quren_mt
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Spk would sure be disappointed if he ever found out how LT has gone down the tubes since it's been under new coders.
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-Zalliun-
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he would shake his head over the people not being able to overcome it.
Isnt IRC still in the plugin ?
A , Install Mirc
B , Find a IRC Server
C , Join a channel
D , Seutp LT to use IRC
E , Make a irc script that makes noise with tells
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Drakier
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you mean that the fact that LT is starting to actually attempt to conform to the rules of the game?
heaven forbid people actually follow the rules both the letter and the spirit.
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azraelthelost
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yea especially 7 years into it
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quren_mt
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am I supposed to feel guilty for cheating in a video game?
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Yula_the_Mighty
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so, what are people using for alerts now?
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quren_mt posted:
am I supposed to feel guilty for cheating in a video game?
Players have to sign an agreement with Turbine to not UCM in order to be allowed to play the game. UCMers are supposed to feel guilty because they are breaking that agreement and signifying that their word is worthless.
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quren_mt
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k
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Virindi-Inquisitor
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>> Players have to sign an agreement with Turbine to not UCM in order to be allowed to play the game. UCMers are supposed to feel guilty because they are breaking that agreement and signifying that their word is worthless.
If I remember correctly, the CoC is part of the license agreement...that would make breaking it not only going against your word, but violating the terms of a legal contract. You could be liable for damages in court.
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quren_mt
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Only if Turbine can prove an actual loss of monetary capital due to my actions. And then they have to prove how much capital was actually lost.
So, in theory you are correct, but in reality they would never be able to.
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Maddy_ACEDL
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<< Only if Turbine can prove an actual loss of monetary capital due to my actions. And then they have to prove how much capital was actually lost. >>
No they wouldn't.
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quren_mt
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How could they sue me for damages if they can't prove it?
You can't sue someone merely for breaking a contract unless you can prove that you were adversely affected by the breach of contract.
In civil court, the burden of proof is on the plaintiff.
You're arguing with someone that's pre-law.
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Maddy_ACEDL
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<< You can't sue someone merely for breaking a contract unless you can prove that you were adversely affected by the breach of contract. >>
That would depend on what the contracts says wouldn't it? Ever read some of those software EULA's and see what they say in them?
Granted Turbine wouldn't bother to take someone to court, they would just terminate their account with the person.
As for proving a lose of money, well if they are creative there are lots of ways they could do that in a court of law.
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Drakier
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a lawyer who breaks rules (laws).
great... how original.
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quren_mt
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Agreements, not laws.
The state of MA can't arrest me for macroing.
And not everyone in pre-law goes on to law school.
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Virindi-Inquisitor
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>> << You can't sue someone merely for breaking a contract unless you can prove that you were adversely affected by the breach of contract. >>
>>That would depend on what the contracts says wouldn't it? Ever read some of those software EULA's and see what they say in them?
>> Granted Turbine wouldn't bother to take someone to court, they would just terminate their account with the person.
>> As for proving a lose of money, well if they are creative there are lots of ways they could do that in a court of law.
No. The only penalty available in civil court is damages. Penalty clauses are expressly forbidden under common law, with the exception of liquidated damages clauses where the actual damage is likely to be difficult to assess at the time of breach (among other conditions). However, liquidated damages clauses must reasonably approximate an agreement of actual damages and cannot merely be punitive.
Simply: it's actual damages.
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Drakier
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Oh sorry.. a lawyer who breaks agreements with people...
just as bad in my book.
my word is my bond, and if I break my word, what kind of person am I?
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-paradoxlost-
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One not into bondage obviously =D
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Drakier
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lol.. indeed
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Duri_Gallant
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At least he is honest about it. More than I can say for most lawyers. 
Whether, what Quren does is unethical or not he is correct. The most they can do is ban him from the game.
Turbine would need to prove a loss of capital and then that capital would need to be greater than the sum of the legal costs for Turbine to even consider pressing charges.
In the case of a game Quren can argue that even though he is in violation of the COC he is entitled to play the game anyway he see's appropriate up until the time Turbine chooses to ban him. It would be pretty hard to show monitary loss on an online game unless he caused the servers to go down or hacked someones account.
It would be LMAO funny to see a case like this go to court. Most of the lawyers or judges would probably have no clue what the case was about.
~Duri
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Virindi-Inquisitor
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>> It would be LMAO funny to see a case like this go to court. Most of the lawyers or judges would probably have no clue what the case was about.
So basically it would be a completely average technology-related case 
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Duri_Gallant
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VI,
*chuckle* Yeah basically.
~Duri
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kinslayer271
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did you guys forget you are talking about a game?
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Drakier
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that's one of the lamest excuses in the book "it's only a game"
this "game" involves more people than just yourself.. if you want to cheat in a single player game like Oblivion or Quake, or whatever, that's your problem.. but when you start cheating in a multi-player game, your problem becomes everyone elses problem.
and game or not, ethics and morals are ethics and morals.. they apply to EVERYTHING you do in life, not just the things you "choose".
If you want to cheat by yourself in a situation that affects no one else, I can't hold that against you. But imo, people who have ethics of cheating in multiplayer games seem to have similar ethics in real life. Not all cases, but many.
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Schugeldson
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Well said, Drakier. This whole arguement shouldn't even be happening except a lot of the parents of the last 25 years stopped being parents and teaching their kids right from wrong. Now we've ended up with a society of "me" kids that believe that they can do whatever they want, whenever they want. They have no sense of right and wrong, because they were never taught any different. I raised my kids with love and respect and made sure to stress what is right and wrong behavior when dealing with other people in the world. It's not rocket science, but yet most of these "me" kids today have no clue of the SIMPLEST of concepts. They can't grasp it, because they've never been taught it. Sad.
They also have the most creative ways of "justifying" their "position". Morals (or lack of) can't be "justified".
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Paloma_
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It's not a game. Let's get that straight right away. It's a business and a service. A theater is no less a business for providing entertainment. A restaurant is no less a business for providing food. You can denigrate any item that way ("it was just a flick, get over it" - "It was just a dead cow, get over it"), but we still expect certain things from the businesses and services we purchase. And when you look beyond the monthly subscription fee and at the big picture, much of the current player base has spent significant money at this establishment. So, even from the aspect of a "Game," it's not pacman we're talking about.
When we enter the doors of the establishment, we all agree to a set of rules set forth by the business owners.
This business supplies additional content to customers who reach specific benchmarks. Whether they should or not isn't the point.
Presuming that AC is an arcade, with 700 machines, all the same. Each player at one of the machines. (No, this isn't about resources or "hogging a machine.")
Group A plays in person, sleeps, eats, lives, leaves and returns.
Group B places artificial button pushers at their machines, programmed to play endlessly, accumulating points toward various benchmarks. A player present at the automaton is immediately available to speak with management, and still subject to the various calls of a natural life - sleep, life, food, etc. A player who leaves the area, leaving his automaton in place, is neither able to respond immediately nor subject to real life restrictions.
And, in my experience, those who "break the rules" over "little stuff" are really quick to yell foul in other parts of life. The student who spends his time busting his brain studying for an exam or who didn't have time is going to SCREAM foul when another student uses a program to darken those little circles for him.
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Tiviee
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You people should be the ones on the chopping block - no mercy.
How can a game blame you when a few generations have been brought up on cheat codes, there is a whole libraary of how to cheat in games. It was not considered bad, it was considered cool to cheat.
[mod edit: Flames removed.]
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Duri_Gallant
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These posts crack me up ...quite amusing when you need to take a rest stop on a hectic day.
We were discussing legally whether or not someone could be taken to court for macroing. My opinion is that legally there would be no case.
Then we get the ...
o Anti-Macroing Coalition - I refer to them as the SOY group (Shame On You!)
o The Degenerative Youth of Today Movement - "When I was a kid we use to say please and thank you and help little ladies across the street! And the streets were made of gum drops and the houses were made of gingerbread!"
o The IHU (I HATE U) - This group could care less about what the thread is about. Their sole purpose is to wait for that one person they don't like to post their opinion so that can flame them.
o SA Group (Smart A$$ Group) - The sole purpose of this group is to prove intellectual superiority by writing a two page post with hypothetical arguments complete with footnotes.
Personally, I have been guilty of being a member of each of these groups at times.
~Duri
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Paloma_
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*proud member of the pseudo-SA group - and tired of the "It's just a game" argument.
No intellectual superiority. Just this ain't hopscotch, people. THAT'S "just a game."
I honestly am tired of the UCM debate, as Turbine has just managed to cover their fronts and backs so far. I just get tired of people trying to justify behavior with the "It's just X" argument.
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Drakier
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Tiviee: Refer to my previous post.
If you want to cheat in a SINGLE player game, I cannot fault or blame you. That's your own decision, and you hurt no one (directly) but yourself.
As soon as you bring it into the area where other people are directly affected, then it becomes a serious issue.
It's like all the "anti-drug" laws.. if a person wants to be a crackhead in their own house, they have no kids, no job, and no real reprocussions of doing it, then they can do wahtever they want in their own time in their own house... provided NO ONE else is directly affected by it. As SOON as their actions directly affect others (such as kids, job performance, etc) then it becomes a serious issue, and I cannot tolerate it.
If you want to go "cheat" for the sake of cheating, go play a single player game. There are many out there, and they give you the codes right up front in many cases. Cheat away. If you're going to play an online game where your actions directly affect others, then play by the rules. It's as simple as that.
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Maddy_ACEDL
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<< We were discussing legally whether or not someone could be taken to court for macroing. My opinion is that legally there would be no case. >>
The case would be for violating the EULA, and as I said I doubt Turbine would spend the money to do that when they can just ban your account and let you try to take them to court.
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Tiviee
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1) It makes no difference how much money you invested in this game, it was you choice, and it was your entertainment. No one owes you anything. You paid rent to be able to play the game nothing more nothing less.
2) Legality - there are no precedents for legality for virtual pixels - so all this talk about the law is nonsense. When there is a case it will be revolutionary - until then it is all science fiction.
3) There is no morality in games - games by their name are a competitive environment. People play to win so you cannot judge them or call them cheaters. A game is not the real world where there are laws, rules and moralities. We are not taught in school or church, synagogue, mosque or temple how to behave in virtual worlds. Therefore, it is just subjective.
4) Morality is a religious issue, once someone interprets the bible, torah or Koran about this subject for games we cannot honor what was written by a person as rules in this realm. Until taught in the schools and religious houses of worship how to behave in these games all your arguments are mute.
Drakier, your morality cannot be shoved down the throat of anyone else, you are not God nor the law and your interpretations are suspect.
edit, we clicked agreement to rules to get into the game - it is no different than clicking to attack a monster -therefore we cannot be bound by such EULA. How many people read that EULA, I know I didn't. No excuse but we are here to play a game and that is the only law here.
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Paloma_
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Saying that you didn't read a contract does not the contract null and void.
As for pixels, that's all any computer software is. The fact that you disagree, etc, after the fact has no bearing. While it's really pointless here, it'd be fun to see you try the same arguments against Microsoft.
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Drakier
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"Until taught in the schools and religious houses of worship how to behave in these games all your arguments are mute"
don't you mean moot?
As for that argument... ethics and morals are a cultural standard. They are defined by the culture we live in and by society.
That being said, the cultures of the world have created a basic set of guidelines and principles to govern ethics and morals. The whole "no lie, cheat, steal, kill" etc stuff are basic morals that pretty much the world as a whole have adopted. These actions have consequences in the real world. Unfortunately, it's a LOT harder for these consequences to carry over to the internet because of the lawless nature of the internet.
That is a whole different discussion however. One of the previous posters had it right in that parents within the last couple of generations have been increasingly failing to do their duty of teaching their children right from wrong. It has created a "me" culture and is only getting worse. Have there always been the "me" people? of course. but not like this.
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Schugeldson
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Tivee said : "Drakier, your morality cannot be shoved down the throat of anyone else, you are not God nor the law and your interpretations are suspect. "
It is not "his" morality. It's common sense and it's the difference between RIGHT and WRONG. It's NOT rocket science. Just because you think you can "interpret" things to fit into your "me" way of life, does not make it RIGHT. Morals are morals. If you think cheating in games with other players is right and not "your" set of morals, then you are a very sad individual. Being over the internet because you can be anonymous does not make it any more right than sitting down to a table with strangers and playing a game and cheating.
To try and weasel your way out of your lack of being taught the difference between right and wrong by saying such nonsensical things does not do well for your arguement. Cheating is not acceptable in most societies, otherwise we'd live in a one hell of a weird world (although it's starting to head more in that direction with the lack of understanding of the SIMPLEST of concepts).
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Tiviee
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Then build the perfect game, games are built to be conquered, what is the definition of a game, to make a nice flower pot of daises? No to kill and conquer - what the hell does society have to do with that - to shoot, kill and destroy to win - and you say I should be a good little boy and play nice, go salute the flag - go play disney games or sim city. Drackier put you finger up your moot. Games are not built for people to loose - they help people use all their capabilities to win.
How would you like to tell a navy seal to be nice, play nice. Stand there and let the enemy nail you. No you do everything you can to win. You want society morals, we build games to win to teach our young to kill. You want to play fair or die. Guess you might as crawl into your hole and die.
You think the hordes of poor trying to get into USA and Europe are playing to be nice, no they are playing to win, no matter the stakes. it is fit of survival, you pansies are not going to make it.
edit:
So the law is always just? having cops on the highways every mile to trap you to get money for the state is fair and usuing a radar detector is cheating? Well isn't the state cheating by fining you so much you can't even buy gas for your car.
BTW the game allows programs to allow assistance - IT IS ALLOWED - so what is your problem? Even the great Drakier knows this.
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Schugeldson
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And my case was just made perfectly by the post above this one. I don't even have to say another word. 
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quren_mt
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Interesting argument this has turned into.
My only suggestion would be to not judge people that you meet in real life based on your past dealing with them through virtual media. Many people have different perspectives. More often than not, I think you'll find many of the "cheaters" are amazing people and more outgoing and free-spirited than those who are obviously morally superior.
Life is too much fun to be taken so seriously.
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Nine_Penny
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Interesting....
Tiv, you do realize that when you grow up and get out on your own, you will find that most of what you said in that last post is pure rubbish.
This is of course based on the assumption that you are quite young. If not, then I apologize.
Best of luck to you. I feel as if you will need it dealing with the world. Hope you win!
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Nine Penny --- Xbow with a knife fetish http://legends.rbcb.net/ Give a man a fish, he owes you one fish. Teach a man to fish, you give up your monopoly on fisheries.
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Duri_Gallant
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*laugh*
I thought this was the AC Utilities Board but what the heck.
The topic is sociology and religion
I believe the moral decay in society can be attributed to the smaller family unit and from the failure of religion to be taught in schools.
Let me explain.
All successful societies throughout history were based on strong religious beliefs. All the values and morals we hold today were based on religious principles. For instance, do not lie, do not steal, do not murder, do not cheat on your wife, do unto others as you would have be done unto you are all from the bible.
Because children are not taught these values in school the only place they have to learn these values is from their parents. Unfortunately, in a society where both parents are forced to work just to survive children are lacking in teachers and role models.
It would be very easy for me to produce a statistical model to prove this but it would not be worth the effort.
Today we live in a society that is on a steady downward moral spiral. We are living in the "me" generation where the only thing that is important is what "feels" right. In fact, I laughed when I heard a commercial who's slogan was, "Do what feels right!".
Class dismissed.
~Duri
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Chako
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err... i use find-it for my alerts, i miss 6thsense
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Duri_Gallant
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Chako,
LMAO ...he was referring to alerts while he is UCM from moderators.
~Duri
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Kriket18
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Im keeping my mouth closed because c'relic will read this probley tommorow. I agree with everything Drakier has stated.. Im glad they decided to change LT, because a lot more people use it that did not like the alerts/UCM part of it. To me it takes the joy out of the game becuase you dont get to see your character level and dying. To me playing a role playing game is about talking to people and playing with other people not Macros. I support LT all the way for what they did it was a smart move..
PS: Can we please drop the detection threads/UCM/COC arguuments, its getting kinda old noe to be bringing it up.
 Drakier
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Arch_Magi
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quren_mt posted:
Agreements, not laws.
QFT
Besides, since when is using an alert program a violation? Using it to futher break another rule in the agreement is, but not the use of it in and of itself.
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headache_mt
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Use of unauthorized third-party software or macros with the Software may be prohibited in the sole discretion of Turbine. Specifically, you may not use third-party software which allows your character to gain experience points or items by engaging in combat without being at the keyboard, ready to respond to Turbine staff on demand (this activity is commonly called a “Combat Macroâ€). Logging off as soon as an admin appears (visible or invisible) or when an admin tries to speak with you will be taken into consideration in determining the use of Combat Macros.
So does Anyone that makes Plug-in's have Writing Permisson ?
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Only Problem With Gene Pools Is Theres No Life Gaurds ..... -Circus Clown . AKA "Homie Duh Clown" -
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Chazcon
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I like cheese.
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Chazcon - Aluvian swordsman
You say, "FOR THE VITAE!"
Ru tells you, "CHAZ!"
Simply Red tells you, "I am SO not recovering your body!"
-- Good times.
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Lurcher1
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Duri_Gallant posted:
*laugh*
I thought this was the AC Utilities Board but what the heck.
The topic is sociology and religion
I believe the moral decay in society can be attributed to the smaller family unit and from the failure of religion to be taught in schools.
Let me explain.
All successful societies throughout history were based on strong religious beliefs. All the values and morals we hold today were based on religious principles. .
Because children are not taught these values in school the only place they have to learn these values is from their parents. Unfortunately, in a society where both parents are forced to work just to survive children are lacking in teachers and role models.
It would be very easy for me to produce a statistical model to prove this but it would not be worth the effort.
Today we live in a society that is on a steady downward moral spiral. We are living in the "me" generation where the only thing that is important is what "feels" right. In fact, I laughed when I heard a commercial who's slogan was, "Do what feels right!".
Class dismissed.
~Duri
Quite bored at work, or rather avoiding work, so I figured I'd chime in on this interesting thread.
I disagree that the lack of religion in today's society is the direct cause of our moral decay. I think the moral decay of society is happening in the cities and expanding outwards and that expansion is the poor parenting skills of parents.
20 years ago if I screwed up, I got a 3" thick wooden paddle to my backside. Today, if a parent did that the liberal (or shall we say "politically correct") nazis would throw a parent in jail for child abuse.
"For instance, do not lie, do not steal, do not murder, do not cheat on your wife, do unto others as you would have be done unto you are all from the bible"
Sorry Duri, but these things come from common sense, not the bible. It's called the Golden Rule too.
Anyways, Im kind of curious as to the orginal topic of this thread. I thought that Turbine had asked Lifetank to remove admin alerts. So why go that extra step and use them anyways? I'd like to know why some of you ucm, just out of curiousity. Is it because you get some nice loot when you come back to the keyboard? Is it because you are selling characters on ebay? Is it because you just don't care how you level, just as long as you get to 275? Im just curious, someone with a pair answer me.
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quren_mt
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Leveling is tedious, redundant, and boring.
It also gives me a distraction while I do work at home.
I used to UCM all the time, but I've got 2 strikes right now. So now I stay within earshot of the PC, and most of the time I'm sitting at my desk doing work or reading.
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Nine_Penny
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Yes, I understand.
If only Turbine would put a "I win!" button in the games UI, you wouldn't have to be burdened with the terrible weight of leveling.
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Nine Penny --- Xbow with a knife fetish http://legends.rbcb.net/ Give a man a fish, he owes you one fish. Teach a man to fish, you give up your monopoly on fisheries.
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Lurcher1
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quren_mt posted:
Leveling is tedious, redundant, and boring.
It also gives me a distraction while I do work at home.
I used to UCM all the time, but I've got 2 strikes right now. So now I stay within earshot of the PC, and most of the time I'm sitting at my desk doing work or reading.
So, may I ask what parts of Asheron's Call you do enjoy?
One of my favorite aspects about the game is that no matter what level I am, there is always a challenge. I would think that skipping all those challenges and going straight to the high levels would lessen the experience of the game.
In all honesty, I don't find leveling tedious, redundant, and boring. So I guess that is where my curiosity towards ucmers begins. There is always something different to do that will help your character level. Jaws, pincers, tusks, kill tasks, trophies, quests, and etc. Getting a jaw, tusk, or whatever every 3 weeks or 4 weeks maybe redundant, but it was 3 weeks ago. Of course, that's just my opinion, and I probably don't view leveling as high as you do. Its a shame, though, that you also don't view the work involved to level as highly as you view leveling.
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quren_mt
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There is not a quest in the game that yields ~200 mil/hr.
And what parts of AC do I enjoy? Doing quests with my friends and hunting to find improvements to my items. I also enjoy macroing very much. I've been macroing for the past 5 years, gone through several different allegiances and met a lot of great people along the way. We would setup our macros, and monitor them while chatting in IRC. It's not as "press start and leave" as some people might suggest. There are a lot of variables to take into consideration when setting up a combat macro.
Macroing successfully is much more complicated than fighting manually, although fighting manually is much more work. Reason being, you're letting a computer program replace human decision making. (That's no simple task)
I love acquiring xp and I don't care how I acquire it. I will use the tools available to accomplish my goals as efficiently as possible. I'm not striving to L275 to be 275, I'm leveling to 275 so that I can get that last skill credit and rearrange my template. The past 50billion xp I've hunted are meaningless. I haven't been able to improve my combat effectiveness in over a year.
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quren_mt
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And, it is not a shame that I value things differently than you do. C'est la vie.
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Lurcher1
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So, its alot of fun to organize your macro (and possibly other macroers characters)? Would you say its more fun to organize and maintain an effective UCMing allegiance, group, fellowship, or etc than it is to play the game?
You aren't Que` from MT are ya? I always wondered how that monarchy could literally never talk to anyone while they were in the dungeons that they were in and obviously never were there..well at least 1 person in the irc chat room was to monitor them...correct?.....
I guess its kind of like the mob? Crooked and dirty way to do things, but the results and maybe even the infamy of it all makes up for how everyone else views you?
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quren_mt
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Peoples' misconceptions with UCMing are vast, and it would be a great task for me to attempt to explain.
No I am not Que', but I am good friends with him.
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migrax
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A pity this degenerated into a pro-anti macro bashing session. All I'd like to know is where do you macro? Because I don't care anymore about macroes, but I do care that whomever is hunting in the same areas as me has the wherewithall to decide not to kill the mobs I am killing and not loot the mobs I have killed. It's a simple concept, but macroes don't understand concepts, that is why I prefer to play my toons, and not let a machine do it. Then again some people that do actually play still steal and loot my kills.
migrax
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Maddy_ACEDL
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<< Peoples' misconceptions with UCMing are vast >>
It mainly seems to be the UCM'ers that come up with multiple definitions to fit their needs. Everyone else tends to stick with Turbine's definition:
Allowing your character to gain experience points by engaging in combat without being at the keyboard, ready to respond to an Administrator on demand (this activity is commonly called a "Combat Macro").
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Tiviee
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It is not that the game is tedious it is impossible for melees to hunt without buffs - try and run your lvl 20 without buffs throgh matron hive or lvl 40 through ravs.
Edit
(opps should have been in the other tank post LOL)
In any case it is appropriate becuase it is round about way of saying if you don't have plugins to AIDE your play then this AC! might as well just mule and organize your stuff or craft becuase not much else you can do in the game) Except you lvl 150+ melee that can buff self. Try and do that again. Maybe you just need to be ucm by GW at the eater pit yard on the boulders. ,,,Why the hell does turbine let that continue?,,,
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Drakier
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Quote Tiviee:
============================
It is not that the game is tedious it is impossible for melees to hunt without buffs - try and run your lvl 20 without buffs throgh matron hive or lvl 40 through ravs.
============================
In case you were unaware, that scenario you so accurately portrayed is a DIRECT result of XP Chains and Combat Macroing. It USED to be possible to hunt melee without buffs.. same with Archers. Melee's were very selective over which buffs they used, and I have always been self-buffing since forever.. My first character was self-buffing, as are all my characters since. It's still possible to play a Melee self-buff, but it is currently pretty difficult to play a melee without ANY buffs in a dungeon that is supposed to be accurate for your level. This is a direct result of all the massive leveling due to XP chains and Combat Macros. This insane flow of XP caused Turbine to have to "up" their content levels and therefore rebalance all items and creatures in the process.
Thank you for helping to prove my point that Combat Macroing has been significantly harmful to the game (in combination with other exploits have even further damaged the game).
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Tiviee
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Drakier, in case you don't remeber the spawns and monster stats have changed since 5 years agao, the monsters you fight would have to be adjusted so you could fight melee without buff bots - but the game as EVOLVED as today - It is Impossible - I would love to play without buff bots but it is almost impossible today - tweak the game and i will come.....
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Maddy_ACEDL
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<< I would love to play without buff bots but it is almost impossible today >>
Impossible you say? Hmm,, guess I can add "Does the almost impossible with ease" to my resume.
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Tiviee
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Sure Maddey try and divert the topic, make a big thing out a minor hiccup, just like you. You never wore red socks and superman on your underwear LOL get a life.....
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Drakier
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Tiviee: I play withotu buffbots.. I've never used a buffbot ever. I've only been buffed by someone else a few times EVER since I've been playing AC (since opening retail).
I'm very self-sufficient and I pride myself on being able to play the game with or without plugins, and with or without other people. I'm just as effective by myself as I am with others in a group in many cases (other than places that FORCE grouping due to levers or other mechanics).
It took a LOT of effort on my part to get my character to where I have it.. I started out weak in magics, and I took a LOT of time and levels to finally get all 3 schools. I played without Life and Creature for a LONG time, and started with only Item magic. Eventually after many levels, I picked up Life, and around level 90 I was finally able to pick up my Creature.
I played just fine without them. Was I as powerful as WITH them? No. But I was able to play, and suffice without. I had to find good armor and items to use in place of Creature magic, but I was capable of doing it.
So.. can the game be played without? Most definitely. Is it anywhere near impossible? Absolutely not. In fact, it's quite easy to play the game without buffbots or self-buffing even. Can you be a power gamer and fight in the absolute hardest place? No. But it's not always about being in the hardest place. That sounds like competition which I attempt to avoid. Hardly any good comes from me attempting to compete with the Power Gamers or people who spend all day every day ingame. I play very rarely because my schedule does not permit it. How can I assume I can keep up with the people who play 12 hours a day?
Maybe YOU want to be the best and that may be your motivation for UCMing because you feel you cannot attain "Maximum Level" or a maximized character without having the computer make up your levels for you. But I don't personally feel that is the point to the game. If you feel some inadequacy or need to be the best, *shrug* perhaps there are other issues you should be addressing rather than the UCMing ingame?
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Tiviee
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sure sure sure and you walked at 2 years old Drakier LOL
Just becuase I post on here does not mean I support or attack UCM, my highest lvl is 143 on any server. I play to have fun not have lvls. I admit I UCM from 90 to 140 but that is it(and I only have 2 of these 1 was pushed up by myself). Sorry if I am bad boy in your eyes or if I should have my virtual fingers cut off.
I am just saying Drakier, that intodays game, you could not do what you are saying, in all honesty. You see I am not calling you a liar, I am nice.
edit
I feel no need for UCM, it doesn't help me or the game any, I had my taste and had enough, Did I miss out a lot on the game, yes, I never did a queen quest, never visited caul, never new islands -was it due to UCN - NO - I just missed out, my loss -
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Drakier
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what do you mean you couldn't do it in today's game?
I'm doing it. I'm proof that it's possible. I could start a new character and do it again just as easily, or actually.. even MORE easily considering the increase in XP from creatures... especially low level creatures.
It's completely possible. No one HAS to use buffbots, or plugins, or macros, or anything else. It's completely possible to play the game "pure". There are many players who do it currently. You might be surprised at how many people actually play AC pure (or fairly close to pure).
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Tiviee
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If there is a way to Play in TODAYS game from 5 to 100+ without buffs as a MELEE not mage, I would love to see a write up becuase I have never seen this game - I have tried many times and I get clobbered everytime I try - and it is no fun for a lvl 20 to hunt lvl 5 druges as the only way to live.
If true and can be proven I will be ist to admit and appologize. I have heard over and over it is possible and I affirm over and over it is not possible in todays game to play without buffs or help and without xp items.....
edit
Maybe I would be surprised but it is just as much a secret as the GW Macro pit - and i say it is Baloney and nonsense and not true, and if people have done it they are not telling the truth about how they did it. You can easily level with xp quest items and monster items and that is NOT PURE. Leveling by just hunting monsters is what I am talking about without any xp item from quest or monster - PROVE IT.
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Drakier
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without ANY buffs? Ever? that's a personal character choice.
As I stated, I started with ONLY Item magic. I picked up Life after about 30 levels, and then picked up creature 60 levels later. That was MY personal character choice.
Its technically possible to play a pure melee without buffs. He's not going to be a very good character however because lack of magic would severly cripple the character, but it's still possible. Woudl you have to level off drudges for a long time? absolutely. Would you be 50 levels behind the curve? probably. Is it impossible? no. But IMO it would be pretty stupid to attempt to play a no-magic melee character. What are you going to put the skill points into instead?
Edit
Pincer Turn-ins are part of the game and game mechanics... why are you bringing that stuff up?
That's ridiculous.
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Tiviee
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The Pure Player is absolute bull fodder becuase those so called Pure players have used trophy items, picers, quest items like alloys and other items to hand in to gain levels, Yes you can reach 30 just on the game junk to turn in for xp - having another Pure player vuln the monsters for you - That is not Pure.
Pure is playing on your own resources with the skills and points you have without turning in xp junk to level - yes it is possible but 5 years later you would still probably be under lvl 30 - just a nonsense argument - Maybe you like Ronald Regan to go back to better times but you find out those times were not any better - it was all a fairy tale.
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Drakier
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I'm talkign about turning in YOUR OWN pincers.. not having someone turn in pincers while in fellow.
I'm talking Pure Player as a player who plays the game as intended without the use of Decal or other plugins/macros.
They can use the ingame mechanics to the best of their ability. They do not use buffbots or use fellow-turnins or anything like that. And yes.. it's possible.
the ONLY thing I personally use Decal for is Oracle of Dereth, NB2, Magellan, and occasionally 6th sense (while it worked). Those are the only plugins I've ever used. I didn't have need for other plugins, and I didn't use them. I used Oracle for navigation on the landscape, used Magellan for navigation in dungeons, NB2 for quick buff profiles (but I could buff just as easily and well manually.. just prefered to have profiles) and 6th sense when I was looking for Ralirea or other rare spawns.
I have played that way forever. While I don't personally consider myself a completely "pure" player, my playstyle is more pure than "average" these days. This isn't abotu how I played my character heover. It's about your claim that how I have played my character is impossible... then when I call you on it, you throw in weird stipulations on it. Maddy has a very similar playstyle to mine. It's far from impossible. Just takes more time, effort and dedication to your character. I play my character ingame as ME. Its an extension of me, so I hunt and quest as if it WERE me. I'm a classic role-player in that sense. I don't RP in the "thee thou" sense, but I treat the game world and my characters as extensions of myself and the real world. Which is also why it pisses me off so much when people treat the game world like crap and treat eachother like crap. I might be a little extreme in that sense, but I take personal pride in my characters and how I interact with others through that character ingame.
I'm a solo player mainly, and I've always been that way. I get by on my own, and I push the limits of what I know my character can do. Because I'm so intimately familiar with my character, I know what he can and cannot handle and how to get the maximum out of him. I know how it's best for him to tackle groups of creature, and I know when to not run him into a room full of creatures. I've PLAYED him since level 1 the hard way. Every second of his playtime I've been in complete control. THAT's what it's about in my opinion.
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Tiviee
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Drakier, you see - you are not as PURE as you thought you played. You are using the Loop-holes of the game to further you character - How is that any different than ACM which is allowed by CoC?
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Drakier
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What are you talking about?
I never said I was a pure player. I'm more pure than the average player these days, but I never claimed that I am a pure player. But that is a far cry from me not being able to be. I can play as a completely pure player if required. If Decal was banned outright today, it would minimally affect me. But then again, I don't use Decal these days anyway because none of the plugins I used to use have been updated for ToD. Oracle doesn't work, NB2 doesn't work, Magellan doesn't work, and 6th sense doesn't work. So ... what plugins do I use? None.
I HAVE used plugins in the past, and when they worked, those were the plugins I used. But I could still play without them. That's the difference. Many players ingame these days CANNOT play without Decal. Buffbot babies, Mages who don't know how to play without some caster, etc. These are the types of characters that CANNOT play without Decal in the game. I can still play my characters just fine (and have). I'm not super high level. I'm not attempting to be. I play the game at my own pace, and don't attempt to compare my character to other characters in the level sense. I'm happy with his performance, and ultimately that's all that matters.
As for your "loop holes" what are you talking about? what "loop holes" am I using? I go to the eviscerator dungeon, grab a pincer, and go turn it in. How is that a loop hole? I go to AL and grab some tusker tusks, take them back to the guy, and turn it in. Where's the loop hole?
I don't hunt with "vulners" or any other assistance. I don't need to. I fail to see anywhere that I meantioned I play with "loop holes".
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Maddy_ACEDL
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<< You never wore red socks and superman on your underwear LOL get a life..... >>
To the best of my knowledge, no I did not.
Now again, what is so hard in not playing without buffbots?
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migrax
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I think you two are talking apples and oranges here. Tiviee is talking about keeping up with the Joneses and Drakier is talking about getting levels without buffs. One being competetively and the other not. Playing without buffs is not only doaeble, it was a way of life for many before the higher levels were attained, not everyone could buff themselves. I mean pre-DM when level 50 was considered high level and level 126 characters were few. Only the mages had all the buffs and so they rocked. Then it was realized what a boon magic was, everyone re-rolled with 3-schoolers and buffed themselve. I played an archer to about 45 and made an Og mage to keep up too. But I could still play my archer and make pyreals and have a blast of a time, I just didn't level as fast as 3-school templates.
Pre-DM 3 school melees were rare to uncommon, afterward, the reverse was true. Now due to buffbots and rending weapons, either is viable.
migrax
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Maddy_ACEDL
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<< The Pure Player is absolute bull fodder becuase those so called Pure players have used trophy items, picers, quest items like alloys and other items to hand in to gain levels, >>
What is a pure player? I don't see any issues with a "pure" player turning in items in thegame for XP, that is what those items are there for. A "pure" player is only suppose to level by killing things? News to many of us if so.
<< If there is a way to Play in TODAYS game from 5 to 100+ without buffs as a MELEE not mage >>
Now without buffs is different then without using a buffbot. Without buffs at all I would say it would be pretty darn hard unless you have a vassal that generates a lot of XP for you. Without using buffbots isn't that hard. I have a character that is level 131 and hasn't used buffbots.
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quren_mt
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<<<< Peoples' misconceptions with UCMing are vast >>
It mainly seems to be the UCM'ers that come up with multiple definitions to fit their needs. Everyone else tends to stick with Turbine's definition:
Allowing your character to gain experience points by engaging in combat without being at the keyboard, ready to respond to an Administrator on demand (this activity is commonly called a "Combat Macro").
>>
The misconceptions I am referring to don't have to do with the definition of UCMing. They have to do with the details of UCMing. Such as, how complicated it is or isn't, what really goes on, how the programs work, what needs to be done in preparation, and how to stay one step ahead of the envoys.
For instance, a common misconception is that groups of macros are watched by someone in IRC and anyone tested will be controlled remotely through IRC. While this is partially true, it has been broken for about 3 years now. IRC remote control worked between the time they were developed after macroing was considered against the rules, and until the, then admins, caught on and merely asked different questions. Such as, remove your helm and put it back on, or they'll ask the player what color their robe is or something.
So what does that mean? For the past 3 years, any UCMer that was tested and passed was actually at the keyboard and responded. Whether through the use of alerts or active monitoring.
Now, there was work being done on a feature of LT that would provide comprehensive remote access capability, but from what I understand it was never completed. (If it was completed, it was never implemented. Even to those "paying" customers back when LT was private.)
I swear, there are still people today that think Que' and his buddies are still remotely macroing in Lacuna. 
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Lurcher1
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I would play pure if I had people to play pure with. But usually when someone "new" joins Dereth, the first person they find shows thems the buffbots, shows them the xp dungeons, and then its all down hill from there.
There are plenty of things to do for a person that would want to play the game pure. I bet probably the majority of new players in the last several years has no idea what a Lucky Gold Letter or a Scarlet Red Letter are.
What about a bandit weapon? My orginal character used 1 bandit yaoji for probably 50+ levels.
I'd love to have a new server that was decal free. Encrypted somehow to prevent any 3rd party interference. Not because Im anti-macro, but rather beause Im pro-playing.
Pro-playing has become a thing of the past. If you're not over 140, then you're sitting in an xp dungeon still probably. And I don't agree with that principle. Do I have to live with it? Yes. Do I live with it? Yes.
Would I like the ability to create a character tonight and go to a starter town and find another new character that would like to run around and kill level 5 drudges as we try to find the uberest loot off a level 9 mite? Sure! You know how difficult and fun it is to go against a pack of Banderling Ravers, Guards, and etc with just a few spells from the various loot gems you find on corpses?
I'd love the ability to find someone that hasn't started their character off with a rending weapon, a buffbot, and fully tinkered armor. But they don't exist. The player community's attitude has drastically changed the last 4+ years to where if you aren't a high level character, you ain't ....
Well If we eliminated buffbots, I think the world would be a much better place. Do I currently use them? Sure, I even use them with my level 171. Just so I can bane armor and buff weapons while the bot does my creatures/life spells. But In no way should a level 1 character be able to get level 7 spells on him. Perhaps if you can't cast a certain level spell yourself, a "boon" spell shouldn't be able to be cast on you.
Drakier is right, macroing destroyed the game. There are pros and cons to almost everything in this world and to totally disregard the cons to macroing...well you're just pulling the wool over your own eyes. This is why some things are against the CoC.
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Tiviee
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This is perfect example, my lvl 30 swordsman cannot touch an obsidian goleum lvl 51? without buffs. Even with lvl 7 buffs he gets hit decently. If I didn't have the horrible buff bots buff me what the hell could I hunt?
Maybe I could self buff lvl 3's?
So the gdam buff bots ruined this game that i cannot even play the game unless I had the buffs, cart before horse logic here. I think you gots forgot to bait your hook and are trying to catch the big one.
What can I hunt as lvl 30 and where if I can only buff self with 3's or 4's
Sure your lvl 155 doesn';t need buff bots LOL why speak the obvious.
Who cares if you dudn't need buff bots 5 years agao, it is not the same game as 5 years ago, you guys are stuck in the mud - Evolve a little bit like the game does.
Maybe you don't like the new coolants for airconditioners in cars and want to go back to freon???? or horse and buggy is even better.
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Drakier
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"lvl 30 swordsman cannot touch an obsidian goleum lvl 51"
do you not see something wrong with that equation?
a level 30 SHOULDN'T be able to touch a level 51.
in MOST games, you can barely touch things that are 10 levels above you.. let alone 21 levels above. That's suicide in most games.
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Lurcher1
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Pretty much what drakier said, Tiviee.
I remember when I use to go to, i believe, a dungeon called Nexus. It had obsidian golems at the bottom that I would harvest for hearts and make obsidian keys. Then I'd sell them so people could open the msyneumes that zombies drop.
Anyways, like I said above, all I had on my sword guy until he was around level 60 or 70ish was a slash bandit yaoji. Double strike. It would take me awhile to kill things and since he was a stupid swordsman, he died alot. He has a little less than 1000 deaths.
Sure, I got pissed off on alot of those deaths. Who doesn't? But I think those people that have 2 or 3 deaths, that have born on dates of less than a year AND are higher level than my 171 main character....have missed out on alot of challenge.
That's what's lacking in the game. With the buffbots, acm plugins, auto-looters, all the portals Turbine's added in the last few years, and etc......the game has been diminished to being bored. Some of you call leveling tedious....ok...some of you call buffing tedious...ok...some of you call finding items, trophies, and etc tedious..ok....some of you call kill quests tedious..ok...some of you call questing in general tedious..ok......what's left? Chatting with your friends? You can do that on IRC with the ucmers. lol
I dunno, guess I miss the whole point in semi-playing the game. I've only ever used 3 or 4 plugins. Sixth Sense and then Bandit Sight....so i could find dye plants and my corpses. Oracle of dereth which helped me find how to get to places.....treestats/acstats...and the various tradebot plugins over the years.
It was pretty sickening, to me, to be in a fellowship hunting the Dires or somewhere similiar and someone suddenly run off from the pack to pick up a dye plant....well crap...I better download that plugin so I don't get screwed out of finding things.
Treestats and acstats I used many years ago because back before macro hunting became so robust...I was actually close to the top of some of the categories....well that changed as soon as Eltank and etc became so widespread. Gone were the days of a normal everyday player being tops in anything. You had to watch Oprah while you played AC to have the highest skills in the game. *puke*
But anyways, back to the orginal topic.......I find it very discouraging that people make admin alarms. I sometimes question whether the decal developers give a ...., because lets be honest, they sure don't give the appearance of caring. With all that brainpower, they could of blocked certain things a long time ago.
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Krackcode
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There's drudge lurkers...that';s what I leveled off of almost exclusively...the various levels of drudges in the game.
It's not some one else's fault you don't know how to play lol
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Drakier
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Lurcher: believe me... we care..
but unfortunately it isn't nearly as easy as you make it sound.
the number 1 rule to security is that it takes the hackers LONGER to hack out the security and protections than it takes you to put them in. If they can break it in less time, then it wasn't time well spent.
We have yet to have been given any ideas that are feasible to the point of implementation. We've had our fair share of ideas, and some people have donated ideas on what to fix in that department. We've made our attempts at some of them, and others just aren't really possible under the current conditions. Ultimately it is up to Turbine to make the final say. Technically, Admin Alarms in and of themselves are not against the CoC. However, I know from personal experience that it IS against their wishes.. just not legally.
So until Turbine comes out and flat out BANS the usage of Admin Alarms, there isn't a whole lot that can be done about it. Turbine needs to take the initiative and effort and put a clause in the CoC banning them. They also need to take the initiative to do some more permanent damage in the way of breaking all Admin Alarms. We're doing our part as we can. Unfortunately, we don't have infinite resources, nor are most of the suggestions really possible.
That being said.. we care, and we're trying.
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^Thanks Big D.
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Tiviee
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You guys so biased so 1 sided.
At lvl 30 you can't hunt lurkers or Obsidian Goleums unbuffed.
If you played you would know. I don't want to call you liars but definately mistruths or not full story given from your side.
Bandit won't help you with magic attacks - you obiviously were buffed at your level 50's or self buffed with your bandit. That was ancient history - you cant play that way today becuase monsters are overpowered.
Yes, buffs overpowers the players but only becuase playes are underpowered without them.
Buff Bots saved this game -
You guys are sad, live in your fantacies and drams - enough said.
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Maddy_ACEDL
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<< Buff Bots saved this game - >>
And here I thought it was Ken Troops that saved AC...
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Drakier
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"At lvl 30 you can't hunt lurkers or Obsidian Goleums unbuffed."
nor SHOULD you be able to. That is the problem with buffbots. It ALLOWS level 30's to hunt things they SHOULDN'T be hunting.
You want to hunt drudges and golems at level 30, you should be hunting Sandstone, Granite and Iron golems. There aren't any level appropriate drudges for a level 30. The closest thing is a level 14 Drudge Slave.
Olthoi Gardeners, Olthoi Nymphs and Olthoi Drones are good for level 30s as well. Virindi Puppets also are some good hunting for that level, or if you don't like the magic creatures, there are Obeloth and Lithos Lugians which are good for lower level 30s.
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Virindi-Inquisitor
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The thing is, buffbots are merely an extention of something that has been a fact since the beginning of the game: a hybrid character is the most powerful. We don't 'need' spells because of buffbots, we need them because at some point everyone figured out that spells made you more powerful. Because of that, everyone started using them all the time.
Back in 2001, before Decal, buffbots did not exist, but you still would have been crazy to try to hunt high level content without full level 6 buffs. Ever go to the Aerlinthe lava flows?
All of the best melee/archer characters were designed as hybrids so they could have full buffs all the time. This was the reason for the popularity of the OG archer and the 10/10/100/100/55/55 dagger template.
Buffs were necessary for high level content way before buffbots or macroing.
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Duri_Gallant
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I killed you thread! ...Why won't you die!!! 
~Duri
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quren_mt
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<<Buffs were necessary for high level content way before buffbots or macroing. >>
Bingo.
The high level content came after the extreme templates.
Buffbots were another revolution altogether. (which came later)
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Drakier
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But the point wasn't about when Buffbots existed, but how they're being used.
People are now "playing" AC and not really knowing HOW to play AC. All the old school players remember having to self-buff and remember how much of a pain it was to have to rebuff every 10-15 minutes.
New players are just shown the buffbots and told to "go for it".
Come to think of it, I'm not ever sure where buffbots came from into the original conversation and the whole point of the debate... other than they cause players to not ever really know how to "play" their own character. I think that was the original point. Characters who existed pre-buffbot days knew how to play their characters (for the most part) because they didn't have the luxury. Characters who were created after buffbots are less knowledgable about their characters, and more reliant on the buffbots to play. That reliance is not necessarily a good thing.
Edit:
I think it all really comes down to the question of... "can you play your character 100% efficiently and effectively on patch days when Decal is down?"
if you can answer that question yes, then you are most likely a player who knows how to play their character. You aren't reliant on Decal, buffbots, etc. These are generally more old-school players who have the experience. It's the newer players that were brought up on the Decal and Buffbot bottles and don't have the skills to play without those things.
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Maddy_ACEDL
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<< All the old school players remember having to self-buff and remember how much of a pain it was to have to rebuff every 10-15 minutes. >>
And you only buffed with protects/banes that you really needed. And due to a lack of spell expiration timer you either used some type of external timer or casta spell one level lower then your buffs to use as a "timer".
You could argue that even pre-buffbots that some people didn't know how to play their characters, they were the ones begging for buffs all the time.
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quren_mt
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<<or casta spell one level lower then your buffs to use as a "timer". >>
Those were the days
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agnari
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cast one spell level lower to act as a timer.
Yeah, the old school folks THOUGHT about the game and playing. The kids today get armor/buffs and go kill without much thought if any. Even worse are those that get to the dungeon, click the start button for life/el-tank and then watch 'wiggles'
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Maddy_ACEDL
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I still remember someone begging me to buff them in Mayoi, so I was nice and buffed them with the highest level spells I could, being level IV's. Said person then started to holler at me for only casting level IV's. Ahh, the good old days...
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kinslayer271
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I used to lick walls... Bah I miss draining 
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Absolute_Chaos
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I miss good old LT I have never been banned and no one has ever remoted for me, but I have been tested a number of times in gaunt and lacuna for wearing the Que' tag. Envoys used to harrass us back then.
Queren I think you were refering to LABS up there.
Also, don't forget that in Que we control our toons with our cell phones! <3 'd that rumor.
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Virindi-Inquisitor
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>> casta spell one level lower then your buffs to use as a "timer".
You didn't use a stopwatch????
Dang.
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quren_mt
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Yeah, there was another one that went around alleging we paid off an envoy.
People will do anything.
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Virindi-Inquisitor
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>> Also, don't forget that in Que we control our toons with our cell phones! <3 'd that rumor.
SMS lag time + speed of entry into a cell phone...hmm. If you only get 30 seconds...
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-Foxy-
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agnari posted:
cast one spell level lower to act as a timer.
Yeah, the old school folks THOUGHT about the game and playing. The kids today get armor/buffs and go kill without much thought if any. Even worse are those that get to the dungeon, click the start button for life/el-tank and then watch 'wiggles'
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agnari
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was there some kind of point you were trying to make foxy, or where you just showing you've mastered the techniques of cut&paste?
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Hazridi
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I used to bane all the elements on my little mage when retail just started. I actually remember when the elemental protection spells finally worked in beta (They were broke for a while). Spells have always been how you can do anything in AC. In beta I used to use Wands of Black Fire to kill people in PK as a sword char (the only requirement was like 120 lore).
It's how AC has always been. Real pure characters are based on the idea that baning is boring, so you get equipment that does it for you. Old-school characters that sucked weren't pure, the creators just didn't know how powerful AC magic is.
If you're bored, you might want to try a pure character. I had lots of fun with the few I had (not that I have played in over a year, though). Almost as fun as when I get my main character (who started as an Og archer without BOW TRAINED) into way too much trouble and I have to get myself out of it.
UCM is a complex issue with numerous reasons for the behaviour. Equating it to a lack of religion and morality is dumbing down the myriad reasons people choose to UCM.
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Striderlongshanks
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"yes it is possible but 5 years later you would still probably be under lvl 30"
Maybe you need to step back from your macros and try really playing LOL
SL
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Paloma_
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Doesn't anyone use arcane lore or loot gems?
Early on I was taught to have my armor cover my necessary buffs. I also ID'd and carried a boatload of looted gemstones. BTW, those now come in 7's. And they last as long as "cast" buffs.
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Striderlongshanks
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Your too old school Pal
Sl
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Paloma_
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*eyes Strider*
Yep. And proud of it, thank you for the early lessons.
And I can't help but snicker every time I tell a level 200 player where the plant lady is...or take them for their focusing stone.
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http://www.thehaven-we.com ****Disclaimer: Any errors in spelling, tact, or diplomacy are transmission errors. . . Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock "I don't care if I am a lemming -- I'm not going!!"
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Bull-vyne
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shut the hell up lol
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Drakier
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wow... what a reply.
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visionoftruth
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You know I dont think the topic is being talked about too much..
Envoy Alerts are no longer possible through decal from what I understand...
There is another way... It doesnt have anything to do with decal though...
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BhGambit
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This thread has been hijacked!
Did anyone ever answer this poor fella’s question? Or are we still going on our I'm better than everyone else high horse?
Talk about the what about me generation, FFS, get over yourselves and answer the guys question or keep off the thread.
Better yet make a new thread called I'm going to bitch and whine about UCMing, it'd be original to be sure.
Maybe VN should just let Sweet Mary back in, this has come to about the same state of affairs.
Here ya go bud, go find the program Virindi Chat, you can set up your own Envoy alert, took me all of 10 minutes the day that LTXI got hijacked and bastardized from its open code to it's new closed code. I won't even go into the ethic's of that decision. But IMO it's akin to stealing someone’s homework and then changing 3 words in the entire report and turning it in. In College you get expelled and is called plagiarism, in AC it's called "taking over" the program. 
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Maddy_ACEDL
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<< In College you get expelled and is called plagiarism, in AC it's called "taking over" the program. >>
I think you need to go back to school and look up plagiarism in the dictionary.
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quren_mt
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Many people have sent me PMs with viable alternatives.
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visionoftruth
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just fyi spies only works for uncloaked envoys..
When you get tested spies is useless...
Do I UCM? technically yes i take pisses and what not while using tank...
Am i always at or near the computer while xp'ing? yes..
I think a envoy alert should chime in game and be built in..
Big difference between going to work and leaving your macro on all day then staring at the tv while xping with tank..
I support UCM as long as you are close enough by to respond and pass testing which is really ACM. Anytime I get ready to leave I log off.
This is the reason I use sound alerts that completely bypass decal.
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Drakier
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you shouldn't be earning XP unless you're EARNING XP... period.
Watching TV is not attending your game. Sleeping in the same room is not attending the game. While I'd hate for this to turn into yet another ucm debate, Turbine has defined ACM is being in combat and being able to respond to an admin WITHOUT the usage of an alarm. If you require the alarm to notify you of admin presense, then you're no longer ACM and are now UCM. I personally don't agree with either because I think people should PLAY the game, but Turbine has their rules layed out clearly, and while I don't agree with it, ACM is technically legal.. as long as you're a REAL ACM and not a closet UCM or one who relies on an alarm to call themselves ACM.
but then again, this has all been previously discussed (within this thread) and takes no reiteration.
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visionoftruth
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exactly different opinions...
As long as I am around for a test that's good enough for me.
AC COC doesnt have real life authority value to me..
I do however think leaving your house while macroing is stupid but not really wrong..
The game was brought out of balance long ago with script aided players vs non script aided players.
It goes all the way back to acscript based on js.
I enjoy macroing,programming ect...
That's one of the reasons why I play AC and not WOW.
Like you said it's all been argued before.
I am not afk 90% of the time but still yes I break the rules but I dont care... I eat,poop, and clean here and there while playing sue me.
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Drakier
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so what you're saying is that you don't respect the rules placed infront of you by the game creator? the rules you agreed to every time you accept the EULA... every time you log in.
you seem like the kind of person who likes to pick and choose which rules suit you best... and follow only those ones.
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visionoftruth
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that's exactly what I am saying..
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Crelic_MT
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I suddenly feel the need to post a link to here:
Board FAQ and Rules
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visionoftruth
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No posts discussing or linking to MMORPG Exploits, Cheats, Hacks or Third Party Apps that may be against the CoC of the MMORPG you are posting about ?
Nothing of the such has happend.
The above indicates discussing exploits as in telling people how or where to get them..
I am pointing out what decal no longer does and what can be done without it which in it self does not break the COC. My idealism does not line up with anti macro thinking but then again that's not against the "faq" is it? Having fifty personally customized ring tones for your ac awareness is not against the COC. In specific having a envoy alert is not against the COC. What I personally do might be but then again that doesnt fit "discussing or linking to MMORPG Exploits" criteria does it?
If it did every single UCM debate in this silly boards history would result in alot of bans now wouldnt it?
Backto the topic at hand or shall we play tiddly winks somemore.
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Virindi-Inquisitor
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>> AC COC doesnt have real life authority value to me.
Once again, legally binding contract.
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Virindi --- ****Virindi Plugins FAQ**** http://www.virindi.net/wiki/index.php/Virindi_Plugins_FAQ http://www.virindi.net - Virindi Tank, Follower, Integrator, Reporter, VCS5, XPHelper, Item Tool, HUDs, etc... Decal Core Dev - http://www.decaldev.com
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Lurcher1
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Its such a shame that some of you have no regard for the game. Rules are established for a reason. Just because OJ Simpson gets away with murder (according to some), does that mean we should all go out and kill our worst enemy?
Just because someone else breaks the CoC of AC, should not mean that you have every right to do it as well.
Some of you, I would really like to kick in the nuggets. Its people like you that have destroyed the game. And I hope you decal developers out there have some remorse for creating this atmosphere. Sadly, when I try to figure out who the decal devs are....I can't seem to find any information on them, the history of decal, or etc. Seems like they are ashamed to be recognized.
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Drakier
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Lurcher: what do you mean? There is a lot of history and information about Decal over the years.. none of the Decal Devs are hard to find, or anything like that.. And as for Decal being the problem, that's only half true. Decal provided an interface, but it's the Plugin developers that exploited that interface for the wrong reasons. There IS a Decal Code of Ethics, and it forbids things like that... we can't really enforce it, and it's on an ethics and honor system... which of course someone who's UCMing or doing things against the CoE really couldn't care less about ethics or honor.
Regardless... if I were there in the beginning and looking in retrospect, I wouldn't have gotten rid of decal, but I would have clamped down more on what was allowed and possibly actually taken some initiative and time to block those that didin't conform.. (we were having a discussion about that yesterday on #ACdev).
Decal isn't the problem. Without Plugins, decal is really nothing. It's the plugins you should be blaming and the authors of those plugins which have negatively affected AC the most.
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Lurcher1
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^
"And as for Decal being the problem, that's only half true"
50% is worse than 0%.
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Virindi-Inquisitor
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If not Decal, it would be something else. As long as Turbine takes a weak stance on both player monitoring and the allowance of 3rd party utilities, and as long as people play the game, there will be UCMs. In my opinion, the best solution is to simply step up enforcement...but apparently that's just too expensive.
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Virindi --- ****Virindi Plugins FAQ**** http://www.virindi.net/wiki/index.php/Virindi_Plugins_FAQ http://www.virindi.net - Virindi Tank, Follower, Integrator, Reporter, VCS5, XPHelper, Item Tool, HUDs, etc... Decal Core Dev - http://www.decaldev.com
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Lurcher1
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"step up enforcement"
From my perspective, I would think that the makers of decal would distribute their software only if they knew they were doing everything in their power to prevent violations of Turbine's CoC through the usuage of their software.
Instead of taking the responsibility, it seems its always passed on to the 3rd party devs. and/or users of decal.
Doesn't the latest version have the ability to block plugins? Why not just block Lifetank until they can code their plugin so that people CANT ucm. 1 minute timer, 2 minute timer, random question every minute(i.e. what's the color of the sky).
Passing the buck has to stop somewhere. The root of the problem is having the ability to do it. If Turbine refuses to enforce the CoC (whether it be to lack of money, lack of manpower, or etc), Decal refuses to enforce the CoC, the 3rd party app makers refuse to enforce the CoC, and the end users refuse to abide by the rules.
Well, we have 4 parties contributing to the end user's violations...not just the end user.
So you guys just sit around and let the game crumble around us?
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Maddy_ACEDL
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Part of the issue is trying to determine if someone is UCM'ing or ACM'ing. ACM'ing is not against the CoC but UCM'ing is against the CoC. How can you tell the difference?
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Drakier
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Lurcher: you're misunderstanding a LOT of fine details here.
1) Decal cannot ban plugins that don't want to be banned. That's not what the mechanism is for. That was never it's intended purpose and it would fail miserably if we tried.
2) Decal cannot prevent someone from UCMing because we cannot detect that kind of stuff. It would take countless hours of coding time to get ANYTHING possible to ANYTHING relating to a "UCM" disable or ban.
3) We have more important things in Decal to work on ... such as resource efficiency issues.
It's not Decal's fault that plugin developers wrote plugins which are against the Decal Code of Ethics. Ultimately, it is the users of those plugins however which don't seem to respect authority or care that they are breaking the rules, and it is Turbine which are at fault for not enforcing their rules. We (as Decal Devs) cannot enforce Turbine's rules. It is not our department. We make Decal. We make Decal work. We provide a programming interface for plugin developers with a set of guidelines to follow.
Ultimately it is up to everyone else how they use it and Turbine to enforce their own rules.
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Lurcher1
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Maddy_ACEDL posted:
Part of the issue is trying to determine if someone is UCM'ing or ACM'ing. ACM'ing is not against the CoC but UCM'ing is against the CoC. How can you tell the difference?
Its pretty simple. Like when you find a level 275 in the 80+ Olthoi Armor dungeon, fellowed with a low level person who is sitting at the entrance of the dungeon. You say hello to the 275, you offer the 275 tapers, you offer him plat. scarabs, you offer him your first born child.
No response from either the person sitting there at the entrance or the guy making the xp. Not even a laugh at the first born child type joke.
What's a level 275 doing down there, aside from making the lower level some free xp? Well he's getting plenty of salvage and loot. Which floods the market. So, guesstimating that the UCMer is in the dungeon 8 hours while the person is sleeping or at work, he's probably pulling roughly 30 to 50 bags of salvage and any double minors, majors, rares, or low ws weapons. Which in turn he sells in the marketplace, which in turn pretty much reduces the prices in the marketplace (supply and demand), which in turns screws over the guy that worked 2 weeks to get that bag of Jet that he wants to sell.
So don't even try to use the arguement that ucming doesn't hurt others.
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visionoftruth
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Ok Ok..
Lets see here lets go back in history and look at macro's..
The First Macro people were using back in 01 was AC Tool.
Basically first people made a few simple scripts that would cast war over and over again while standing on the rock the acid stone olthoi dungeon for atlan weapons.
Then people got a little more creative and started figuring out how to monitor the health, stamina and mana via AC Tool and created some drain macros.
Then you had the AC Script come along the first thing that allowed you to build js and vb script based macros/scripts to do different things (mostly macro before it was against the COC). You see for the first 4 years of Asheron's Call macroing was ok and actually it was invited by some of the devs at turbine. Then much disputing happend and you had the Muslims and buddist that were formed.
This whole thing became religion like at that point.
The evil macroing muslims were terrorists and needed to be erradicated but the true nature of the buddists was an inspiration.
Somehow open conversation and representation was sorta squashed throughout time of the macroing muslims but somehow they were about 50% of the player base even as the whole religous tizzy dwindled onto other adventures (left AC) the ratio stayed the same.
If anything the evil macroing muslims were in the majority.
Now having said the above silly analogy lets talk a little more normal.
After AC Tool and AC Script came *Decal*..
It did not take long before there were drain macros for decal..
Then came Life Tank (spyk) and El Tank (El Garl).
Both of which had envoy alerts..
Life Tank had it built in with IRC remote capabilities which no longer exists and Elgarl had made a plugin called just whistle that lasted for a while until he changed his mind and everyone was sharing it.
People dont come to the boards here to say they UCM because they dont want to argue but me well I'm the type that truely doesnt care..
All you anti UCM blah blah blah religious people are really silly talking about kicking people in the balls as if there is a real life attatchment to your frustration. That's pretty silly. It reminds me of holy war fighting over God. Now that makes alot of sense..
Hey lets all fight over my God and you fight over your God and lets kill each other in the proccess..
btw..
I'm Christian
and most of your are probably athiests/agnostic (could be wrong).
Your the one who has all this high horse morals for a video game standard rule accompanied by a button pushed when playing?
Come on now.. really put things in perspective..
If your stupid enough to get caught then dont look at the the TV or take a Pee. If your smart enough to by pass decals little way of trying to get rid of envoy alerts recently then that means you know what you are doing just dont leave the house or your dumb.
Just because I dont adhere to some specific rules based on a distant relationship to what we commonly associate to as authority and choose to be yeah whatever Im going to the bathroom doesnt mean you are any more justified in your "moral" than my "moral".
It's just a difference of perspective and thats all it will ever be..
LOL it's like when Steve Jobs said everyone that pirates music is going to hell.
The above statement is some serious authoritive morally decided statement when the authority behind it is backed with no authority on the matter.
So your interpretation of what is right or wrong in this matter of some "COC" seems a bit flawed other than some basic way of saying that I am going to get in trouble for being how I am. However you know and I know that neither will happen. Even if I were to get banned I dont care.... I mean come on.... this game is 7 years old.. I actually play it because there is some plugin/development surrounding it.
You will never ever ever get rid of UCM.
It will always be 50% atleast of the player base.
Thats just the way it is..
Live with it.
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Drakier
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who was trying to make the arguement that ucming doesn't hurt others?
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Lurcher1
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^That's usually a common arguement of ucm/acm apologists.
vision,
You're correct in that UCMing will never cease to exist. There will always be someone that doesn't care about others, think they are superior than others, or simply doesn't care to follow rules.
Its fairly obvious reading some of your posts that you enjoy the thrill of UCMing, over the actual game play. The risk of being caught? The thrill of seeing what the plugin has achieved when you've come back to your computer(s)?
There will always be people like you in society, whether that be virtual or everday life. I sincerely hope your attitude towards this game isn't reflective of your viewpoints in real life. Its destructive.
Being a christian tells us nothing, aside from the fact that you could very well likely be a pedophile priest.
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Drakier
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<< ^That's usually a common arguement of ucm/acm apologists. >>
Was that directed at me?
I was simply asking a question who was making that argument?
I agree that UCM and ACM both hurt the game.. you won't get any argument there from me... but it was a legitimate question.
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Maddy_ACEDL
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<< So don't even try to use the arguement that ucming doesn't hurt others. >>
Who was making that argument? I was stating that it is impossible for Decal to tell if someone is using a plugin for ucm'ing or acm'ing, period.
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Drakier
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That's what I want to know Maddy. I'm a bit confused where that came from.
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Maddy_ACEDL
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<< You will never ever ever get rid of UCM.
It will always be 50% atleast of the player base.>>
Aren't 67% of all statistics made up?
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Lurcher1
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Maddy_ACEDL posted:
<< So don't even try to use the arguement that ucming doesn't hurt others. >>
Who was making that argument? I was stating that it is impossible for Decal to tell if someone is using a plugin or ucm'ing or acm'ing, period.
It was a pre-emptive counter arguement Usually I'll get the "it doesn't hurt you, so don't tell me how to play the game". Just using a broad spectrum for when the ucm apologists come around, sorry to confuse the both of you.
Anyways,
So, decal can't distinguish a UCM from an ACM? No kidding, eh. Could Decal's beta version?
Since macroers, for the most part, are simply WATCHING their screen, it wouldn't be hard at all for them to answer some random trivia questions every minute. Simple questions, such as "what color is the sky" could be rotated/updated once a week.
Or design it so the question has multiple answers, such as
1a."What color is the sky?" Please reply with the first letter being lowercase and the remaining letters in the word uppercase
1b. "what color is the sky?" Please reply in lowercase and have the last letter in your answer be capitalized.
Any incorrect answer logs you off, so if you are there and have a typo, you simply log back in.
I find it funny that you admit that acm/ucming has hurt the game, drak, yet refuse to do anything about it. Make the scumbags use actool or whatever for their ucming needs, chances are a few of them are zit popping teenagers that couldn't tell you what COBAL is, let alone be able to use scripts and etc.
Im sure there are others like vision, that are in the IT field. We can't stop everyone, but your help in the matter (even if its x amount of YEARS) would greatly help clean up the game.
You yourself admit that its hurt the game. Why twiddle your thumbs and wait for Turbie to do something, when you can?
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Drakier
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why should WE enforce Turbine's rules? We aren't the AC police. We create and maintain Decal.
as for your "Question" suggestion, do YOU want to sit there and answer questions in AC all day? I didn't think so. I certainly don't want to be bothered with that, and I don't CM at all.. ACM or UCM... I don't run anything currently, and when I did, I really only used Oracle of Dereth and Magellan2 .. mainly.
Your "suggestion" hurts more people than actually the UCMs it would stop.
and as I said before.. we have BETTER things to work on than trying to stop UCM.. like makeing sure Decal even works at all... it's horribly inefficient right now and is in Alpha still... When we get NVS done and get Beta over with and have time to work on "features" THEN maybe we can talk about trying to once again deter UCMing.
Then again... Decal Devs are not the AC police. Turbine needs to step up and do their part. There's a lot of people both Anti-UCM and Pro-UCM that would agree with me that Decal should NOT be policing AC.
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Lurcher1
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You've admitted that acming and ucming have hurt the game.
You could also admit that buffbots, autolooters, and etc have hurt the game.
Doesn't it pain you to watch people use your software to "hurt" the game? Or did you misspeak (or did I misunderstand you) when you said that.
I don't understand where you are coming from. You provide software that can be used, eventually, to violate the rules and hurt the game. Why not do everything in your power to ensure that your plugin can't be used to harm the game?
Because its not your responsibility, but Turbine's? If you like the game and see that there is harm being done to it, I would think you'd of of put some check and balances in decal a long time ago.
Or are you just using smoke and mirrors and giving us the common politically correct responses?
The current "owner" for Lifetank posts around here all the time (moderator isn't he). Why not tell the bozo to crack down on ucming? Why hasn't he? Why is he using your software to help people ucming....which in your words...hurts the game.
I better, at least pretend to be working. Be back tomorrow.
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visionoftruth
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Decal is code and has nothing to do with the COC.
Since ACM is not against the COC then there is no argument toward drakier to do anything about blah blah blah....
Envoys are allready non filterable through decal from what I have heard (don't know if its true).
What else can the decal devs do to stop UCMing?
what?
Some of you extremist Anti Macroers just put such a lame tilt to the boards sometimes..
What's funny is it is such a false expression of the community and people that actually exist in the game..
Do you play?
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Virindi-Inquisitor
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>> Envoys are allready non filterable through decal from what I have heard (don't know if its true).
That's not true. Decal is merely a layer that intercepts some messages and events and allows plugins to attach themselves to them. However, as plugins are actual programs, nothing prevents them from watching for events on their own without Decal's assistance.
Also, if I remember correctly, Decal did not specifically filter out envoy messages...instead, Turbine made envoy messages different and Decal chose not to add an additional catch to them.
What really did all this is the fact that the plugin developers voluntarily removed the alert systems from their plugins.
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Virindi --- ****Virindi Plugins FAQ**** http://www.virindi.net/wiki/index.php/Virindi_Plugins_FAQ http://www.virindi.net - Virindi Tank, Follower, Integrator, Reporter, VCS5, XPHelper, Item Tool, HUDs, etc... Decal Core Dev - http://www.decaldev.com
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Lurcher1
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Last comment of the day,
If, keyword of the day being IF, the anti-macro viewpoint "is such a false expression of the community and people that actually exist in the game", its because macroing has chased most of the non-macroers away.
Look at the #s 3 years ago, compared to today.
I have 3 uncles that left due to macroing. Most of my initial allegiance is gone. Much in part to macroing.
If 100 people bought the game today and somehow they all picked the same server.......why won't they do the shield of simulcra or Frore quests?
Because they'll find a patron that'll show them a buffbot, show them eltank/lifetank, and then the person skips the vast majority of the game. 2 months later (or quite possibly less) this new person will 275 and be whining about not enough high level content.
Decal needs to take some responsibility in the destruction of the game or at least apologize that they let (or contributed to) things get out of control.
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-paradoxlost-
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::pokes his head in::
Where do you people buy your drugs? I wish I could be so far removed from reality sometimes!
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visionoftruth
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What really did all this is the fact that the plugin developers voluntarily removed the alert systems from their plugins.
That makes sense as well..
however I am not sure it's true...
You see the same guys that made LifeTankXI have made spies with a envoy alert..
That envoy alert only works when a envoy is uncloaked.
Either it was bad programming or there is something decal doesnt allow the plugins to see.
The message boards at LifeTankXI are pretty useless to the whole situation.
I didn't know...
either way there are simple alternatives that have nothing to do with decal which I will not discuss here.
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Virindi-Inquisitor
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>> either way there are simple alternatives that have nothing to do with decal which I will not discuss here.
Why not discuss it
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Virindi --- ****Virindi Plugins FAQ**** http://www.virindi.net/wiki/index.php/Virindi_Plugins_FAQ http://www.virindi.net - Virindi Tank, Follower, Integrator, Reporter, VCS5, XPHelper, Item Tool, HUDs, etc... Decal Core Dev - http://www.decaldev.com
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quren_mt
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I'm glad that L275 macros that salvage and drives the prices down and makes sure I can always find the salvage I need when I go to the marketplace.
That is just awesome, is it not?
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Virindi-Inquisitor
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>>I'm glad that L275 macros that salvage and drives the prices down and makes sure I can always find the salvage I need when I go to the marketplace.
>>That is just awesome, is it not?
I was thinking that before. Sure saves me a lot of trouble.
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Virindi --- ****Virindi Plugins FAQ**** http://www.virindi.net/wiki/index.php/Virindi_Plugins_FAQ http://www.virindi.net - Virindi Tank, Follower, Integrator, Reporter, VCS5, XPHelper, Item Tool, HUDs, etc... Decal Core Dev - http://www.decaldev.com
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