Lynea
Title: Dances with Trolls
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Today's victim is Eshvanu (whom VN says doesn't exist today.) He's a super nice guy who lives in Colorado, I believe. We both suffer from serious allergy problems (not that anyone cares, but it's something I remember about him!! LOL) and I believe he's actually older than me (which is rare in these parts). Tell us more, Esh!!
Previous Focus On victims include:
Rikostan
Caledric
Trunks-san_MT
MoFoEskimo
.Kid.
pkhere
Oedipus_Zarathustra
ghostparasyte
hart_thorin
-Abednego-
Akarat
Dark_EternalFF
GoatAvatar
Darshawn
DarkNem
Adam_First
Prydeheart
Silverwuf
Auron316
MForce2k
Bizzy_D_1
Storm_Seeker
UNCLEofBELT
Nailer2357
For a look at the old Focus On threads, check out the Archives. If you want to be "focused on" but haven't signed up previously, please PM me.
-----signature-----
http://www.thebreastcancersite.com/ "It's crazy that the board newbies think I am a Liberal and B_T is a neo-con." - Gustaive_MT "God left a very clear instruction to Adam. The ****head couldn't even follow that." - -Abednego-
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-Foxy-
Title: Moderator
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oo good one to look foreward to
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Long suffering vassal to Xarkath, U.P. - Forever and ever
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Gaevren
Title: Wat do?
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do tell, do tell!
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UpAngel180
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tag. He seems like a pretty cool guy. I think when it comes right down to it, he and I have a lot in common. Do tell.....
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It's not that I'm an elitist, its that I truly am better than you.
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zellokiia
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tag
-----signature-----
~Hoochie~ Bumper Sticker: If you are riding my arse, you'd better be pulling my hair http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v364/zellokiia/jettired3.jpg Caledric:You can please all the ppl some of the time,some ppl all of the time,but you can never please zell
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Sarena_WE
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Very interesting character for sure!
Tag
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 Chief Operations Officer (COO) Bored & Useless Spam Co. Sarena is the Yin to BTs yanger - Aon_mixed Friends don't let friends ACF-Makarios http://www.indiefl.com/acf/profile/38
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-Foxy-
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Sarena_WE posted:
Very interesting character for sure!
Tag
we can take that several ways 
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Storm_Seeker
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I know that his views on kids was once "mis-understood" ...
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_Alexandra_
Title: Lady of the Spatula
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This should be good. I like this person 
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Darshawn
Title: Proudly, Mrs. Arch Magi
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I cant wait to read this.
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"That's pretty amazing, winning the Nobel Peace Prize. Ironically, his biggest accomplishment as president so far ... winning the Nobel Peace Prize." ~~ Jay Leno
ACF......like playing Twister with amputees.
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Evolrider
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Bump....Esh is one of my favorite posters.
-----signature-----
Kigroll 60 Dwarf Warrior, KiJynn 60 NE Hunter, Kidruid 80 Druid
Kiwarrior 80 Orc Warrior, Kimistress 80 Undead Mage
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wolfzbane
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Esh is a good guy
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coupas
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tag
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jls_obi: YOU ARE THE ONE WHO CLOWNS THE ASS LUKE DUKE.
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Notanoob
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He's the ACF grampa!
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Rikostan
Title: Hirsute Haranguer
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he seems like a pretty serious person, but an overall good guy.
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Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be Happy- Ben Franklin http://rikostan.com Atheism is a non-prophet organization. http://www.last.fm/user/rikostan/ facebook = Riko Stan
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Trunks-san_MT
Title: Don't worry, I'm not real.
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Esh is a very good guy.
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Super_Sadist
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Esh is great.
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FineYoungCannibals
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without a doubt one of the smartest people on this board
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 FYC
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tillsb
Title: me < -Mythik-
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FineYoungCannibals posted:
without a doubt one of the smartest people on this board
Not a high standard but I agree
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Velvet_Ice
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Looking forward to this one!
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Love in your heart wasnt meant there to stay Love isnt love until you give it away  - 9-11- Always Remember- By the way, Im a girl. 
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-Abednego-
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-----signature-----
Voted #1 Dad by household 6yo's
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Ex-remlocke
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tag
-----signature-----
this.
what the **** is a Barack?! - DMX
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Eshvanu
Title: Using Corbomite successfully since 1987!
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Oh my! Been a bit preoccupied this morning, just noticed this. I'll get started on a bit of background.
Thanks for the encouragement.
Notanoob, get off my lawn! 
-----signature-----
I reserve the right to be wrong at any time When ya dance with God, God doesn't change. God changes you. There is no free lunch.
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Darshawn
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He seems to be on everyone's lawn today.
-----signature-----
"That's pretty amazing, winning the Nobel Peace Prize. Ironically, his biggest accomplishment as president so far ... winning the Nobel Peace Prize." ~~ Jay Leno
ACF......like playing Twister with amputees.
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Kah_HG
Title: Sorta like a dream, no... better.
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Time for rock, and/or, roll.
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Hakuna Matata, what a wonderful phrase
Lions mauling humans, ain't no passing craze!
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Elaok
Title: I has title now!
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Esh ... what exactly is Corbomite Maneuver ?
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Evolrider
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"Esh ... what exactly is Corbomite Maneuver ?"
If you have to ask...you are too young to know 
/geek on
The Corbomite Maneuver is the name of an episode of the original Star Trek series...that also happens to have the alien in it that Esh uses for his icon
/geek off 
-----signature-----
Kigroll 60 Dwarf Warrior, KiJynn 60 NE Hunter, Kidruid 80 Druid
Kiwarrior 80 Orc Warrior, Kimistress 80 Undead Mage
Kirog 70 Orc Hunter, Kicow 80 Tauren Shaman
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.Kid.
Title: Disgustipated
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He really is old?! 
I like Esh. Can't wait to read his brief bio.
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Eshvanu
Title: Using Corbomite successfully since 1987!
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I am old. Over 50 years of age, and that's enough on that subject. So, my story might be a bit longer than other people's on these boards. Hoping this covers most of it. Feel free to ask questions on any aspect. I have nothing to hide any more. I'm not that important.
I was born into a dysfunctional Catholic family, and had the the dubious double distinction of being abused by siblings and mostly neglected by parents. Couple that with the hypocrisy of Catholic dogma at the time, and my childhood was a most confusing and mentally damaging time in my life. I was fortunate that I didn't get abused by the Catholic priesthood. I suspect my oldest brother, who was responsible for the majority of the abuse I suffered from my siblings, didn't fair so well and passed on what he learned to me. Oh joy.
So, emotionally distant mother who was prone to rages (ever been whipped with a wire coat hanger?), mostly non-existant father who later gambled away most of the family's money, abusives siblings, much neglect at home that led to nutrition issues in teen years, and the Roman Catholic Church's dogma to reinforce that suffering was required for my "original sin". Any wonder I have emotional issues that plague me even today? Funny, though, since I gave up on organized religion I've yet to come across any "sin" that's truly "original".
However, the early years taught me that stealing, lieing, cheating, hiding, hypocrisy, and other animal behaviors were necessary survival skills. I learned them as well as anyone with an IQ over 150 could. I learned them so well I even learned to hide from, and lie to, myself. Caused some personality splitting that still occurs to this day. Interesting to me that a single identity can have multiple personalities, though. I had thought, until recently, that each personality had a different identity. At least having a single identity makes Integration much simpler, for myself and my therapist.
Lived in various places in California until I was 20, during the breakup and getting back together my parents went through. Then I ran away from home, again. I ran that last time in part so I wouldn't do to my younger brother and sister what had been done to me. Sounds funny to run away from home at 20, but that's quite honestly what I did.
I had been a competitive roller skater since I was 4 1/2, and I had a chance to skate for a competitive club in Oregon. Moved to Oregon, worked a couple of jobs there, skated for a local club for a while, and was introduced to drugs when someone dropped a joint on my customer window, as a "tip". Took off heavily into abusing drugs, and within a year's time was dealing, living with dealers and producers, and finding myself in a most interesting, if often confusing, lifestyle. Spent most of the next 20+ years as an associate of organized crime, with one group or another. Never made the big time, nor did I participate in any of the more destructive aspects or events. Got by, lived and learned, worked at real jobs sometimes. Moved from group to group, and lived at various times with bikers, hippies, junkies, major thieves (e.g. - bank robbers, con artistes), and other types of groups. At one point, even sold circus tickets via phone for several of the "police associations" in the Pacific NW. I was connected, but always on the periphery and seldom with involvement in major activities. Through it all I stayed intoxicated as much as possible.
In 1984, between groups and living in someone's back yard, I got a job sweeping floors at a local college. Interesting employment for someone who had the highest SAT scores in his graduating high school class. Funyy thing, though, I put a good bit of physical effort, thoughtful analysis, and organization into the work. They'd never seen anyone like me before, and they liked me. Also, while I was there working nights, the theft losses went down dramatically. Seems having someone in the kitchen and storage areas all night caused people to stop coming around for a midnight snack. That was a turning point in my life, although I didn't realize it at the time. It was the time I decided that thieves were an undesireable part of our society, and when I made the decision to stop being such a person. Took me a few years to realize that as a conscious decision. It was, quite frankly, my first step toward becoming an adult human being.
After a year of working nights for the foodservice contractor, I decided there had to be more for me to do in this world than mopping floors and swabbing toilets. So I headed back to college, and got into a vocational-technical program to learn computer operations and networking for mainframe computers and data centers. Did quite well in the program (hey, it ain't rocket science), and during my second year was fortunate to participate in an internship program that exposed me to a couple of Fortune 500 companies. Worked for one as an intern, and was hired by another upon graduation from the 2-year college program.
Also while at college that time, I became involved in Shorin Ryu (Shobayashi Ryu) Karate. I have been studying, off and on around injuries, since then. I hold a Brown Belt (7th Kyu), and hope this year to complete requirements and earn a Black Belt. If I'm able to do that, I will look at possibly teaching classes, to share what I have learned and keep the knowledge alive for us.
Sadly for me and many other people, one lesson I didn't learn while in college during the 80's was that I may not drink alcohol or abuse other drugs. Even though I'd done so well not drinking or using while in college. Shortly after graduation, I went back into the drug world, through people I already knew. I kept my computer jobs, as there were a lot of people who had money to spend in the computer rooms, and I had access to supply. I most always used more than I dealt, though, and spent a lot of my own money staying intoxicated. Eventually, I lost the job and moved on. That was a pattern I repeated for years.
In 1995, while working in one of several government positions I'd held over the years, I dug a deep enough hole that I hit my "bottom". For those who might find themselves in a similar position some day, "the bottom" isn't a single place for everyone. Rather, "the bottom" is the place where the individual stops digging the hole deeper. I stopped digging the hole deeper that year. Cost me another decent job, a car that I'd wrecked while intoxicated, and most all the people with whom I'd begun relationships. Again.
To this day, I don't remember how many decent people I've hurt, angered, or otherwise chased away from having contact with me. I do know I dropped at least 8 decent, well-paying jobs for good companies, 5 pretty good cars (including a couple of collectibles), who knows how much money (easily over $250,000), and many years of life, into the endless depths of drug abuse. All in an attempt to get away from the primary problem, which is me the way I was. In 1995, I stopped trying to run away from me, and stopped trying to kill myself in a slow, cowardly manner while abusing drugs (including alcohol).
In 1996, after I'd stopped drinking and abusing drugs, everything was wonderful. Yeah... Well, except for being evicted. Oh, and filing bankruptcy. ..and the brief relapses as I struggled with staying sober were kinda nasty, too. Then there were all the people who were afraid I'd testify against them, and they're efforts to knock me down. Hmm... I guess 1996 wasn't such a great time after all. Best I can say is I survived through the bad times. Because of my talents and abilities, I was able to struggle through at a few contract jobs for a couple of years. I've stayed completely clean and sober since September of 1997. Haven't had a drink yet today, either.
I have been working in the Information Systems field since 1994, in a wide range of positions and environments. Last job I had started in 1999, with a Fortune 100 insurance company, as a technical support analyst. I was transfered from Portland, Oregon, to Denver, Colorado, in 2005. The relocation brought home to me just how badly the company treated me, and my efforts here in Denver to strengthen our team's abilities to respond to customer needs were ignored. Worse, I worked myself into a real breakdown, and into a Major Clinical Depression. I quit working for the company in November last year, and am taking a year off to regain my health and redifine my priorities.
The breakdown was a good thing, in some respects. I found a doctor that understood what was happening, and we hit the right combination of meds for me on the first try. I "discovered" a pattern of depression in my life, and found a therapist who has helped me learn to cope with those times without using meds. I truly started to "grow up" emotionally, which can be much different from chronologic aging or growing in a work-related field.
Hmm... Left out a lot of stuff, I see. Such as climbing rocks and mountains, being in the Red Zone about 5 miles upwind of Mt. St. Helens when it blew on May 18, 1980, watching the sun set on the Pacific ocean, or getting up early to watch the dolphins and sea lions hunting in the surf, wading through 4 feet of snow this past winter in Denver. I left out most mentions of the people I've loved and lost, and the great, patient, honorable people who let me stay in touch even through the worst of my life.
Ah! A word on how I got here. In 2000 I started chatting with one of the Unix admins at work. Her AC name is Mistress. Mistress, along with my first patron Ryu Zurui, convinced me to try AC. I started playing Summer of '01, on FF. Posted mostly on the FF board for several years, and occasionally on General board. When I stopped playing for a while in 2005, I started posting a bit on ACF because FF was kinda boring when not playing on the server. Got more and more involved in posting here, especially after the move from Portland to Denver.
Nowadays, as I said above, I'm off work and taking the time I need to get my health back, and improve on my sanity. That latter takes a lot of work, and I've still a long way to go before I reach my goals. I've been riding a bicycle quite a bit, and am slowly making that my main commuter vehicle. I'm planning a return to college in September, although I honestly don't know what program I'll focus on when I do. I have enough money from some retirement accounts to live for a couple of years without working. As part of getting my health back, I've budgeted some of that money to allow me to finish restoration work on my mouth, and have some work done to restore my eyes to 20/20 vision. When I honestly look at my life, I'm a rather boring person with few interests atm. I'm hoping to expand as my health improves, and use the lessons I've learned in life to live better within my chosen community, and perhaps help other people do the same. Some of those lessons I've learned came from people on ACF. Thank you. *bow*
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I reserve the right to be wrong at any time When ya dance with God, God doesn't change. God changes you. There is no free lunch.
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FineYoungCannibals
Title: Top of the food chain
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holy wall of text i'll read this later
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FYC
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Lynea
Title: Dances with Trolls
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Great read, Esh. Thanks for sharing.
-----signature-----
http://www.thebreastcancersite.com/ "It's crazy that the board newbies think I am a Liberal and B_T is a neo-con." - Gustaive_MT "God left a very clear instruction to Adam. The ****head couldn't even follow that." - -Abednego-
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KahunaLaguna
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Nicely written.
-----signature-----
My mind is firmly planted in the gutter.... next to the rest of the ACF community.
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Kah_HG
Title: Sorta like a dream, no... better.
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Wow, quite the story, Esh. Thanks for sharing.
-----signature-----
Hakuna Matata, what a wonderful phrase
Lions mauling humans, ain't no passing craze!
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Darshawn
Title: Proudly, Mrs. Arch Magi
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Thank you for sharing with us. 
You are an amazing man.
-----signature-----
"That's pretty amazing, winning the Nobel Peace Prize. Ironically, his biggest accomplishment as president so far ... winning the Nobel Peace Prize." ~~ Jay Leno
ACF......like playing Twister with amputees.
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Myn_Darklighter
Title: lector caveo sarcasm coerceo
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FineYoungCannibals posted:
holy wall of text i'll read this later
Nahh, it uses paragraphs and punctuation, and....
Good read Eshvanu, quite the life you have had.
Have you EVER considered writing a book about it? I can't say it would likely be a NY Times best seller (but who knows), but it certainly might be an eye opener to some to re-examine their lives.
-----signature-----
"Mr. Clean? Seriously!?!?! Did she think his Magic Eraser would restore her virginity, too?" -- Lynea
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Sarena_WE
Title: Glambert Extraordinaire
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Wow, I figured you had a story but...damn Esh.
Nice to "meet" you
-----signature-----
Chief Operations Officer (COO) Bored & Useless Spam Co. Sarena is the Yin to BTs yanger - Aon_mixed Friends don't let friends ACF-Makarios http://www.indiefl.com/acf/profile/38
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-Foxy-
Title: Moderator
Ãœber Brat
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nice getting to know more about you esh
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.Kid.
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That was a pretty damn long read but very interesting story though. I've seen a few top-notch students take a dive downhill before and I'm sorry that it happened to you Esh.
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Rain1Dog
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I have mad respect for you. I share some of your adventures in ways. Great read.
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UpAngel180
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Wow...we don't have nearly as much in common as I thought! Good read though! It looks like your life's been a hell of a struggle. Good to see that you are taking some time to stop and sort things out before jumping back into the cycle.
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Hinovae
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well that's a weird story.. but interesting
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A maaagical place with maaagical charms.
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Reapist
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Any kids?
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pkhere: Jebus sometimes you make my arse tired.
Referring to illegal aliens as 'immigrants' is the same as referring to shoplifters as 'shoppers' - Dorvinion
I'd feel bad for Satriani but he got himself into it. - allmightybob_MLF
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Velvet_Ice
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Great read. Nice to meet you Esh!
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tillsb
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I will have to read that later when I have time as it is I skimmed the first couple paragraphs and looks to be an interesting read. Thanks Esh you are twice as old as me
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Eshvanu
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Dar
Myn - I've thought about writing a book. Might be possible now, without repurscussions to myself or other people. It's in the back of my mind for a while yet. I do share my story and experience with other people from time-to-time. I am part of an old, strong support network for people such as myself, and keep in regular contact. I have some strength and hope to offer people who struggle and work to break free from similar problems.
Reapist - I have a son somewhere, I believe. I've neither seen nor had any contact with him. He's in his 20's now. He is, I believe, a most fortunate man for not having had me in his life, at least thus far. Until these last few years, I doubt I'd have been a good influence in a young person's life.
Do I have other children in the world? Possibly. I've not been told of any others. *shrug*
While I think I could manage to raise children successfully now, with an good partner for support, that ship has sailed. I believe it's far too late for me to do so. Having and raising a family is something I'll not experience in this life. I've accepted that consequence of the damage done to me when I was a child, and my own poor choices in lifestyle and direction since then.
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Ptilk
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Great read.
Scary thing is...we have a lot in common.
Best job I ever had was washing dishes and I got there by hitting what I thought at the time was "bottom". Really gave me time to figure out what the hell I was doing to myself, and even some clues as to why I was doing it.
Good luck on going back to school. It's something I really need to do as well.
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Eshvanu
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Elaok posted:
Esh ... what exactly is Corbomite Maneuver ?
Just noticed this. I'm going to let you study up on that. Evolrider gives you all the information you need. There are a lot of places you can find that episode of the original Star Trek series.
If you watch that episode, you'll understand a bit better why Balok is my icon, too.
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Reapist
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I like you and all, but I think you still have a problem with laying blame. I'm guessing you know that though. Still, I think it's worth pointing out just in case to help you grow. You can do it, I'm sure of that.
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pkhere: Jebus sometimes you make my arse tired.
Referring to illegal aliens as 'immigrants' is the same as referring to shoplifters as 'shoppers' - Dorvinion
I'd feel bad for Satriani but he got himself into it. - allmightybob_MLF
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Eshvanu
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Reapist, I'm focusing more these days on looking at what happened, accepting it, and moving on. Blame is something I'm trying to leave behind, by forgiving others and myself for what happened. As I said, I've got a long way to go on that path, or so it seems to me.
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FalkanG
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Holy crap. That's quite a story.
Very inspiring as well. You've been through a lot and survived, and I'm glad to see you've been doing better these past years.
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Atlante
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Thank you for sharing your story so honestly, Esh. I wish you all of the best in getting your life sorted out.
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LingMei
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"being in the Red Zone about 5 miles upwind of Mt. St. Helens when it blew on May 18, 1980,"
Wow, so was I! I was downwind, but man, the blast shook the paintings off the walls, broke dishes, windows, you name it, and the ash downpour over the next few days was NOT fun to clean up! That summer I had a job picking strawberries, they were covered with ash, and it rained nearly the entire summer. Wet, soggy, ash covered strawberries all day long... to this day I can't eat them. lol. The next St. Helens blast I also witnessed, from the Tacoma Club (which is at top of one of the highest buildings in Tacoma). That was a wild sight to see.
I have a lot of other things way in common with Eshy, and he's always been someone I've admired and respected on these boards. In a nutshell: Eshy rocks. (Plus, he lives in my home, which some day I'll get back to, so I envy him, too!)
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Eshvanu
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Thanks Ling
We were at the Greatful Dead concert during the second eruption, the one that hit Portland with a bit of ash fall. I still remember Bobby coming up to the mic, saying something like, "Well, St. Helens just erupted", and the band swinging into, of course, Fire on the Mountain.
Good memories. There are a lot of those I have, too, in case someone thinks my story was all bad all the time. It wasn't.
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Ex-remlocke
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Good read.
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what the **** is a Barack?! - DMX
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Dark_EternalFF
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*blinks*
Holy ****. It's always the quiet ones who have the longest stories to share...
Glad to know you.
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Ministry-
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Tag to read later. Esh is one of my favorite posters
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Eshvanu
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Hiya Min, long time
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aon_mixed
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did you purposely omit your service time during WW2?
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Rudypu_Candyass
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Pretty Cool Esh. I'm an old man also not as old as you but still old. Maybe we share the same meds LOl. Great story buddy
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n00berness
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 The path to a better future is always right in front of you...congrats on taking the difficult first steps!
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Redyk
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Interesting read.
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murron2
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Life is most definitely about the journey Thank you for sharing! Truly...
~Murron~
The difference between stumbling blocks and stepping stones...is how you use them!
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it means to be in the midst
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Evolrider
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for my fellow Trekkie
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gpputnam
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Well met Esh.
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Currently playing: [insert random game][Xbox 360] Social Engineering Expert... because you can't patch human stupidity http://live.xbox.com/member/Unhappy%20Funball “Buy land, they're not making it anymore†Mark Twain
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Yb-Divinity
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Great read!
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~YB~ ~~~~~~~~~~ "The world malfunctions in mysterious ways". - LlarioLostdoggie "Being offended isn't a viable reason for us to take action on something." -Mithan http://yb-divinity.myminicity.com/ <-- Click and help built my city
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vn_anon63xxx
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I really don't understand ACF sometimes. I know I am gonna come off as a prick, but at least I'm honest.
A guy spends 30 years doing drugs and commiting crimes. He then gets his act together JUST enough to con companies to give him a second chance at life only to **** them over and betray their trust and loyalty. Over and over again.
Apparently, he's so damn tired from all his illegal activity and backstabbing that he needs to take a break from it all and take an extended vacation.
And, ACF applauds him?
Here is my advice:
Grow a ****ing pair and start trying to repay the HUGE debt you owe to society. Stop whining and blaming everyone else for being a F up. Take on two full time jobs AND volunteer cleaning up the same neighborhoods you helped screw up in the first place.
You don't deserve the luxury of forgiveness until you pay off the debt you owe.
Pouring your heart out is NOT payment.
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MoFoEskimo
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vn_anon63xxx posted:
I really don't understand ACF sometimes. I know I am gonna come off as a prick, but at least I'm honest.
A guy spends 30 years doing drugs and commiting crimes. He then gets his act together JUST enough to con companies to give him a second chance at life only to **** them over and betray their trust and loyalty. Over and over again.
Apparently, he's so damn tired from all his illegal activity and backstabbing that he needs to take a break from it all and take an extended vacation.
And, ACF applauds him?
Here is my advice:
Grow a ****ing pair and start trying to repay the HUGE debt you owe to society. Stop whining and blaming everyone else for being a F up. Take on two full time jobs AND volunteer cleaning up the same neighborhoods you helped screw up in the first place.
You don't deserve the luxury of forgiveness until you pay off the debt you owe.
Pouring your heart out is NOT payment.
Bahahahahaha, jesus christ. Get over yourself Anon. hahahahha, good god.
Grow a ****ing pair and live your life without worrying about others, you'll only hold yourself back if you keep comparing yourself and complaining that no one is good enough.
Seems like he has dealt with his own pain in a roundabout way, but in a way nonetheless. Your turn? Focus on: Anon's rage!
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vn_anon63xxx
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I wonder how much more we have all paid in insurance premiums and taxes to cover the losses incurred during his 30 years of partying and commiting crimes.
I wonder how much people lost in property value so he and his buddies could run amok in the streets. Gangstas, druggies and thieves do not increase property values.
You don't live a life like that without owing EVERYBODY in society a huge debt. Instead of at least attempting to pay that debt, he takes some time off. To get his head together?
I guess he's stressed.
The guy is maybe 15 years away from Social Security and he's taking a breather?
From WHAT? Being a pussy and a criminal?
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MoFoEskimo
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Eshvanu
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lol, Anon, there's much more to my story than what's in this thread. Although you didn't phrase yoru post as a question, I'll answer it as if you did.
Since 1982, I've earned my wages at every job I've worked. That's when I stopped stealing anything from anyone and started working to carry my own weight as best I could. That's when I began stopping theft where I worked, and even turning in thieves. Doing so got me hated by a lot of people, yet I continue to live my views. I've helped companies I worked for uncover and deal with corruption and theft on more than one occasion. I've done the same for communities I've lived in, even at the risk of my personal safety and security.
I've found ways to pay back money, and repair much of the damage I did before I went straight. I continue to do so in a variety of ways. I've influenced the lives of quite a few people in the past 10 years, by living as I believe.
I don't think of myself as having "repaid society", as you put it, simply because I don't believe anyone can do so. My current dues are paid. Imo, that's the best anyone can do while living in a community.
I'm now taking time for myself after spending several years putting in more than I got back. I saved money to do so by living below my means, and managing well with the little I chose to spend. I earned this time, and the money to support myself, by my own efforts, legally, and paying all appropriate taxes on my income.
I find your phrase "luxury of forgiveness" quite interesting. To me, forgiveness isn't a luxury, it's a necessity. Forgiving myself so I can live with myself, and learn from my mistakes so I don't repeat them. Forgiving others so I can move forward without resentment or anger. Am I perfect at doing such things? No, I'm human and inherently imperfect. Still, I'm willing to grow, and allow myself time and space to reorganize my life and regain my health and sanity. I'll be much more able to contribute to my community once I'm healthy again.
I no longer believe the insanity of my childhood education in the Catholic Church, so I see no need to suffer unnecessarily, or push myself in some unending quest to get "forgiveness" from the very people who hurt me in the beginning. I'll keep moving forward, making contributions to our community in my own way, and as I'm able to do so. That you or anyone else isn't aware of the details of what I do matters not to me. I know, as do those who work with me yet remain anonymous to most other people, that my efforts are worthwhile and appreciated.
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MoFoEskimo
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Eshvanu posted:
I find your phrase "luxury of forgiveness" quite interesting. To me, forgiveness isn't a luxury, it's a necessity. Forgiving myself so I can live with myself, and learn from my mistakes so I don't repeat them. Forgiving others so I can move forward without resentment or anger. Am I perfect at doing such things? No, I'm human and inherently imperfect. Still, I'm willing to grow, and allow myself time and space to reorganize my life and regain my health and sanity. I'll be much more able to contribute to my community once I'm healthy again.
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vn_anon63xxx
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The last thing I will say on this matter is this:
MoFo,
You don't know **** about this situation. You are still a spoiled drug kid from SoCal. You still think "it's all good".
Eshvanu talks about hitting "rock bottom" without even understanding what that is. "Rock bottom" is NOT having fortune 500 companies giving you a second chance. Or, the government (taxpayers) subsidizing a retraining program.
Rock bottom is coming to the realization that no matter how hard you work and how much you pay in taxes you will never, ever repay society for your own screw-ups. There are not enough apologies to friends, family and co-workers to make up for the damage that has been done.
It doesn't matter how much OT you pull or how many times you "do the impossible", you will never pay back the debt.
You can pick up trash on your way back from a hike. You can wash some cars for the local high school fund-raiser. You can wake up exhausted and sore at 3am in the morning to go off and do another day.
But, you will never pay back what you took.
You owe so many "chips" that you will never be able to pay them off.
But, you can try. No matter how futile it is, as long as you are sincere and lead a clean life, at least *some* of the debts are erased. You won't get to them all. But, at least you try.
Sitting at home eating anti-depressants will not erase any of the guilt-ridden debts owed. Working hard will.
But, WTF do I know.....
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MoFoEskimo
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vn_anon63xxx posted:
It doesn't matter how much OT you pull or how many times you "do the impossible", you will never pay back the debt.
You can pick up trash on your way back from a hike. You can wash some cars for the local high school fund-raiser. You can wake up exhausted and sore at 3am in the morning to go off and do another day.
But, you will never pay back what you took.
You owe so many "chips" that you will never be able to pay them off.
vn_anon63xxx posted:
Sitting at home eating anti-depressants will not erase any of the guilt-ridden debts owed. Working hard will.
What do you know?
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Brandun
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Anon, you are one of my favorites, and you know it
but you do have a high horse sometimes 
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I don't feel I owe chips to anyone. I feel I was given "so many chips" that I have a hard time figuring out new ways to give them away and make myself feel better about being given such a gift. But I don't feel bad for accepting the gift of life, if I did that, what would be the point of said gift?
Oh, I know, attempt to pay to life, for the happiness it has given me.
and of course we all know paying back is accounted for in the amount blood sweat and tears that drops out of you. If I go sit in the desert cutting myself & crying all day for 1 year, would that be enough to last my whole life? Or do I have to say a series of hominid grunts to a specific person? Perhaps if I wiggled my forearm like so? Maybe if I throw this spoon at the right moment....
Ugh, futile. Hmmm... Laugh about the futility of man and move on, or cry about futility and throw a temper tantrum over my very existence?
hmmm, which do I prefer? Oh this is a tough one.
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combat_mage_sc
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I allways pictured rock bottom as a dark alley with a needle in your arm, a dick in your mouth with your front pockets pulled inside-out.
Thats what rock bottom looks like in my minds eye. 
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combat_mage_sc posted:
I allways pictured rock bottom as a dark alley with a needle in your arm, a dick in your mouth with your front pockets pulled inside-out.
Thats what rock bottom looks like in my minds eye.
Plus a bird flying overhead poops on you the instant you think to yourself "is this rock bottom?"
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Eshvanu
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vn_anon63xxx posted:
The last thing I will say on this matter is this:
MoFo,
You don't know **** about this situation. You are still a spoiled drug kid from SoCal. You still think "it's all good".
Eshvanu talks about hitting "rock bottom" without even understanding what that is. "Rock bottom" is NOT having fortune 500 companies giving you a second chance. Or, the government (taxpayers) subsidizing a retraining program.
Rock bottom is coming to the realization that no matter how hard you work and how much you pay in taxes you will never, ever repay society for your own screw-ups. There are not enough apologies to friends, family and co-workers to make up for the damage that has been done.
It doesn't matter how much OT you pull or how many times you "do the impossible", you will never pay back the debt.
You can pick up trash on your way back from a hike. You can wash some cars for the local high school fund-raiser. You can wake up exhausted and sore at 3am in the morning to go off and do another day.
But, you will never pay back what you took.
You owe so many "chips" that you will never be able to pay them off.
But, you can try. No matter how futile it is, as long as you are sincere and lead a clean life, at least *some* of the debts are erased. You won't get to them all. But, at least you try.
Sitting at home eating anti-depressants will not erase any of the guilt-ridden debts owed. Working hard will.
But, WTF do I know.....
My post doesn't say anything about hitting "rock bottom". I even added that, imo, everyone's "bottom" is different. Mine came when I stopped digging "the hole" deeper, and took steps to stop drinking and abusing drugs. I haven't taken any government retraining programs. I earned my way back into the corporate world taking temporary and contract jobs to prove I could be trusted, could get the work done, and could keep myself sober while doing so. I did that more than once to rebuild my life. Each time, I worked initially for less than what I was making before I fell apart, and each time earned my way back to a decent level of pay. At my last job, I contributed several ideas that led to corporate savings in the millions. Some of those were recurring savings, on a yearly basis.
You don't know much if you think I'm still "sitting at home and eating anti-depressents". I stated in my initial post about my life that I'm no longer taking meds, and have learned techniques from my therapist to get through such times without having, so far, to take meds again. While not everyone who experiences Clinical Depression is able to do so, I seem to be fortunate in that respect. I might be able to go through the remainder of my life without taking anti-depressants again. I don't know that, but I certainly hope so.
May I ask, why do you seem so angry about what I've posted? How do you know what "chips" I might owe, and what I have repaid and/or repaired by my honest efforts over the past 10 years? Why do you feel I must weigh myself down to "erase any of the guilt-ridden debts owed". Indeed, why do you think I have to be overwhelmed with guilt, apparently to the point I sacrifice everything and possibly even die to meet your idea of what's right? Seems to me that's an insane way to live, and the wrong way to make positive contributions to our community.
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I guess I lied, because I'm writing another reply.
I did the same crap the OP did. For two years.
I didn't say "only for two years" for a reason. One week is too much. One day is too much.
I was a total f-up from 1983-1985. Not quite as bad as Eshvanu, but close enough. Close enough so I actually "get it".
It is now 2007 and I have still not repayed the debt to society. But, I'll keep trying. I won't sit at home and suck down meds. I'll leave for work at an ungodly hour and will probably get back late (again).
The funny part about this thread is that the OP is having trouble collecting himself after his own errors while turning his back on the catholic faith.
The primary building block of the true Catholic faith is penance. Paying back to society and God what you took from it and Him. That does not require meds. It requires commitment and the acceptance that you have done something so wrong that it can never be repaid.
The forgiveness comes with the acceptance that you will try so hard to repay the debt that you will never again repeat the same mistakes because the re-payment is so high. You are so busy repaying the debt that you don't have time to stack new debts upon the last ones.
In my opinion, a guy who spent 30 years f'n off and pursuing a criminal lifestyle doesn't deserve a repreive from penance till around 2022. It's only 15 years.
I've done 22 and I'm not done yet.
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vn_anon63xxx posted:
I've done 22 and I'm not done yet.
*repent repent repent* HATE HATE HATE *repent repent repent* HATE *repent* HATE HATE HATE *repent*
GOOOOOO CATHOLICS!
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What'd you do for those 2 years you wild monkey?
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You do understand what the thought "I HAVE DONE SOMETHING HORRIBLY HORRIBLE WRONG, AND I CAN NEVER MAKE AMMENDS WITH MYSELF. EVER." would do to most clinically depressed people?
Oh, wait, it's not about MOST people, it's only about THE BEST people, right?
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combat_mage_sc posted:
What'd you do for those 2 years you wild monkey?
Enough
I like and respect FYC because we come from similar backgrounds. We turned our backs on that lifestyle and work every day to make it harder and harder to return to it.
Returning to my previous life would now take more energy than it takes to repent.
It's a good feeling. I almost see the light at the end of the tunnel. And, I know I can't make a u-turn and return to where I was because it's just to hard to make ommends.
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combat_mage_sc posted:
I allways pictured rock bottom as a dark alley with a needle in your arm, a dick in your mouth with your front pockets pulled inside-out.
Thats what rock bottom looks like in my minds eye.
Well, combat, I've met folks who didn't hit their "bottom" until in such dire straights. Perhaps not as fantastic as your vision, but close to it.
In that way I was lucky, I didn't go quite that far down in life. I remember a time I lived on a box of malt-o-meal for a week. At least I had water and a stove to cook it on. I remember a time I mentioned in my initial post, where I lived for several months in someone's back yard (with permission), showered using their garden hose, and otherwise scraped along doing the best I could at the time. Saved me, really, as they helped me get the job as a janitor that led to my being able to earn my own way again, and eventually reach this point of my life.
Anon, nothing I can say to you will change your perspective. I see now that you bring what is, to me, the insanity of Catholic doctrine and dogma into this argument. I'd rather be human, and live as well as possible, than go back into that insanity, dysfunction, and hypocrisy. God doesn't need me to suffer, nor will I submit to the people in Catholicism who propose such a way of life. Fortunately, Catholicism no longer has the power to kill heretics such as I am considered to be in their eyes.
Remember, there are many paths to the top of the mountain. No one knows all the ways, and no two people take the same path.
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vn_anon63xxx posted:
combat_mage_sc posted:
What'd you do for those 2 years you wild monkey?
Enough
I like and respect FYC because we come from similar backgrounds. We turned our backs on that lifestyle and work every day to make it harder and harder to return to it.
Returning to my previous life would now take more energy than it takes to repent.
It's a good feeling. I almost see the light at the end of the tunnel. And, I know I can't make a u-turn and return to where I was because it's just to hard to make ommends.
I would be interested in hearing of your ride through life. I enjoy reading your replies and find you to be quite humerous, whitty, challenging, and driven. I would like to know what you had to overcome and what your vice was.
I am just now getting over one of the hardest things I have faced in my life... and I feel damn good about it myself.
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Come on, anon!! Give me something.
Were you just the typical 1980's coke head or did knock over a couple 7-11's?
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Eshvanu
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Rain, good to hear you're getting past it. Takes courage to do so. I wish you well, man
Nailer, my mind-set prior to abusing drugs was already self-destructive. Following that path was just natural for me at that point. I'm glad you were healthy enough to see the eventual outcome, and confident enough in yourself to walk away. I envy you that kind of stability. I hope you continue moving forward in your life.
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Eshvanu posted:
Rain, good to hear you're getting past it. Takes courage to do so. I wish you well, man
Nailer, my mind-set prior to abusing drugs was already self-destructive. Following that path was just natural for me at that point. I'm glad you were healthy enough to see the eventual outcome, and confident enough in yourself to walk away. I envy you that kind of stability. I hope you continue moving forward in your life.
Thanks, Eshvanu.
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good read, thank you. May you find the top of the mountain.
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Wowser Esh! What a life you have led so far. Thank you for sharing.
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-Dyslexia- posted:
good read, thank you. May you find the top of the mountain.
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You can't find the top of the mountain at the bottom of a prescription bottle.
Man up.
That's been the only answer for thousands and thousands of years.
Freud didn't change the answer. He changed the question. People have been confused ever since.
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I believe he's said two or three times now that he's stopped taking medicine.
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Rock bottom is next to Bikini bottom. It's really dark and Spongebob gets lost there.. then was having a hard time getting a bus back home. Finally, a scary fish turns out to be not so scary and helps him balloon back home.
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He can't catch the bus!
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Ibbeh posted:
I believe he's said two or three times now that he's stopped taking medicine.
Ibbeh, that message just isn't breaking through to Anon's version of reality. I don't know why. I wonder if he'd tell a diabetic to "man up" and stop using insulin, too?
Hin 
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Mental block?
Esh
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I think when John Newton wrote Amazing Grace he was a slave trader.
Saul was slaughtering men and women by the camel load for following Jesus.
I think Anon and Eshvanu (probably even FYC from what I remember reading about him) can probably answer this question:
What's so amazing about grace?
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Eshvanu posted:
Ibbeh, that message just isn't breaking through to Anon's version of reality. I don't know why. I wonder if he'd tell a diabetic to "man up" and stop using insulin, too?
Haha, I just just picture some sitcom character in the vein of Red from That 70's Show lookin' down at some kid, smacking the needle out of his hand, saying "Man it up, boy! You don't need that wussy-boy crap!"
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I did not applaud the story he told in any way and several others did not as well. I see nothing glamjorous or romantic about it. I'm sure no one else does either. The people that did applaud him did so I'm sure because of the life he's leading now. I suppose it is a good thing, but what he did say about his past is a pretty good indicator that he's likely to backslide again.
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The truly amazing thing about "grace" to me, when I was told I was being granted such, was simply that someone who made the mistakes and caused as much damage as I did in my early life would be granted any at all. I know better now, after much time and effort on my part to understand. The mitigation of what occurred to me in my early childhood played a part.
More, I know now that, for all the mistakes I made, even at my worst times I was still doing some good things. At times, even though I was near my most horrid times inside my head, I was making what some considered to be truly noble gestures, and continuing to make contributions to the community. Knowing and understanding that now helps me look for the same good in other people who are suffering as I did, and struggling to find their way out of that downward spiral I lived in for so long a time.
Having had years now of giving back to the community, repaying money, and repairing some of the damage done helps me feel as if I've earned some of the "grace" granted to me years ago. I believe I've brought some honor and respect to those who taught me well, even though I seemed not to learn at the time, and took so long to begin moving forward. I'm hoping I've brought the same things to those who trusted in me to come back into a decent life, and stood by me when most people had given up on me.
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Wow, Esh, you definitely have had quite a life. Glad you were able to pull it together and start straightening out. Keep it up
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Moses was 80 when he started his ministry for the Lord. (just something to think about...)
Unfortunately I don't know anything about the Catholic church or what they teach. Well, maybe || that much.
I never added this to my focus thread since people around her don't like God too much. But I have never known a moment of my life without Him. I talk to Him, He talks back. I imagine you've already tried that. 
One Edit Note: You *never* earn grace. It's a gift. A free gift. But a gift nonetheless.
You probably hate it when people talk about God, do you?
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Well, this topic got interesting.
I don't have much more to say aside from, "Some folks gotta learn the hard way." I don't judge Esh or Anon or FYC because I've known people like that my whole life - it was a lucky thing too, or else I may not have learned from their mistakes and kept myself on the straight and narrow. The real crimes that were committed weren't to society...it was to themselves. You can repay your debt to society all you want, but it is meaningless unless you can forgive yourself.
It only becomes too late to make amends when you're dead.
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Reapist posted:
I did not applaud the story he told in any way and several others did not as well. I see nothing glamjorous or romantic about it. I'm sure no one else does either. The people that did applaud him did so I'm sure because of the life he's leading now. I suppose it is a good thing, but what he did say about his past is a pretty good indicator that he's likely to backslide again.
As long as I continue to work with my support groups, and do my footwork, I'm in a pretty good place for continued sobriety. I have no desire to return to the kind of life I lived. Indeed, I'm quite afraid of going back into what was, for me, a living hell. I believe I'll manage to avoid slipping back into such a state of mind and condition of body.
Still, as you imply, the possibility of relapse will be a danger for me the rest of my life. Nothing I can do will remove that danger. The best I can do is to keep doing what works for me to stay sober, and live a decent life. The rest is beyond my power.
-Abednego- posted:
Moses was 80 when he started his ministry for the Lord. (just something to think about...)
Unfortunately I don't know anything about the Catholic church or what they teach. Well, maybe || that much.
I never added this to my focus thread since people around her don't like God too much. But I have never known a moment of my life without Him. I talk to Him, He talks back. I imagine you've already tried that.
I can't think of a time in my life when I didn't believe in God. I simply don't understand what God is, how God works, or why God would care about someone as unimportant and insignificant as me.
So, when it comes to the God parts, I have faith in God, and continue doing my footwork whether I understand the reason or not. Some days, I'll understand quite clearly why I'm doing what I do. Some days, I'll figure out why I did something that needed to be done in the past. Some days, I have no clue, and will not get a clue no matter how long I live or how much I learn. I'm ok with that. I have faith I'll be guided to what is best for me. I might not like what I get, but I'll continue to work on forward progress regardless.
One nice thing I've learned over the past 10 years is, I'm not God. Knowing I'm not God takes a whole lot of pressure off me.
Edit - I dislike when anyone tells me I have to believe God as they believe God. No one has the right to tell another person any such thing, imo. Still, I'm learning by the examples of others, and my own efforts, to dislike the behavior while still loving the person. That's a real gift for those who can do it well.
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Eshvanu
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Dark_EternalFF posted:
Well, this topic got interesting.
I don't have much more to say aside from, "Some folks gotta learn the hard way." I don't judge Esh or Anon or FYC because I've known people like that my whole life - it was a lucky thing too, or else I may not have learned from their mistakes and kept myself on the straight and narrow. The real crimes that were committed weren't to society...it was to themselves. You can repay your debt to society all you want, but it is meaningless unless you can forgive yourself.
It only becomes too late to make amends when you're dead.
Hehe, D_E, I had to learn the hard way. Fortunately, I've been able to help some other people avoid the mistakes I made. I agree, forgiving oneself is a necessary step in moving forward. Until I started to forgive myself, I couldn't even face what I'd done to learn the lessons and not repeat the mistakes.
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Rain1Dog
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Reapist posted:
I did not applaud the story he told in any way and several others did not as well. I see nothing glamjorous or romantic about it. I'm sure no one else does either. The people that did applaud him did so I'm sure because of the life he's leading now. I suppose it is a good thing, but what he did say about his past is a pretty good indicator that he's likely to backslide again.
Its very easy to judge others and their outcomes in life from your angle...for you to truly understand you would have to experience life as he did from the beginning. Who knows maybe you would have flourished...maybe you would had given up..followed a similar path as he if you experienced life just as he had.
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Reapist
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Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm not judgeing him. I did not applaud him and I did not condemn him. I think he took a beating from Annon because he reminds Annon of himself and he hates what he sees in himself. All the anger and spite from Annon is what Annon would like to say to himself but he's scared of himslelf.
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Samna
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Esh *salute*
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You have entered a dark cave. You see a N00b starting useless threads.
Do you want to (F)arm, F(L)ame, (R)eply, (I)gnore, Ra(N)t? > L
Your flames easily prove what a moron she is!
A Moderator enters from the west!
You have been banned! Play again? Y/N
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Eshvanu
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Samna *bow*
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Eshvanu
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Well, that's all I got for today. See ya all tomorrow, ACF
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Poit-Narf
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Wow... thanks for sharing Esh!
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"I think so, Brain, but there's still a bug stuck in here from last time." Rift: Deepstrike/Guardian Poit (Mage), Point (Rogue), Popit (Cleric), Poiyt (Warrior) http://immortal-guild.com/ "You're so heterophobic" -Lyli
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Poit-Narf
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Elaok posted:
Esh ... what exactly is Corbomite Maneuver ?
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/The_Corbomite_Maneuver
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MoFoEskimo
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Seriously esh, get that book!
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Wulfgarr
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Goodluck Esh!
Don't let the hyper-victorians get you down! They are too weak to define themselves, so they have to let some social construct do it.
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Oh it's not a weakness. It's a strength you couldn't possible begin to imagine.
And it's all thanks to the half unicorn half turtle in my mind who tells me what is right and wrong. And the first thing he told me is that he does NOT like people mocking uniturtlecorn. Those who mock shall burn in a suitcase created personally for you for most of eternity, only to have a quick field trip to heaven for you to ride the monorail (ONCE) so you get to see everything you missed out on while you were cooking. Which, mind you, is a lot. I can't get into it, but I'll give you 2 little teasers... Waterslide and mini-golf. Then back to the suitcase, and then back to nothingness.
Don't you see? Here take this pamphlet, this secret decoder ring *wink* and here, call this hotline if you have any questions. Or heck, you can just come over tonight! We've got rice krispie squares in the basement!
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Hyperimiator
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Thanks for opening, up. I feel bad for you, all the time you lost and sorry for those you may have harmed because it took so long for you to find you way.
I hope you keep the peace you have found within yourself
You have no need to defend the past, it is what it is. Not everyone has the same strength of will, but you must commit to do the best you can.
Harm no one and live the golden rule, you already seem well committed to that and it is an admirable way to be.
Best of luck on your continuing journey.
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Darwynnia
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Nice read, Esh!
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Lynea
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Dark_EternalFF posted:
The real crimes that were committed weren't to society...it was to themselves. You can repay your debt to society all you want, but it is meaningless unless you can forgive yourself.
It only becomes too late to make amends when you're dead.
With my initial reply, I didn't applaud Esh, but I thanked him for sharing his story with us. I was a complete and utter F-up for most of my life. I hurt a lot of people (including myself) until I realized I had an actual mental problem - I'm Bi-Polar. While Esh has a slightly different issue with Clinical Depression, at least he figured it out, got help, and is on the road to recovery. Some of us can't just suck it up and buckle down to repay the debts we owe. We have to take time to heal ourselves before we're any good to anyone else. That's what Esh is doing and it's good to see the efforts he's making and how far he's come. With his attitude, I'm sure he will continue to do whatever he can to help society as a whole rather than just working his ass off to line his own pockets.
Thank you for sharing your story with us, Esh. I wish you only the best on the rest of your journey.
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UNCLEofBELT
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good read,thanks for sharing
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-Abednego-
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That's why I asked Eshvanu about grace.
Grace, quite literally, is a gift that you don't deserve and can never pay back. The deeper you hit rock bottom the better you understand grace. Ask John Newton.
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UNCLEofBELT
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good read,thanks for sharing
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-Abednego-
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That's why I asked Eshvanu about grace.
Grace, quite literally, is a gift that you don't deserve and can never pay back. The deeper you hit rock bottom the better you understand grace. Ask John Newton.
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rage-ii
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Esh is fricken awesome... He has helped me deal with some of the roughest times in my life... VIA PM... How redonkulous does that sound? but he offers some great advice and a great perspective on lots of stuff...
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Bakerton
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Good read. Esh, I wish you the best of luck in recovering from and making amends for your past.
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Eshvanu
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Hmm... I think I want MoFo on my creative team! Wonderfully imaginative
Wulfgarr, Thank you. Such attacks hurt, in part because I accept responsibility and accountability for the poor choices I've made in the past, and the damage I've done. Still, I've learned is to set good boundaries, and let other people carry their own burdens. Helps me get along with people who, while still being fairly decent, have blind spots much like my own.
Thanks Hyper. I'll continue to do my best, and move forward with what I often call slow, boring, steady progress. Your example here on ACF is a positive influence on me.
Lynea Hearing your story on these boards has helped me a lot, especially when it came time to stop the meds and try to live without them. Again, Best Wishes to you, and congratulations to your SO
Abednego, I need to think on that a while. I'll look up John Newton, too. Part of me wants to believe we have to earn everything we get. Still, I do understand the gifts I've received can't be payed back. So, I'll pay them forward and continue to keep my community dues current.
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Silverwuf
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Wow, I've been on vacation and missed this!
Esh
Silver
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Women who behave themselves rarely make history. My Give-A-Damn's Busted. http://www.thewufs.com/2003venture/motortrike.htm
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