obtuse?

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Let's ignore the point made and throw some more out of topic insults around.

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The_Korrigan posted:

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siujoey posted:

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Fixed.

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Another childish quote modification, of course totally ignoring the point made in the quoted post since it would be impossible to counter intelligently...
Ok, let's go for it.

So you pretend some people who play are actually worse than monkeys since they can't seem to play it correctly?
Nice way to defend your cause

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siujoey posted:

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No I am saying most people don't..... (gasp) take it as seriously as you do. There are people out there that can look themselves in the mirror without striving to reach their all important WoW potential.

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The_Korrigan posted:

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siujoey posted:

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No I am saying most people don't..... (gasp) take it as seriously as you do. There are people out there that can look themselves in the mirror without striving to reach their all important WoW potential.

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And some people still apparently didn't get it that on a video game forum, people will talk about playing that video game, achievements completed in that video game, techniques to play that video game, but it has nothing to do with anything else than the video game, and definitely not with any importance given to said video game.

When I want to talk about serious things, it's not here I come to post. Definitely not. And I don't talk about video games.

If anything, your own insistence to confuse a video game (and its fan forum) and "real life" is actually worrying. I make the difference just fine, maybe you should try too. Or are you posting your crap just to make some snide personal attack on my "real life", even though it's totally out of topic here, because you don't have any better answer to offer, which would be on topic? That's my guess. Be my guest then, you're only helping my point.

@Ugh_Lancelot: you once again ignore the point made (by cutting out the major part of my post and only quoting one sentence) to throw more cheap insults (and mocking my communication skills, which is HILARIOUS in this context of selective quoting), obviously because you don't know any better, so your post is simply ignored. Read this one though, you may learn something too, who knows.

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The_Korrigan posted:

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Jealousy often spawns that kind of reactions, even about something as trivial as a video game.
Yes, I've done more things in this specific game in PvE than most of you, that's a fact. Yes I don't whine about heroics because I have the basic skills required to play the PvE content of this game, not stand in fire, know when to move, pay attention, something some of you apparently don't have.
No need to be bitter about it though, it's only a game...

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