Malavir
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Subject:
I crash to desktop when switching toons.
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I know it has to do with decal. Is there anything I can do to fix this? Or is this just a part of AC life w/decal? It doesn't happen everytime, but very consistantly I'll crash to my desktop when I log out a toon and try to log in another. It's really annoying but I figured I just had to live with it or live w/o decal. Everything appears to be updated in decal except for 1 bos has a red x instead of a black check. Version 1 Plugin Surrogate. Althou is says its version 2.9.4.0.
Anyway, if there is something I can do let me know.
Thanks
I use ElTank, LTx, Sort it!, Make it!, Mule Shopper, Mule Trader, Portal Helper and DHS. I don't have all the plug-ins running at the same time however. Usually it's only 1 or 2.
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Arch_Magi
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I crash to desktop when switching toons.
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Happens to me to, but I just learn to deal with it.
Maybe it is just dumb luck, but it seems to happen more often when I "quickly" switch between toons. If I log out, then immediately log in on another, it crashes 50% of the time or more. If I log out, count to 10, then that percentage seems to drop to about 15-20% of the time.
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Drakier
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Subject:
I crash to desktop when switching toons.
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it could be a side-effect of plugins taking a while to uninitialize and shutdown.
If you attempt to start quickly after, before everything has a chance to close up and shutdown, then it is possible you'd get issues which could cause a crash.
It's best to log out and wait a few seconds before attempting to log in a separate character.
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GengisCon
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Subject:
I crash to desktop when switching toons.
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happens to me all day long...this is something that is an issue for many folks. Switch toons, CTD, come back in, try to log in, character still logging out, try back in right away, in fine.
edit: happens most with El Tank, but if I only have Lifetank, it still happens.
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TheMasterKato
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I crash to desktop when switching toons.
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Yeah me too does with both Eltank or LT. Although I have reported the error to Microsoft! 
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Chazcon
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I crash to desktop when switching toons.
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Happens to me regularly when El Tank is active - does not happen at all when I uncheck El Tank.
I just deal with it. I don't run El Tank all the time, mostly use it to run places using El Nav. It's faster and easier to create a route in El Tank than to make an AC Tool macro.
Although, I have been using El Nav to create a route, then taking the data from the generated route file and pasting that in a GatreNav.mac file - a fast way to make an Ac Tool route macro.
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Malavir
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I crash to desktop when switching toons.
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Well I guess I should be happy it's a known issue and not just happening to me.
I don't think it has anything to do with how slow or fast I log another toon. I can log out, eat lunch and come back 1 hr later and get booted. It's quite random. I could do a study as to the frequency of when it happens with which plug-ins but I was more interested to know whether this was isoltaed to just me or a broader issue.
Hopefully it is an issue which can be resolved.
Thanks
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Chazcon
Title: FOR THE VITAE!
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I crash to desktop when switching toons.
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I beleive it's an issue known to the Decal devs and I assume they will fix it during the development of Decal, on the way to getting a release version.
I also think we may see AC expire before this happens.
If I thought that AC only had 9 months of life left (as I firmly beleive) I wouldn't waste any time on Decal, so if the devs are in this frame of mind, I couldn't find fault with them at all.
I appreciate the work they have done just to get us a working Alpha, post-ToD. They certainly didn't have to do even that.
I truly miss old plugins like RoboChef, Nerfus Buffus, and especialy Bandit Sight. But those are gone for good, and I'm thankful for what we have right now.
I've learned AC Tool (six years into my AC experience, lol) and have written a few sad little macros that try to replicate those plugins. It's a sobering experience, and really makes you see what a plugin dev is up against, and gives you some insight into the uber-world of a Decal dev. And they program in advanced languages - AC Tool is like kindergarten-level reading compared to the 'Calculus 401' that the real devs use.
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Chazcon - Aluvian swordsman
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yaroz_vn
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I crash to desktop when switching toons.
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I see the problem as well. And.. it's usually whenever I open a portal with my level 20 mule, that only lasts like 1 1/2 minutes, then it disappears right as I log in. 
But yeah.. as everyone else stated, it happens whenever I do a quick log out/log in. But with programs like tank (does everything), it is expected that it takes forever to unload. 
And to the person that is posting on every message stating that he doesn't see why people are investing time into a game that he predicts will only last 9 months... why not just unsubscribe from the game, and not waste your time?
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pkorourke
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I crash to desktop when switching toons.
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It is a bigger issue than most people will admit. Whatever people say, we need Decal to make the game enjoyable. The problem occurs mostly with ElTank running, although I now see it happening with other newer plugins.
The fact is, that players are hardly likely to tolerate this for much longer and will slowly and quietly move on, so maybe Chazcon is right. 
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CyranosCottage
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I crash to desktop when switching toons.
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I put in a 256mb video card into my pc and I havent really crashed since then.. but I found it to crash in Trade Mule as well when I used to log in at MP with my bot and try to start it up in a laggy area.
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Malavir
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I crash to desktop when switching toons.
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I have a 1 gig vid card, I don't think that's the issue. I just had acclient crash when logging out and all I had running was LTx.
As far as AC being shut down I don't see it happening. Why would Turdine stop supporting a cash cow.
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Jothony
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I crash to desktop when switching toons.
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Why would Turdine stop supporting a cash cow.
Well the thing is that AC isn't nearly the "cash cow" it once was. Turbine doesn't release hard numbers, but most observers put the estimated number of subscribers at somewhere between 10% and 25% of how many there were in AC's peak years. The servers used to have thousands of players logged in at busy times, now a busy day peaks at 300-400 depending on your server. Most of us agree that they're not likely to shut down AC as long as it's making a profit, but it certainly costs money to keep running, and nobody knows exactly how many subscribers are needed to KEEP it making a profit.
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pookybear348
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I crash to desktop when switching toons.
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yeah but those peak hours with thousands was a number for all the servers combined . in its hay day there have never been more then 600 logged in to a single server such as wintersebb for example. the crashing is decall it does it with no plugins just decal running and is a problem that needs to be addressed with programming not excusses.
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Chazcon
Title: FOR THE VITAE!
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I crash to desktop when switching toons.
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Asheron's Call is most assuredly NOT a 'cash cow'.
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Chazcon - Aluvian swordsman
You say, "FOR THE VITAE!"
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Drakier
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I crash to desktop when switching toons.
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Chazcon: before the release of ToD I'm fairly certain that the input of user account subscriptions was surplus to Turbine... aka.. they've already paid off the developers, hardware, services, etc and still had plenty left over.
At 12.95 a month, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out that it doesn't take a whole lot of accounts to produce a large sum of money... multiply this monthly and you can see that I'm sure Turbine does pretty well with AC still.. It still has quite a large following, and even though many accounts may not log in regularly, they are still paying their monthly fees.
The point that AC drops subscriber base less than what it costs to RUN AC and the servers, and the support staff.. only then do I picture Turbine putting a date on the demise. (which would still be sometime into the future form that point is my guess).
so to more short and simply answer the comment.. AC is a cash cow currently. Maybe not as much as before, but it is still making them money.
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Jothony
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I crash to desktop when switching toons.
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pookybear348 wrote:
"yeah but those peak hours with thousands was a number for all the servers combined . in its hay day there have never been more then 600 logged in to a single server such as wintersebb for example.....it is a problem that needs to be addressed with programming not excusses."
Pooky I'd like to see where you get your numbers from. My numbers come from logging into the game itself back before ToD. When I logged into AC anytime before ToD, the game would tell me (and everyone else who played) how many people were playing on that particular server. When I started playing AC back in Spring 2002 a busy day on the weekend would have 1500+ people on MY server. On a few occasions it topped 2000. My server is Solclaim, a newer server and one of the less populated ones. People who play on the older, more heavily populated servers remember seeing peak populations up closer to 3000, on ONE server.
As far as the crashing goes, it's my belief also that it is related to decal. However I did not address the crashing issue in any way in my previos post, I was merely responding to the "cash cow" comment. Therefore I fail to see how you characterize what I wrote as somehow "making excuses".
Drakier you wrote "before the release of ToD I'm fairly certain that the input of user account subscriptions was surplus to Turbine" If I understand that, you're saying that Turbine has NO significant costs that occur from the ongoing operation of AC or are leftover from the original development of it, and therefore subscription revenue is overwhelmingly profit. That's a very strong claim there. While I'm sure you could hypothesize a bunch of numbers to support that as easily as I could hypothesize a bunch of numbers to argue it, I'd love to see the actual numbers you based that claim on. Could you post a link please?
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Drakier
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I crash to desktop when switching toons.
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You already said numbers.
Think about it for a minute.. you have the number of subscriptions, and you have a general idea of how much money that can relate to.
Think about how old the servers for AC are and how old of a game AC is. Think about the cost of bandwidth and operation of the servers (which are now run by Turbine and not some 3rd party like Microsoft)
Before the release of ToD, I'm pretty sure that the costs had mostly been covered.
The only new costs were the development of AC:ToD. While I don't feel they've paid that off completely yet, I still believe that they can do so with a few more high-subscription months.
I mean honestly.. what NEW has AC had to spend money on besides ToD? We know they haven't upgraded any of the servers in a long time, or added any new ones. They outright PURCHASED those servers from microsoft when they bought the franchise back.
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Ashake
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I crash to desktop when switching toons.
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OK ... forgive me, but back to the original problem 
I've had this issue as well, always with Decal running, occasionally without. I've had it when logged in through Dual Client or the launcher itself. Time for me does not seem to be an issue - however, that being said, I HAVE noticed that if I log out, need to answer the door, phone, or just step away for awhile, 99% of the time when I return, the character will BEGIN to login, then crash, with the little blip saying it lost the server connection. Prior to ToD, I was able to log out to the character selection screen, step away for a bit if necessary, return and log back in as if I'd never left.
The problem occurs universally across my accounts, any time during the day or evening. Drakier, if there is something you'd like me to run as a "check" to see what might be going on, pls advise, I'm happy to help try to track this one down!
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Drakier
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I crash to desktop when switching toons.
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try without plugins and/or filters.
see if you can narrow it down to a specific set of filters and/or plugins.
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Jothony
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I crash to desktop when switching toons.
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Ok, first to the original issue:
I never crash when loggging in, I always crash when logging a character out. Not every time, just sometimes. When I do I get "client has encountered a problem and needs to close blah blah blah". No info at all about the problem. I try to use as few plugins as possible at one time. I rarely have more than 3 on at once when hunting: DHS, Buff Me, and either Ammo Gimp or Find It. Most of my other plugins are non-hunting ones and I pretty much run only one of them at a time, with the hunting plugins turned off.
However there are at least 3-4 variables that affect how often I crash.
First, I use Drak's AC Dual Client, and the more accounts I have logged in, the more likely I am to crash. If I only have one account logged in it's fairly rare. If I have 3 accounts logged in (which only happens when I'm muling) it's fairly frequent. However if I only log in one account directly with the launcher, it can still happen.
Second, the more plugins I run at once the more often I crash. When I use an ID'ing plugin like Find It or Mule Shopper, it seems to happen more often than other types of plugins like Castaway or ammo gimp. However I can leave all plugins turned off while I multiple log to mule and it still happens. It has also happened at least once when I multiple logged with Decal not on at all. I haven't played on just one account with no decal at all in a very long time so I don't know if it will happen under that circumstance.
It also seem to be more likely to occur on the first time I log out after switching to different plugins or logging in another account with AC Dual Client.
Third, my vid card is an nVidia GeForce 6600 GT. Less than a year old, and near to the top of their line. I have tried every one of the 9 drivers available from nVidia that support this card. Some of them make the problem worse, or cause other problems too. NONE of them completely solve the problem, and the newest series of drivers -- the 8x -- doesn't give the best results. I'm using the newest one of the older 7x series. I believe the problem is connected to video memory from all I've read and experienced, but that's as far as my skills can go. I have an Athlon XP 2200 processor, 2GB of RAM and 128MB of video memory so I SHOULD have sufficient system spec's to run OK.
One last thing which I'm not sure is connected, but might be. If I get distracted from the game for long enough to have the game log out my character, I always crash and get a bunch of error messages related to initializing DirectX.
That's all the info that I can think of at present.
Ok, Drakier if you go by the only "hard" numbers I posted, then you have not much more than 3000 total players ingame at any one time. If you go with that as the confirmed number of paid subscriptions, it comes to approximately $40,000 per month. The issue is how many MORE subscriptions are being paid by people who rarely if ever play, and there's no hard numbers available for that. As far as expenses, they have at least the rent/mortgage on one very large office building in a highly developed and very expensive area of the East Coast. That HAS to cost at least $10K per month, perhaps several times that. Then there's the issue of staff. Does Turbine have 5 staffers dedicated to AC, or 15? I have no idea, but I'm sure they're costing some thousands of dollars per month EACH in salary, benefits and taxes. Then there's the utility bills for that large building. Heating, air conditioning and of course electricity to run the servers. There again we have no hard numbers for how much, but I'm guessing at least $5k per month, and $15k is possible with the price of energy today. Since the most bandwith I've ever paid for is 256K DSL, I have no idea how much is needed to run AC, or how much it costs. $5k a month? $10K? More?
I tend to agree that the original development costs of AC should probably be paid off by now. However Turbine DID move all the way across the country TWICE in the last year or two. I'm sure that cost a nice pile of cash. I don't know if they moved back to their own facilities when they went back East, but I think they set up new facilities when they moved West. The AC1 team was definitely part of the move, so AC must have shared at least some of the costs of it. All together they could easily be still carrying debt from the cost of those moves. The last issue I raise is just my personal feelings about one point, with no evidence to back it up at all. I believe that if AC had been a "cash cow" at the time, Microsoft would not have sold it. Would you?
So sure, if you take high end estimates of their income and low end estimates of their expenses, you can easily argue that AC is making $50K+ in profit each month. If you go the other way though, you can just as easily argue that AC is very close to the break-even point. I'm not trying to be a pessimist, just a realist. Everything has it's beginning and it's end. I hope the end of AC is a long time off. But I'm not certain that it IS.
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Hazridi
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I crash to desktop when switching toons.
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The amount of players that play during peak is usually considered about 1/10th to 1/20th the total subscribers, so AC is probably making more like $500,000-800,000 a month in income.
AC Live team is probably 5 or so people, most likely with 1 or 2 doing work for more than just AC every month. Turbine is known for borrowing assets from different teams.
Anyhow, considering they're running more than just one game, you can't really put all of Turbine's expenses as a company onto AC.
If AC wasn't making money, they would shut it down. It's not like they haven't done the same to AC2. 
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Jothony
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I crash to desktop when switching toons.
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Hazridi wrote: "..usually considered", "..probably making", "..probably 5 or so", "..most likely with"
Well apparently you have no more in the way of hard facts than I do. That's the only point I was really trying to make, that we have no way of knowing if AC is still doing great financially or is edging close to the break even point.
The only thing I strongly disagree with you on is the estimate that there is 10 to 20 times as many subscriptions as there are players ingame at peak times.That MAY have been true when the game was much more popular, though it sounds optimistic to me even for back then. In its peak years, I think there may have been 15-25 thousand players ingame total at one time, and the only estimates I've ever heard for total subscriptions for AC back then are 125K-150K. That gives a ratio of more like 6-10 times ingame numbers for total subscriptions. At this late stage of the game I wouldn't be surprised if the paid subs are only 2-3 times the peak number of players, or even less.
I didn't mean to suggest that all of Turbine's expenses should be accounted to AC1, if it sounded that way then I wasn't clear enough.
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Bn_Kleenex
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Subject:
I crash to desktop when switching toons.
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My 2 cents
Running
WinXP
256 GeForce 6800
2Gig Ram
Here's scenario when I crash (new comp, but I've crashed twice with same scenario)
Char A with LTx, playing
Log out Char A
Log in Char B
Use LTx (in anyway)
Log out Char B
Crash
If
Char A with LTx, playing
Log out Char A
Log in Char B
Char B does NOT use LTx
Log out char B
Log Char A back
use LTX
No crsh
This is true for my older comp as well (laptop, shared vid memory) tho it also crashes using Make It (new one doesnt) on multipl chars
Maybe it has something to do with the timer thing (i.e. how fast you move from one char to another) and I just need to wait longer when I intend to use LTx on a different character
Edit: 1 cent re: server populations
3 - 4 years ago, peak time ran up to 2500 in Frostfell alone (and Entire game population was around 15 - 20K). 600 count would be around weee hours of the nite, or right after server opening up
Pre Tod - FF server count was around 400 - 500
Right now, I have no clue lol
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kinslayer271
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I crash to desktop when switching toons.
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Its a decal issue not plugin guys. Same thing with the random crash BS.
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akentjr
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I crash to desktop when switching toons.
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I have this problem also but only on one comp. The other doesn't seem to have the same problem. It happens consistantly on the fourth or fifth log for me so it's predictable and I won't be quitting AC just because I have to type my password every couple hours.
As to your missconception that AC has no future.... All day long I consistanly see 180+ users logged on. This is not just on one server. At peak hours, 300+. Now I'm no rocket scientist but just a little bit of basic math would show you that even if Turbine has 2-3 individuals who have no other duties aside from Asheron's Call, well, you get the idea. Take your pessimism elswhere. You will not find a sypathetic ear on boards used by people to enhance their enjoyment of a game you evidently don't play, or don't want to play.
Josue
WE
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Rodenator
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Subject:
I crash to desktop when switching toons.
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Turbine bought AC back from Microsoft JUST to shut it down? Maybe if all the pessimists sat down and shut up people would not buy into the bs that AC is going to shut down tomorrow. I for 1 have had a great time playing- better than anytime previous to TOD, many of the things a lot of us have wanted implemented in the game have now been done, thus helping us all to have a better time.
Maybe if all the doomsayers were to help build up the playerbase instead of trying to destroy it with negative comments we could actually see more ingame.
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akentjr
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Subject:
I crash to desktop when switching toons.
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The crashing to desktop problem. I was suspicious when I started looking at the configuration of my .NET and .ASP services. I configured the comp I was having the problems with a little looser than the other. Now I have not crashed a single time. It was so bad today, I crashed on every log. Evidently, the problem is not solely with Decal nor the plugins. The problem may be the compatibility of your network configuration and the demands that Decal and the plugins are putting on it. Have no idea if that is correct, but it fixed mine and I can't get Decal to locate the .DLLs on half my plugins, hehe. One comp is updating like mad, the other I am using the external update on. It works great, hehe.
Josue
WE
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AlissaFreewind
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I crash to desktop when switching toons.
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I only crash out like this when I am using the TINGS plugin. Everything else there is no problem.
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Chazcon
Title: FOR THE VITAE!
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Subject:
I crash to desktop when switching toons.
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I think it's a Decal problem and I'm sure it's the top item on the Devs' fix-it list as they work on the next release of Decal.
War Devs.
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Chazcon - Aluvian swordsman
You say, "FOR THE VITAE!"
Ru tells you, "CHAZ!"
Simply Red tells you, "I am SO not recovering your body!"
-- Good times.
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mrFlipo
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Subject:
I crash to desktop when switching toons.
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As far as AC blowing up when exiting.
Fot testing I used Tings as the only plugin. Enter Game and Exit game repeating until it blows.
What I am seeing is that i'm not getting a Terminate to my plugin.
When it gets a Terminate message it works fine.
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Hazridi
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Subject:
I crash to desktop when switching toons.
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This is caused by Decal.Adapter plugins improperly terminating com filters with ReleaseComObject. Not a decal problem.
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Hazridi of WE, VT, HG, SC Decal Core Dev - http://www.decaldev.com - Beta at http://www.decaldev.com/beta
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mrFlipo
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Subject:
I crash to desktop when switching toons.
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For me it can't be terminating com filters.
All of the terminating code is in the Terminate method.
So since i don't get Terminate called by Decal... i never get a chance to
do any terminations.
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mrFlipo
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Subject:
I crash to desktop when switching toons.
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AlissaFreewind " I only crash out like this when I am using the TINGS plugin. Everything else there is no problem."
I have new version out. So far not had a single kaboom from it.
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AlissaFreewind
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Subject:
I crash to desktop when switching toons.
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Flipo, still does it and points to the decalcontrols.dll, so apparently still is not sending correctly. It is the only plugin that does it, so I only load it when the cook/alchemy/fletch folks are working.
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Lil-Blub
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Subject:
I crash to desktop when switching toons.
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Well this needs to be fixed imho. Excuses make up half of business. People get rich of this stuff.
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Hazridi
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Subject:
I crash to desktop when switching toons.
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Instead of whining you could ask plugin developers to ensure their plugins are not causing crashes.
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Hazridi of WE, VT, HG, SC Decal Core Dev - http://www.decaldev.com - Beta at http://www.decaldev.com/beta
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Monolith_WE
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Subject:
I crash to desktop when switching toons.
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Just wanted to add my 2 cents. I rebuilt all 4 of my systems this past weekend. No plugins installed. When I log in and out of ac, no crashes. As I started to add plugins back, then ac started to crash again.
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_Moonglow_
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Subject:
I crash to desktop when switching toons.
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This happens to me in two situations, one of which I have a surefire solution for. In both cases it only happens when I have ElTank running.
First, it sometimes happen when I have just logged out a toon, at the character selection screen, and try to log in another toon. This appears to ONLY happen when I log in the second toon too quickly, and IMHO, it is happening because ElTank does not handle the "Character already in world" message very well. Waiting 10-15 seconds before logging in the second toon usually prevents it, but not always.
Second, it almost always happens when logging out a toon that I have not logged in with ElTank before. In this case it happens before you ever get back to the character selection screen.
For this second case, I have found a solution that ALWAYS works.
To fix the crashing on logging out, you need to manually edit one of the Windows Registry entries for EACH toon that logs in and out when Tank is on.
These are directions for WinXP:
--Start Menu/Run: Type in REGEDIT, and then click OK
--Open HK_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Decal Plugins\ELTank
--Select the name of the toon you want to repair
--In the right pane, right-click on GUI, and then click Modify in the context menu
--For Value data:, type in 7, and then click OK (activates all the GUIs in Tank)
--Repeat for all other characters that crash
--Close the registry window
I do this for every toon that crashes while logging out, and they never crash again. -- But if they crash at some other time than when logging out that toon, this does not fix the problem.
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AC/HG: ~Tigr~ level 275
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Malavir
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Subject:
I crash to desktop when switching toons.
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The crash does NOT only occur while running El Tank. It does however ONLY occur when decal is running. It may be El Tank or Ltx not sure.
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Monarch - Ducking Frunks
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"The more people I meet, the more I love my dog." - Me
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Hamfast
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I crash to desktop when switching toons.
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One of the issues we have found (please note, I did not, nor do I wish to imply this is the only issue) with Eltank has to do with the Comps Hud (even if you are not using it) add something to it... anything... select it and add it...
I would also like to agree with _Moonglow_, in that I have found taking my time also helps with this issue... it may also help with other plugins that are a bit slow in the shut-down process.
I am not sure if Life-tank has HUDs, if they do, it may be the same type issue...
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