Arch_Magi
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[MOD-Lock]
Board Performance ~300 posts
http://vnboards.ign.com/verdantine/b22650/98950559/
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Faithal-Dux
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El, don't know if you read this board, but I just wanted to thank you for all the work you have done for all of us in AC. Be Blessed in all you.
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Maddy_ACEDL
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Up to El what the future is. Everythign else is speculation.
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Arch_Magi
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Well, I just got permission from Elgar to post his PM, but I will simply post the relevant part of it:
"ELTank will stay, so long as no patch breaks it. It's extremely stable code, so it would have to be a change in decal to break it. I'll not be updating it, but I'll unlikely release the source ..."
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Drakier
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I can almost guarantee that once the New View System is implemented it will break.
Just a heads up for potential problems.
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Arch_Magi
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Aye, that is why I wanted to inform people here now. So that they can make plans for their ACMing needs.
ElTank may work for 1 month or 6 months, but eventually it will break and when it does, there will be no support for it.
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OREOSTARS
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Omg No!
I have been working on a ElTank wannabe plugin for some time now, if I keep going I might drop it out there  Lets just hope that the real ElTank works for a long time because it's great!
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Churi-ya
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Sigh.
First Sixth Sense Died. I continue to mourn.
Then Bandit Sight Died. I continue to mourn.
Thank god for old reliable - El Track.
Oh, never mind, it's dying too. Dammit.
I am VERY thankful for all the years and efforts (sometimes thankless) Elgar put in keeping the plug-in up and running, and rather selfishly wish he would reconsider continuing to support it - but - alas, this too shall pass. I wish him well on his ore mining in EVE.
I also wish I had the computer savvy to write a plug-in, but, I don't. Using AC Tool, it took 5 people, using little words, weeks to help me write a simple script (making my guy wave). I had a migrane for a month after that. Translation, for the Decal Addicted enjoyment of the game I enjoy, I need people like Elgar.
And now, well, when Turbine intentionally does something they know will borq El Tank - knowing Elgar walked away, and mark my words, once they realize he's serious about leaving, they WILL change something in game enough to borq the plug-in and good. Did I say intentionally? Oh, yeah, I did.
Then El Tank will join my list of mourned for plug-ins.
Bringing me full circle to:
Does "Find-it" do the trick for tracking items, names, etc? Can it be run at the same time as Lifetank? Are there any other tracking plug-ins out there? Any in progress? Anyone have access to the source for any of the extinct ones?
And buff bot plug-ins? Once Turbine intentionally (there's that word again) borq's El Tank, what other options are out there?
And last but not least - I have been playing this game for 6+ years - I remember the days scrapping for Jewelry, Undies, Pieces of Armor, etc. to provide those self buffs. I remember what it is like to be a good patron, help, but not pamper the vassals - and I know how to play the game as a nOOb character without relying entirely on the BOT kingdom. But I find I have no desire to go back to those days. I also believe that the majority of players out there are not interested in working for advancement either. I fear Elgar's departing is writing on the wall for an End to Decal. At the game's current state, and end to Decal would end the game. Period.
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azraelthelost
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Someone fix Bandit Sight already.
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Maddy_ACEDL
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<< Someone fix Bandit Sight already. >>
Try Find It! If it is missing somethng then suggest it.
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YerpaRox
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lifetank FTW
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MT_Gouru
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Find It!'s agreement asks that you not use it with programs capable of Unattended Combat Macroing.
Although the lifetank devs HAVE taken strides to make it less valuable unattended, it still automatically targets and kills multiple monsters without requiring user intervention, so qualifies as a program capable of UCM.
If you use Lifetank, please don't use Find It!.
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Chazcon
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I haven't seen Alinco mentioned, it has pretty good item/monster/etc ID and alert features, and not a whiff of UCM about it.
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Shivered
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Arch Magi: Aye, that is why I wanted to inform people here now. So that they can make plans for their ACMing needs.
ElTank may work for 1 month or 6 months, but eventually it will break and when it does, there will be no support for it.
Damn you people are lazy 
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Lil-Blub
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I find it a little sad he's not willing to "turn over" the project to another person/s or group for future developments.
I can say this was/is the best plugin ever made. No one has beat it yet. Not with sheer features.
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-Zalliun-
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-I find it a little sad he's not willing to "turn over" the project to another person/s or group for future developments.
sad ? i find i pathetic that people exept others to give out their hard work for free.
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Crelic_MT
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Heh..
Ah, No Comment. Free? Ah.. still no comment.
edit: The loss of ElTank will be felt all around. I know we won't be able to stand up to the legacy of ElTank, but we still want to try to bring something to the players.
Elgarl will be missed, I regret not being able to talk to him much.
-C
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Lil-Blub
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For free wouldn't be the reasoning. Heck, if he auctioned it on e-bay he would make a pretty penny.
So put your sarcastic, un-educated, bias opinion right back where it came from sir. Sorry if your only response to this post is a response to me, and not the original poster.
Edit:Because I am educated enough to check my spelling over.. after I post 
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Maddy_ACEDL
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<< I find it a little sad he's not willing to "turn over" the project to another person/s or group for future developments. >>
Well someone could root around on his server and see if they can find the source code anyplace. Then again I wouldn't be surprised if someone hasn't tried that already.
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ElgarL
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They'd never find it. The Source is only on one PC and thats not accessable from the Internet.
As to giving the source out, it won't happen. When you've spent as long as I have developing and supporting a project like ELTank you become extremely attached to it. It's my baby and it would be impossible to just hand it over to someone else.
Sure I could even make a substantial amount of cash if I sold it on EBay, but I've never been in this for the money. Those that are loyal supporters understand my reasons for quitting and for keeping ELTank private.
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Majielle
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Aye, that is why I wanted to inform people here now. So that they can make plans for their ACMing needs.
ElTank may work for 1 month or 6 months, but eventually it will break and when it does, there will be no support for it.
A QUOTE FROM ABOVE *******************************************************************
No Eltank? I will miss the Navigational tools, that helps me get from point A to point B without driving myself crazy, the self-buffing that saves me hours of boredom, the quest timer that lets me know when I can do a particular quest again, the tracking tool that help me find scarecrows, I never macroed, so that part I won't miss.... But, I will certainly miss the greatest tool ever made to enhance my AC game time, ELTANK.. when it does breakdown.
But, more than that... I wish Elgar all the best and THANK YOU, Elgar for the making AC the best gaming experience I've ever had with the assistance of Eltank.
Catriana/Majielle
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Majielle
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"Damn you people are lazy " A QUOTE FROM ABOVE!
**********************************************************************
What a short sighted response! I'm not lazy at all and I've used Eltank forever.... it enhances my game play by taking out the tedious tasks of AC that would have surely caused me to leave the game by now.
How self-righteous of you to condemn a whole group of people with your blanket statement.
Unless you know each individual who uses Eltank, how they use it, etc.. you can't possibly know that all users are lazy. 
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Crelic_MT
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Majielle:
I know it stinks to loose this single plugin with all these features but there is still hope!
Find It! or Spies it great for tracking things
GoArrow is wonderful for navigation, it even gives you an arrow on screen to point you in the right direction
Quest Timer keeps track of your quests *Very* well
But I can't think of a buffing tool.. Alinco maybe?
I'd probably die without any of the abovementioned. Granted I don't keep ALL of them loaded all the time but they all work great in their own little way.
-C
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Ftuoil_XelRasH
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ElgarL,
First, thanks for all the years of support and fun
As I see it, ELtank was the best plug-in ever created.
I have used ELTank since it's first public BETA and will continue to untill the day it breaks.
I never had any use for it's retarded step child LT.
Although, you and I have had some serious disagreements in the past, I have long since gained great respect for both you and ELtank. Hell, I was the first person to ever be "hard-coded" into ELtank as a Ban long before the web authorization was ever put in and that was
just becuase I pissed you off about not being able to turn of elcoms
I myself learned SO MUCH from your source that I would of never had gotten as fas as I did with my private and public plug-ins. It was the conerstone of my Decal education.
I wish you all of luck in the future and hope we may run into each other again someday in cyberspace. If you ever change your mind about passing the project on, I would be happy to
secure that spot website and all. I know the older code inside and out. 
CHEERS!
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Lord_Anton
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"No Eltank? I will miss the Navigational tools, that helps me get from point A to point B without driving myself crazy, the self-buffing that saves me hours of boredom, the quest timer that lets me know when I can do a particular quest again, the tracking tool that help me find scarecrows, I never macroed, so that part I won't miss.... But, I will certainly miss the greatest tool ever made to enhance my AC game time, ELTANK.. when it does breakdown.
Catriana/Majielle"
-Majielle
well, some other plugins to use if el tank stops working later are
Go Arrow - route finding (super awesome)
BuffMe (easy to use for buffs)
Find it I suppose.. never used it, Spies is great also (tracking)
Quest timer for quests
I guess what Crelic said, but just backing it up
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Churi-ya
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Ok - is there a self buffing program that would meet the user agreement of Find It? Even were I to use it with Lifetank - Lifetank is "capable" of UCM, therefore even were I to use it to solely buff, that would be a violation of the....
Wait a minute....
Whatever DID happen to one of the main motivations of there being a Decal in the first place? Giving players an opportunity to enjoy our game as they see fit.
Never mind, one of the key reasons Elgar's had it in the first place.
It's not that anymore, is it?
Sorry, I digress - also - are there any other buff bot programs out there that will allow the baning of another persons armor reliably?
Might as well go cold turkey now, rather than find myself suddenly unable to provide bots at the mansion or hunt the way I have come to enjoy. Once Turbine fully realizes Elgar's history they'll intionally borq something, ensuring El Tank breaks as soon as possible. Do I know this? Nope. But, I am a firm, staunch advocate of Murphy's Law.
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Advanced Dungeons and Dragons - DM for 28 Years!
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If you want someone to be politically correct, I suggest not engaging me in conversation.
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Crelic_MT
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Actually, Turbine cannot directly break a plugin at all. The plugins are have to be loaded via Decal. Monthly patches break Decal because recompiling the AC Client changes memory locations that plugins use to work. Now, Decal making a major change to it's code, such as implementing better DirectX code or making something more efficient would easily break a plugin... They wouldn't/won't do this on purpose just to *break* Eltank, but something will be done I'm sure for the advancement and improvement of the plugin. That is why he stated "1 month or 6 months", because even Decal doesn't know when the next major release will be.
-C
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Migy_AC
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Crelic spreads teh word.
Furthermore...
IF the Decal Devs wanted to break ElTank, they could have a long time ago. After all its their project, and choice.
Elgar isn't required to give up his source or pass his project on, its his project , and choice.
If Gouru doesn't want *It run with UCM capable plugins, again its his project, and choice.
I'm not saying I agree with any particilar decisions by these or other decal and or plugin coders, but since it is their work , I'll have to learn to live with it.
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-XiahouDun-
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Hell of a plug-in. I know I haven't played AC without it, I suppose for the last 4 years I guess. As for you leaving sir, best of wishes to you and good luck with Eve Online. 
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Lil-Blub
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C'relic... Wasn't even talking to you.
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MT_Gouru
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Churi-ya posted:
Ok - is there a self buffing program that would meet the user agreement of Find It? Even were I to use it with Lifetank - Lifetank is "capable" of UCM, therefore even were I to use it to solely buff, that would be a violation of the....
Wait a minute....
Whatever DID happen to one of the main motivations of there being a Decal in the first place? Giving players an opportunity to enjoy our game as they see fit.
Never mind, one of the key reasons Elgar's had it in the first place.
It's not that anymore, is it?
Sorry, I digress - also - are there any other buff bot programs out there that will allow the baning of another persons armor reliably?
Might as well go cold turkey now, rather than find myself suddenly unable to provide bots at the mansion or hunt the way I have come to enjoy. Once Turbine fully realizes Elgar's history they'll intionally borq something, ensuring El Tank breaks as soon as possible. Do I know this? Nope. But, I am a firm, staunch advocate of Murphy's Law.
Einstein It! does self buffing, and so does Buff Me and Castaway. Any of these programs are valid for use with any of the It! programs. Castaway bane's other peoples armor using the same techniques that El Tank did, so that works for buff bots.
To my knowledge, allowing people to play AC as they see fit was NEVER a major motivation for Decal development. Not even a minor motivation. The major motivation is to provide a development base that developers can use to create plugins that improve user interface and to provide some core functionality (i.e. trade bots) that do not exist in the base AC client. Unfortunately, the same functionality that allows many of the 'good' uses, also allows combat macroing, which virtually all decal devs are against. We have NEVER had a 'Turbine be damned, we're gonna play the way we want' mindset.
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Maddy_ACEDL
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<< Whatever DID happen to one of the main motivations of there being a Decal in the first place? Giving players an opportunity to enjoy our game as they see fit. >>
First, it isn't out game it is Turbine's game. Second I don't recall that ever being one of the main motivations of Decal, especially if you are breaking the CoC.
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Niarlan
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Along with the naming of plugins for functions....what does UST'ing these days besides EL-Tank...
/e wish's that UST would come back....
Nia
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Maddy_ACEDL
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Find It! can ust for you via DHS. Assign a hotkey and easy to ust things you have picked up.
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muneman
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I have a few suggestions.
1. Don't change Decal and Eltank wont break. I don't see the need for updating decal when it works just fine.
2. ElgarL, you said Eltank is your baby so wouldnt you want everyone to continue to enjoy it's use. If Eltank broke, I know your capable of fixing it very quickly. Seems if it breaks you wont fix it out of principal, and I don't understand that.
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Crelic_MT
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Honestly, Decal doesn't work "fine". There is ALWAYS room for improvement 
If I remember right, they are still using a "hacked up" DirectX6 code to work with the new AC Client that uses DirectX9. This tends to be very inefficient. Also, I'm sure you remember memory leaks, slowdowns, crashes, and so on.
Decal is a great program, but it does need work and they're trying their best to make it better. Unforchunately those changes to make things more efficient and compatible will more than likely break ElTank. I'm 90% sure it'll break Lifetank good, so god knows what it'll do to EL.
-C
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Ashake
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I would say it could be remotely possible that Elgar could be watching reactions to his announcement as well, and making a final decision in the near future. The reason I mention this is there is NO mention of this at all on the Tank forums - and I'd certainly think a "final" announcement of this nature would surely be posted there of ALL places!
CR, with all due respect, it would be great if you could incorporate more user friendly interfaces into LT if that is what we'll be left with for a buffing/"finding" type of plug. I'm sorry, but it is not the most user friendly in the world to set up - which is why many don't care for it!
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Churi-ya
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Thank you Gouru -
Muchos appreciated.
And to restate, perhaps more clearly at least part of what I meant.
Turbine has been looking for ways to eliminate UCM in AC for a long, long time now. Many of the recent Turbine/Decal Dev co-operative changes to some of the plug-ins, the sudden departure of one of the Elder Gods of Plug-In development, the addition to the game of Ninjas VERY capable of killing a dumb macro - etc, are the most extreme measures I have seen in my 6+ years of playing this game - towards this goal.
Too late.
In my humble and relatively unimportant in the overall AC Scheme of Things opinion, extreme actions such as these should have been taken when UCM "ruined" the game years ago, not now, in it's humble twilight.
But - who knows, maybe this will get a few people to come back, seeing how Turbine, once and for all, seems serious enough to do whatever it takes to stop UCM.
And - along those lines - as to Borqing El Tank. Please follow my logic here. There are QUITE a few UCM enthusiasts that rely on El Tank for their CoC breaking needs. Quite a few who when they go to play an archer or melee don't like how Lifetank works for them. This same gourp, however large or small they are will continue to utilize El Tank as they see fit until such time it no longer functions. Therefore, logic dictates that something needs to be changed on a fundamental level, or even something simple, who knows (I certainly don't) - a change done BY Turbine - which would require Elgar to go in and fix something on El Tank to make it work again. Since Elgar will not be doing this, Turbine will effectively eliminate a percentage, however large or small of those who utilize El Tank for UCM. If I were serious about killing UCM, and were Turbine, and knew the developer of one of the main plug-ins which will allow it has left, then, I wouldn't hesitate to invest in the time required to tweak something just enough during the next monthly prop to kill it off. That's what I meant to say.
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ffxiplaya
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Is there a plugin that will replace the buffbot feature? I have a bot setup for a small monarchy of mine, and it helps for my friends to just get buffs from the bot when I'm at work during the day. Most of the plugins I've seen require you to be there to click a button to buff someone. Any suggestions? Thanks.
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Al-Egre_Arn
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First off, I would like to thank ElgarL for all his hard work. I've been using Tank for a long time to self-buff. Ever since ToD and the discontinued work on certain plug-ins, I've also been using it for the Navigation, Loot Tracking, Monster Tracking, and Buffbot capabilities. Now I guess, I'll have to find multiple plug-ins to replace his great plug-in.
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vellus
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Personally I will miss the auto-follow and healing/buffing of fellowship mates. I used it often while dual logged.
Is/are there any plugins that can do this separately?
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MT_Gouru
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ffxiplaya posted:
Is there a plugin that will replace the buffbot feature? I have a bot setup for a small monarchy of mine, and it helps for my friends to just get buffs from the bot when I'm at work during the day. Most of the plugins I've seen require you to be there to click a button to buff someone. Any suggestions? Thanks.
Castaway is probly the most 'complete' buffbot program available right now. Einstein It! has some bot capabilities, but is not as robust as Castaway.
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ffxiplaya
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^Ah thank you sir, you'd mentioned castaway before, wasn't sure if it's an actual bot program or not. I'll definately check it out, thanks.
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Maddy_ACEDL
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<< Is there a plugin that will replace the buffbot feature? >>
Castaway: http://www.buwahaha.com/Castaway/viewtopic.php?t=1214
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Majielle
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I only wish Elgar the best. All good things eventually change, or come to an end. That's life.
I will miss Eltank when it is gone, as I wouldn't be playing AC without it. I truly enjoyed the fact that Eltank (with Decal) were the ONLY add ons I needed to play AC. Eltank did it ALL.
Not sure I would enjoy AC without Eltank. Not sure I would still pay for two accounts if I didn't enjoy the game any more.
Time will tell!
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LingMei
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Ashake posted:
he reason I mention this is there is NO mention of this at all on the Tank forums - and I'd certainly think a "final" announcement of this nature would surely be posted there of ALL places!
Actually, there has been a post there since the day after he decided to quit AC (last Thursday). It is quite long, very explanatory, and gives a lot of reasons why he is chosing to do what he is doing. It isn't hard to find.
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Arch_Magi
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I too would like to thank Elgar for his wonderful program. I used it for all my ACMing needs, as well as my buff bot that services most of Harvestgain.
Other programs may fill it's void, but they will not be the same.
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muneman
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If Eltank does break because of the New Decal it would be nice if the Decal Devs gave the option of upgrading to the new Decal. Also keep the current version of Decal available for download so others who want to use Eltank can. If this would cause a memloc issue then of course this suggestion would not make sense. However, if the old version can exsist with the new version of decal then let the fans keep there Eltank
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Digero
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muneman posted:
If Eltank does break because of the New Decal it would be nice if the Decal Devs gave the option of upgrading to the new Decal. Also keep the current version of Decal available for download so others who want to use Eltank can. If this would cause a memloc issue then of course this suggestion would not make sense. However, if the old version can exsist with the new version of decal then let the fans keep there Eltank
While it probably won't be a forced upgrade, I find it very unlikely that the Decal devs will continue to support the old version of Decal once it's upgraded to the New View System. That would mean that if something changes in AC that breaks the old Decal, then that's it. Also, I'd assume most plugin developers who release new versions of their plugins for the New View System will stop supporting the older versions of their plugins; though I guess that wouldn't be an issue if you only use ElTank.
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[LotRO] Digero (Guardian), Digrim (Burglar), Dignite (LM), Azrea (Hunter) - Landroval [AC] Digero, Lyera, Draxxe - Leafcull (Retired) [CoH] Devil's Zealot, Scinta, Izzard - Guardian (Retired) Digero's AC Decal Plugins: http://decal.acasylum.com
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Lil-Blub
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Such a fine line of what is the real issue on this thread.
I thought this was about Eltank. He stated he wouldn't release the source... SOL imho.
MOVING ON...
Sure, someone would/could add the same features... But why?
It's now at 6 years and people who develop are JUST NOW figuring out that some of what has happened with decal/ucm/ac should be fixed?
Minute late and a dollar short?
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Migy_AC
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" I would say it could be remotely possible that Elgar could be watching reactions to his announcement as well, and making a final decision in the near future. The reason I mention this is there is NO mention of this at all on the Tank forums - and I'd certainly think a "final" announcement of this nature would surely be posted there of ALL places!
CR, with all due respect, it would be great if you could incorporate more user friendly interfaces into LT if that is what we'll be left with for a buffing/"finding" type of plug. I'm sorry, but it is not the most user friendly in the world to set up - which is why many don't care for it! "
http://eltank.homedns.org/messageboard/viewtopic.php?t=6660
Posted the 14th.
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bearer1
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I would be willing to bet this is a temporary situation.
In fact, I am going to save this post and ask the mods to put it up as a legacy post in the future.
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Duri_Gallant
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I respect Elgar and think he is an excellent programmer. He has always seemed to me respectful and intelligent. I wish him the best. I will not however be sorry to see El Tank go. Yes, it is an excellent program and one of the best written. The only problem with it is that it makes it far too easy for people to UCM. I am predicting that if El Tank goes that the UCM's will be cut in half. This could result in a lot of people leaving AC but personally that does not bother me. I believe the quality of the game will increase as a result of it.
I do not know Elgars motives but I would not be surprised if he thinks that as a result of his leaving that the population will go way down and this will hurt Turbine - thus proving his statement that he believes himself one of the reasons that this game has lasted so long.
I am curious to see what will happen.
~Duri
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Majielle
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"I am predicting that if El Tank goes that the UCM's will be cut in half."
*****************************************************************************
I am predicting that if Eltank goes that the AC population will be cut by 85%, thus leading to the end of AC.
Eltank was and is an excellent enhancement tool for Asheron's Call. An all-in-one program. I have used it for years (and before you ask, I have NEVER UCM'd or even CM'd) and I wouldn't still be playing AC had I not had Eltank.
People who view it as evil because some decide to ABUSE the tool to UCM, are very short sighted individuals. Every good thing in life has it's ability to be abused. Shall we do away with all of them? Where do we start?
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Drakier
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Majielle: there were many plugins which did everything that ELTank did (minus the combat macroing) better than ELTank.
So the statement that you used ELTank for everything BUT the Combat Macro seems wierd.. considering the alternatives.
The only reason I know of people using ELTank specifically is for the combat features.
Now those plugins aren't all around anymore, so trying to find alternatives for some of the components may be difficult for now.. but in the past, there were many better options.
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ElgarL
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I believe most used it because of it's stability. On and off World filter and Character stats filter have had crashing issues, or bugs that were left unfixed for long periods. This resulted in not only Crashes, but unstable plugins and extended periods of plugins not working.
ELTank doesn't use any of those filters and allowed players to turn them all off, thereby creatign a more stable system. It was generally the first plugin to be up and running if a patch broke something, and the last to break because of some bug or change.
Add to that the fact it did everything, and it became the choice for many as the superior option.
Sure it didn't do some things in as much detail as more dedicated plugins (like Banditsight), but most players didn't want overly complex plugins. They wanted to remove the more mundane tasks via the simplest method.
Thats how I undertand it. It's what I wrote it for, and it seemed to catch on.
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Arch_Magi
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Drakier posted:
So the statement that you used ELTank for everything BUT the Combat Macro seems wierd.. considering the alternatives.
What alternatives?
I've been messing around with Alinco and the other plugins out there, and I have yet to either find, or figure out how to make them work as good as ElTank.
With Alinco, it seems that even after I set up all the "look for these items", when I open up a corpse I have to "manually loot" them. Now I did find that you can use DHC so I can set up F2, F3, and F4 to loot, load UST, then UST.
But unless I'm missing it, I don't see where you can "auto loot", much less "auto loot" and UST.
Further, I don't see an "auto heal" function in Alinco either.
Sure LifeTank does that, but IMO, LifeTank stinks for ACMing. There is no "buff only" that you can kick on when you want to run past a bunch of monster, and yet have it keep you healed. You have to "pause" it (Don't dare turn it off, because if you do, it will rebuff you fully, regardless of the time left on your buffs).
Now I do like Alincos USTing better than ElTank, but by and large, ElTank was a nice "one stop" program that you could do everything with. It was the ULTIMATE ACM tool, and although you could use it for UCMing (with another "helper program") it sucked for that purpose (LifeTank is much better for UCMing ... or "run on a second PC and just watch for +Envoys on the other monitor from time to time).
Sorry, but I just do see a combination of, much less a single one, programs that beat ElTank for "easy, at the keyboard, looting, usting, killing, ACMing".
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Chazcon
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Duri_Gallant posted:
This could result in a lot of people leaving AC but personally that does not bother me.
It will bother the hell out of you when they shut down AC because there isn't enough of a player base to support the game...idiot.
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Duri_Gallant
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Chazcon,
I hope this means you will be leaving.
Like I said if people like you leave then I believe the quality of the game will improve. Even if the game does end (which I doubt it will) at least it will be more enjoyable until then.
~Duri
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Chazcon
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People like me? I thought you were talking about UCM'rs.
So I guess you can lump anyone who catches you making a fool of yourself into the 'people who should leave' category.
Have fun playing with yourself.
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Chazcon - Aluvian swordsman
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Ru tells you, "CHAZ!"
Simply Red tells you, "I am SO not recovering your body!"
-- Good times.
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KonorLc
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I use ElTank but it's loss with not cause me to quit the game. 85% of the people will leave AC? What a joke. I doubt if 85% of the population uses Eltank.
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Drakier
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Arch_Magi: once again, using my quotes out of context...
I said there WERE alternatives.. back in the day.. that's what I was discussing as to the point they were trying to make.. back before ToD, using ELTank for everything BUT the Combat Macro freature didn't make sense considering there were better plugins for those parts. That's what I was saying..
SINCE ToD, there haven't been a lot of new replacements developed, and so I understand people using ELTank for those components.. considering the lack of robust plugins these days for that sorta stuff. There are alternatives still, but many of them are just not quite up to par yet. Give it time. But again... before attempting to start arguments or bait, why not read the quote in context and realize that I WAS talking about the past pre-ToD when there were many alternatives to pretty much all of the ELTank features.
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Losado
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Why even start to compare Alinco with El Tank?
On the download page is not much text but it says that only buffing is automatic for the rest you need hot keys.
But I am not surprised that xTank users missed it as they probably thought it was a disclaimer
to not macro in high traffic area's.
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Chazcon
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You can separate AC players into several groups and sub-groups in regards to UCM:
1)The UCM crowd - people who macro to gain advantage over others in wealth and / or level (skills), manipulate the game just to give themselves a feeling of power or superiority (control or grandiosity syndrome), or do it because they think it's cool (taking the game to a new level, or extending the life of the game for themselves). Many UCM people justify their actions in their own mind by referring to revolutionary slogans such as "Live Free or Die!". Their take is that they are free to play the game any way they wish. This is the outspoken sub-group of the UCM crowd. I'm sure many old-school macroers read their posts with chagrin - macroing was originally a covert operation.
UCM'rs can be broken into these sub groups I think:
a) There are the folks who are skilled and/or talented enough to write their own combat macros. You rarely hear a peep from these people. They do their thing, stay out of sight, and off the boards (Gol's recent 'come clean' a notable exception).
b) There is a large group of people who will use a 3rd party macro program written by someone else, but who are 'stuck', so to speak, if no such program exists. The power trip of macroing IS the game to these folks, most think they would not play if they couldn't macro.
c) A group that doesn't get talked about much in this polarized debate are the casual macroers. The tee-totalers. They will macro up a noob toon to 50, or try out macroing here and there to see what it’s all about, but really aren't into it that much, or feel like they are breaking the rules and stop.
2) The Anti-UCM crowd - people who love the game in it's original form and would take it back to 1999 if they could (the purists), and the folks who never break any rules in-game or in real life and want only to push their agenda on the rest of the world (the fanatical zealots). The zealots are the most outspoken group of the Anti crowd. Their mind set, dialog, and actions are very much like religious zealots in real life. They cannot comprehend that there is another point of view, and thus label anything different than their way of thinking as 'bad' or even 'evil'. It's nearly impossible to reason or debate with this crowd, so unbending are they in their adherence to their convictions. The purists are a more reasonable crowd and one can understand their feelings about the matter.
There are sub groups in the Anti crowd as well:
a) People who do not have the technical ability to install and run 3rd party applications. To any of us who consider ourselves 'gamers' or 'powerusers' this seems ridiculous. But many fit into this category. They needed help just installing and running AC itself in the beginning. Many in this group run a hardware configuration that is at or below the minimum requirements as well. And so human nature being what it is, people who CAN'T UCM will gravitate towards one of the categories of Anti-UCM’rs in order to cover their technical or computer knowledge shortcomings.
b) Folks who do have the tech expertise to UCM but choose not to for reasons mentioned above.
3) And lastly let's not forget the group that flies below the radar of the whole UCM/Anti debate and really doesn't even understand it, and is still just trying to learn the game (the noobs).
-----signature-----
Chazcon - Aluvian swordsman
You say, "FOR THE VITAE!"
Ru tells you, "CHAZ!"
Simply Red tells you, "I am SO not recovering your body!"
-- Good times.
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Arch_Magi
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Losado posted:
Why even start to compare Alinco with El Tank?
On the download page is not much text but it says that only buffing is automatic for the rest you need hot keys.
But I am not surprised that xTank users missed it as they probably thought it was a disclaimer
to not macro in high traffic area's.
Yeah, I read it, I understand it, and said "But unless I'm missing it, I don't see where you can "auto loot", much less "auto loot" and UST." ... I guess I didn't miss anything. Every time I ask people for an "ElTank alternative", they say "Alinco". Well guess what, it isn't.
I don't need a combat macro program, but I would like something that is "like ElTank in every other respect other than automatically targetting and attacking monsters", I expect it to get just as I asked ... "like ElTank".
That is the bottom line ... There isn't anything out there like ElTank, and it is because of that, that it will be missed.
[Edit]
As for the last comment about "xTank users" and "not macro in high traffic areas", that has ZERO to do with that I am talking about, or looking for in a macro. I want something that I can fill out a form (like Alinco) to look for x, y, and z, and instead of just "alerting me" as to if it exists, it would pick the dang thing up and put it in my pack. That has NOTHING to do with UCMs, in or out of a high traffic area.
Thank you for the Red Herring, but I already ate lunch.
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ffxiplaya
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There sure is a lot of hostility when it comes to talking about UCM and Eltank. I'm one of the Eltank users that never UCM'ed or even ACM'ed. I did (and do) in fact use Eltank because it's a complete package almost. At least having it, I only have to install say, Spies for pk detection. I surely will miss Eltank, since right now I'm starting to look for alternatives and trying them out in anticipation that Eltank will stop working one day. Thus far, it's really been a pain getting smaller individual addons setup and working right. Some of them have great features, but really really crappy interface for users. Some have great interface, but lacks important features, etc, etc.. I think people do use Eltank because it's pretty user friendly and has a lot of important features.
I thought most UCM'ers talk about using Lifetank these days? At least it's what I was told to install when someone tried to get me to macro. I don't understand the hate for Eltank or people applauding Elgarl leaving AC. It kinda sucks. I really don't care how people choose to play this game, but really, AC does not neeed to be more complicated than it is right now. You aren't gonna get more players playing or staying this way.
I guess while the players are throwing tomatoes at each other, we are all forgetting the company that's sitting and collecting our money, watching this show. Turbine really needs to step up and implement some of the features to get rid of the need for those plugins. The lack of response from Turbine when people are discussing things is very disappointing.
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Duri_Gallant
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"People like me? I thought you were talking about UCM'rs.
So I guess you can lump anyone who catches you making a fool of yourself into the 'people who should leave' category.
Have fun playing with yourself." - Chazcon
Chazcon,
Are you 10 years old? Do you usually call people names that disagree with you? Do you have a maturity problem?
I guessed that you were a UCM'r based on your heated response to the UCM issue. If not I apologize.
I agree with some of your categories though I do not think eliminating UCM'rs will destroy the game. I could be wrong but for myself it would bring more enjoyment if they were eliminated. Also, I think there has been a lot of positive response from players about new game dynamics such as the Ninja's that make things like UCM'ing more difficult.
Additionally, as a result of the recent changes I have had a long time friend come back to the game after a year and I have also attained a new vassal this month who is another returning player.
~Duri
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QueZart
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GoodLuck, and GoodDay Elgarl, you and your Tank Will be severely Missed.
There is NO replacement(s) for ElTank, the Only Self Buffer I've ever found that was on Par was Infinity, IMO Infinity in this Respect was better then Tank, Since Throne came out there has been No self buffer that even comes close to Tanks abilities and ease of use. Haven't tried it in a couple months but BuffMe never worked For my Main who Has No Life and use the Stien for all his mana recoup needs. And I din like how it handled buffing my mage much either. Me = spoiled by Infinity
With a combination of Alinco and AgentZ you can replace the filtering and reporting capabilities, but it takes both of them to do it.
Find It! does an OK Job and no disrespect Gouru but it still lacks when compared to ElTrack, since Throne plugin quality has really declined.
I've always prefered Quest Timer to the one Built into Tank QT has No equal
I've never tried GoArrow but its one of Dig's so it prolly works really well, ElNav almost always seemed to crash me so never used it much either, I'm good at navigation tho and use Notes in QT for quick access to cords
As for Auto UST, Loot, Heal wont find em outside xTank, auto heal actually annoyed me sometimes, get me killed when I shoudla been running not stoping to heal.
I haven't played AC In Months but I alwasy end up going back after awhile, and Will Miss Tank when I get back.
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kinslayer271
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The reason people are bitter towards him is the public release of a fuctional combat macro. That truly back in the day was the best. Prior to that all people had were privite plugins or scripts. Whitch only a select few had. Once El tank came out I remember telling some buddies that this is going to be the straw that breaks the cameles back. Guess what it did. So he has people bitter on both sides of the fence. He blew it for the small group of UCMers. Had El tank or any combat plugin not been released UCMing would still be around.
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Cheapo-SC
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Why would ElGarl not release the source code?
Sounds like a wiener kind of move, but you know, it would benefit the rest of the AC community and frankly, it's not a commercial product and you don't make any money from it so what do you have to lose? Ego?
Cheapo-SC.
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ElgarL
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Have you ever thought it's because I don't want it to help whiney little ungrateful asses like you? I code, provide and support a plugin for 5+ years. I host a website and provide daily technical support for all that time, paying the costs out of my own pocket. Heck I even pay for and provide the hardware that hosts the forums.
I do all this for no profit and you come here whining because you think I owe you something? Do you also whine like that when your parents don't let you stay out late? You seriously need to stop thinking of yourself for once. It will come back and bite you on your ass one day.
The real reason I don't release the source code is because I no longer support Turbine. Turbine have been taking increased subscription fee's for a long time now, without providing a reasonable level of support and content. We have less devs and less support than we did before the price hike. We pay more, but get less in return. If I keep maintaining ELTank or release the source then I'm still supporting Turbine.
They can't provide a decent sized Dev team or even reliable Envoys, I'll not support them when all they are doing is milking this game and ignoring their playerbase.
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Ashake
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ElgarL posted:
The real reason I don't release the source code is because I no longer support Turbine. Turbine have been taking increased subscription fee's for a long time now, without providing a reasonable level of support and content. We have less devs and less support than we did before the price hike. We pay more, but get less in return. If I keep maintaining ELTank or release the source then I'm still supporting Turbine.
They can't provide a decent sized Dev team or even reliable Envoys, I'll not support them when all they are doing is milking this game and ignoring their playerbase.
Elgar ... you are not supporting Turbine - hell you won't even hurt THEM. Want to know who you are supporting and helping? I'll tell you ...
It's people like me ... yeah, ME! Over 10 years ago, I saw the first signs of carpal tunnel syndrome. Since then, I've had to give up damn near EVERYTHING I really enjoyed doing because of my wrists. Now I'll be honest, and admit to all here, I was one of those ElTank detractors for a very long time. I toughed it out, and managed to get my mages (yeah, I have a couple) over 126. It took me forever, because unlike my melee characters, there was no "auto smack" to use ... every spell had to be cast by hand. Yes, I used Infinity (and I mourn its loss, but understand why Mesaten is not trying to rewrite it for ToD) to buff. Yes, I used Bandit Sight (I miss it too) to help me find the things I wanted to grab. And I used Oracle of Dereth to help me find coords quickly, or plot routes for allegiance members. But the day to day "wear and tear" of playing my mage was rapidly catching up with me ... A friend told me (for like the 100th time) get ElTank - it will help cut down on the pain ... just TRY IT! I finally did.
Elgar, you have helped me be able to enjoy playing my mages again. Yes, I've allowed the program to help me with combat at times, usually in a dungeon. To be honest, it fascinates me how well it works to not only select the critter, but then dispatch it. Can I do things faster? Yes, and that is why I don't use it out of a dungeon environment. Have I ever UCM'd? Nope, I've worked too hard to develop my characters to chance losing them in that fashion (and with my HORRIBLE luck, I would!!! ). Please don't be so shortsighted as to think you are supporting Turbine by continuing to maintain ElTank. In the end, the ONLY ones who will truly be hurt by its loss will be folks like me (and there are MANY) who love to play this game, but need a little something to help us out. Please reconsider ... and continue to "fix" ElTank for those of us who truly are helped by its existence. We may not always say it, but we ARE grateful for it, and we DO appreciate your efforts.
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ElgarL
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Thank you Ashake, I do understand what your saying, but if I were to carry on support of ELTank I'd have to make commitments I couldn't guarantee I could keep. For one I (soon) won't have an account to test any fixes on. To borrow one would be to break the CoC of AC, which I'm not willing to do. I never have and never will break the rules of the game. The only alternative is to resubscribe an account. That would be paying Turbine, and that's something I'm unwilling to do. In my opinion They no longer deserve the loyalty or the subscription fees.
If I were to give the code to someone else I again would be supporting Turbine in that I'm helping them retaining players. I'm providing functionality which is extra to the raw client. I'm aiding them in keeping players subscribed. It might be different if they made some effort to show support for the game themselves. If they even made the simplest of attempts to provide a quality service and patch updates. AC is being supported by those loyal Turbine employees who I feel have also been abandoned by those in charge.
There are capable coders out there who could take over the upkeep and maintenance of ELTank, although due to it's complexity and size it would take them a while to learn the code. I'm however uncertain as to their moral fibre to be able to keep it on the path that it's been on for the last few years. It's been difficult for myself at times as ELTank is the most public of macro plugins there is. It draws a lot of flak and attention. You have to have an extremely thick skin to be able to carry on your set path without being swayed by either side.
As you have seen macroing can be a problem. It's a very controversial issue and if such code were left in the wrong hands it could do a great deal of harm. AC is finally getting a bit of advertising. It has a chance of climbing back out of the rut it's currently in. If ELTank were handed to the wrong person it has the possibility of destroying what good might come of this advertising.
There is no way for me to know who is or isn't the right person. I can only trust myself, so can't in all honesty hand it over without risking it being the downfall of AC.
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Crelic_MT
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I used Eltank for ALONG time, sometimes I still do. I used it in the same manner as Ash does, but not for the same reason. It helped keep me alive in places where dialup lag would otherwise had killed me.
I understand completely why you would not want to release the source code. I can't imagine the time and effort you've put into it, BY YOURSELF, to make it what it has become today. I've gotten a small taste of it lately with Lifetank and trying to bring it around the corner to be more CoC-Friendly, which has made a few people unhappy but nothing unexpected... There are STILL parts of that source code I read from time to time trying to understand what it's doing exactly. Doing all that with Eltank solo from scratch... I've always been impressed with your work. I wish I could do some of the things you've done with tank, but I'm still learning, hopefully one day I'll figure it out =) I'd love to see the source just to read it, to see if I can understand how you did certain things.
I hope you fair well in your journey. I have always had respect for your work and support to the community, and still support your decision today. 
-C
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Chazcon
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Please, ElgarL, do NOT release the source code to El Tank to anyone. Better for it to die with dignity than to be hacked up by someone else - anyone else. I've seen lesser plugins turned into utter crap after being taken over by another dev. I can't imagine what a mess El Tank would become with someone else's grubby fingers under the hood.
If someone wants to write an El Tank replacement, there is nothing in the world to stop them. In order to duplicate El Tanks functionality, your skills would have to be of a high enough level that you wouldn't NEED the El Tank source anyway.
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Ru tells you, "CHAZ!"
Simply Red tells you, "I am SO not recovering your body!"
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Ashake
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OK ... I can help solve one problem - I was routinely handed Mesaten's Infinity to try to break it, and I've managed to ferret out bugs for Zegeger as well. I'd be delighted to test Tank for you - lord knows I have enough accounts and different types of characters to find any problems and report back what and how they occurred. I'm also very conversant with my system, software and Decal (although not a programmer, I can usually figure out how to get things up and running for those in my allegiance).
As Zeg and Mes could both tell you, I'm quite thorough in my testing procedures, and I do my level BEST to get the plugin to crack before it gets out to the rest of the AC community. I also am very thorough in my reports as to exactly how and what was going on when the error occurred.
Please???
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ElgarL
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Ashake, you misunderstand me when I'm talking about not being able to test the fixes. Many code fixes can be done blind and then checked by remote testers, but major changes require an active acocunt to test the code as you write it. Often what you think will work doesn't. It may take half a dozen versions until you get it perfect.
With the up coming GUI changes in decal it will require a major rewrite to a lot of code. That's something that can't be done without an active account to test each change as you do it.
Thank you for the kind offer, but it's not remote testers that would be required .
BTW: I suffer from RSI too. Both arms from elbow to wrist and the outer three fingers.
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Ashake
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Ahh ... ok ... well then, here is the next question. Since you, too, have this issue - sounds like a bit worse than I, would it be totally inconceivable for you to sub for one time to fix it, then unsub - NOT for Turbine, but for all those players like you and myself who DO suffer this problem? I know about personal ethics and convictions - but Elgar, sometimes if we HAVE within us the knowledge and power to help others - we need to bend a bit in the wind to help them. The minor bending we do will be repaid many times over - as a monarch you know this. We both know many rely on the things Tank can do to help them truly enjoy their play - is there no way to make this work in your mind? One thing I've learned by being a monarch here ... sometimes the things I think are dear to me can be allowed to shift a bit if it means others will be helped for the shift.
I do understand your statements and feelings regarding what Turbine has or has not done - however, I do not necessarily agree with all of it. I do feel that they are committed to the game, and I do think they're trying to be responsive to the players. AC is their "flagship" game - they will not willingly let it go down for the count. Do not look upon this as supporting Turbine ... look on it as supporting those who have come to look to Tank to help them play something they love.
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Chazcon
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Ashake - give it a rest, will ya? Leave the guy alone.
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Chazcon - Aluvian swordsman
You say, "FOR THE VITAE!"
Ru tells you, "CHAZ!"
Simply Red tells you, "I am SO not recovering your body!"
-- Good times.
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Ashake
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Chaz, no offense intended, but bug out ... there are a great many people who use this plugin for reasons like ours, and would like to see it live on. Elgar and I are having a civil discussion regarding the plugin ... and many out there don't realize what is involved in bringing one to "life" for use. Even if in the end Elgar still chooses not to continue it, those of us who would like to see it continue will understand WHAT is involved more ... and perhaps appreciate those who take their time to make these plugins for our use.
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Maddy_ACEDL
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And you can't/won't use Lifetank beacause...?
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Ashake
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I won't use it because:
1. The user interface is unfriendly
2. It's buffing routines are ... to put it mildly, terrible
3. It's ability to be a viable tool within a fellow (i.e., helping heal and such) is nonexistent
There are other reasons, but those are the main ones that immediately pop up. Yes, CR is very much aware of my "input" I'm not the only person who has made these comments either. I'm sure as LTx develops, it will be a much better product for the non-ucm set ... but remember WHY it originally was designed - to be a tool for people who had no intention of being there unless absolutely necessary. CR and the team are working hard to make it more viable ... but until it is, I cannot give it my "nod" and do not care to use it.
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Crelic_MT
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And we still are working on it to bring it up "to the times".
Give the state the code was in when we got it, it's been quite a pain. Most of the problem that goes with fixing it, is *reading* the code to figure out how it works, and what order it operates in. It gets quite difficult reading someone else's work, especially within the complexity of this program.
But, god knows we won't be able to fill Elgarl's shoes, nor will we try to. Lifetank != Eltank and we won't try to be. But there are many ideas we have recieved over the past few weeks that we are interested in implementing and hopefully we still will.
It just takes time... school has started back for all 3 of us, so it's slowed us down. But we're trying =P
-C
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Maddy_ACEDL
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One suggestion (yes I tried Lifetank and El Tank) is that the routine for monitoring self-buffs just really sucks. Use the spells collections to see what spells you have left on you, and the time remaining, to determine if you need to buff a spell or not.
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bearer1
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"As you have seen macroing can be a problem. It's a very controversial issue and if such code were left in the wrong hands it could do a great deal of harm".
Am I missing something here or is this what people have been saying about Tank since its inception?
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RareBreed1
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It would be nice if LTx had a tinkerbot option to.
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Crelic_MT
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ACTool has a tinkerbot script already.
Also, we would like to stick to the original concept of "Combat Tool", rather than all in one plugin.
Granted there are a few features that are not directly combat related, but they still help in gameplay to get you closer to the combat part.
Tinkering is very helpful, but I don't believe it has a place in LT.
-C
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Monolith_WE
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ACTool has a tinkerbot script already.
Also, we would like to stick to the original concept of "Combat Tool", rather than all in one plugin.
Granted there are a few features that are not directly combat related, but they still help in gameplay to get you closer to the combat part.
Tinkering is very helpful, but I don't believe it has a place in LT.
-C
The ACtool Tinkerbot program is no longer supported person quit AC.. It working great as I run TinkerBot 24/7, but I am not sure what will happen with new version Decal.
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EbonDragon
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Good luck in your future endeavors.
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Chazcon
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Monolith_WE posted:
The ACtool Tinkerbot program is no longer supported person quit AC.. It working great as I run TinkerBot 24/7, but I am not sure what will happen with new version Decal.
The script is not the part that would be broken by a change in Decal - AC Tool itself is the concern. It's up to the AC Tool devs to keep it updated with changes in Decal.
The thing is, so very, very few people still use AC Tool in Asheron's Call, that there is little incentive for the AC Tool devs (who don't play AC anymore) to put their time and energy into it. That being said, they HAVE kept it updated for the most part, and my hat's off to them. Let's hope they continue to do so.
-----signature-----
Chazcon - Aluvian swordsman
You say, "FOR THE VITAE!"
Ru tells you, "CHAZ!"
Simply Red tells you, "I am SO not recovering your body!"
-- Good times.
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Churi-ya
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Well, having now DL'd, loaded and played with the other plug-ins out there, I find that my enjoyment of the game WILL substantially plummet, violently, when Tank stops working. Getting used to these new plug-ins isn't the issue. I can get to know them intimately, and give them every chance to do all they can - and they won't compare to the functionality, diversity and overall well thought out quality and ease of use that El Tank provided.
To hell with the ability to UCM with it - take THAT away completely - and I will simply be lost without it.
Now - lost MAY seem like a huge word - but, while I can play without the benefit of something playing "for me", and have done so for years - many of which did not involve the use of Decal at all (ask my first Patron and Monarch) - I stubbornly refused, adamantly, to use Decal, but eventually I got tired, dead bone tired, weary, bored and frustrated with endlessly looking for, and subsequently not finding that damn Ralirae character.
Then El Track opened a new world of ease of play for me.
And I found that elusive Aun and got my skill credit thank you very much.
I found countless corpses, not only my own, but of friends and even complete strangers in places I'd never been.
I found Plaguefang.
Twice.
I found The Pure One before he would spawn every 5 clicks....
Self buffing and the countless other inane and useless repeatative things required just to play - were eased significantly. El Tank does it all from directions to loot profiling to salvaging and sorting to usting to buffing both self and friends; to healing and staming self, friend and fellows - it's uses are brilliantly conceived and myriad. And cannot be replaced by anything else out there currently. Not effectively, not as conveniently, no matter how cleverly you configure or combine. The day Elgar announced his retirement, whatever his reasons, I DL'd as many plug-ins as I could and used them in as many combinations I could, using what seemed to make sense and using input from many many others and found that the game simply sucks without that ease of use I have come to rely on utterly.
Asheron's Call and El Tank are as far as I am concerned - one.
Now I find it noble, kind and honestly surprising to see how many people here are wishing El the best and thanking him for the things he has done for this community. And I have already stated my admiration for his contriubution and given my thanks for the petulant whining he has had to endure each and every month when they prop the game and Decal for a short while is down - and our precious Plug-in cannot be used.
But, while I am both grateful and thankful, and do wish him the very best in his pursuits, I have limits to the amounts of hypocracy I can stomach. Not Elgar's, and not any of yours - those of you reading this either. Instead, I find myself filled with loathing towards myself - as frankly with all these kind words and pleasant platitudes, not very deep down, no, actually simmering right on the surface, oh what the hell, roiling forth in a twisted raging mass is one ass load of pissed off.
Pissed off that something that I have come to rely on to play this game and MAKE it enjoyable for me, is going away.
And pissed off enough to state plainly that in my opinion, regardless of whether it is wanted, warrented or even right - that You Elgar, in your "I don't support Turbine anymore" stance, that walking away isn't going to hurt Turbine in the long run. But, let us assume a worst case scenario. Yes, if enough people DO walk away and quit the game because that ease of play they've come to count on, people like me have come to count on, then Turbine loses revenue. Hell, if they lose enough revenue, they pull the plug entirely. And I concede that if it comes to that, you will have dealt Turbine a death blow. The Biggest Global Ever. But I'll be damned if that's who you've really hurt. Everyone seems to be tip-toing around the fact that it's us, the countless players who will lose the ability to USE this plug-in, THOSE are the ones that are getting hurt here. And if an El Tank free AC kills AC, then guess what, you've deprived all of us the game we love. Speaking worst case mind you.
For me it would boil down to responsibility. As a Monarch, I have a responsibility to my clan in this game. I have friends who want to play newer brighter games. They push and prod me tirelessly to join them. But I have a responsibility to those who remain here, friends and clanmates all. I don't want to talk them into going anywhere else, to do anything else, because this is where their fun is. Along these lines, for me, if I had the ways and means to MAKE a plug-in as wonderous as El Tank, and I had thousands of people that relied on it for their enjoyment of the game - then I would feel an obligation to them as well. Aye, you're not bringing it down today, or tommorrow. Aye, you've not made paying on Pay Pal a mandatory thing - and you've put up with enldess grief from a thousand different directions while providing an oft times thankless service, all for free. And yes, you'll give us time to seek out other solutions to our needs, and yes, yes, there are other plug-ins out there that at least vainly attempt to do what El Tank can. And ultimately, of course, we could remove decal completely and do what god, country and Turbine always envisioned, and play the game as is - 3rd Party App free.
But again, speaking for myself, and not anyone else:
I don't ever want to go back to that day. Not ever.
And finally I'm pissed because it looks like I will have little choice.
-----signature-----
Advanced Dungeons and Dragons - DM for 28 Years!
Asheron's Call: Bleys Icefalcon; Monarch of Renaissance - on Harvestgain
If you want someone to be politically correct, I suggest not engaging me in conversation.
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Gones_Mage
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THX for the time with El Tank.
It made ALOT of GREAT friends for me.... Being able to chat and hunt....What a concept...
GL in whatever ya may do.
IF was my baby too.......I'd take IT with me as well:)
-----signature-----
Gones
Clan Takada
30x275!
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hobartbouregarde
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Can we come up with a fund to keep ElGarls accounts active so he can test?
-----signature-----
Hobartsun 200+ Mage
Hobart Bouregarde 130+ Axe
Abju 130+ Sword
Obju 150+ buff bot/tinker
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Drakier
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That goes against what Elgar said.. he doesn't want to support Turbine at all.. by someone else paying an account for him, it would indirectly contribute funds to Turbine which would in turn support them.
It's a matter of principle and I see where Elgar is coming from. I respect his decision. Why can't other people just let it go and respect his wishes as well rather than trying to convince him to change his mind, or pay for his account?
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ElgarL
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Drakier is correct. Someone else paying for my account is going against my desires. I refuse to support Turbine in any way, unless we get at the very least a dedicated Dev team.
You must have seen the latest teaser pic for the next patch? It's the drudge disco. It's not even new, It's years old. It's just an ancient dungeon being opened up again. Thats not content. It's fobbing the players off with changing around already existing content and attmepting to pass it off as new.
Actually the Drudge Disco has been in the game since the days of Beta. Everyone had a party there when they closed the server on the last day of Beta. It was revamped and used later in the Martine/Gaerlan story arc, and now is being opened up again as supposed new content.
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migrax
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Maybe this is signifying the end of AC???
I remember the last night of beta and the disco, at the time I thought it was the coolest thing, but that isn't content, it is 1999 era eye candy.
It doesn't matter. Maybe the game needs to be retired. I'd like to see it go out with this last surge of players than to see it just whimper away like AC2 did. Then I can rid myself of these laggy forums too.
migrax
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Drakier
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forums? lag? where?
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Yula_the_Mighty
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Numerous people have been wanting Turbine to allow us access to some of the old content that we can not get too. Turbine goes and does a simple change to let us back in the End of Beta Disco Hall. People freak out because Turbine listened to their customers.
Could we wait until we see what all the October content is before napalming Turbine?
Or better still prep the flamethrowers to use on Frelorn's rump. We can search the October content for a bug or spelling error. I heard Frelorn likes it hot. So there is a good chance that Crowley and company left something for us to find so that we have a valid reason for flaming Frelorn.
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Arch_Magi
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Yula_the_Mighty posted:
So there is a good chance that Crowley and company left something for us to find so that we have a valid reason for flaming Frelorn.
Since when do we need a "valid reason" to do that?
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-Zalliun-
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-People freak out because Turbine listened to their customers.
Wonder why , we want housing , we want pkl was all great players ideas.
Polishing up old content isnt content , they should just go to 2 or 3 month cycles if they dont have the manpower.
A new Aerlinthe or Queens Quest would be amazing , new as in same complexity not polished up old Aerlinthe with new monsters, and just cap the levels at 60-80 so people could make a char and actaully have a challange trying to go though it for once.
-----signature-----
Fake it till you make it
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Yula_the_Mighty
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-Zalliun- posted:
Polishing up old content isnt content , they should just go to 2 or 3 month cycles if they dont have the manpower.
We are going to get polished old content - because players asked for it. Obviously it is no interest to you. But then again, Turbine is not doing it for you. Same issue that Arch has with the Disco Hall. He wanted something else...
I do not see how a two or three month cycle helps. We get the same amount of content. We get all of it on the second or third month and nothing on the off month.
Is what you are looking for is one big quest every month or two and nothing else?
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bartzHG
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turbine does listen to its players. i asked for ninjas and i got them 8).. just not where i wanted them tho.. its all my fault 
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ElgarL
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We are getting polished old content because theres no sizable dev team to add new. It's not Frelorns fault, he's just an underling who has to do what he's told and make do with what he's given.
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Migy_AC
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ElgarL posted:
Drakier is correct. Someone else paying for my account is going against my desires. I refuse to support Turbine in any way, unless we get at the very least a dedicated Dev team.
You must have seen the latest teaser pic for the next patch? It's the drudge disco. It's not even new, It's years old. It's just an ancient dungeon being opened up again. Thats not content. It's fobbing the players off with changing around already existing content and attmepting to pass it off as new.
Actually the Drudge Disco has been in the game since the days of Beta. Everyone had a party there when they closed the server on the last day of Beta. It was revamped and used later in the Martine/Gaerlan story arc, and now is being opened up again as supposed new content.
Sorry El, when turbine asked what old dungeons needed updating, I brought up the Drudge disco.
I miss it from not only end of beta, but from when I was a +Sent too.
You know, an arguement could be put forth about how the Viamontians aren't new content either. They were an old race, scrapped from the early dev days. http://www.thejackcat.com/AC/Travel/maps/BetaMap.htm
I know the disco isn't new, but to alot of people it is, and to some of us oldtimers, it's a reconnection to an AC gone by.
Sorta like how I still go and hit Mountain Halls when im in the area. It was THE place to go level once you were over 30ish, back in the day.
In the circle of friends I had back then it went something like The pit, Mt Niap. then Mountain halls to p/l though I digress.
I for one will be happy to see its return, even if it is only for the festival season.
-----signature-----
Iggy - You were born on 11/2/1999 8:14:03 PM. 'Idiots are fun.... ......No wonder every village wants one." -Greg House http://live.xbox.com/member/Mindslice http://miniprofile.xfire.com/bg/bg/type/0/mindslice.png
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Majielle
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QUOTE ELGAR:
**************************************************************************************
Have you ever thought it's because I don't want it to help whiney little ungrateful asses like you? I code, provide and support a plugin for 5+ years. I host a website and provide daily technical support for all that time, paying the costs out of my own pocket. Heck I even pay for and provide the hardware that hosts the forums.
I do all this for no profit and you come here whining because you think I owe you something? Do you also whine like that when your parents don't let you stay out late? You seriously need to stop thinking of yourself for once. It will come back and bite you on your ass one day.
The real reason I don't release the source code is because I no longer support Turbine. Turbine have been taking increased subscription fee's for a long time now, without providing a reasonable level of support and content. We have less devs and less support than we did before the price hike. We pay more, but get less in return. If I keep maintaining ELTank or release the source then I'm still supporting Turbine.
They can't provide a decent sized Dev team or even reliable Envoys, I'll not support them when all they are doing is milking this game and ignoring their playerbase.
*************************************************************************************
WELL WORTH REPEATING! BRAVO, El.
-----signature-----
And in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years.
Catriana / Betelgeuse - WE
Majielle - VT
Maji Elle - Frostfell
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Majielle
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QUOTE:
************************************************
Majielle: there were many plugins which did everything that ELTank did (minus the combat macroing) better than ELTank.
So the statement that you used ELTank for everything BUT the Combat Macro seems wierd.. considering the alternatives.
The only reason I know of people using ELTank specifically is for the combat features.
Now those plugins aren't all around anymore, so trying to find alternatives for some of the components may be difficult for now.. but in the past, there were many better options.
*****************************************************
Let me try to answer that for you. It may well seem weird to you. I trust Elgar. In all my years of playing AC, I read reports of hacking, key loggers and all the horror stories that go along with it. I didn't want multiple programs by multiple people who I don't know. (not that I know Elgar, but I feel as I do based on what I have seen him say). To be honest, if it wasn't necessary to run Eltank, I wouldn't have put DECAL on my machine. My daughter had used other "plugins" on her computer and she told me about them, but I really didn't want all the different ones. I wanted a ONE PROGRAM DOES IT ALL and I found that in Eltank.
But my main reason was that I totally trusted Elgar and felt there would be no way he would install malicious software on my machine with his program. I didn't want to deal with numerous unknowns.
For me, better plugins weren't my goal.. ONE plugin that did it all.. was my goal.
BTW, I never cared anything about xp or levels. I hunted scarecrows and did quests. Why on earth would I UCM scarecrows? 
-----signature-----
And in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years.
Catriana / Betelgeuse - WE
Majielle - VT
Maji Elle - Frostfell
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Majielle
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Quoted Elgar:
***************************************************************
Sure it didn't do some things in as much detail as more dedicated plugins (like Banditsight), but most players didn't want overly complex plugins. They wanted to remove the more mundane tasks via the simplest method.
Thats how I undertand it. It's what I wrote it for, and it seemed to catch on.
*****************************************************************************
BINGO!
-----signature-----
And in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years.
Catriana / Betelgeuse - WE
Majielle - VT
Maji Elle - Frostfell
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Majielle
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Quote:
**************************************************
I use ElTank but it's loss with not cause me to quit the game. 85% of the people will leave AC? What a joke. I doubt if 85% of the population uses Eltank.
***************************************************
LOL! I don't believe that you KNOW 85% of the AC population. And while we are talking percentages here, what was the player base numbers 4 years ago? 3 years ago? 2 years ago? and now?
The lack of Eltank hasn't caused me to quit. The lack of any quality patches has caused me to quit. I have logged in each patch hoping for something that wasn't for the HIGH levels only (PS. I never macroed, so wasn't real up there in xp and levels), only to be disappointed again and again.
Well, I have better ways to spend my $25.00 a month and I certainly don't need to pay to be bored.
I gave away everything I had and I left.
But, I always get a kick out of reading those players that say they don't care if players leave, in fact they are happy that players leave. LOL. I wonder who they think pays for the game enhancements, devs, etc? I guess they aren't aware that AC is suppose to be a money MAKING proposition for Turbine.
-----signature-----
And in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years.
Catriana / Betelgeuse - WE
Majielle - VT
Maji Elle - Frostfell
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Majielle
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Quote:
*****************************************************
I do not know Elgars motives but I would not be surprised if he thinks that as a result of his leaving that the population will go way down and this will hurt Turbine - thus proving his statement that he believes himself one of the reasons that this game has lasted so long. ******************************************************
Duri.. That is a very interesting statement (especially the last part). Because the FACT is, Eltank is the ONLY reason I have still been playing AC for the last few years.
Now I have no idea what Elgar believes to be true. But, I'm telling you.. that's TRUE for me.
-----signature-----
And in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years.
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Majielle - VT
Maji Elle - Frostfell
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Majielle
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Quoted:
***************************************************
I stubbornly refused, adamantly, to use Decal, but eventually I got tired, dead bone tired, weary, bored and frustrated with endlessly looking for, and subsequently not finding that damn Ralirae character.
Then El Track opened a new world of ease of play for me.
And I found that elusive Aun and got my skill credit thank you very much.
***************************************************
WOW! That was exactly how I was. I remember a patron telling me about buffing (I didn't like buffing because it was boring, I couldn't keep track of what I had buffed already, it was tedious). My patron kept telling me about Decal and Eltank, I just pooh poohed him and said, I don't need to buff. Well, I finally broke down and tried Eltank and I never went out without buffing again. Sometimes, I would just be standing there buffing.. I just enjoyed watching my character buff.
And I totally agree about finding things. Anyone who knew me in game knows that "THINGS" were my thing. Eltank helped me find those scarecrows, the plants (dyes) and so many other wonderful things!
-----signature-----
And in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years.
Catriana / Betelgeuse - WE
Majielle - VT
Maji Elle - Frostfell
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Duri_Gallant
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What I think people fail to realize is that there are a number of plugins out there that do the same thing El Tank does and even better. The only thing that is not being replaced is the auto combat feature which I am happy to see go.
Maj,
In the past BS2 and 6th Sense have always been a lot better than El Tank at finding things. Even though they are discontinued, Alinco and FindIt both do a decent job at replacing them. Also, AgentZ does a much better job than El Tank at giving stats and xp per hour. Buff Me does a better job at buffing.
I understand El Tank may have been the program that you remember as keeping you in this game but you are really not loosing much unless you are a UCM'r.
~Duri
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Ashake
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Duri_Gallant posted:
I understand El Tank may have been the program that you remember as keeping you in this game but you are really not loosing much unless you are a UCM'r.
~Duri
Duri, be careful before you make sweeping statements like that. Although directed toward one poster, it can be implied that you are directing that statement to anyone who uses El Tank ... and I know that is simply not true. Many of us DO use the combat features, NOT to UCM, but to relieve the tedium on our mages of the serious keying necessary to fight. Many of us have bad wrists, and this feature helps us to enjoy playing our mages - not UCM. And to be able to UCM with Tank, you must circumvent the 5 minute timer Elgar put in. I wish one of the alternate plugins you mention would tell you if allegiance members were in the area - that's one feature of Tank I really like too. The bottom line here is that Elgar is choosing not to support the program when Decal breaks it for good. He created it, it is his "baby", he has the right to take the stand he is. It is unfortunate that so many of us have come to rely on it (I play on dialup and accept the increased lag with Tank running because of the help it gives me) and will have to do without it ... but that is his decision, and his right to make it. Although I will not quit AC over it, I most likely will have to either quit playing my mages, or severely restrict the time I can play them. So be it ...
-----signature-----
Keepers of the Lost Flame http://ashakeofmt.yuku.com "Your experience has reduced your vitae penalty to 100%" ... say WHAT?? Love ... Dream ... Believe
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Maddy_ACEDL
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<< In all my years of playing AC, I read reports of hacking, key loggers and all the horror stories that go along with it. I didn't want multiple programs by multiple people who I don't know. >>
And I dare say the majority of those were plugins that someone got someone's friend that wrote a private plugin for someone else.
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Majielle
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Quote from Duri..
*****************************************************
Maj,
In the past BS2 and 6th Sense have always been a lot better than El Tank at finding things. Even though they are discontinued, Alinco and FindIt both do a decent job at replacing them. Also, AgentZ does a much better job than El Tank at giving stats and xp per hour. Buff Me does a better job at buffing.
******************************************************
Duri, No offense, but you obviously either did not read my post, or you failed to comprehend what I said.
I didn't want BETTER plugins. I wanted ONE plugin that did it ALL.
Go back up there and read what I said again.
I have never combat macroed.
-----signature-----
And in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years.
Catriana / Betelgeuse - WE
Majielle - VT
Maji Elle - Frostfell
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Maddy_ACEDL
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<< I didn't want BETTER plugins. I wanted ONE plugin that did it ALL. >>
And why? Only argument I could see for this is just one place to download form, but how often do you need to download a plugin and how much effort does that take?
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Migy_AC
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Ok I need...
Buffing plugin- profiles prefered
Route finder- how to get from a-b fastest. Portals etc within certian radius
UST
Loot Id'er/ loot based on preset profiles
Smartcast- one that does some type of profiles. IE VoD=yeild, vulrn, fester Dires=vulrn
Buffbot plugin- one I turn on, and not have to comb through XML files to customize, add profiles etc.
ACM proggie- not neccessary, but helps. I work with my hands and at times not only are they very sore, but also cut up.
Add that to tendonitis in my right shoulder. ( yeah I know - don't play right ? but wife works nites, and it keeps me outta trouble othewise)
or instead of ACM proggie, one that does voice. "Target next, next, lock, vulrn, war,war, heal, mana, stam, war. Loot next."
Oh, and one stop for support/updates would be nice too.
ELtank does pretty much everything I need, though if the gurus here can give me viable alternatives,
viable= wont crash client, plays nice with other plugins
I'd be happy .
Right about now I'm kicking myself.......... as a freshman in HS I went to a voc/tech. When I went through buisness tech as an exploritory, I figgured out how to get into other users files. Another kid saw me and asked me to show him.
He then went and started deleting files, and otherwise making a mess of things. The school was able to trace it to our class, but since we didnt ahve assigned machines, they couldn't trace it further.
The whole class was going to be punished unless the offender or offenders stepped foward. Since I didn't do any damage I leaned on Jason to step foward, and he did. He got a small slap on the wrist, and then was moved into the computer shop. Where he learned data entry and also programming.
I went on to electronics shop where I learned 95% anolog electronics. We touched on digital but only a little bit, not enough to really matter though.
He can program, I can build a strobe light. lol
Hindsight is 20/20. Had I stepped up I would have gotten the blame, and the credit, and would have at least gotten a chance in the computer lab. It was one of my top choices, but I never got to try it as a freshman, and at the end of the year you had to pick from the shops you did trials in, and were accepted to.
-----signature-----
Iggy - You were born on 11/2/1999 8:14:03 PM. 'Idiots are fun.... ......No wonder every village wants one." -Greg House http://live.xbox.com/member/Mindslice http://miniprofile.xfire.com/bg/bg/type/0/mindslice.png
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Maddy_ACEDL
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<< Buffing plugin- profiles prefered
Route finder- how to get from a-b fastest. Portals etc within certian radius
UST
Loot Id'er/ loot based on preset profiles
Smartcast- one that does some type of profiles. IE VoD=yeild, vulrn, fester Dires=vulrn
Buffbot plugin->>
Buffing plugin - Alinco, Buffme, and perhaps Einstein It!.
Route Finder - GoArrow
Loot ID'er, - Find It! (can UST for you via DHS) , Alinco
Smartcast - Einstein It!, Smartcaster
Buffbot - Castaway, Einstein It!
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Migy_AC
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thanks Maddy.
I'd use castaway for my bot when I run it 'cept I'm too lazy to go through and edit the scripts.
I used to have a working one from when I ran a bot on HG but have no idea what I did with it. Wasn't one I edited though, it was one from a clanmate, so that all the bots used the exact same commands and didn't confuse people.
I think the files are on my dead HP machine, maybe later I'll yank the HD and toss it into this system and see if I can find them.
-----signature-----
Iggy - You were born on 11/2/1999 8:14:03 PM. 'Idiots are fun.... ......No wonder every village wants one." -Greg House http://live.xbox.com/member/Mindslice http://miniprofile.xfire.com/bg/bg/type/0/mindslice.png
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Maddy_ACEDL
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<< I'd use castaway for my bot when I run it 'cept I'm too lazy to go through and edit the scripts. >>
Unless you want to customize things, things should work as is just fine. If you have ideas for alternative commands for buffing, let me know and if I agree I'll add them to the default files.
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Duri_Gallant
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"Duri, be careful before you make sweeping statements like that. -Ashake"
Ashake,
For the record I was NOT implying that everyone who uses El Tank is a UCM. My point is that it is the only plugin that has the ability to do that, that I know of. I understand there are a number of players with RSI (Repetitive Stress Injuries) or other disabilities that use it and never UCM. However, it would be hard for me to believe that the majority of users use El Tank for that reason.
Majielle,
I understand what you are saying. My point is that you are really not loosing many of the features of El Tank but just the ability of having it in one plugin.
~Duri
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Majielle
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<<And why? Only argument I could see for this is just one place to download form, but how often do you need to download a plugin and how much effort does that take?>>
I did answer that question.
I wanted ONE plugin to minimize my exposure to viruses, hackings, key loggers, etc. By utilizing ONE plugin, with ONE maker.. I didn't have to concern myself with who was making the plugin, what kind of backdoor access to my computer did they program in for themselves and other various paranoid notions that I get when I am connected to the internet.
It doesn't matter if my reason is logical to you or anyone else. It was my reason for wanting only ONE plugin.
It was convenient having only one program to update, download etc.. but that had nothing to do with my reason for wanting one.
Frankly, I don't trust those kids out there making the plugins (and I can say kids because I'm over 50).
And it isn't an "argument", it is my reason.
And if I was still playing the game today, I would have only one plugin and when that plugin was gone, so would I.
I wouldn't play AC without Eltank. Period.
-----signature-----
And in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years.
Catriana / Betelgeuse - WE
Majielle - VT
Maji Elle - Frostfell
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Duri_Gallant
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Yeah, kids *shake head* darn little buggers! I don't trust 'em either. 
~Duri
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Churi-ya
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I was done with this post - then I had to come back and revisit it. Better?
There isn't anything better out there than El Tank.
One plug-in, everything covered. Everything.
-----signature-----
Advanced Dungeons and Dragons - DM for 28 Years!
Asheron's Call: Bleys Icefalcon; Monarch of Renaissance - on Harvestgain
If you want someone to be politically correct, I suggest not engaging me in conversation.
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Maddy_ACEDL
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<< I wanted ONE plugin to minimize my exposure to viruses, hackings, key loggers, etc. By utilizing ONE plugin, with ONE maker.. >>
Irrational fear in my book, download from known sources and nothign to worry about. Just my opinion.
<< I wouldn't play AC without Eltank. Period. >>
Buh-bye
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Migy_AC
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*sigh* ( disclaimer- this is a broad based reply not intended to be to any 1 person )
Fact- there are several ways you can UCM.
Fact- the only way to do it with ElTank is to download, install and run something else that defeats the timer.
Fact- this was apost about Eltanks future
Opinion- Eltank made it very easy to have all the utilities I needed in one easy install.
Opinion/Editorial- I am getting so sick of everytime someone says they are upset, may leave, etc etc someone coming along and saying bye bye.
I have a neat idea...
If you do not like how other people play, then you quit. How does that sound?
So long as people are staying within the boundries set by Turbine, it is not anyone elses concern how the game is being played.
So what if I use eltank, or lifetank, or warbot, or whatever. It is not your concern, nor is it your place to try and tell me what I can and can't do.
So long as im at the kb and able to see and respond to an Envoy, I am within my rights.
Had it not been for several utilities that have come along over the years, I would have been long gone from this game.
Yeah yeah, I know... BYE BYE ya dont need me either, right?
-----signature-----
Iggy - You were born on 11/2/1999 8:14:03 PM. 'Idiots are fun.... ......No wonder every village wants one." -Greg House http://live.xbox.com/member/Mindslice http://miniprofile.xfire.com/bg/bg/type/0/mindslice.png
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ffxiplaya
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AC players are very very...stubborn and opinionated in a way that they never budge. It's part of the reason why AC is the way it is today I think. Just an observation, don't kill me please.
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Migy_AC
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<AC players are very very...stubborn and opinionated in a way that they never budge. It's part of the reason why AC is the way it is today I think. Just an observation, don't kill me please. grin >
Lol. I think its people in general, not just AC players. Now wheres my railgun? ;P
-----signature-----
Iggy - You were born on 11/2/1999 8:14:03 PM. 'Idiots are fun.... ......No wonder every village wants one." -Greg House http://live.xbox.com/member/Mindslice http://miniprofile.xfire.com/bg/bg/type/0/mindslice.png
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Maddy_ACEDL
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<< So what if I use eltank, or lifetank, or warbot, or whatever. It is not your concern, nor is it your place to try and tell me what I can and can't do. >>
I for one have never told you what you can or can not used, but have pointed out alternatives, especially to those doing the "woo is me, El Tank is soon to be no more".
As long as someone isn't breaking the rules set by Turbine, I really don't care what they do in game.
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Drakier
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As long as someone isn't breaking the rules OR directly impacting MY gameplay experience, I don't have a problem either.
My problems come because people who generally are impacting my gameplay experience are also breaking rules through either UCM, or general annoyance issues.
That being said.. I believe there are some things that are legitimately bad for the game.. currently against Turbine's rules or not... and I have my own opinions on that.. unfortunately, there isn't a lot I can personally do about it but inform people, complain, and just try to be heard.
Combat Macroing is one of those things, and I genuinely believe that the ONLY reason that Turbine doesn't out-right disallow ACM as well as UCM is because they can't legally detect and prove it. They cannot prove that someone is ACMing, although they CAN prove that someone is UCMing (based on testing). I also believe that Combat Macroing hurt the game in a way that can never be fixed. Such is life.
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Migy_AC
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Maddy, my post was not directly to you.
It was a general responce to many posts. I hope you didn't take it personally.
I've just seen too many " buh-bye " posts recently and it irked me.
I feel that if people actually care about AC they won't be encouraging people to leave, even if their playstyle is one not approved of by the mortal majority.
Drak, I know you are right on many points.
I do use combat proggies quite a bit myself, but i do not UCM. My characters are too valuable to me to lose them to a ban.
I'd rather unsub and leave AC than have my accounts prema'd for UCM.
And yes CM did hurt the game in a way that can't be fixed, as did the XP chains, and other things. Its too late to change those, hopefully Turbine can learn from those mistakes and keep from repeating them in future games.
The only way they can "fix" those mistakes in AC would be to open a world that 3rd party proggies are prohibited, and to work with you Decal devs to have a way Decal can be deactivated on that world. It wont stop some people, but it will stop the masses.
The existing worlds are already borked, and taking away ACM would , in my opinion, be a fatal mistake at this point.
-----signature-----
Iggy - You were born on 11/2/1999 8:14:03 PM. 'Idiots are fun.... ......No wonder every village wants one." -Greg House http://live.xbox.com/member/Mindslice http://miniprofile.xfire.com/bg/bg/type/0/mindslice.png
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bearer1
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I still say this is a legacy post in the making.
Not as great as Nara coming out, but a legacy post none the less usefull for the next time.....
Isn't Drama wonderful.
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Chazcon
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Drakier posted:
I also believe that Combat Macroing hurt the game in a way that can never be fixed. Such is life.
Reset all characters to level 1
-----signature-----
Chazcon - Aluvian swordsman
You say, "FOR THE VITAE!"
Ru tells you, "CHAZ!"
Simply Red tells you, "I am SO not recovering your body!"
-- Good times.
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Paraduck
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Chazcon posted:
Drakier posted:
I also believe that Combat Macroing hurt the game in a way that can never be fixed. Such is life.
Reset all characters to level 1
Pissing off most of your customers isn't typically a good solution.
-----signature-----
We are like dwarfs sitting on the shoulders of giants. We see more and things that are more distant than they did,
not because our sight is superior or because we are taller than they, but because they raise us up and their
great stature adds to ours
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MagusOfAtlan
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I wouldn't mind all characters being reset at all, and would continue playing.
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Thorfinn_Sigurdssen
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Perhaps, but I'm fairly sure you'd be in the minority. I for one would probably cancel my account if Turbine reset all my chars to level 1.
If you really want to start at level 1, deleting and re-creating your characters is always an option that all players have.
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LewisTheTank
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I for one am happy with AC. With or without Decal, I can still play my chars. I've had times where ANY plugin assistance was vital, and still others where the plugins were "in my way", as it were. I could go either way, but would prefer to have some help!
As for AC "going downhill", consider those of us who, in fact, haven't even yet seen HALF of the "lower level things" within the game. Let's pretend there's over 5 million different things to do in AC. Some people only focus on maybe 1/3 of those, ignoring the rest. Still others do as much as they can, and still don't get to see everything. I'm happy with Turbine's progress, as are many others I'll wager.
Who is to say which game play style is the best?
I'll tell you: THE ONE WHO IS PLAYING THE GAME!!!
I have always loved to go to AL and enter the volcano, I barely see anyone in there, if any. (On average MAYBE 1 or 2 other person(s) a week...) Does this mean I can load up tank and let my char have a blast all by himself? IF *I* WANT TO, YES. Who suffers from this? ONLY MYSELF! With that in mind, I've set my guy up and press the start button and sit back to watch "my cartoon show". JUST in case I need to step in (for some reason) I'll never leave the computer alone. I am NOT worried about being kicked off AC because I am sitting right THERE! (Besides, I'm never in one spot for too long NEways, 'cause I like to move about and explore...) And if I need to go afk for an extended period, say for the phone or a knock at the door, I log off the game, for safty as well as a way to honor the CoC.
Just thought I'd drop my fingers onto the keyboard on this topic. Not because I think I know something, but because my oppinion counts just as much as everyone elses. This is indeed a valuable thread, for a multitude of reasons. Most of which you already know, but one *I* point out is comunity. No matter what server, we're all on Dereth!
That's my two pyreals.
  
(Edited for content and spelling, as well as one additional comment... THIS one LOL!)
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Lurcher1
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Chazcon posted:
You can separate AC players into several groups and sub-groups in regards to UCM:
1)The UCM crowd - people who macro to gain advantage over others in wealth and / or level (skills), manipulate the game just to give themselves a feeling of power or superiority (control or grandiosity syndrome), or do it because they think it's cool (taking the game to a new level, or extending the life of the game for themselves). Many UCM people justify their actions in their own mind by referring to revolutionary slogans such as "Live Free or Die!". Their take is that they are free to play the game any way they wish. This is the outspoken sub-group of the UCM crowd. I'm sure many old-school macroers read their posts with chagrin - macroing was originally a covert operation.
UCM'rs can be broken into these sub groups I think:
a) There are the folks who are skilled and/or talented enough to write their own combat macros. You rarely hear a peep from these people. They do their thing, stay out of sight, and off the boards (Gol's recent 'come clean' a notable exception).
b) There is a large group of people who will use a 3rd party macro program written by someone else, but who are 'stuck', so to speak, if no such program exists. The power trip of macroing IS the game to these folks, most think they would not play if they couldn't macro.
c) A group that doesn't get talked about much in this polarized debate are the casual macroers. The tee-totalers. They will macro up a noob toon to 50, or try out macroing here and there to see what it’s all about, but really aren't into it that much, or feel like they are breaking the rules and stop.
2) The Anti-UCM crowd - people who love the game in it's original form and would take it back to 1999 if they could (the purists), and the folks who never break any rules in-game or in real life and want only to push their agenda on the rest of the world (the fanatical zealots). The zealots are the most outspoken group of the Anti crowd. Their mind set, dialog, and actions are very much like religious zealots in real life. They cannot comprehend that there is another point of view, and thus label anything different than their way of thinking as 'bad' or even 'evil'. It's nearly impossible to reason or debate with this crowd, so unbending are they in their adherence to their convictions. The purists are a more reasonable crowd and one can understand their feelings about the matter.
There are sub groups in the Anti crowd as well:
a) People who do not have the technical ability to install and run 3rd party applications. To any of us who consider ourselves 'gamers' or 'powerusers' this seems ridiculous. But many fit into this category. They needed help just installing and running AC itself in the beginning. Many in this group run a hardware configuration that is at or below the minimum requirements as well. And so human nature being what it is, people who CAN'T UCM will gravitate towards one of the categories of Anti-UCM’rs in order to cover their technical or computer knowledge shortcomings.
b) Folks who do have the tech expertise to UCM but choose not to for reasons mentioned above.
3) And lastly let's not forget the group that flies below the radar of the whole UCM/Anti debate and really doesn't even understand it, and is still just trying to learn the game (the noobs).
So basically, all anti-macroers are dumb?
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-Zalliun-
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-So basically, all anti-macroers are dumb?
anyone that really cares that much about a video game be it pro or anti really should consider adjusting whats important in life
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Fake it till you make it
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Arch_Magi
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Paraduck posted:
Chazcon posted:
Drakier posted:
I also believe that Combat Macroing hurt the game in a way that can never be fixed. Such is life.
Reset all characters to level 1
Pissing off most of your customers isn't typically a good solution.
QFT
If Turbine did that, I'd simply uninstall AC and never touch another Turbine game again. Heck, who am I kidding, I never plan to anyway.
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Tiviee
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People still bring up Legality, there is no law covering internet pixals yet so following the law is hog-wash as far as your arguments following CoC.
There is no legal way to enforce to CoC, yes you can risk banning, but if someone had enough money to fight Turbine in court to win back their account, Now that would be interesting to see who would win. I kow it will not happen but cases are the only way law evolves and by the Judge interpretation of the law.
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Drakier
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Turbine would win because it's their game, their servers, and their copyright.
Turbine OWNS the whole AC world. Everything in and around it is owned by Turbine.
Technically, Turbine can ban you for whatever they want, and if they had ANY bit of information to back up their claims, they would win the suit because they own it.
You don't own your account. You don't own the items on the account. You own a box with a CD, a Manual, and a number on it. Beyond that, you pay a monthly fee as a "rent" or "lease" on the account. Turbine can terminate that at any time for pretty much whatever reason, but they stay within the completely written bounds in pretty much all cases. I don't forsee them banning anyone for any other reason than a complete and utter breakage of the CoC.
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Tiviee
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Turbines CoC was written by man/woman and has no legal binding precedent. It would be a good fight, I could not clearly say that Turbine would win, and if it was a class action aginst Turbine by the many of us wronged by Turbines unfair enforcement - we would probably win. Remeber that the law requires all parties to be treated equally such as in a job or work situation. It is illegal for a company to treat different employess separately when there are Rules in effect. Turbine has clearly broken their own rules - illegally - by treating differnt situations and or people separately - this is not allowed under the law.
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Drakier
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what are you smoking?
Turbine owns all that is Asheron's Call. Turbine HAS to treat people different depending on situation. That's what situations are. They have to judge each and every CoC violation on it's own merits. Just so happens that most of them are pretty clean cut. Turbine tests someone, they fail, they get banned. There are a few other situations where users claim they were in the bathroom, or watching TV, or who knows what else. But in those situations, they were still UCM by Turbine's definition. If they were not ready to respond to an Admin, then they were UCM. It's pretty clear cut.
That's also the EXACT reason why Turbine does not and probably never will ban ACM. Because there is no real way to test if someone is ACM. Macros can be written to mimic human movement. They are still ACM, but it is pretty much impossible for Turbine to detect things like that.
But I can't really think of ANY cases that someone could bring against Turbine where Turbine would lose. Even a class action.. would take a LOT of wronged users who actually have a legitimate claim, and legitimate claims are really really difficult to find. Good luck with that.
It reminds me of the person who was attempting to throw together a class-action against Turbine for False Advertising. A pretty ridiculous claim. They really had no case, and most likely would have not won. Since it didn't go to court it's hard to say for sure, but when it comes to the operation of the game world, Turbine holds supreme power. There aren't many laws which regulate the game world.
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Tiviee
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Drakier, you are a trouble maker and a baiter, enough said.
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Maddy_ACEDL
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<< Drakier, you are a trouble maker and a baiter, enough said. >>
Hey Mr. Pot, have you met Mr. Kettle? You both have something in common.
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Drakier
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Wow.. that's the best argument you could come up with?
I'm not baiting or making trouble. Simply offering an alternative opinion which actually is backed up with an actually decent argument.
In the world of MMO's, the companies hold pretty much full control over what happens within their game world. There isn't a lot that can happen WITHIN the game world that could get Turbine sued (and lose).
Things OUT of game CAN however get Turbine sued with a slight chance at a victory. As I meantioned, the example of the False Advertising case. It is the only case so far I've seen threatened that had ANY merit to it whatsoever. Doesn't mean they would have won (and they probably wouldn't have), but it's the only claim I've seen that is even remotely pursuable.
To put it bluntly, Turbine can ban you for just about any reason they want to, and there isn't a whole lot you can do about it other than threaten legal action.. and that would be all it is... a threat.
Edit:
To give another example... look at Blizzard.. If you purchase a 3, 6, or 12 month account and they ban you one month into playing, they don't have to give you your money back. You COULD pursue a lawsuit against them for the amount of money you overpaid, but if Blizzard has ANY evidence to back up their ban justification, then the judge will say "you broke the rules, you lose the money". All they need is ANY shred of evidence to back up their claims and they win. That's just how the game world operates within the legal system and within their own control over the world. Companies have supreme control over the inner-workings of the game realms.
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hobartbouregarde
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"Future of ElTank?"
What happened to the topic?
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Drakier
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What the heck is up with the board system?!
edit:
n/m... all messages were showing (no message) for me..
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Yula_the_Mighty
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Tivee,
You bring up the point that Turbine can not get away legally with banning people. That is incorrect. Turbine is following long existing business practices that have strong legal foundations.
Some examples:
1) You purchase a gym or YMCA priveleges on a monthly basis. They can refuse to let you use their facilities and they do not have to refund the money.
2) Bars with cover charges can take your money and put you on the street 10 minutes later. No refund and no recourse.
3) Theatres and playhouses can put you out on the street without refund at any time during the performance.
4) No American business is required to provide a service or product to every potential customer with money. For example, a McDonalds can just refuse to sell you food and ask you to leave.
The list just goes on and on. This is a two way street. Businesses have the ability to refuse to accept new customers or dissolve the relationship with existing customers at any time. Customers can choose walk away at any time.
In the eyes of court system, a one month subscription to AC is no different than a monthly membership at a gym. In both cases, you are paying money to be allowed to use the business's property for a month.
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LewisTheTank
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"Future of ElTank?"
What happened to the topic?
I'll pick up on that question for ya!
I aggree that we don't get talked about much, the casual macroers. The tee-totalers as we've aparently been called (hehe).
I myself have heard it called "cheating" by influential peoples hither and yon. There I disagree UNLESS it does disrupt the CoC, or my gameplay, or anothers. I'll tell ya I've used more of MI! than tank's combat aid. But if I've got say 10-20(ish) something-or-others around me, it's better at keeping track than *I* am! Then I feel slightly guilty for the poor whatever-they-were's and their corpses I turn off tank again and go on my merry way.
I hope tank stays. Period. However, I've learned enough about the game in the year-ish I've been here, and even HAD times w/o tank as you have. I'm good either way, but I still hope tank stays.
(There ya go, hobartbouregarde! My contribution to order and continuity!)
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visionoftruth
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I think el tank is a nice plugin and probably the best all around plugin however elgarls un willingness to keep it going sucks.
It's his code though so he can do what he wants..
I wonder if the fact that his plugin is useless against ninjas and rippers was the ice burg for him. He expresses great frustration against the ninjas and turbine.
LT has the situation under control but is falling apart in other ways..
I prefer El Tank all around but it lacks needed features for combat.
LT wins the combat part but the ui sucks..
ET nav and item tracking and ease of interface owns it...
Too bad elgarl after so long your going to let all that time and energy jusr perish..
If it were my code I would figure some way to keep it going.
That's me though not you...
Just Whistle ;-) if you change your mind....
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Churi-ya
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This thread still lives and pisses me off even more.
Ok, Elgar wants to somehow punish Turbine by quitting? He quits supporting El Tank, and El Tank eventaully dies - and those who have come to rely on it.... quit, right? Therefore hurting Turbine?
Ok. Good for him. Bye bye. And bye bye to anyone who can't play without El Tank. Don't let the door hit ya on the way out.
I hereby think we need to take over this thread and call on some OTHER dev to step up and begin work on an all inclusive plug-in that could do what El Tank did.
Alinco and Lifetank have good content and capability right now, and would likely requirte the least "extra" work to add some of the other buff other and fellowship parts.
So, let's just let ElGar quit, bye bye, bye bye, let his plug in die, bye bye, bye bye, and get in line and support someone or a group of someones willing to help fill that void by either creating a new plug-in, or expanding the capabilities of one or more of the existing ones. I know, it's the 11th hour, I know alot of work for a game in it's twilight. But hey, it's either that, or let Elgar win.
And frankly - I just don't want to. He did alot for this community, good or bad. And now he's determined to try and destroy it by removing what he thinks will be a crippling loss of a universally used Plug-in. We survived the loss of Sixth Sense. We survived the loss of Nerfus Buffus. We mourn the bitter loss of Bandit Sight. Well guess what, none of those no longer functioning stopped me from playing the game I still feel PRIVILEDGED to play. And I'll be damned if Elgar walking away does it either.
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If you want someone to be politically correct, I suggest not engaging me in conversation.
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Drakier
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Churi-ya: I know of a certain developer that has an ELTank type plugin in the works that is more... ACM friendly and not UCM friendly... as far as I know it is suppsed to supply a lot of what ELTank did without the UCM problems.
I don't know if/when it will be done, but I know someone is working on one currently (has been since the announcement at least).
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visionoftruth
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el tank was ucm friendly?
It had a 5 minute timer on it. One that anyone with some know how could easily by pass but either way elgarl did his political part.
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Drakier
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I'm not doubting that he tried to fix it. I'm saying it was designed UCM friendly and was still pretty UCM friendly at the end.
the difference is the other plugin won't (hopefully) be UCM friendly. At least.. that is th e intention.
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Lurcher1
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"his political part"
That was his downfall towards the end. People could see through his politically correctness. I have no doubt that he assumed massive amounts of people would leave the game when he left, that's probably been his plan for awhile. Or at least when his plugin finally crashes.
As vision said, people could work around the 5 minute timer. Why even code a timer if you know people can work around it?
Hopefully the devs of lifetank and of this new plugin drak is talking about show us they have a pair and make them acm friendly, but not ucm friendly.
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visionoftruth
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no one is going to leave because of elgarl...
c'mon now...
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ElgarL
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Lots left with me. We are quite happily playing EVE-Online .
But my intention was not to hurt anyone that playes AC, and certianly not to hurt Turbine. My whole goal is to NOT support Turbine anymore. If ELTank was required to play AC then it would be a different matter. It would be Turbines own fault and I'd expect back paid salary.
ELTank is not a pre-requisite to play AC, it just makes life easier.
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Maddy_ACEDL
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But for some people that never learned to play with plugins, Tank, be it El or Life is a requirement for them to play.
But that is a personal issue.
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visionoftruth
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Some left with you elgarl that you know personally?
I meant in the broad scope of things..
No one in the big picture will leave because El Tank stops working.
If both ET and LT go away and no other alternative takes it's place then that is another story...
btw space mmropg's?
yuck.
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vellus
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ACM or UCM, not that important to me anyhow. What I will miss about tank when it is no longer functional is the auto-follow capability and the fellow/specific toon buffing/healing.
I have not really looked yet, since Tank works still, but I hope those two features get made by someone. Eveerything else Tank does, as far as I can tell, has been covered.
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Krackcode
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ElgarL posted:
Lots left with me. We are quite happily playing EVE-Online .
But my intention was not to hurt anyone that playes AC, and certianly not to hurt Turbine. My whole goal is to NOT support Turbine anymore. If ELTank was required to play AC then it would be a different matter. It would be Turbines own fault and I'd expect back paid salary.
ELTank is not a pre-requisite to play AC, it just makes life easier.
That happiness will burn out in about 3 months time. Just wait until it takes you 18 weeks to raise a skill by one point...and just so you can detect cloaked ships!
Eve Online is a decent game...but it really lacks imagination and depth. All there is to do are agent quests, mining and pirate kills. The pvp is great, but the problem is just like on DT...starting is ok, but trying to catch up is impossible. You'll never even come close to equal with the players who have been there from day one.
Enjoy it while it's fun though
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el-es-dee
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I once was banned from ELTANK
Then my crew found a work arround and coded LT
So.. lawl to you all
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ElgarL
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Karack, I've played EVE on and off for a couple of years, this was really just a return to EVE . I remember ages back shutting an account down when it was 28 days to train Mining barge lvl 5, now I dont bother. I train shorter skills during the day, and then set the long ones training at night. It quite quickly reduces the big ones to much more manageable chunks.
So far we are still building the skills to effectively fly Battleships, but in the mean time we are strip mining belts by the dozen .
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vellus
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but how can you do that El, if AC is the only game out there with macros???
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ElgarL
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You don't need macro's to mine belts. Just keep checking back regularly to haul yoru ore in.
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The_Korrigan
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Churi-ya posted:
Ok, Elgar wants to somehow punish Turbine by quitting? He quits supporting El Tank, and El Tank eventaully dies - and those who have come to rely on it.... quit, right? Therefore hurting Turbine
The simple fact that elgarl thinks he can punish someone by stopping to support his lameass cheater plugin shows how immature he is and how big his ego is.
Good riddance.
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SWTOR: 50 Jedi Shadow (Tank), 50 Sith Marauder (Annihilation).
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Drakier
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<hijack_thread>
*waves to The_Korrigan*
I'm not used to seeing you on THESE forums... btw.. that was a lovely debate on teh normalization of attack speeds.
</hijack_thread>
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quren_mt
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Man, all the negativity is sure to make Elgar feel good about the time he's invested in Eltank.
I'm just as sad a panda as the next guy once it breaks, but insulting Elgar is not warranted.
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The_Korrigan
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I didn't know you were playing WoW, Drakier, to be honest =)
I discovered it when you posted in that thread.
I hope you have as much fun as me there, old friend !
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agnari
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WHY is this topic still open, still going?
it's obvious Eltank has absolutely NO future.
As soon as decal changes for upgrades/changes to AC ect Eltank will be dead in the water. So why don't we just lock this thread and move on to something productive instead of living in the past?
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Churi-ya
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No what Agnari? AMEN!
No more attention to this or it's dev.
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Advanced Dungeons and Dragons - DM for 28 Years!
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If you want someone to be politically correct, I suggest not engaging me in conversation.
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Lurcher1
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^Happy Veterans Day
-former ET2
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bartzHG
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i waz here
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ElgarL
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Churi, you seem to feel I owe you something. Perhaps you forgot to send my pay check for the past 5 years? If you did, PM me and I'll give you my address so you can forward them.
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Churi-ya
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Deleted by meh
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If you want someone to be politically correct, I suggest not engaging me in conversation.
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Churi-ya
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And I guess I'll just get down to it, the bits, bones, pieces and minutae of the whole thing.
I personally DO hold you in high regard. The literally countless hours and effort someone like me can only imagine you have had to sacrifice to make El Tank the comprehensive and all-inclusive plug-in that it is, and of course the subsequent time spent each time Turbine makes a dramatic change to it's client, forcing updating and teaking of said plug-in.
I get it. I really do. I also can feel for the endless crying (some of which came from me over the years) you have graciously put up with over certain aspects of the plug-in, or whether or not it's up and running at all after a patch in what we, the consumer, considers a fair amount of time - IE: Right now.
And in all seriousness I can even see and understand the various reasons why you've decided to leave, some posted on this thread, others in other threads and still more on your own El Tank forums. There has been considerable flailing about, not only on my part, but on the parts of quite a few other people in response to your announcement. Mostly boiling down to the simple fact that whether or not the masses will agree to this statement, YOU are NOT hurting Turbine by quitting.
And I won't even do as I usually do, and try to put words in other peoples mouthes here - you're hurting me.
How?
I am a creature of habit, as most humans are. We eat certain things, like certain likes, craves certain craves and in the realm of MMRPGS, like our gamleplay a certain way, as I have come to rely on AC a certain way. For me, only me, there IS no AC without El Tank. El Tank's VARIOUS functionaility SHOULD have long since been incorporated into the game officially. The list of things it CAN'T do is substantially shorter than those it can. I was ok with certain lesser plug ins, such as 6th Sense dying and Bandid Sight going the way side, as I had old reliable to fall back on. They left and didn't CRIPPLE my play style.
This leaving does.
Now, go ahead everyone and chime in about how good this other plug-in is and how another plug-in will come along or my favorite: PLAY THE GAME AS GOD INTENDED, PLUG-IN FREE!! And for many of you, and sadly me as well, I will have little choice but to heed such words - but for now, for the precious little time left, we still have El Tank. It still works.
The simple fact that it won't, and soon, infuriates me - and I will happily admit, is a very selfish feeling.
As to you owing me something.... again, nope. We've never met in real life. You've never made me any promises, be it in E-Mail IM, PM, verbal or in person for that matter.
But I would like to submit something - were I the creator and sole developer of El Tank, a plugin that I equate to efficient and fun game play to countless users, I would feel a certain obligation to that community. Much akin to a Monarch and his followers. Perhaps that sense of obligation is what kept you around all these years, and it is now outweighed by all of the other reasons for departing. I cannot read your mind, so will never know.
Earlier you said it was not your intent to punish Turbine, nor hurt anyone's game play. I honestly believe you mean that. This said, and once more I will speak only for myself - my game will be hurt.
And that Elgar, more than anything else is why I am as bitter as I am about this whole debaucle.
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If you want someone to be politically correct, I suggest not engaging me in conversation.
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GondorB
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^ very well said...
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bearer1
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His ego will not let it die.
Otherwise he would have dropped his input a long time ago.
Still bookmarking this thread for another time.
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Duri_Gallant
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My perspective on this is the following:
o Elgar no longer plays and has no obligation to continue to spend his limited time on supporting a plugin for a game he no longer plays.
o He has no obligation to share the code for ElTank either regardless of the reasons.
o ElTank is a major tool for macroing and I believe the community as a whole will be better off for not having it. I believe Elgar is doing the community a service by removing it.
o The personal attacks on Elgar are unnecessary. Whether or not he is an egomaniac or a great guy has no relevance on his decision.
o I agree with other posters. In the immortal words of Ferris Bueller, "Are you still here? It's over! Go home!".
~Duri
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vellus
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Duri, just because it is over, that is not a reason to forget/ignore it.
We remember the wars, we remember 911, we remember dead relatives, we remember our youth....etc.
Tank is/was a major part of AC, whether some like or not. It is/was a major utility, so it is appropriate to talk about it on the utilities board.
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Duri_Gallant
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Vellus,
Nothing to talk about. Elgar made his decision. *shrug* What purpose would a debate bring and then what would we debate?
~Duri
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vellus
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I did not really see a debate. Some people slamming Elgarl/Tank, some thanking him/it. People just remembering things the way they saw it....like a eulogy.
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Arch_Magi
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Subject:
Future of ElTank?
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I'm getting PMs and seeing posts about "Will the Addition of the new Augmentation Gem cause Decal to have something done to it, thus breaking ElTank?" ... anyone who deals with Decal care to clarify?
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Maddy_ACEDL
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Probably won't know until patch day and the new aug gem comes out.
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ElgarL
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Churi, I can understand your annoyance and frustration, although it should be directed towards Turbine, as they are the ones who havn't added the features you require.
However my leaving HAS hurt Turbine. My accounts and many others (at least 8 that I know of) are no longer paying into their coffers. I've complained at Turbine long enough with my words falling on deaf ears. I'm now complaining in the only manner left available to me, and one that I KNOW they do understand and listen to. The one of money.
I now pay my money to CCP (EVE-Online). Being that I'm in the UK the game actually costs me 30% more in subs per account (exchange rate), but a cost increase which I'm willing to pay for a game that I'm enjoying.
EDIT: The new aug gem should have no affect on Decal or ELTank. The Aug gem is simply an object, and one that is just a varianlt of those already in-game. The results of that will simply be changing flags on the already existing protocol. Should require no changes.
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Lurcher1
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ElgarL posted:
Churi, I can understand your annoyance and frustration, although it should be directed towards Turbine, as they are the ones who havn't added the features you require.
However my leaving HAS hurt Turbine. My accounts and many others (at least 8 that I know of) are no longer paying into their coffers. I've complained at Turbine long enough with my words falling on deaf ears. I'm now complaining in the only manner left available to me, and one that I KNOW they do understand and listen to. The one of money.
I now pay my money to CCP (EVE-Online). Being that I'm in the UK the game actually costs me 30% more in subs per account (exchange rate), but a cost increase which I'm willing to pay for a game that I'm enjoying.
EDIT: The new aug gem should have no affect on Decal or ELTank. The Aug gem is simply an object, and one that is just a varianlt of those already in-game. The results of that will simply be changing flags on the already existing protocol. Should require no changes.
Just out of curiousity, what did you complain to Turbine about for "long enough".
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The_Old_Code
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Looks as though it's begun.
Someone in marketplace mention that ElTank now says:
This version is out of date
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DarkMisty
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Yup, I just got that also.
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boonwillow
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Also got that message. Installed Castaways for clan bot, but that is all so far.
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howiegoo
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"I now pay my money to CCP (EVE-Online)."
Yikes. I played that game for 3 years and if you have problems with Turbine's devs then you will probably break things IRL when you see how truely worthless CCP's are. I finally quit EVE after giving them the benefit of the doubt for a LONG time. They just can't deliver. There are still bugs in that game from BETA and they don't seem to care. Also, their bloodthirsty "PVP!!! PVP!!! DIE NUB! OMGOMG HAHA!1!11oneone!11!eleven U R TEH SUX No0B!" attitude gets old after a while.
I'll miss ELTrack and ELNav. The rest of it I never used anyway...
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pedd13
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el tank works on lc, not dt tho.
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baybear
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Elgar, I know that Turbine's billing error was the last nail in Tank's coffin, and I understand your frustration.
But I'll admit, I'm a Tank addict -- I love the buffing, the tracking, the navigation -- all of it. It's the only thing that makes playing my baby mage worthwhile, since I truly suck at manually playing a mage.
Would you reconsider your decision to turn off the authorization servers, and allow Tank to continue to work until Decal breaks it in the future? Could we, as a community, make donations on your site to offset the money that you lost due to Turbine's mistakes?
Or must we simply suck it up, and make the switch to other plug-ins now instead of later?
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yaroz_vn
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Baybear, I have yet to see anything official from anyone, stating that the auth servers are down for good. They have gone down on their own in the past. I am hoping that Elgar is true to his word, and lets Eltank survive until Decal breaks it, and not take the auth servers down on purpose, to despise Turbine.
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Drakier
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Does anyone know for sure he "turned off" the server?
I think a lot of people are speculating and jumping to conclusions for what might be nothing more than a temporary server outage..
I know if I were Elgar, I'd be laughing at all the drama something so simple can cause.
Kinda reminds me about the one time my server went offline for an extended period of time... the amount of emails I received was overwhelming. People asking why I got rid of ACDC, and that they use it all the time and need it, etc... and if I'd reconsider picking up the project again and keeping it up until it breaks...
It's the exact same scenario. Mine was just a server outage. Is this one confirmed that he removed the auth server?
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Zarry
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found this post :
Posted by Hamfast on Elgar forums
Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 3:10 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Elgar shut down his authorization servers as of yesterday. Turbine cost him real money with their little billing error... straw that broke the camals back
am also having trouble logging into his forums
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Ftuoil_XelRasH
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"Take my toys and go home..."
Wow
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yaroz_vn
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Zarry, Hamfest equals Elgar on what level?
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Churi-ya
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Well, if he DID shut down his Authentication server, yup, he intentionally tried to hurt Turbine and intentionally tried to hurt the player base - making him a liar.
If.
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ElgarL
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Hamfast = close friend I met in AC and have known for many years.
Yes I have taken down the auth servers.
Turbine charged me when I'm not even subscribed. They havn't even had the decency to reply to my email (sent to the address they gave to deal with this 'error' of theirs). They cost me money when I'm not even a customer of theirs, then ignore any attempts at contacting them to rectify THEIR mistake.
They charge a friend on FIVE accounts (not subscribed), and his billing went over the first of the month. Could have had very serious consequences, and Turbine seem oblivious to the problems they have caused.
Non responsive to Emails sent to the address THEY gave out.
Blocking accounts that are unsubscribed on their forums so you can't even read the messages. If you don't have an account you can read it fine, but if you are unsubbed you are penalized.
Turbine appear to have no intention of rectifying their error as they are totally unresponsive to any forms of communication. I've informed my banks Fraud department and left it in their hands to deal with.
Turbine no longer have ANY support from myself. I'll be vetoing all future Turbine games, and I'll be warning off any friends to do the same.
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Drakier
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Welcome to International Commerce.
I posted similar posting to your forums, but basically the problem is.. Turbine double billed.. they realized they had an error and tried to refund it all. During that time, the Exchange Rate changed, and although Turbine PAID all the money they "took" the banks didn't see it that way, and only distributed a fraction of it.
Unfortunately, that happens with the global economies the way they are. Turbine didn't "Steal" anything. Your bank did.
(although the billing an un-subbed account might be something else altogether.. I haven't heard of that one until now)
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Gones_Mage
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What about those that paid w/ donation to you elgarl? Isnt that letting them down for a service you billed them for long ago? Lest we forgot that time HUH?
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Cykaos_MT
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Turbine refunded you the exact amount they charged you. It's not their fault exchange rates changed. If you converted your money to US$ and then paid them, and then they refunded you in US$ and you converted it back, you would have the same problem. Turbine is not responsible for the currency you want to convert your money to and the effect exchange rates have on that currency.
Should I go cry to turbine because the value of Brazilian Reais has dropped and so if I am converting from Reais I have to pay even more money for my subscription?
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Arch_Magi
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Cykaos_MT posted:
Turbine refunded you the exact amount they charged you. It's not their fault exchange rates changed.
But no matter how you slice it, it IS their fault that they charged him at all.
I bought a $1500 Sony amplifier via Pay Pal from company X and had the money withdrawn from my checking account automatically. If the next month, they withdrew another $1500 from my account and it cause me to bounce 10 checks and I get hit with $250 in "bounced check fees" because they withdrewl the money a SECOND TIME WITHOUT MY AUTHORIZATION, you better bet I'd be royally ticked.
Turbine has "acciently double billed" me 2 times in the past. They have done it to many people also. This isn't an "isolated incident" and has been going on for MONTHS, and yet they FAIL to fix the problem. That IS Turbines fault.
Once again, this isn't so much about 80 cents (or whatever the exchange rate works out to), this is about the PERCEPTION that Turbine has as an irresponsible company. That has LONG since been Turbines problem, in MANY areas, perception.
I donated money to Elgar twice. I don't feel cheated in the least. I'm actually suprised how long he kept the server up. Everyone had 9+ weeks notice that this day would come.
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BeeksNClaws
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My only issue with Elgar is if he did state that players would be able to use tank until Decal breaks it and now pulls his Auth server down to spite Turbine, then he has no integrity. If he stated players are good until it breaks, then he needs to stick to his word. The players have not done anything to him to justify his going off his word.
I had no anger toward the man for deciding to quit and stop supporting his program. How he decides to spend his time in life is his business and he never promised (to my knowledge) that Tank would last until AC closed. But I do believe he stated it would last until broken by Decal.
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Xieish
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I don't even use Tank for anything except XP/hr but Elgar is a big whiny baby. Turbine didn't sit there wringing their hands maniacly thinking "How can we screw that loser Elgar today?! BILL HIM IMMEDIATELY!" and run off laughing into the night. As a programmer you should know that stuff goes wrong, you change one thing and it breaks another.
You act like Turbine personally insulted you by doing this, and swearing off all future games because of a billing error and telling your friends that the company is crap is such a baby move. You've been making Tank for so many years but you must have started when you were eight, since you're acting like a twelve year old.
I don't even care if you update your stupid program, just stop pretending to be some great martyr and get yourself e-tention.
So long, and thanks for all the fish.
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Churi-ya
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lies.
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If you want someone to be politically correct, I suggest not engaging me in conversation.
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MT_Gouru
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Elgar says:
Turbine no longer have ANY support from myself. I'll be vetoing all future Turbine games, and I'll be warning off any friends to do the same.
----------------------------------
That is 100% his right. It is HIS plugin, and he can do whatever he damn well wants with it. His leaving the community of freeloaders that somehow feel they are 'entitled' to the fruits of another persons labor is probably a smart thing.
Given that he has made it VERY clear that he does not want Turbine to gain ANY benefit from his software, I think the responsible thing to do for us Decal Developers is to respect his wishes and killbit the plugin.
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vellus
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you are a little over zealous on killing Tank Gouru. Read this thread and Elgarl's response in it http://vnboards.ign.com/ac_utilities/b5432/100109753/p1/?9 it is clear from this response that while he will not update Tank, he does not want it to die right now.
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Drakier
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vellus: read Elgars post up a few posts.. it's clear from his post that he's killing ELTank now.. (he removed the Auth Server and it was confirmed BY HIM).
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vellus
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EDIT for typos...
in the post if you follow my link I say...
"from what I have noticed it seems if it does not authorize, the combat related things are broke. The nav and autoloot were working fine for me though."
to which he replies...
"You are correct Vellus.
If there is a 'work around' I'll give my permisison for it to be published....
...so long as it doesn't involve altering the ELTank DLL or any of it's associated files.
I'm no longer hosting the Auth as I refuse to keep paying the server costs to support a company which conducts business as Turbine does."
So he is killing the auth servers, which effectively kill the combat uses of his plugin. But his plugin does more than just that. So Elgarl is killing the combat portions of El Tank, not the entire plugin. He is also leaving it open to someone being able to figure out how to get around the auth problem, but if someone really wants combat ability, they would use Lifetank.
So I am still of the opinion that he would not want the killbit way. There is no secret what Gouru thinks of any Tanks. But to try and put words in Elgarl's mouth as to wanting it killbitted rather than just owning up to wanting to kill a plugin due to personal issues is wrong.
But if the decal devs want to make the conscious decision to kill Tank, it is their right to go killbit. But I was sure I read that this would only be done if asked by Turbine or the plugin author (as seen when the Lifetank version without the alarm wsa released). And I still beleive the devs and Gouru are people of their word, so unless El comes out and requests the killbit, you should not read what you want into what is being said anywhere.
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Ftuoil_XelRasH
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Hey EL
In case you forgot, here is a list of People who PAID to use your plug-in your greedy sob.
[MOD-Edit]
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Kriket18
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Wow!
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Ftuoil_XelRasH posted:
Hey EL
In case you forgot, here is a list of People who PAID to use your plug-in your greedy sob.
I should append to the original statement...
In case you forgot, here is a list of People who PAID to use your plug-in THE LAST TIME YOU PULLED THIS CRAP, you greedy sob.
Wow
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Crelic_MT
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Alright... discuss all you want, but please keep the borderline PA's to yourself.
-C
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ffxiplaya
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Wow that many people paid for him to continue the plugin really?
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hobartbouregarde
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I've always been a tank supporter.
I have also supported ElGar's decision to cease future support for the plugin.
I just don't understand cutting off 1000+ users because of 40 pence. Many of us contributed a lot more than that.
Just make one last change to the code and eliminate the /auth and we would be happy.
I'm sure many of us would send you the 40 pence.
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Chemala
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Well Elgar has fixed it so that we cannot use tank. That is his right to do, as it is HIS code and HIS auth server. With him pulling the auth server, it is obvious that he wants tank dead. Dead it shall be to me. Lifetank does almost everything that tank did, and I am sure if we asked the programmers of lifetank that they would put in some of the features that ??tank has. Oh did I place ?? in front of that, it seems I have already forgotten the name of that plugin.
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ElgarL
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Futoil, Wrong. The majority on that list never paid a cent. Others made Donations.
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FFKryten
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We've been though a lot of turbine (and ms) meanderings.
After living all the evolutions of AC it is definitely a shame to see such a sad ending to great sociotechno experience such as Tank.
Never forget this.... A coward is incapable of exhibiting love; it is the prerogative of the brave.
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-Xeo-
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Who in their right mind would give the one person responsible for the initial major decline of Asheron's Call the title "Savior of AC"?
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Do the right thing for a change.
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Lurcher1
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-Xeo- posted:
Who in their right mind would give the one person responsible for the initial major decline of Asheron's Call the title "Savior of AC"?
A bonehead?
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vellus
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Well....did Elgarl code something into the client that caused perma buffs. There were quite a few people that left after that.
Did Elgarl code the plat exploit that flooded the server with pyreals, forced a rollback, and how we got pack dolls?
Did Elgarl cause the billing issues that resulted in double XP weekends?
Did Elgarl force Turbine to use older hardware and cause the unbearable lag we experienced before they finally upgraded?
Did Elgarl develop World of Warcraft, Everquest, or any otehr online games out there that slowly took people away?
Did Elgarl code the spike exploit to flood the serers again with MMD, Pyreals, and plats?
All those examples are one way exoduses. Yes some poeple left because of UCM, of which Tank was the first easy to use method, but those UCM's also stayed in game. Before Tank, there was UCM, but only available to few, Tank took it public. Even then, it is just a tool, people had to make the conscious decision to UCM.
Saying ElTank is why poeple leave and will cause the end of AC is a phallacy. El Tank is now done for, using your logic, nobody will leave AC again?
You are actually causing a self fulfilling prophecy. By crying about the doom of AC and how full of "cheaters" it is, you are preventing people from coming and playing, and lending more to the end than any one tool does...and there are more than one tool available.
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Drakier
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Vellus: there have been other things that have caused people to leave... that isn't what the problem is.
The problem is.. as soon as Elgar brought UCM to the masses, it lead to a huge problem for both the players of AC and Turbine. I could go on and on about the butterfly effect and what his plugin caused, but I've been over it all before many times, and I'm frankly just tired of saying it, and I'm sure other people are tired of listening to it.
To put it shortly, UCM in comibination with XP Chains ruined the game. It's as simple as that. And yes.. I personally put Elgar straight into the cross-hairs for the blame on that considering there was always macroing, but it wasn't until ELTank that it was given "freely" to everyone. I use the word "Freely" very very loosely for obvious reasons.
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vellus
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Ok Drak. Nothing against you personally, or Gouru, or any other Decal dev over time, I have used Decal, never UCM'd but did plat/cash macro heavily. ElTank, LifeTank, Warbot, any number of ACTool combat macros, all have one thing in common, they all use Decal. So is it not Decal that brought UCM to the masses?
Elgarl, Crelic, Paraduck, anybody could not have coded UCM/ACM plugins without decal (not to the level of sophistication they are at now anyhow). So it is your product, Gouru's, etc that led to the ruin of AC. Buffbots are something people are saying ruins/dumbs down the game, trade bots and the resulting marketplace ruined towns, sixth sense ruined the thrill of hunting since it found everythign for you, plat macros, applesauce macro, potion macros, etc... all possible from Decal, all reasons AC is seen as cheaters paradise, all running off Decal.
So I can understand not wanting to take the blame for upkeeping Decal and saying it is what ruined AC, but to say anything built off it is the problem and not acknowledge your part of it....
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Drakier
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Decal provided a framework for plugins to function within AC.
We provided a set of morals and ethics for which these should be used.
We told Elgar not to do it. We've told MANY people not to do it. We can't do much beyond that, nor should we really.
Decal might have provided the gateway (just like ACTool) but it is ultimately the plugin developer or script developer that is at fault for their creation. We are at fault for creating Decal.. for both the good at the bad that DECAL itself can do.. but ultimately the ethics of designing plugins lays squarely on the plugin developer.
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Didikillit
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I left AC for other reasons than Eltank being available, now I'm back I'm sorry to see it has folded and Elgarl has left (for similar reasons I did - billing issues).
It's a shame that so many blame Elgarl for turbine and MS's deficiencies in running this game and the customer care they have offered.
Having used Eltank for free I will always be grateful to Elgarl for the functionality he gave me and which enabled me to CARRY ON PLAYING AC, without it I would never have stayed as long as I did. I did play the first two years without even having decal let alone eltank and to be honest would never play AC without the functionality they give. Most other games have very simplified loot systems-so no need for corpse/loot scanners, and combat is so simple compared to AC that you can one click to attack and just have to ram food down now and then-so no need for a combat macro.
I'd lay money that the vast majority of people that have left AC over the years didn't leave because of Eltank.
I could be surprised, and now it's gone those that did leave because of eltank may now return. But I definitely won't hold my breath in expectation of the servers becoming full again.
I wish Elgarl all the best in whatever he does in the future.
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MT_Gouru
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Ok Drak. Nothing against you personally, or Gouru, or any other Decal dev over time, I have used Decal, never UCM'd but did plat/cash macro heavily. ElTank, LifeTank, Warbot, any number of ACTool combat macros, all have one thing in common, they all use Decal. So is it not Decal that brought UCM to the masses?
----------------------------
Actually, they have more than one thing in common, they all use AC. So is it not AC that brought UCM to the masses? Or maybe it was Visual Basic which El Tank and Lifetank were written in.
That fallacy has been repeated often enough it ought to get a special pedestal in the Fallacy Hall of Fame
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vellus
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Gouru, that is like trying to say being born is the leading cause of death, or marriage is the leading cause of divorce, funny when you say it, but nothing to do with the question.
UCM is generally regarded as something not designed by Turbine and the AC Client.
As the history of AC has shown, not everyone will agree. Do I think El Tank contributed to some of the problems in AC...yes. Do I think it is the only thing that contributed..no. Do I think only things that Decal can do, or facilitate, ruined AC...no. Do I think it is one of the components that did...yes. Do I think that if there was no Decal or any other third party aps, that AC would be the highest played MMO out there..no. Do I think that the fact that it is seven years old is what is leading to its decline...yes.
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The_Korrigan
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If there is a single person reading this text right now and thinking that Turbine designed Asheron's Call with the intend to have it macroed to death by AFK bots, then I reserve the right to call that person "stupid".
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Lurcher1
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Drakier posted:
Decal provided a framework for plugins to function within AC.
We provided a set of morals and ethics for which these should be used.
We told Elgar not to do it. We've told MANY people not to do it. We can't do much beyond that, nor should we really.
Decal might have provided the gateway (just like ACTool) but it is ultimately the plugin developer or script developer that is at fault for their creation. We are at fault for creating Decal.. for both the good at the bad that DECAL itself can do.. but ultimately the ethics of designing plugins lays squarely on the plugin developer.
I find it funny that you guys don't accept at least partial responsibility for the moral decline of the game. Always pass the buck, just like C'relic and Elgarl do/did. Pass the buck.
Somewhere the buck has to stop and if people that are using your program are creating plugins that are harmful to the game, well then its your moral responsibility to stop the destruction of the game. Please don't talk about morals and ethics like we are 4th graders.
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Drakier
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The way some of the posters here act, you'd think they were 4th graders. don't understand simple logic and principles.
Just because we create a framework for functionality doesn't mean we hold a gun to the developers heads and force them to either make ethical plugins or unethical ones.
We have had a Decal Code of Ethics since day 1. It has always prohibited things like Combat Macros and things that alter the game in a negative way. It is not our responsibility to enforce that. the PLUGIN developers should know better than to create unethical plugins, and the USERS should know better than to USE unethical plugins. Unfortunately, I don't expect users to be able to properly distinguish ethical plugins from unethical ones as I don't think they have the professional training to be able to make that distinction. Then again, neither do many of the plugin developers.
That is also another reason why I think more people need to learn proper programming practices before doing plugin development. These are things that are taught in schools and in professional development programs. Ethics of programming. I'm a member of the ACM and when I joined, I had to agree to a certain set of ethics and guidelines. I'm following those. I'm also a professional developer.
Many other developers are not professional developers.. never learned the ethical understanding in software development. That is why we created guidelines to follow. Many chose to still ignore that, and in Elgar's case, actually went against it to spite us. Can I blame him? Absolutely. He KNEW better.. he KNEW what he was doing and did it anyway. That is the worst kind.
Edit:
in case anyone cares - http://www.acm.org/constitution/code.html
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The_Korrigan
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If all the Decal plugin developers had the same sense of ethics than Drakier and Gouru, there would never have been a problem with Decal and macroing. The problem is that a few little punks like elgarl decided to abuse their work and turn it into a cheat tool.
If people deserve the title of 'Saviors of AC", is those guys, and not sad little hackers like elgarl.
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Duri_Gallant
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The truth is that their have always been exploits to this game. You just had to be part of an all exclusive club to know how and where to get them. Remember a program called "gear"? Let's not forget dupes, plat macro's, quest bugs (the rabbit foot comes to mind), and many, many more. Many people loved Elgar because he shared his inside information with everyone and even created a program where it would be easy for them to cheat too.
Many, many people took advantage of things like the plat macro. I know there are still people with mules stacked with plats. Did they get away with it? Of course they did. So the question was whether you cheat to keep up with everyone else or put yourself at a severe disadvantage when it comes to trading?
Some people felt the same exact way about levels. Do I cheat to stay at the same level as everyone else or get excluded at the next high level quest?
Some will argue that ElTank kept the game going because it helped with the boredom which resulted from lack of mid level content. However, this is a "which came first the chicken or the egg" question. Did people get bored and decide to UCM for lack of mid level content or did Turbine not add mid level content because of the lack of mid level players? I tend to think the same people would have UCM'ed regardless of more mid level content.
So does Elgar deserve some of the blame? Yeah maybe. Though, not all of the blame. Does what Elgar did make him a bad guy. Nah, probably not.
~Duri
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ffxiplaya
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There's a reason why people have been found guilty to be accessories to certain illegal activities. While the use of RL scenarios is lame, you can get a sense of why some people feel that Decal is partially responsible for anything you devs blame ElGarl for. You guys knew what was done, you guys had a way to stop it, but you didn't.
Web hosting companies, if they know a site they host is doing illegal activities, they have the power to either ignore it, or shut them down & turn them in. I find it hard to understand how any decal devs can come here right now and talk about how Eltank ruined AC. No offense to anybody, but I really did ROFL when I saw that.
I don't support UCM, heck I don't even have a character over lvl 150. I did however, use Eltank as well as various other decal programs. I can tell you from my personal experiences, AC would've lost a lot more customers if addons like Eltank wasn't released. So if you want to compare what attributed to the downfall of AC? Well I think it's everything, from Turbine to Decal devs allowing UCM's to continue while silently bashing Elgarl. Turbine doesn't enforce EULA often because they like the money they get from people. Decal, I don't know why they didn't ban any combat macro programs from working.
Anyways, my 2 pyreals, yes I know I jumped from one thing to another, didn't make much sense after I read it myself. But hey, just my opinion, and I really did LOL when I saw a decal dev talk about how Eltank ruined AC.
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Drakier
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and please, pray tell, tell me how you expect decal to "stop" it?
this is an old dead horse you're beating because it ultimately comes to the same conclusion. There isn't anything Decal Devs can do short of pulling the plug on Decal to stop UCM with Decal. Even that wouldn't stop UCM.
So please.. enlighten me with your suggestions of how Decal Devs could have stopped Elgar or Spk from making UCM plugins.
We wrote Decal. We're responsible for that. We wrote a Code of Ethics to darken the lines between acceptable use and unacceptable use. We TOLD Elgar not to make a combat macro. That only caused him to want to write one all the more just to spite us. He knew exactly what he was doing when he did it, and in my opinion, that makes it worse.
We can all speculate all we want, but I can clearly trace a pattern between UCM and the decline of AC. Whether you want to believe me or not is up to you. I've done it before and I'd be happy to PM you the details if you care. I don't want to post it here because I've already done it countless times. In fact, if you wanted to take the time and research it, I'm sure you can find many posts about it here.
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Bozo19
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Eltrack was the best, I always loved watching the red text when finding a major and will miss that a lot...
Saying that Eltank allowed UCM in the last few years is stupid, it could be made UCM friendly if you used appropriate plugins, and as far i know, those had nothing to do with Elgarl.
Now talking about UCM friendly plugins, a name do strike my mind, Ltx, all u have to do is hit the start button and there it goes for hours n hours, heck untill a few month ago it still had an admin detect built in. Dont get me wrong, Ltx is a very nice plugin, with very few bugs, and I simply love it. But please, saying that its all Elgarl's fault is wrong.
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Arch_Magi
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Bozo19 posted:
Now talking about UCM friendly plugins, a name do strike my mind, Ltx, all u have to do is hit the start button and there it goes for hours n hours, heck untill a few month ago it still had an admin detect built in. Dont get me wrong, Ltx is a very nice plugin, with very few bugs, and I simply love it. But please, saying that its all Elgarl's fault is wrong.
Actually, it still has the admin detect built in. *cough* hidden switch *cough*
And yes, Elgar has done what was needed to make it an ACM program, as opposed to the countless UCM programs out there, but some people make comments like "Want to make AC better, don't use any plugins with Tank in their name."
Draik can make as many timelines as he wants to try to prove the downfall of AC on ElTank, but then again, using his same logic, I can prove how X was responsible for Y, just because they existed in the same time frame. Sorry Draik, there are MANY reasons as to why AC has gone down the drain, and to say that ElTank caused it is laughable at best.
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Drakier
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Draik? where do you get that from?
As for the timelines, sure.. you could attempt to relate whatever you want. The difference is what actually happened can actually be attributed as I claim it is. You can speak to a lot of "experts" in the area as well and they can confirm. In fact, quite a few players (UCM and non UCM players) will tell you that XP Chains coupled with UCMs are what broke AC. Were there other things that caused damage? sure. Were there other exploits that had a negative affect on AC? of course. But I don't think any of those were nearly as detrimental and as much to cause the decline of AC than UCM.
Don't get me wrong.. AC needs playing aids. But using a plugin to play for you 24/7 is not a playing aid. It's a macro.
And I'm not talking about within the last year. I'm not talking about ELTank AFTER the changes elgar made after YEARS of begging and asking him to change it. I'm talking about his FIRST release up until UCMing became rampant all over the place, and especially in the Tusker Dungeons on AL. It wasn't until AFTER then that Elgar did anything in the way of attempting to curb UCMing within his plugin.
Clearly if you follow the progression of AC and the timeline of events you can see where Turbine screwed up by listening to the macroing high level whiners. There was a very smooth progression of content within AC for a long time. At least a years worth. Nice clean straight line of new content to fit a growing trend in levels. This is when level 50-80 characters were considered uber, elite, and un-obtainable. This is also coincidentally when people started to race to 126 and started attempting to find loopholes.
People started leveling faster and started to figure out the "system". Aerlinthe was put in for level 45+ characters which was considered VERY high level at the time and only a small percentage of the AC population was able to do Aerlinthe. Then BSD was added as well as Metos and a couple other high rate XP dungeons. People figured out how you could macro the tuskers. Elgar created ELTank and made it publically available. Then where did the content go? It immediately started jumping past the mid-level content and started to get into the high 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, etc. All the mid-level content was starting to be skipped. They added a couple of minor things in as they always have, but the FOCUS of the monthly patches started to become VERY high level for the current group of players. People started to feel left behind and feel like they HAD to "cheat" to be competitive and keep up with the content. This fueled Elgars "quest" and added more wood to the fire. Soon, if you weren't in an XP chain and/or macroing, then you weren't good enough.
XP chains started to become insanely optimized and started to turn into a serious pyramid scheme. The ones on the top were gaining INSANE levels because everyone below them had to meet the passup plus interest. This continued at the accelerated rate of content skipping most low-mid level content leaving those who DIDN'T macro behind. I never macroed, and back then, I considered myself a power gamer and so did many others. I leveled at an "Acceptable" pace for not macroing. Yet my highest level character is 114.
I backed off leveling after that and basically stopped playing altogether for the most part. I'd poke around at new content when I had content my level, but it was VERY rare, and generally not even worth the time. I know this because I was in this position. I know how hard it s to be a player that didn't UCM or exploit to get insanely leveled. I played my characters. And I got very frustrated at all the people around me UCMing and XP Chaining to get super high levels. Mind you this wasn't jealousy because I don't want to be high level. I just wanted Turbine to make content suitable for me and people like me who don't feel it acceptable to macro and exploit to "keep up".
So .. now .. you tell me how macroing didn't cause the decline of AC. Then tell me how you've never macroed or tried to "keep up" and played "normal" content. I've been playing since opening retail. I've been here all along. And I've see what's happened over time and I don't like it. I blame Turbine for not doing enough to enforce their rules, and I blame the plugin developers and macro writers (especially Elgar) for unleashing that on the public which shouldn't have ever been give that. He gave everyone macros,90% of which should have never had it. 90% of the people who currently macro only are able to do it because someone GAVE them the macro.
Do I think macroing should be reserved to the few who can do it? If it keeps it from being wide-spread, yes. I don't think it should be done at all, but people will do it. I just don't think it should have ever been made as widely available as ELTank was made. Give people playing aids, but that's a far cry from allowing your computer to level your character for you.
Done.
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Crelic_MT
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Arch_Magi posted:
Actually, it still has the admin detect built in. *cough* hidden switch *cough*
....
That's not funny anymore.
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MT_Gouru
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---------------------------------------------------------------
UCM is generally regarded as something not designed by Turbine and the AC Client.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly my point UCM is also not designed by Decal or the Decal Devs. UCM was/is the product of lazy people who feel they are entitled to rewards without work. Decal is NO more responsible for UCM than is AC or any other tool used in creating the plugins.
We could stop writing Decal, and people would (did) create UCM programs using nothing but Visual Basic or C++. So do you believe it is Microsoft's responsibility to change their programs, and controls so that they cannot be used for writing game hacking tools? Decal only effects one game. VB and C effect every single game out there.
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bearer1
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Now if he will just stay unplugged.
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FlandamierLC
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Just let me have a macro that can buff me and track things and I'm a happy camper.
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-SHIAY-
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short time healing function would be nice to, be it by life magic or healing kits.
dont forget to restam if needed.
dont wanna die while taking a bio break...
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ElgarL
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I'm not sure why people keep talking about 'the downfall of AC'. AC is still going, It's even expanding (so I'm led to believe).
UCM was once legal so that can be thrown off the table straight away. It only becomes a factor since the rule changes.
XP chains actually retained a HUGE number of players. I didn't like them or use them myself, but they were a very large part of what AC became. Once those were nerfed there was a MASS exodus from AC.
There were only three things which cased the decline of AC.
1. No one able to purchase the game = no new customers.
2. No advertising or free trial = no new customers.
3. Nerfs = driving the current players away.
All of those are solely in the hands of the games owners. They are the ones solely to blame for the current state of the game.
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KaBOOM_SC
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and your not helping either.
For christs sake you have the title of "Savior of AC" on your VN account. Wtf. Just go away already or release your source. What do you care?
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Arch_Magi
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Crelic_MT posted:
Arch_Magi posted:
Actually, it still has the admin detect built in. *cough* hidden switch *cough*
....
That's not funny anymore.
Yeah, I know.
[LTxi] Your Lifetank XI is up to date!
[LTxi] You are exempt from certain restrictions placed on Lifetank!
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bartzHG
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are we done Remembering the Past ?
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Bozo19
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UCM and chains had certainly a great part in the downfall of AC, but let me tell you something, when u go to a game store and ask for Asheron's Call, well vendors, they simply never heard of this game. If you say EQ or WOW they just point you to the right shelf.
AC is a great game, imo the best game but there is no distribution, no adds. This has been going on for years, even IBN said players SHOULD advertize for it, how dumb can it be, we are after all part of a quite closed community.
IF there was new blood, then Turbine would have the money to enforce the Coc and make it an healthier game. We can always blame plugins but imo advertizement is the main reason for this downfall.
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MarcoSez
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(Vellus quote, by the by - forum lost it somehow)--> Duri, just because it is over, that is not a reason to forget/ignore it.
We remember the wars, we remember 911, we remember dead relatives, we remember our youth....etc.
Tank is/was a major part of AC, whether some like or not. It is/was a major utility, so it is appropriate to talk about it on the utilities board.(end quote)
You are equating the demise of a free plug-in for a game with your mother dying. With memories of your first sexual encounter. With 3000+ people burnt, charred and liquified.
Again, another positive proof that manufacturers have made computers far too easy to operate.
Seriously, quit playing games, on or offline, until you have some vague grasp on reality. You're frighteningly hyperbolic.
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bartzHG
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[MOD-Edit]
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Beezamen
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anyone look at it this way?
Most are prolly not pissed off, at the loss of El Tank ... it's the reasoning behind it, that irks people.
I see it as this ... How is the best way to "hurt" Turbine? Hurt the subscribers, that pay them. Yet most of the subscribers, deserve nothing of the sort.
/e shrugs
oh well, best wishes to you Elgar.
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Beezamen - Level 275 Tank War Mage {AC - Wintersebb}
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vellus
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MarcoSez....a username created today, with two posts, both to try and bash people. Come back with your real board name before I even consider giving a rat's ass what you think.
EDIT...sorry it was created very early on the 22nd, the rest of the message still stands.
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bartzHG
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[MOD-Spam]
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BeeksNClaws
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I liked AC2 in the end. When it was pulled, I shrugged and moved on. I didn't hate Turbine for it. They gave the equivalent of 2 weeks notice. Yes, it would have been nice to get 30 days notice instead of 2 weeks, but hey, 2 weeks is what we got.
I liked ELtank. It's passing makes me feel like shrugging it off and moving on to something else. However, I have nothing good to say about it's author anymore. He has shown a pattern of unprofessional and childish behavior toward the users of his product. Being free does not mean it's okay to jerk your users around although some folks seem to think that is what using a free product means. To me, free means only that you have no right to complain about it's quality or it's existence. Again, it's fine that he has decided to not continue it. However the manner in which he has done it leaves me with utter contempt for him.
I suspect he hopes everyone gets mad at Turbine for costing him a few dollars. No, unlike Mr. Lightfoot, they at least handled things professionally in their little mistake. If Mr. Lightfoot is so concerned over the alleged 3 dollars then he can take them to court and get it back along with the cost of prosecuting them (so no need to complain about the cost of pursuing such action if he prevails). I'm sure it would never get to court and Turbine would cough up a few dollars to him and have a good laugh.
No Mr. Lightfoot has been itching to wield his supposed power over Turbine. Years ago, it may have even worked. But today there are only a handful of severely addicted fans left in this game. They are not going anywhere for the most part until Turbine pulls the plug. There was no big evacuation when the ninja's presented themselves as Mr. Lightfoot predicted. People adjusted and many just moved to other places. There will be no big exit due to the loss of Tank. In 6 mos it will sit alongside 6th Sense and Bandit Sight and Magellan and Robochef, among others, as something great that came and went. But because of his manner of dealing with the situation, I predict Mr. Lightfoots name will be held in infamy.
One of the great benefits to a developer doing this sort of thing is the recognition one gains in the software world. It can translate to great opportunities when times might otherwise be tough. I wonder now, if Mr. Lightfoot has destroyed any capital he may have built up over the years of hard work he put in to his application.
I would have liked to been able to say, thanks and farewell. I'll just leave it at thanks.
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ElgarL
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Lol If I had wanted to 'use my power' over Turbine it would have been done long ago, while ELTank was still at it's height, and all other combat plugins were pay to use.
As for Turbine handling their mistake professionally, So wrong. They never sorted it out. They never even replied to my emails. They totally ignored the matter. Perhaps you call that 'being professional'? I sure don't.
They have made this exact same 'mistake' over and over in the past. This was the only time it had affected me and I'm not even a subscriber. That's definately NOT professional.
I've been absent from AC and the plug-in scene since I closed my accounts. I have no interest in Turbine or any of their games. I no longer trust them as a company and would never trust them with CC details ever again.
I gave players nine weeks (?) notice that ELTank may someday break, and it would not be revived. I took ELTank auths down close to (one day away) a patch day. If Turbine had even bothered to reply to the email address THEY GAVE to deal with these issues then the auth servers would likely still be up. Turbine totally ignored the situation, as if they don't care. Therefore none of my work and effort will go towards improving and aiding them with their game.
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Churi-ya
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I truly hate that I am not taking my own advice here, but everyone, please stop posting - he simply doesn't deserve the attention.
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KaBOOM_SC
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Hey ElgarL, how about responding to the comments that you have acted very childish throughout this whole matter.
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pimpinsins
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It think its great you guys are going off on him we he gave you years of support for a game you played with out ever asking for irl cash.
Why dont you go post on the turbine boards about how mad about eltank getting the axe and them not putting something like it into the client or maybe the players there that did nothing but talk [MOD-Edit] to him because they feel all players MUST play like they do.
When it comes down to it, its his plug in he made and he owes you nothing in fact if anything everyone that used it owes him something for the years he updated it.
Also the anti ucmers you do understand that para hangs out with the ac dev team right? He also runs the only real ucming macro and after that post on the turbine boards about how lt is moving towards being a plug in that follows the rules of ac we all find out that the admin alarms are still in it and only him and his "friends" have access to it.
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BeeksNClaws
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Churi,
These post are exactly why this boards exist. We are discussing stuff relevant to an AC utility. Rather than ask others not to post, why don't you ask yourself to stop opening up this thread and reading....and then posting!
Not really trying to come down on you but you're spending so much effort trying to control other people's actions when you simply can change your own and your problem will go away.
Elgar is a "public figure" in the AC world. When public figures make mistakes, the solution is not to close ones eyes and pretend they don't exist as you are advocating. The better solution is for the public to strongly speak out let that and other public figures know that their behavior is not acceptable.
Once it gets old and has been run in the ground, then it's up to the mods to step in and say, "enough", and close the threads. This is still fresh and Elgar and his supporters and his detractors have been fairly civil in expressing themselves. I see that as a good exchange.
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yaroz_vn
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I gave players nine weeks (?) notice that ELTank may someday break, and it would not be revived. I took ELTank auths down close to (one day away) a patch day. If Turbine had even bothered to reply to the email address THEY GAVE to deal with these issues then the auth servers would likely still be up. Turbine totally ignored the situation, as if they don't care. Therefore none of my work and effort will go towards improving and aiding them with their game.
---------------
You stated that if Turbine/Decal did something that would break Eltank, you were not going to support it. Instead, you intentionally broke it yourself in retalliation to your experience with Turbine. Believe me, you're not the only one that got mis-billed. The email I received was a mass email, and was delivered promptly to my junk mail folder.
Anywho.. you are perfectly within your rights to take down the auth server, but don't go acting like it's not your fault, and trying to blame others for your actions.
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Beezamen
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It think its great you guys are going off on him we he gave you years of support for a game you played with out ever asking for irl cash. ~pimpinsins
===========================================================================================
Umm? He(like most of the devs (both plug-in and decal)) carried PayPal links, on thier sites, for donations.
Elgar even went as far as bringing down ElTank, and forcing players to "pay-to-use" ... which quite a few did. Then after bowing to the pressure from the players, he released it as a free plug-in again. No one who paid, for the right to use ElTank was refunded.
Turbine, elgar, and even ourselves have made bad decisions ... regarding the "use" of ElTank. Blame can't be placed one one party only. ElTank belongs to him, he will do as he chooses. Just don't try to lay blame on everyone else, it's a choice you made.
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=====Aww, did I step on your poor, itty-bitty ego?=====
Beezamen - Level 275 Tank War Mage {AC - Wintersebb}
Beezamen - Level 85 Warlock {WoW - Blackwater Raiders}
Direbeez - Level 85 Hunter {WoW - Blackwater Raiders}
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ElgarL
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KaBOOM_SC, I ignore those comments . They are neither accurate, nor constructive.
What others see as me having a temper tantrum or throwing my toys out of the pram, others see in reality that it's akin to moving your hotdog stand to another ballpark because the one you were at started double charging you and failing to behave professionally when it came to dealing with it's customers.
Yes the Games spectators may be left out in the cold and won't have any dogs to eat, but it's still a protest AT the ballpark owners/managers, not an attack at the spectators.
Perhaps those Spectators will buy dogs at the other side of the field, perhaps they'll leave for the field you moved to. Perhaps they'll stop eating dogs. Who can tell, each to his own.
Yaroz, not blaming anyone else. It was my decision and mine alone to take down the Auth servers. What people seem to be batting around is the reasoning behind it. I took them down purely because of Turbines behavior, both in the repeated billing mistakes and in their failure to even respond to emails THEY asked for. I took them down because I'm pulling ALL support for Turbine and any product they have their fingers in. I'll no longer have any of my time or work used to enhance or further their games when they behave as they have.
People can call that childish if they like. I view it as not supporting bad business practices.
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-SHIAY-
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So..you say Turbine didn't react? Hmm imo if they didnt react you wouldn't have gotten neither an info-email, nor your money back.
What you expect from Turbine? Makin a trip to your house, bringing you flowers, chocolate and a extra amount of money to show you they did a mistake? Uh oh, they didnt answer your emails, whats better - getting your money back or being emailed like "uh we are sorry, but as we have to answer to every email we get, you will get your money in about 5 weeks"?
El you are/were a player like everyone else, you werent the only one misbilled and you are nothing special to turbine.
You expected them to work the way you wanted as far as i read and complained about turbine not bringing news to the game and stuff. As they brought ninjas, you whined about them even tho those were news to the game, so what you want?
Also, as many others said before, you broke your word you gave the players as you said you would leave eltank running 'till turbine or decal broke it..you broke it earlier. Think the misbilling was really something you deserved as it seems you needed another thing to finally break tank by yourself and justify it by blaming turbine..again..
But as we all are humans and nobody is perfect i thank you for eltank and wish you a good life.
Edit: By the way, i am sorry if my english is terrible but i am not a native speaker..
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bearer1
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"I took them down purely because of Turbines behavior, both in the repeated billing mistakes and in their failure to even respond to emails THEY asked for. I took them down because I'm pulling ALL support for Turbine and any product they have their fingers in".
I am sorry but this is one of the funniest things I have read in a while.
I would venture your unplugging has caused no one at Turbine any loss of sleep or recieved much more then a brief few comments about your doing so.
The only impact you have made is a lot of activity at lifetanks server with the downloads of people switching the plug and play tools.
Sorry to hit you with reality, but unplugging does nothing to the game.
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ElgarL
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Shiay, I got my money refunded by the bank because I informed them it was a disputed charge. Turbine had no authority to make the charge and the bank agreed.
If I had to wait for Turbine to rectify it I'd still be waiting. Actually I am still waiting, they havn't replied to the email they asked for.
BTW, I love how everyone is claiming I went back on my word, as if I had made some promise. I made a statement about the stability of the ELTank code. I stated that it was extremely stable and robust code. I stated that it would take a change by Turbine or a change in Decal to break it. I made no promise. It was a statement, not a guarantee. Heck it wasn't even a public statement. It was a reply to a question in a PM, which I gave my permission to be posted (at their request).
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Arch_Magi
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ElgarL posted:
Shiay, I got my money refunded by the bank because I informed them it was a disputed charge. Turbine had no authority to make the charge and the bank agreed.
Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner.
Credit Card Disputes have everything to do with the Card Holder and the Issuer, and nothing to do with the Company who is using your card without authorization.
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KaBOOM_SC
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ElgarL
You posted:
...in reality that it's akin to moving your hotdog stand to another ballpark because the one you were at started double charging you and failing to behave professionally when it came to dealing with it's customers.
Yes the Games spectators may be left out in the cold and won't have any dogs to eat, but it's still a protest AT the ballpark owners/managers, not an attack at the spectators.
Perhaps those Spectators will buy dogs at the other side of the field, perhaps they'll leave for the field you moved to. Perhaps they'll stop eating dogs. Who can tell, each to his own.
I say:
You think that the spectators are going to be in protest against the ball park owners because you moved your hot dog stand? No! All the spectators know is that they dont have a hot dog to eat. They dont give a [MOD-Edit] about how much you were carged. They just want their damn hot dog and katchup.
You got it all wrong. You arnt gaining support on a fight against turbine because you are doing this in such a childish way. I say if you really want to get back at turbine, you should release a plugin with no timer on it so people can UCM again. That will screw with turbine pretty good I think. Or you should make a thirst type plugin.
[MOD-Edit] there are hundreds of other ways to go about this.
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hobartbouregarde
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Is somebody maybe looking for attention?
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OldNavyGuy
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This whole situation seems as nasty as a bad divorce!
Elgarl, you're obviously a talented decal developer but it seems you've forgotten completely the many years of enjoyment you've received from playing this game and ignore the fact that Turbine allowed an environment in which you were able to gain some fame and some extra cash with your coding talent.
I'm not asking you to reconsider turning off the authorization link but I am asking you to have a kinder view of the company that created such an awesome game and the stand that you are now taking should not prevent you from considering future games from Turbine.
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ElgarL
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KaBOOM, I'm not looking for support. My links with AC are done. It's over. I'm not even looking to get revenge upon Turbine. I'm simply withdrawing all of my support of contributed services from Turbine.
Sure if I wanted revenge then the easiest way would be to release a full UCM plugin. However that would go against all that I believe in. I agree'd to follow the rules when I started playing AC. That hasn't changed even now that I'm no longer a customer.
OldNavyGuy, Turbine had my support for many years. Through all the times they ignored their customers. Through all the times they seemed to be trying to kill off AC. Through all the times of lack luster patches. Through all the times of NO patches. Through all the times they kept making changes to the game, impacting and altering the way I was forced to play. I cut them a break to help them in their troubled times. I willingly accepted the 6+ months of no patches so they could focus on the expansion. I paid the price hike early to support them in developing the expansion. I PAID for the access to their servers, and as a bonus they had my support and contributions as a plugin dev. I paid on multiple accounts.
Turbine is a company and not a person. They operate as a business and should be treated as such. If it were Bin-laden (sp) who had created AC, would you still be asking me to be more tollerant with them?
I have fond memories of AC. It was an absolutely great game. The game and the company are not one and the same though. Those that really created AC are not even there anymore. In fact those that made AC what it was were the players.
If Turbine had behaved professionally then I would still be considering future Turbine games. They didn't, so I'm not treating them as a reputable company to have dealings with. There is no way in hell I'd ever trust them with my account details again.
I boycotted AC2 over the launch fiasco where MS conned hundreds, if not thousands of pre-order customers. They sold the game to pre-order world wide, then 12 hours before the launch quiely (in a single post) informed everyone that only the US gets to play.
Turbine have been cut slack over and over. How much slack should you give a company? A company which is not a friend, but a buisiness. A business who has a responsibility to it's customers.
The slack should go the other way. We are/we're paying for the services they provide.
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newton2k
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The babies in this thread is everyone that want to force their opinion down ElgarL's throat. He's got every rights to the plugin and as such that leave no one but him to make a decision. Leave the man alone, jebus.
AC Without ELTank is not the end of the world as we know it. Use other plugins to replace it, there's a bunch out there. Let's shine the spotlight on some other developers, they also deserve credits for putting endless hour in their plugins. (Even if they don't accomplish everything ELTank does.)
I can't believe the drama, it's like a reality show or osmethne.. Oh, wait.
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Churi-ya
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I reiterate, let it die so he can go mine his precious ore
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Maximilan
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Yeah, might as well let it die, that is AC and all that went with it. 'Remembering the Past' how prophetic a title for this month's patch. Before I even knew of this latest ElTank fiasco I thought what a strange title - my guess Turbine is deciding to pull the plug sooner than later.
I want to thank ALL the AC developers and helpers that have made the Decal plugins work and most consistently for many years. From Nerfus Buffus to whatever the latest is! This includes Elgar who whether you hate UCM'ers or are one - deserves at least a little respect for the best overall plugin developed. I started late to AC and have only played for 5 years, albeit part-time at that. Didn't use Eltank till 2004 and then mainly for timers and buffing. Eventually I did ACM with a mage I created, but only after learning how to play (very poorly) without it. Yes the UCM'ers in the popular dungeons were a pain and drag on XP - but I blamed the user not the developer whom created the tool. To be honest the whole XP chain thing was a much bigger problem than UCM'ing ever was.
Thank for the ride Elgar, Turbine never sucked up to anyone except M$.
My two cents.
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Elgar, your links to AC are not entirely cut. You're posting on an AC related forum. I think everyone understands your position now, and you have made your say. Cut your ties now totally to AC, and don't read or post here any more. That way you can be totally free of the demon business that is Turbine. The people that post here are mostly still playing AC and enjoy the game. You won't convince them that Turbine is horrible, and for the most part, your posting here is just putting more hurt on the people that DO still enjoy the game and think that it's still worthwhile to play, even though Turbine DOES make mistakes. They also DO try (the big evil company that is Turbine still has people working on AC that really CARE about the game and play the game themselves...do you really think they care so little about the game that they PURPOSELY make mistakes???).
A lot of us enjoyed and used your plugin. If you are truly never coming back, never supporting El Tank any more, and really want to end all ties with Turbine...then please do so. Most people that leave the game (and really do intend to quit for good) are never heard from again. They just leave. By you continuing to post here does nothing except make people mad at you. Your position of not supporting Turbine is great, and I understand. Your cancelling your accounts will do that. Your pulling your support of your plugin only hurts the people still playing it..NOT Turbine. Turbine will continue LONG past your plugin, as will AC. You killing your plugin does NOTHING EXCEPT hurt the people playing the game. (They won't leave AC because of it, trust me...we all have found alternatives plugins). Turbine will not be hurt by your plugin dying along with all the other great ones. PERIOD.
AC is and was a community of players. It is an MMORPG. People (at least in my allegiance) help EACH OTHER. We help EACH OTHER enjoy the gameplay experience. That's the spirit of Decal. A spirit you seem to have forgotten in your attempt to "hurt" Turbine.
Goodbye Elgar.
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Fergus_pof
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Its not Elgar you should be upset with its Turbine. Regardless of Elgars views or your views of Elgars views, If you really support eltank why doesn't everyone who is so upset that it is gone unsub for one month and threaten turbine of never resubing until they make certain things right with their former customers.
Elgar has nothing to loose here. He can stand all day on his morals and loose nothing. But you can hit turbine in the wallet. Most big companys have no morals when it comes to thier wallets. I doubt organization like this is possible in this arena but I tell you what if its true and 1000+ people are effected by this? Turbine would do whatever they could to right that financial loss for a second month.
Everyone has the right to blame whom ever they want for anything. I don't see how insulting elgar is going to do any good in this case though. It seems that what ever is behind Elgars morals he is not going to change. But I doubt Turbine has such a high standard, I think their definition of standards is much different than most.
Don't bite the hand that feeds you, bite the one that abuses you over and over again.
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LamFox
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Jaysus just let it go and move on.
Life will go on without Eltank, without Elgar and without AC when that day comes.
Plug it in, unplug it, stick it up your jumper for all I care, but for cryin out loud get on with it and move on.
At the end of the day its just a game and no one really cares.
N-E-X-T
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Geezer_Ed
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Minor correction Lam
Yes, it is just a game
Obviously, people do care.....look at the number of postings.
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Aenema_TD
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Plz Lock the thread, its all nonsense....buncha ticked off people vs one sour individual.
if you are done El then dont reply to anything. let this crap go. Any problems I ever had with turbine I called them and finished it with someone
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Crelic_MT
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I was going to lock it in a few days anyway. I was kinda leaving it open so people can get their frustrations out in one spot instead of littering the boards with one post wonders.
So.. it's still doing it's job for now =) And it really hasn't caused any problems either. Everyone has stayed relatively calm on both sides with their response and there are still a few constructive posts happening too.
-C
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Volthorn
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*cry*...... this is your emote huh elgarl......just stop posting here and let the people who "play" ac move on to the better plugins since your plugin was junk anyways. we all know why you pulled the plug for real anyway
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Arch_Magi
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Look on the bright side Elgar, you aren't alone in Turbine and their screwed up billing practices.
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Xieish
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That's the thing, ElGar is acting like Turbine specifically set out to give him the screws. Like they said "Man we hate ElGar, how can we ruin his weekend? We don't even have access to his coffee to pee in!"
Yeah it was stupid, a mistake, unfortunate, etc, but it wasn't personal and that is why I affirm that ElGar is overreacting like a little kid.
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Arch_Magi
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So where are the blasts on Turbine?
Sure, it's fine to single out one person who is "overreacting" to something, but I don't see people "overreacting" to the company that is doing it month after month after month and is doing nothing about it.
If Turbine hadn't "added nukes to the fireball", then Elgar wouldn't have "gone off". That is the plain and simple truth.
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Duri_Gallant
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Arch Magi,
I am still steamed about the pre-order issue. I am trying to focus my anger in one direction at a time.
AND...
Since I am glad El-Tank is gone there is no issue for me. *shrug*
Sure Turbine has made a lot of mistakes but most of those mistakes have been made by past design teams and producers. I do not know why but I have more faith in the current design team though that faith has slowly been eroding. 
~Duri
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KaBOOM_SC
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Didn't turbine make a public apology? Shouldn't this satisfy ElgraL's wishes?
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Arch_Magi
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KaBOOM_SC posted:
Didn't turbine make a public apology? Shouldn't this satisfy ElgraL's wishes?
If they did, I sure as heck didn't see it.
Duri_Gallant posted:
Sure Turbine has made a lot of mistakes but most of those mistakes have been made by past design teams and producers. I do not know why but I have more faith in the current design team though that faith has slowly been eroding.
Well, the "past design teams and producers" thing doesn't apply to what happened to my account, Elgars account, or Shrivas account, as all of them have happened in the past 2 months. Couple that with the "bang up job" they did on the Rank Chain and Housing exploit in the botched "14-Day Trial" (which is less than 2 weeks old), and I honestly don't see any difference between "old and new" teams.
But be that as it may. Old team or new, they still refuse to address the entire UCMing issue where they should ... by perm-banning people who get caught at the credit card level so that if you have 1 or 2 or 20 accounts and get busted 3 times for UCMing (heck, I'd rather they make it more harsh than that), then you can NEVER use that Credit Card number for AC again. Smack around the "professional" UCMers, and maybe some of the "amatures" will sit up and take notice and not risk it.
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Xieish
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UCMers still pay the monthly fees (some of them multiple), and Turbine is not in a financial state with AC1 to just let all of those accounts go. Maybe if it were stopped in the beginning, when pops were awesome and it was the second biggest MMO behind EQ, but not today.
edit: My ElTank works just fine, and I still think ElGar is acting like a child. I don't need the guy to come back and fix it, he can take a hike.
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Niarlan
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Email from support on 11/3....
Dear Customer:
We recently discovered that some customer accounts were over-billed this month. Your account may be one of these. We have identified the source of this mistake and we will refund any excess charges as quickly as possible. There is no action required on your part. Should you have any billing questions or concerns arising from this, please contact us at accountsupport@turbine.com.
We apologize for any inconvenience this might cause and thank you for your continued loyalty and support of Turbine.
Thank you,
The Turbine Support Team
So they did apologize....
Nia
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Migy_AC
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IIRC , part of the reason EL was ticked was because Turbine didn't respond to his email to that address.
He had a question pertaining to being billed on a closed account.
He had a concern that their mistake cost him money.
He emailed them and got no reply at all.
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Chazcon
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Hah this makes me laugh. Go ElgarL! Proof once again that AC players are a bunch of no-life bottom feeders.
Turbine screwed up my billing and double billed me twice in my last three months that I played as well. Fitting, somehow. Funny, they didn't reimburse me for the long-distance phone calls I had to make to clear it up.
The funniest part of all, is where Gouru ran into the operating room with a chain saw as soon as the patient's heartbeat blipped once.
I am happy to say I do not miss AC at all. Such a relief!
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Ezekiel_ibn_Buzi
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Oh noooo. You dont miss AC one bit do you. Hence the reason you're posting on the AC sites still....
EZ
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Sangria
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The future of ElTank?
There isn't one. It's gone, over and done with.
Elgarl put it out there for free for years. He put a lot of thought and work into his program. He worked his butt off getting it up when the expansions came out.
So what if he shut down the server for it, does it really matter if Tank went down now or later? Eventually it would have been gone no matter what.
If Elgarl don't feel like wasting his time on a FREE plugin for a game he no longer plays - then who are we to complain? He took care of us for years.
As for his issues with Turbine - they are his and none of our business.
Eventually a plugin will come out that will do what Tank did and more. We just have to wait a while. Even Tank wasn't built in a day.
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Virindi-Inquisitor
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>> Eventually a plugin will come out that will do what Tank did and more.
Assuming there is anyone left who is willing to write one.
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Virindi --- ****Virindi Plugins FAQ**** http://www.virindi.net/wiki/index.php/Virindi_Plugins_FAQ http://www.virindi.net - Virindi Tank, Follower, Integrator, Reporter, VCS5, XPHelper, Item Tool, HUDs, etc... Decal Core Dev - http://www.decaldev.com
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BeeksNClaws
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"As for his issues with Turbine - they are his and none of our business."
Um no. He has been posting "his business" on every public board around and engaging in debate about it with the posters.
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Crelic_MT
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Sorry guys, gotta lock this one up.. getting kinda high in the postcount.
I guess it can be reposted if you guys feel you still need a discussion to get it off your chest as long as it stays good like this was =)
Thanks,
C
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