Chazcon
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Question has been answered, the thread has degraded.
http://forums.acdev.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=23009#23009
Add these entries to C:\Windows\System32\drivers\etc\hosts (use Notepad to edit):
127.0.0.1 insanity-inc.org
127.0.0.1 www.insanity-inc.org
Then Start > Run and: ipconfig /flushdns
Voila!
Thank you Gawa!
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Chazcon - Aluvian swordsman
You say, "FOR THE VITAE!"
Ru tells you, "CHAZ!"
Simply Red tells you, "I am SO not recovering your body!"
-- Good times.
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-Logan_Conrad-
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Working great for me so far after doing this fix!!
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coasty
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This delay problem started this morning for me, it was loading just fine yesterday. Unfortunately, my system won't let me save the edited Hosts file even though I'm in admin mode. My system is insisting that the Hosts file is in use, by what program I have no clue as the system error message isn't giving me that info.
This does, though, indicate a design flaw in Decal. It shouldn't be taking 2 or more minutes (as it's doing on my system) for Decal to load when that web site is down. Even after the Decal icon appears in the task bar it's taking another 45 or so seconds before Decal will respond to mouse clicks (i.e. to bring up the configuration window). On my system, at least, that's over 3 minutes for Decal to completely load, which is far too long. Whether the flaw is just in that it's trying to connect to insanity.org in the first place, or just too many attempts to re-connect before moving on, is a good question. I'm sure insanity.org will be back up relatively soon, but this will inevitably happen again. This needs to have a priority fix and re-release.
Anyway, why is Decal trying to connect to insanity.org at start up, what's at insanity.org that Decal needs to look at???
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_Rascal_
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There could be an anti-virus/spyware program trying to "protect" you from changing the hosts file.
Try safe mode?
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-Adolf-
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what about the crashes 3 hours ingame?
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Hazridi
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DenAgent is a signed binary, so it checks the cert provider to see if the signature is correct. This is actually unexpected and unwanted behaviour.
In any case, if you do this -- be warned that it will cause problems in the future if you do not remove the hosts entries, particularly when installing the next version of Decal.
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Cloudstrife716
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tag so i remember to remove this on next release of Decal
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Furay_the_Less
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Tag
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Arch_Magi
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coasty posted:
Anyway, why is Decal trying to connect to insanity.org at start up, what's at insanity.org that Decal needs to look at???
That is what I wanna know.
More to the point ... what, if any, information is being passed back to that server for possible data collection?
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Drakier
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Haz already said..
DenAgent and Decal in general are now signed applications with a certificate validating it's authenticity.
When you launch Decal, it attempts to verify and validate the certificate by connecting with th ecertificate and comparing notes basically.
It's not expected behavior and as Haz has said.. we're trying to stop it from doing that. We don't want it happening any more than you do.
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Chazcon
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Good to hear, Drak.
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Chazcon - Aluvian swordsman
You say, "FOR THE VITAE!"
Ru tells you, "CHAZ!"
Simply Red tells you, "I am SO not recovering your body!"
-- Good times.
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Lilstarr
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Tag
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-paradoxlost-
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To clarify a bit, Windows, on behalf of DenAgent, is contacting insanity-inc.org to download the CA's certificate revocation list. It does this to make sure the certificate that signed DenAgent hasn't been revoked.
It sends no data to the server, it only pulls the one file. If you want to see exactly what it's downloading, view the certificate and look at the CRL Distribution Points entry.
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Arch_Magi
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Ok, next questions.
1) Why does it need to contact any server at all.
2) Is anything from insanity-inc.org needed to run Decal programs that don't use any plugins from insanity-inc.org? (ie I run exactly 2 plugins, when Treestats is running, so why do I need anything from insanity-inc.org? Aren't they just for Insane Bot?)
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Drakier
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Quote Arch-Magi:
=====================================
Ok, next questions.
1) Why does it need to contact any server at all.
2) Is anything from insanity-inc.org needed to run Decal programs that don't use any plugins from insanity-inc.org? (ie I run exactly 2 plugins, when Treestats is running, so why do I need anything from insanity-inc.org? Aren't they just for Insane Bot?)
=====================================
#1 has been answered a few times now. It's attempting to verify the certificate. That's why it is contacting the server.
#2 the reason it is contacting insanity-inc.org is because that's where the certificate is assigned from. That's Mekle's server, and he's the one with the Certificate. It has nothing to do with the plugins or insane bot. It's because DenAgent itself is signed.
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Maddy_ACEDL
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<< Why does it need to contact any server at all. >>
It really doesn't, which is why it sounds like they will be removing it.
Otherwise it is just a security check to make sure the certificate issued before is still valid. Kind of my understanding anyways.
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Arch_Magi
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Drakier posted:
#1 has been answered a few times now. It's attempting to verify the certificate. That's why it is contacting the server.
Ok, let me rephrase the question then.
Why do we need this certificate at all?
[Edit]
Nevermind, Maddy answered it. You don't need it, it was apparently put in there for no good reason.
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Hazridi
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No, it was never 'put in', it was an unexpected side effect of DenAgent being a managed application that was not anticipated.
Seriously Arch, what is your issue?
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Drakier
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Arch-Magi: Haz already answered your question before you even asked it.
DenAgent has some managed components. Those components are signed to ensure validity. They are signed with a certificate from insanity-inc.org. As a side-effect, Windows feels the need to check the certificate on those signed components. It is unintended and will hopefully be removed soon.
It seems as though you keep trying to make something out of nothing. It's not like Decal is sending your account information to the developers.. and any amount of research would have shown the exact cause.. either on these forums (in this thread) or in the ACDev forums on a similar thread.
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Hazridi
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Or -- Goddess forbid -- actually READING the damn thread before you post on it.
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Arch_Magi
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Hazridi posted:
No, it was never 'put in', it was an unexpected side effect of DenAgent being a managed application that was not anticipated.
Seriously Arch, what is your issue?
My issue is that I'm just trying to ask a simple question to learn something and people are jumping down my back left and right for asking an obvious question. The code was intentionally put in there (code that goes out and searches for another web site to report home to "momma" just doesn't magically appear) and I am wondering why it was done so. I didn't know if it was some sort of spyware for a program that I don't use, it had a legitimate purpose, it was used in conjuction with the ability of Decal to remotely disable plugins that you guys (or the Application Authors) don't want, or whatever. Excuse me for asking questions.
What is your issue?
Drakier posted:
It seems as though you keep trying to make something out of nothing. It's not like Decal is sending your account information to the developers.
Yeah, and went the Decal Devs keep making it sound as if the people who are asking simple questions as to "why" are all paranoid, it tends to feed that paranoia. Sometimes a simple answer without the "Christmas time" or "What is your issue" comments will stop that sort of thing.
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Hazridi
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Actually, it does magically appear when you tell Visual Studio to sign a managed executable with a certificate. I thought you were a developer?
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-paradoxlost-
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Rather rudimentary reading ability would have told you from my post that WINDOWS, not decal is checking the cert.
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Arch_Magi
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Hazridi posted:
Actually, it does magically appear when you tell Visual Studio to sign a managed executable with a certificate. I thought you were a developer?
I am a Developer, and I have never had a single thing in Visial Studio pop up and report back to insanity-inc.org in my 16+ years of programming.
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Hazridi
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Arch-Magi quote since VN doesn't let non-insiders do quotes: Yeah, and went the Decal Devs keep making it sound as if the people who are asking simple questions as to "why" are all paranoid, it tends to feed that paranoia. Sometimes a simple answer without the "Christmas time" or "What is your issue" comments will stop that sort of thing.
I did that before you even posted. Amazing.
Again, try reading the damn thread.
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Drakier
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Arch-MAgi: I DID answer your question.. paradox answered your question.. HAZ answered your question.. it seems you're the only one still completely confused. You keep asking the same thing over and over again. And you keep getting the same response.
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Hazridi
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Clearly you haven't signed a managed executable with a certificate then. Go do it, so you can put your foot in mouth and shut up already.
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Hazridi of WE, VT, HG, SC Decal Core Dev - http://www.decaldev.com - Beta at http://www.decaldev.com/beta
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Chazcon
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here, let me try to be a mediator (new job for me):
The slobbering masses don't understand why Decal is so complicated now - managed app? No idea what that means. All they know is that it connects to somewhere each time you start up (spooky, phear the unknown - hey isn't that what viruses do?), and it's slow as molasses north of Crater Village since the last release...they just want it fast and simple. Typical end-users, who can blame them?
But the Decal devs are thinking, -hey- Decal was never meant to be written, developed, and supported for the average player - who has a hard time buying comps from a vendor, ferchrissakes. Decal started out in uber-geek-land, and filtered down and out to everybody by word of mouth. Now the devs see miles and miles of stupid questions on any forum related to Decal or plugins, and the worst part is the expectation that everyone has, that Decal should work perfectly every time it's launched, and before each new release, should be burned-in and beta tested by half the population of the US. heck, the current version of Decal is still in an ALPHA state!
The devs didn't need to release Decal 3.0 to the public, and I would imagine only did so in order to have problems identified. better to test it on 1000 users systems than on 10 dev's systems. It's all for the good of Decal, really.
Here's a little surprise (are you sitting down?): The Decal devs want Decal to install smoothly, launch quickly everytime, never cause lag, never crash even if the user is running a crappy plugin, never cause lag, and generally be a sweet, perfect piece of software that does really cool things for a game we all love and have enjoyed for years.
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Chazcon - Aluvian swordsman
You say, "FOR THE VITAE!"
Ru tells you, "CHAZ!"
Simply Red tells you, "I am SO not recovering your body!"
-- Good times.
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Arch_Magi
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Hazridi posted:
Clearly you haven't signed a managed executable with a certificate then. Go do it, so you can put your foot in mouth and shut up already.
You're right, I haven't PUT IN THE CODE (which you said wasn't put in) to checked for a certificate in my program, because I find they cause more problems than they solve.
Why aren't the REST of the Decal programs and applications using them if they are so needed?
The bottome line is this. Most of the apps out there AREN'T signed. I was just wondering why this one was, then YOU jump down my throat for asking questions.
"Well excuuuuusseee me!" - Steve Martin
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Hazridi
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If you want to know WHY DenAgent is signed, it's because it seemed like a good idea at the time. In the future, I would suggest asking the actual question you would like to know the answer to, instead of asking a different question and hoping I can read your mind.
There is no code that was added to DenAgent for checking the cert.
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Drakier
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ok.. let me break this down.
1) DenAgent has managed components which are signed with a certificate to ensure integrity.
2) WINDOWS is what is checking the certificate, not Decal, not DenAgent, not anything else. WINDOWS sees that DenAgent is a managed application and it is signed with a certificate, so it is checking the certificate to see if it is valid or has expired (much the same way as SSL certificates are checked when you go to an HTTPS site).
3) We didn't ADD code in to check this stuff, as it is PART of windows, and the Security Services that are installed. WINDOWS is the one checking the cert. All we did was sign the application with the certificate.
http://technet2.microsoft.com/WindowsServer/en/Library/b6782aa5-94da-4544-af6e-600aea60d6051033.mspx?mfr=true
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Arch_Magi
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Hazridi posted:
If you want to know WHY DenAgent is signed, it's because it seemed like a good idea at the time. In the future, I would suggest asking the actual question you would like to know the answer to, instead of asking a different question and hoping I can read your mind.
You mean like my FIRST question?
Arch_Magi posted:
coasty posted:
Anyway, why is Decal trying to connect to insanity.org at start up, what's at insanity.org that Decal needs to look at???
That is what I wanna know.
More to the point ... what, if any, information is being passed back to that server for possible data collection?
To which Para ANSWERED the question without some flippant comment.
Then I asked more questions, then I get the "tag team" from you and Drak.
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Maddy_ACEDL
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<< More to the point ... what, if any, information is being passed back to that server for possible data collection? >>
None it sounds like.
And thanks Haz and Drakier for clarifying things up.
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Arch_Magi
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Maddy_ACEDL posted:
<< More to the point ... what, if any, information is being passed back to that server for possible data collection? >>
None it sounds like.
Exactly, that was my main concern, that no additional information was being gathered.
Not only for my own interest, but because I know that "pishing" is on everyones mind and some people are too afraid to ask the questions that are on their minds, for fear of either looking like a fool or because people will flame them.
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Drakier
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I said it in one of my first replies..
it is contacting the server (and THAT server) to verify the certificate. That is all. Where in there can it even be implied or assumed that ANY other data transmission is going on? Just because I didn't explicitly say it wasn't. And if you would have read the TECHNICAL thread relating to this on the ACDev forums, you would have seen Packet Dumps and Ethereal traces showing the data that is being sent back and forth, and you wouldn't have even needed to ask.. not that you needed to anyway because I thought that our answers were pretty clear and not-needing more clarification.. obviously you were not able to understand those posts initially so you felt you had to keep posting.
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Arch_Magi
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No need to move it to another board, after all, that is why IGN set up this board.
BTW, what exactly does DenAgent do?
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-paradoxlost-
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It eats babies
(ever looked at the properties for the decal icon on your desktop?)
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Arch_Magi
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-paradoxlost- posted:
It eats babies
(ever looked at the properties for the decal icon on your desktop?)
Decal isn't installed on my work machine, where I am now.
Besides, you could have most likely answered the question in the same amount of letters that it took you to not asnwer it.
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Drakier
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move it to another board?
it STARTED on the ACDev board and was moved here. The REAL information is on the ACDev board.
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Chazcon
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umm...I just thought I was being helpful.
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LingMei
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Arch, DenAgent IS Decal.
Decal has an entire group of developers, and has its own site, (and always has) and its own forums. It is where all the developers can easily facilitate communication and improvements, plug-in developers can get information on the changes and issues, and to a lesser extent, end-users can go there to get assistance from Plug-In developers. This board is not the only one in existance about Decal and related plug-ins. 
The fact that the application is managed and signed is a good thing, just believe that. In simple terms, it assures you that you are running the REAL "Verified" Decal, and not an imposter.
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Arch_Magi
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Drakier posted:
move it to another board?
it STARTED on the ACDev board and was moved here. The REAL information is on the ACDev board.
Yeah, I read that thread and you know what? There is less information there about "why" and "what DenAgent is".
LingMei posted:
Arch, DenAgent IS Decal.
Actually after doing some looking, I see another post that says that DenAgent "isn't Decal", hence even more confusion and the need for a "straight answer". 
http://forums.ac.turbine.com/showpost.php?p=6641&postcount=21
Well that would be true if the server had the code for the leveling aid, or if decal worked as some sort of proxy client *which it doesn't* but then again if your client lost con to the server dont you think decal did too? Anyway yes denagent runns in th system tray when the client isnt running, but you know what....denagent isnt decal!!! denagent is just a control and loader app for the actualy decal plugin. It detects the presense of the client, and loads to approprate plugins to do their jobs, if the cleint isnt running, ie has crashed, got dissconected or blown up, decal isnt doing anything...nothing at all, except waiting for the client to startup and login again...
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Chazcon
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Arch, at this point in a bar on Friday night, I would drag you out kicking and screaming before you got us all killed.
You'd thank me for it later
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DenAgent is not "Decal".
DenAgent is the configuration tool and enabler of decal. It's just the user interface outside of the game. It plays a minor role in injection, but after that the real decal takes over.
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DenAgent = Decal (Interface)
Decal = DenAgent
(For the end user, it is the same thing. When you click on DenAgent, the options there are options for Decal, not for plug-ins. Paradox is right, but for simple terms and simple explanations, and for most end-users, it is much easier to understand it as the same thing.)
Think of it as just the name of the icon you click to bring up the "Decal Window" on your desktop.
Decal itself is a FRAMEWORK only, and not a plug-in. If all you have installed is Decal, you will not have any additional features in Asheron's Call.
Plug-ins are designed to work with Decal (DenAgent), using its framework, and with that framework, they give the player additional capabilities.
Think of it like a car. Decal is the metal frame. With just that, you're not going anywhere, ever. Then you get an Engine, and a Transmission, and Brakes, and Electric System, etc. etc. etc. Each one of those (plug-ins) does something different, but they all require you have your metal frame to work.
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Chazcon posted:
Arch, at this point in a bar on Friday night, I would drag you out kicking and screaming before you got us all killed.
You'd thank me for it later
Actually, you're right. I think I'm going to uninstall Decal, all the plugins, and remove Asheron's Call from all but one of my PCs (for Vault Staff work), go to the /marketplace and drop all my loot off all but 1 of my accounts and move on to Vanguard and other things.
Enjoy.
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CRAP I gotta get to the Marketplace NOW!
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Arch_Magi posted:
LingMei posted:
Arch, DenAgent IS Decal.
Actually after doing some looking, I see another post that says that DenAgent "isn't Decal", hence even more confusion and the need for a "straight answer".
denagent isnt decal!!! denagent is just a control and loader app for the actualy decal plugin. It detects the presense of the client, and loads to approprate plugins to do their jobs, if the cleint isnt running, ie has crashed, got dissconected or blown up, decal isnt doing anything...nothing at all, except waiting for the client to startup and login again...
*sigh*
I don't know anything about programming, and I was just trying to use terms that would make it simple to understand, trying to be helpful. Sorry I tried. I guess you want to know a whole lot more about "DenAgent" than I can tell you. There are Decal tutorials and plug-in tutorials out there for those who really want to know how it works.
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LingMei posted:
I don't know anything about programming, and I was just trying to use terms that would make it simple to understand, trying to be helpful. Sorry I tried. I guess you want to know a whole lot more about "DenAgent" than I can tell you. There are Decal tutorials and plug-in tutorials out there for those who really want to know how it works.
I'm not questioning you, or busting on you. I'm confused as to what the "correct answer is", while I've been trying to "Google for the answer" (something I've always had an issue with, because of EXACTLY things like this). Some people say one thing, some people say another, and with as much as Decal has changed from 2.0 to 3.0, it may or may not be right.
Hence why I ask questions, hoping that someone in an official capacity will answer them. Oh well, the point is moot.
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Drakier
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denagent is the user-configurable part of decal. It is what allows the user to interact with the decal components out of game. Things such as Network Filters and Services wouldn't do so well on an in-game editor because of the way Decal works. Not to meantion we have to have a way to update decal and provide diagnostics, etc.
It is also the part that injects decal into the game. It watche windows messages for certain events, and then stuffs decal into the AC process. DenAgent is the magic that makes it all work. Oh.. and it eats babies.
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I'm not official enough for you?
::cries::
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LingMei
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~*~Lingie does some Magic Editing~*~
Drakier posted:
DenAgent stuffs decal into AC. DenAgent is the magic that makes it all work.
Oh.. and it eats babies.
 Drakier
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sheowoof
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Does this stop the AC Client crashes after 3 hrs of running Lifetank?
Thanks
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no
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how do we disable windows from checking certs? im sure it's possible
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Drakier
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that would be a bad idea.
as Haz said in another thread.. these types of "fixes" relate to using a Nuke to kill an ant.
they can also cause futher trouble for you. If you modify your hosts file to "fix" the issue currently, you'll need to modify it back before being able to sucessfull install Decal in the future.
As we've said.. we're working on fixing it and getting a new release out soon. It's only a huge problem when the server goes down, and we're really hoping the server doesn't go down.. so for as long as it remains up (which should be a while) you shouldn't have any problems loading it.
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illusion24
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This is possibly one of the stupidest conversations I've ever read.
Magi, you're a programmer. You should know what a certificate is, and what information is being sent back and forth in one. Heck, you could have just downloaded a freeware packet intercepting program and seen for yourself what is being sent back and forth.
As far as what the different elements of decal do, the original source code behind decal is still public domain and available at http://sourceforge.net/projects/decaldev/ in the CVS repository. You could well just go look for yourself and see what the denagent element of decal does.
All that needs to be said is this:
General user: The decal devs accidentally enabled an obnoxious windows security feature that checks a website everytime the program is run. It's going away.
Power user: Elements of decal are now managed code, with the unwanted side effect that the app is looking for a current certificate everytime it runs. It's going away.
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agnari
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Illusion you missed one:
General user: The decal devs accidentally enabled an obnoxious windows security feature that checks a website everytime the program is run. It's going away.
Power user: Elements of decal are now managed code, with the unwanted side effect that the app is looking for a current certificate everytime it runs. It's going away.
arch-magi go away.
j/k
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Arch_Magi
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illusion24 posted:
This is possibly one of the stupidest conversations I've ever read.
Magi, you're a programmer. You should know what a certificate is, and what information is being sent back and forth in one. Heck, you could have just downloaded a freeware packet intercepting program and seen for yourself what is being sent back and forth.
Yes, I know what a certificate is.
But if you scroll back, that wasn't my initial question.
What I wanted to know was "What, if any, additional information was being sent back to insanity.org?"
I didn't throw out a packet sniffer to check to see if ONLY a cert was being checked. I was taking the Devs on face value and asking questions.
You do remember that there have been "trojans" that were made for Decal that sent back login names and passwords, and I thought this might possibly be something along those lines. Further, it could be another form of Trojan that went out and gathered other non-Asheron's Call information (CC info, a key logger, etc).
As for why I asked why care, I haven't knowingly installed anything from insanity.org. I run ElTank and Treestats. That is all. To the best of my knowledge (and I'm sure someone will set me straight if I'm wrong), those programs never asked me to install anything from the insanity.org site. Which made me think that only one of two things could be happening. One, I had a trojan and my data was being compromised or two, just installing Decal installed something from insanity.org. So I went with asking what does insanity.org put out that Decal would be using. I was then GOING to (and I guess I am now going to) ask, if Decal automatically installs something from insanity.org and it isn't "a problem", then why does it point back to a domain name this is "questionable in name" instead of the "official Decal" website.
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agnari
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isn't insane-org the ole insane-bot buffer run by merkle (spelling??) one of the major decal developers?
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agnari posted:
isn't insane-org the ole insane-bot buffer run by merkle (spelling??) one of the major decal developers?
Yes, but since I have never installed that program on any of my 3 PCs, that is why I am asking the question why any plugin that I have would "check back" any information to his server.
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agnari
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don't think it's a 'plugin' but decal itself that is currently incorrectly looking at/for the certificate.
and as merkle is the one that probably did some of the coding, it's looking at his site.
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When you installed decal a7, you would have read in the release that it had been signed with the Insanity-Inc root certificate, which it also asked you to install.
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coasty
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You know, for the life of me, I don't quite follow how one question by me in, I believe, the 3rd post in this thread, and fully answered by Hazridi (or was it Paraduck) by the 7th or 8th post, could have turned into into such an absurdly long thread in just a matter of hours.
This is pretty much the reason why for years on this board, under three different user names, I've been a 99% Lurker 1% poster, which my total amount of sent messages plainly shows. I try to stay out of these type of threads.
However, this thread has annoyed me so I'm going to stick my oar in anyway...
Arch-Magi, some comments for you to consider.
I've been using Decal since its first public release and in that time span not once, to my knowledge, has Decal done anything other than its stated purpose, i.e. be a wrapper to run AC plugins.
Given that history, your question about what "else" Decal was sending to the insanity.org web site makes no sense, and was somewhat offensive. Offensive because your question also implied that the developers did something sneaky or underhanded in this Decal release, otherwise why ask that question in the first place.
In my original post I called it a "design flaw" which, again considering the history of Decal, was the reasonable assumption for what happened. Hazridi rather plainly stated that was the case, a mistake on their part, and that it would be promptly fixed. That reply by Hazridi said everything that needed to be said.
You really owe the Decal developers an apology.
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<< You do remember that there have been "trojans" that were made for Decal that sent back login names and passwords, and I thought this might possibly be something along those lines. >>
If you are worried about such things then you shold stop using Decal.
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<< You do remember that there have been "trojans" that were made for Decal that sent back login names and passwords, and I thought this might possibly be something along those lines. >>
If you are worried about such things then you shold stop using Decal.
---------
Maddy, that was pretty much the reasoning behind why I sent my second post, the one just above yours.
His original post basically implied that this was exactly what the Decal developers had done, and his last post, the one containing the above quote, seems to be an attempt to put a better face on it. If that was his original thought then he should have plainly stated so in his original post. It would still have been a case of lack of thought on his part, but at least it would have been more forthright and somewhat less offensive.
The history of Decal development and the fact that web site in question was that of a Decal developer meant that, whatever the problem was, it clearly was NOT a trojan. In any case, if ArchMagi really thought this was a possibility, then his question was poorly worded and clearly directed to the wrong people. That much should have been evident to him before he made his post.
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Maddy_ACEDL posted:
<< You do remember that there have been "trojans" that were made for Decal that sent back login names and passwords, and I thought this might possibly be something along those lines. >>
If you are worried about such things then you shold stop using Decal.
I'm worried about being in a car wreck, but that doesn't mean I have to stop driving. There are things you can do to minimize that risk short of stop driving.
My question was simple, and para finally answered it. Apparently something was installed during the Decal install that reported back to a website other than the official Decal site.
If you sit back and remove all the "emotion", you will see that my questions are very logical.
Why, if I installed only the base Decal program, ElTank, and Treestats, is "something" looking back to a website that isn't where any of those programs come from?
Well, after 3 pages, that has finally been answered. Because as part of the basic Decal install, it installed some other "program" from insanity.org and that is the program that is "looking back" to its web site.
To that casual player, who often see's their anti-virus program trigger over such events, this may sound confusing. If I install something from the Decal site, why isn't it reporting back to the Decal site? That is all.
You have to remember, like it or not, because you have an "open alpha", and have been for the better part of a year now, you are going to get people running this software who aren't as versed as the Decal Developers. Further, you have to remember, that there are people like me, who ask questions, not only because I want to know, but because I help run the 3rd largest guild on Harvestgain, people come to me to have questioned answered.
And just to head off your next statement, alot of people don't want to go to a dozen different web sites and go through the hassle of remembering what site is where for what plugin and set up a dozen accounts on various forums just to ask 1 or 2 questions. The come here and "lurk" for the answers, and those answers don't come unless there are people willing to ask questions.
Many of those lukers have learned that there are people out there who think it is below them to answer a question directly, because (rightfully or not) they end of flaming that person for "answering the same question over and over again". Well, to MOST people, they don't see it that way, they see it as their FIRST question, and don't like it when someone jumps down their throats, so they PM people they know who won't jump down their throats to see if they will answer the question or at least ask it, because they have no fear of being "jumped".
coasty posted:
His original post basically implied that this was exactly what the Decal developers had done, and his last post, the one containing the above quote, seems to be an attempt to put a better face on it. If that was his original thought then he should have plainly stated so in his original post. It would still have been a case of lack of thought on his part, but at least it would have been more forthright and somewhat less offensive.
The history of Decal development and the fact that web site in question was that of a Decal developer meant that, whatever the problem was, it clearly was NOT a trojan. In any case, if ArchMagi really thought this was a possibility, then his question was poorly worded and clearly directed to the wrong people. That much should have been evident to him before he made his post.
Yes, that was my thought, not to accuse the Decal Devs of anything, but rather to just have questions answered. Questions that lead to other questions, which lead to other questions. It is part of my inquisitive nature.
I understand that Decals history is good, but I also understand that the plugins have had a few "questionable" moments (like the one plugin that was actually a phishing tool to get login names and passwords so the author could raid the accounts and sell the stuff on eBay). I was asking my questions because I had seen "something" reporting back to a website that I had not downloaded a utility from.
My question(s) may have been worded poorly, for that I am sorry, I will try to do better.
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Quote Arch-Magi:
========================================
Because as part of the basic Decal install, it installed some other "program" from insanity.org and that is the program that is "looking back" to its web site.
========================================
You STILL don't get it. There is no other "program" installed with the Decal install. I'm seriously questioning what kind of developer you are based on thw way you're posting. A developer who's had ANY experience in the field shouldn't be saying such things.
Decal was SIGNED by a certificate.. similar to the way Drivers and other applications are to ensure validity. Microsoft signs most of their applications, and most of the tested drivers are signed by the Microsoft HCL.
There is no program that is part of decal "looking back" to it's website. The Microsoft Cryptographic Service Provider and other Certificate services are checking the certificate which Decal was signed with.
If you seriously don't understand, then stop posting things claiming them as fact.. all you'll do is confuse people as it seems you are confused.
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Drakier posted:
Quote Arch-Magi:
========================================
Because as part of the basic Decal install, it installed some other "program" from insanity.org and that is the program that is "looking back" to its web site.
========================================
You STILL don't get it. There is no other "program" installed with the Decal install. I'm seriously questioning what kind of developer you are based on thw way you're posting. A developer who's had ANY experience in the field shouldn't be saying such things.
Decal was SIGNED by a certificate.. similar to the way Drivers and other applications are to ensure validity. Microsoft signs most of their applications, and most of the tested drivers are signed by the Microsoft HCL.
There is no program that is part of decal "looking back" to it's website. The Microsoft Cryptographic Service Provider and other Certificate services are checking the certificate which Decal was signed with.
If you seriously don't understand, then stop posting things claiming them as fact.. all you'll do is confuse people as it seems you are confused.
-paradoxlost- posted:
When you installed decal a7, you would have read in the release that it had been signed with the Insanity-Inc root certificate, which it also asked you to install.
Hence why I used the word "program" in "quotes". I know it is a cert, but a "program" can be set up to have one or not. In this case, it does, and it is this program that is causing the the OS to go out to the web site and check for that cert. Once again, you are missing the point, MOST PEOPLE WHO READ THIS FORUM ARE NOT PROGRAMMERS, THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT THE MINUTIA, THEY JUST WANT TO KNOW WHY A "PROGRAM" IS GOING OUT TO THE WEB, TO A SITE NAMED INSANITY-INC.ORG, AND IF IT IS SOME SORT OF TROJAN OR NOT. You can rant and rave and post code fragments to your hearts content, but that will do little to quell the fears/questions that the COMMON PERSON has.
As for what kind of programmer I am, I could honestly care less what you think of me. As for what I think of you, if you care, I think you are the kind of programmer who is caught up in the details and constantly talk in "geek speak" with other programmers, you forgot how to "interpret" the technical jargon to the average person so that they can understand it. I am sure you are very good at what you do Drak, I am very good at what I do, act as the go between for my people who aren't versed in "geek speak" and just want to know "Why is my anti-virus program going off and why is Decal looking to some web site named insanity-inc.org?"
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-Adolf-
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just download the cert and it wont crash anymore
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Maddy_ACEDL
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<< MOST PEOPLE WHO READ THIS FORUM ARE NOT PROGRAMMERS, THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT THE MINUTIA, THEY JUST WANT TO KNOW WHY A "PROGRAM" IS GOING OUT TO THE WEB, TO A SITE NAMED INSANITY-INC.ORG, AND IF IT IS SOME SORT OF TROJAN OR NOT. >>
You were the only one I saw asking this and to the best of my knowledge you don't represent most people.
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Arch_Magi
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Maddy_ACEDL posted:
<< MOST PEOPLE WHO READ THIS FORUM ARE NOT PROGRAMMERS, THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT THE MINUTIA, THEY JUST WANT TO KNOW WHY A "PROGRAM" IS GOING OUT TO THE WEB, TO A SITE NAMED INSANITY-INC.ORG, AND IF IT IS SOME SORT OF TROJAN OR NOT. >>
You were the only one I saw asking this and to the best of my knowledge you don't represent most people.
Get a Manager to Authorize me to post my Private Messages, and you will see otherwise.
Not to mention, you apparently missed this post on this thread ...
coasty posted:
Anyway, why is Decal trying to connect to insanity.org at start up, what's at insanity.org that Decal needs to look at???
... which pre-dates ALL of my posts, and which prompted my initial question.
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Hazridi
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Just so you know, Mekle owns the machine that is colocated and serving both Insanity-Inc.org and Decaldev.com.
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Drakier
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I don't think it is a problem so much of what you wanted to ask, but how you were asking it.
coasty and you basically asked the same thing, the BIG difference being that coasty didn't ever imply anything to the effect of "decal is stealing people's information" which is what your post reeked of.
asking questions and getting answer is fine.. but implying or even hinting at something as serious as phishing or any other malware without warrant, cause, or proof is just plain insulting and rude.
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Hazridi
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Yeah, and the question was already answered too. ;p
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Digero
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Arch, give it up. There is no conspiracy. There is no trojan. Just a simple mistake that will be fixed in the future, as Haz said 70 posts ago.
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-Foxy-
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as someone who doesnt know from squat, is this something that is hard to fix? like, it will take several months or so? or is this an easy fix that will be working come patch day?
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Hazridi
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It will be fixed when we release 7a, which will occur once we stop finding bugs that really need to be fixed in the core filter set.
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-Foxy-
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ummmm....
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Brytek
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I think that means that if the next patch requires a new build then the answer is yes. If it only requires the memlocs being updated then no.
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illusion24
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No, it means that there are a number of bugs they're working on fixing in the new build, and this bug is one of them. 7a could be released before the next monthly update or after it; depends how long it takes them to fix the bugs.
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Abdul_TD
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I am not a programmer and even I understood it within the first few posts by the devs on the subject...not sure why it is taking you so long to figure it out Arch.
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Drakier
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I wouldn't expect a response from Arch-Magi anytime soon..
seems he's unsubbed all but one of his accounts and uninstalled Decal.. and since he uninstalled Decal, my feeling is that he doesn't really care about ACUtilities anymore. *shrug* (he's blaming it on the Decal Devs.. me in specific I think)
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Arch_Magi
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Drakier posted:
I wouldn't expect a response from Arch-Magi anytime soon..
seems he's unsubbed all but one of his accounts and uninstalled Decal.. and since he uninstalled Decal, my feeling is that he doesn't really care about ACUtilities anymore. *shrug* (he's blaming it on the Decal Devs.. me in specific I think)
Actually I unsubbed all but one of my AC accounts for reasons that have zero to do with you or Decal. They have mainly to do with years of broken promises by Turbine, excessive downtime, horrible lag and packet loss after an "upgrade", the lack of a viable player base, and Turbine ignoring the requests of the majority of their remaining player base to make leveling by Questing viable and not by "running macros and camping in Fiuns, EO or PotB".
But you are correct, I no longer much care about Decal or AC Utilities, I will play AC on my one remaining account "100% as Turbine designed it" for the remainder of my AC playing days. Now, if you want to "blame" on yourself for making me uninstall Decal, feel free put yourself at the center of attention, but it won't be true.
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Drakier
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that isn't how you made it sound when you tried to intimidate me in Private Messages, but if that's how you want to spin it for the public, that's your prerogative.
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