Arch_Magi
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... think again.
http://forums.acdev.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3868
"is there a posted copy of find it's license agreement without having to install the program?" - Sollux
"Your welcome. And for those curious, there are really only two relevant issues.
One, you agree to not use the program on machines with programs installed that are capable of Combat Macroing. The two most obvious of these are El Tank and Lifetank. In a discussion elsewhere on these boards, I described my reasoning for this wording.
Two, you agree not to redistribute the software." - Gouru (Decal Dev)
====================================
Well, the reply from Gouru and the other Decal Devs ought to be good. So, as part of the Decal Agreement, you agree not to install ElTank and LifeTank?
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Kyuzo.
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Not sure what happened but I think those posts were moved from a thread on Gouru's It! plugins. I think the license he is talking about is not for decal but only his plugins. I'm sure futher clarification will be added by a decal dev.
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Arch_Magi
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Kyuzo. posted:
Not sure what happened but I think those posts were moved from a thread on Gouru's It! plugins. I think the license he is talking about is not for decal but only his plugins. I'm sure futher clarification will be added by a decal dev.
Ok, then if that is the case, I guess I won't be using and if Gouru's plugins. Because I will not uninstall LifeTank and ElTank, and I wouldn't want to violate his "license agreement".
IMO, that is one of the most retarded things I've ever heard. But then again he is the author, he has that right.
Just want to make people aware of Gouru's rules.
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Maddy_ACEDL
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If they (Decal Devs) wanted to do their best to get rid of those plugins, then for starters they wouldn't have Elgarl as part of the private alpha team to help spot issues.
Troll rating: 2
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Arch_Magi
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Maddy_ACEDL posted:
If they (Decal Devs) wanted to do their best to get rid of those plugins, then for starters they wouldn't have Elgarl as part of the private alpha team to help spot issues.
Troll rating: 2
There, I changed the title. Better?
What is even better is this gem ...
Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 1:49 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hehe, at least It! was disabled.
I should probably clarify that in my agreement. In my mind, using Sort It! to sort stuff that ElTank picked up is 'using them together' even if they are not running at the same time. Using Make It! to make arrows that Lifetank uses later when macroing is 'using them togeither' even if not run at the same time. So 'in my mind' having both installed is 'using them together', but I perhaps did not make that clear in my license messages.
Just so people know...though I admit El Tank's right to exist, I am still against combat macroing that uses any less keypresses than can can be done by a standard melee toon. My personal world would be a much happier place if I didn't have to listen to El Tank reports in every fellow I join, so I'd prefer it not be installed at all.
In support of my beliefs, I ask that people that wish to use my time, code and work in-game to respect my beliefs and not use my programs if you also use combat-macro capable programs.
Apparently you can't use arrows made by someone using Make It! if you use xTank. I wonder how people will know if the arrows that they buy off a bot in the /marketplace are made with that program or not?
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Maddy_ACEDL
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No, you still got a few mistakes, most glaring:
" So, as part of the Decal Agreement, you agree not to install ElTank and LifeTank?"
It is part of the It! plugin agreements, not Decal.
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Bala-LC
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<vent>
The Bottom line, for me(IMHO), is that I am gonna continue doing what I do, and  with the rest. As long as what I am doing in game, is in adherence with the CoC, then yall "Aint got a thing to say.... There.... 'nuff' said.
</vent>
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Gdinero_FF
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Gouru doesn't like combat macroing plugins.
This can't possibly be news to you, or to many other people who read this board.
Therefore, you're just trying to stir up excrement as usual.
Maddy_ACEDL posted:
Troll rating: 2
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Hamfast
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I have to admit, with all the past issues between the Decal Devs and Elgar, I was both happy and quite surprised about that...
I have even seen posts by decal devs that have praised Elgar for his efforts...
In case you are not sure, this is to praise the Decal Devs for taking that step.
In the case of Gouru and his license agreement, they are his plugins, his efforts, he can limit them as he wishes... just as Elgar has done in his EULA in asking that people not use his work to break the Turbine CoC...
I will also posit that find it and make it can be used to UCM (by the definition posted by Ibn so long ago) because if you are running a macro while affecting combat and not at the keyboard ready to respond, you are a UCM...
As for Arch-Magi choosing Eltank over Make-it, that is his choice, and that he has the honor to uninstall or not install the "It" plugins is praiseworthy... that he attacks the work of Gouru mitigates that praise.
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Drakier
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Bala: that is just selfish.
you're basically saying "I'll do what I want, and screw everyone else" which is a completely selfish way of looking at the world.
Gouru has put a TON of time and effort into something, and you should at least respect his wishes... I'd LOVE to see you put as much time and dedication into something as Gouru has, release it publically, then have every selfish person use it against your wishes... maybe then you might get a small fraction of what I'm saying... then again.. probably not.
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Arch_Magi
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Hamfast posted:
As for Arch-Magi choosing Eltank over Make-it, that is his choice, and that he has the honor to uninstall or not install the "It" plugins is praiseworthy... that he attacks the work of Gouru mitigates that praise.
Hey, I'm just trying to use public opinion to try to get a software developer to change their license agreement ... oh, say like, Gouru and when he used the "Decal is officially Dead" post to get Turbine to change their license agreement.
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Maddy_ACEDL
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<< Hey, I'm just trying to use public opinion to try to get a software developer to change their license agreement >>
Knowing Gouru, it ain't going to happen.
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Drakier
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Gouru wasn't using Public Opinion to attempt to get the CoC changed...
he was pointing out a fatal mistake in the CoC based on the wording that causes some problems for a LOT of people.
There is a difference between the innacurate wording of the CoC and Gouru not wanting his plugins used against his wishes.
And as Maddy said.. you aren't going to get him to change it regardless of how many people agree with you.
It's not about the public, it is about Gouru.. and until Gouru doesn't care about Combat Macroing, then his EULA will remain with that spirit in it.
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Arch_Magi
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Well, the "mistake"t that Turbine made is another issue. IMO it wasn't a mistake. Turbine tried to change it and got spanked hard when people caught the change, then they backpeddled and said that they weren't going to change it at all. Sorry, that too is laughable. If they weren't going to change it at all, then why was anyone even messing with it in the first place.
But I digress.
Yes, it's Gouru's choice to word it like that. It's other peoples choice to ignore it too (even though it may be illegal). It is my choice to not use his stuff (I never have anyway). It is also my choice to point out this little tidbit to everyone here so they can be informed of the "possible violations" in using xTank and any of the It! programs.
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Drakier
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by all means.. spread the word.
I'm sure gouru would love it if more users were aware of their possible violation of his EULA.
Most users don't even know what his EULA says, so this is a step up in the right direction.
So thanks.. you're helping spread the word of his EULA.. I'm sure Gouru would be very appreciative (if he were here).
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Hazridi
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Yeah, Gouru wants his users aware that if they are using both, they are breaking his EULA.
Maddy put it best -- "Knowing Gouru, it ain't gonna happen."
Turbine wasn't really swayed by public opinion, they were swayed by the fact that customers might LEAVE if they kept the COC the way it was. Gouru has no customers, so there is no lever to use to 'sway' him.
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Arch_Magi
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Hazridi posted:
Turbine wasn't really swayed by public opinion, they were swayed by the fact that customers might LEAVE if they kept the COC the way it was.
That is what I ment.
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Hazridi
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So you knew this would be utterly ineffectual as anything other than an attention seeking ploy?
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Arch_Magi
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Hazridi posted:
So you knew this would be utterly ineffectual as anything other than an attention seeking ploy?
No, I've actually gotten about a dozen PMs in the last hour talking about this and some people are saying "I don't care what he says, I'm still going to use it." and others are saying "What a complete <edit>, I'm uninstalling it now.".
Hey, I thought it was just Gouru making a statement about Decal and its license agreement. I was wrong. It's about his personal programs. Apparently I wasn't the only one unaware of Gouru's "license".
Oh well, I'm more than glad to do my part and help set people straight. Either use It! or xTank, but not both, because that would be a violation of the It! license.
[Edit]
Actually, the more I think about it. I actually admire Gouru for this. I think he should take his personal conviction one step further and make his plugins "aware". What I mean by that is, if when you go into the game, and his programs are running, they will check for the existance of ElTank or LifeTank or other "bad programs" and if detected, they immediately drop you to the desktop, pop up a dialog box showing the license file violation and then prompt the user to make a choice ... to either uninstall ElTank/LifeTank or all the installed It! programs.
Now if he did that, I would have a new respect for Gouru and his principles.
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kgober
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I'm sure Gouru will be glad for the extra attention. I think the only thing he'd want for his users more than awareness of the terms of his EULA, would be actual compliance with it (and of course, trouble-free operation of his plugins in a game-enhancing way).
-ken
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kgober
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to address your edit (edit? edits don't bump your post count) wasn't there a plugin that did that? refuse to work if some other plugin the author didn't like was also running (or installed, I don't recall exactly)?
-ken
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MT_Gouru
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Thank you Arch-Magi, and also all those of you that have uninstalled my It! programs because you use a combat macro.
I fully understand your right to combat macro (attended), which is why as a Decal Dev I supported Elgar as a pre-alpha tester, even though I strongly disagree with that program. His programs have made some attempts to prevent unattended macroing, which is why he was admitted, and Lifetank was not.
And though you have that right, I personally feel that it is bad for the game, and bad for the players using it, and do not want to support it in any way with my personal plugins.
Since I rarely get donations for It! programs, the 'best' thanks people can give me when they use these programs is to not install or use programs capable of combat macroing.
The only people I have issues with are those that use my programs without honoring the license agreement. I really wish they wouldn't.
I have considered making It! aware, however not by crashing out of AC or any potentially harmful action, just simply disable their functionality when a program capable of combat macroing is installed.
Sure, it could be worked around, but honestly, why bother? There are alternatives to virtually everything I've written, using those is easier than hacking It!
My programs are to give those that support a combat macro free environment, but still like the convenience of playing aids, an option that does not support the combat macro development.
P.S. According to Ibn, the website mistakenly posted the AC2 CoC instead of the AC CoC (checking wording verifies this). Whether this was indeed a mistake, or whether it was on purpose I don't know, but I don't believe Ibn would have any reason to lie. My post WAS meant to raise somewhat of an alarm, since more reasonable posts on the Turbine boards were getting deleted or locked with a 'nothing is wrong, life is normal' type response, which it was not. The meaning HAD changed, whether accidentally or on purpose, I don't know. But according to the published CoC, most purposes of Decal would NOT have been legal, so we needed clarification as to the intent. Because if Turbine really HAD wanted to shut Decal down, we would have done so. The post served it's purpose. In my opinion, it did not force Turbine to capitulate, but did force them to clarify their intents.
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Krackcode
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I don';tknow why, this always l;eads to eltank as being the bad guy...Elgar has taken more steps the anyone else to combat UCM. Instead of incessantly going after Tank, why not mention for a change LTX and ACTOOL. Those are things that allow people to UCM now, not Tank.
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Drakier
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I don't think he's done more to combat UCM than anyone else.
that's a very subjective thing as well... because in my mind, even though I really dislike SweetMary, I feel she has done a lot to combat UCM. I wouldn't argue that she's done more than anyone, but I think she's done a lot.
I could also argue that a lor of the Decal Devs have done a lot to combat UCM. While the actual work may not be publically seen, most of the devs have put in some form of an effort to uphold the CoC.
I myself have done a lot in terms of advocating against UCM to attempt to combat UCM. While my actions are specifical vocal and may not be tangible, I feel that I have done a lot of work to advocate against CoC violations and UCM.
And this isn't about Tank in specific. As Gouru has stated, it's about ANY plugin capable of Combat Macroing. There is an acceptible level of automation, and Gouru has set that limit to "Melee mode" meaning single keypress per monster.
ELTank and LifeTank do not fulfill this requirement.
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Lokkie_the_Fierce
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Maddy_ACEDL posted:
Troll rating: 2
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Virindi-Inquisitor
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Isn't Robochef being worked on now? There are also plenty of ACTool macros for making craft goods. If you have a problem with the It! agreement, surely there are alternatives you can use...
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Arch_Magi
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Drakier posted:
that's a very subjective thing as well... because in my mind, even though I really dislike SweetMary, I feel she has done a lot to combat UCM. I wouldn't argue that she's done more than anyone, but I think she's done a lot.
Good lord, saying a perma-banned, hacker who makes my posts sound like praises of joy has done "more things to combat UCMing" is like saying .... no, nevermind, I won't say it.
I can't even believe you said that.
Virindi-Inquisitor posted:
Isn't Robochef being worked on now? There are also plenty of ACTool macros for making craft goods. If you have a problem with the It! agreement, surely there are alternatives you can use...
Yes, and I will do things by hand until it comes out.
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Maddy_ACEDL
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<< Good lord, saying a perma-banned, hacker who makes my posts sound like praises of joy has done "more things to combat UCMing" is like saying .... no, nevermind, I won't say it. >>
Go ahead and say it. I agree with Drakier on this. While I don't approve of SM's methods, she probably did more to try and stop UCM'ing then many other people.
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Arch_Magi
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Maddy_ACEDL posted:
<< Good lord, saying a perma-banned, hacker who makes my posts sound like praises of joy has done "more things to combat UCMing" is like saying .... no, nevermind, I won't say it. >>
Go ahead and say it. I agree with Drakier on this. While I don't approve of SM's methods, she probably did more to try and stop UCM'ing then many other people.
Yeah, apparently they worked, because everyone knows, no one UCMs anymore.
/sarcasm off
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kronikjames
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just so i am clear i can still have Make It an tank installed at the same time, i dont macro, just use it for my alchemy for elixirs and arrows...to speed up my down time.
so the Make it issue where i crash the game is not related or related currently?
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MT_Gouru
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According to the license agreement, you may not.
However, any crashing issues with Make It are not due to any code specifically disallowing it, though obviously, it is an untested scenario.
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Arch_Magi
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kronikjames posted:
just so i am clear i can still have Make It an tank installed at the same time, i dont macro, just use it for my alchemy for elixirs and arrows...to speed up my down time.
so the Make it issue where i crash the game is not related or related currently?
No, not according to Gouru ... "you agree to not use the program on machines with programs installed that are capable of Combat Macroing. The two most obvious of these are El Tank and Lifetank. "
To not be in violation of that sentence, you can't have ElTank even installed on the machine that you have It! installed on. Even if you don't use it, ElTank has the CAPABILITY. Heck, he doesn't even want you using arrows made with It! with ElTank.
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Krackcode
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I was referring to plugin developers and decal developers. If you want to get picky, Turbine has done mkore then anyone, since they MADE the UCM rules and hired +enoys to cunduct UCM tests.
Elgar is the only developer of a combat macro that has taken several different approaches to combat macroing; at least that I've ever heard of. I don't think he gets enough credit for his work, and now with the key stroke timers...i supopose it's his fault that people work around that by using a "drinking bird", or using a simple actool macro?
Not his fault at all. Since Einstein was nuked, Eltank has become the best plugin there is, both in functionality and the sreapd of things it does. And now with hosts of other plugins MIA or dead, Eltank is really the only option. Quite a bit of what else is out there at the moment are really quite terrible and or buggy, they lack ease of use and functionality and many of them lack documentation; and that's unfortunate.
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Drakier
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as can be seen in this thread by Gouru: http://forums.acdev.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=18403#18403
He says:
"In my mind, using Sort It! to sort stuff that ElTank picked up is 'using them together' even if they are not running at the same time. Using Make It! to make arrows that Lifetank uses later when macroing is 'using them togeither' even if not run at the same time. So 'in my mind' having both installed is 'using them together', but I perhaps did not make that clear in my license messages."
so to me, that would be read as against his EULA.
Having them both enabled at the same time, and using them in conjuction with eachother is definately against his EULA.
As is creating arrows/potions for later macroing purposes.
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Drakier
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I'll admit that Elgar has done more than other COMBAT MACRO developers to reduce the chances of his plugin being used in CoC violating activity. It's definately better now in terms of UCM than it could otherwise be without the protections at all.
Along those same lines however, both myself and Gouru had specified the appropriate changes which can be made to ELTank to bring it in full copmliance with both Gouru's EULA and with how we feel a true "Playing Aid" should be created to follow the CoC.
If Elgar were to make ELTank the mage equivalent to the Melee, then it would be inline. No auto-attack. Also depending on who you talk to, auto-vuln or 1-shot vuln/kill might be bordering on gray area.
To me, I personally would like to see 1 keypress to vuln, and another keypress to repeat-attack kill. If ELTank did that, I'd be more than happy to call it a playing aid. Until then, it is a swiss-army macro.
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Arch_Magi
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Drakier posted:
I'll admit that Elgar has done more than other COMBAT MACRO developers to reduce the chances of his plugin being used in CoC violating activity. It's definately better now in terms of UCM than it could otherwise be without the protections at all.
Along those same lines however, both myself and Gouru had specified the appropriate changes which can be made to ELTank to bring it in full copmliance with both Gouru's EULA and with how we feel a true "Playing Aid" should be created to follow the CoC.
If Elgar were to make ELTank the mage equivalent to the Melee, then it would be inline. No auto-attack. Also depending on who you talk to, auto-vuln or 1-shot vuln/kill might be bordering on gray area.
To me, I personally would like to see 1 keypress to vuln, and another keypress to repeat-attack kill. If ELTank did that, I'd be more than happy to call it a playing aid. Until then, it is a swiss-army macro.
But as you point out, that CHOICE is up the the plugin author. Elgarl has made his choice to listen to the people who use is plugin and not to your suggestion. So has Gouru and his plugins.
Elgar isn't the one saying he has a problem wih It!, it is the other way around.
Such are their choices.
Just pointing that out (as I was done before), Gouru doesn't even want you using the arrows made with his program for use in Eltank. Maybe you might want to consider making ACDC aware of ElTank and LifeTank. I mean ACDC is a pretty popular program, and I know for a fact that many macroers use your program to allow them to run multiple copies of UCM programs on one machine. I mean if you REALLY want to "clean up" the world, that would be a very logical place to start ... with your own program.
I wonder what his stance on the use of his programs and say ... Mule Trader ... I mean I could see a possible objection to having an "Unattended Fletching Macro" being used in conjunction with a Trade Bot. I mean in effect, you are advancing your characters wealth by macroing (first making the arrows, then unattended selling of them).
No, the more I think about it, the better it would be for It! to be aware and have the programs not work with other programs, that way people don't have to pose so many questions on what is the "proper use" of his creations.
After all, we wouldn't want SweetMary to hack into peoples computers and take control of their bots like she did with LifeTank now would we?
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Tevatron
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Ok so how far does this EULA go? I have two machines, one machine has never ran Tank, and I have MakeIt! installed on that to make Quarrels and trade health elixirs. Now I use the Quarrels and THE's on the other machine which has Tank installed. And I do not use it for macroing, at all. In any form attended or unattended.
So that is where I have a real issue with the EULA, I use Tank for the Experience tracking, Equipping, loot tracking, navigating, HUD systems. If that is inconsistent with the spirit of the EULA I respect that, and I'll disable MakeIt until another plug in comes along that can provide the XP/Component HUD that Tank Does. I believe there are other plug ins to cover the other things I use Tank for.
I wish this EULA had been disclosed earlier, I still would have made a donation, but Tank's donation probably would have been larger.
I wish that there was a way you could disable Tank's combat macro functions by the end user so that it displayed it in the fellow chat. Like ElTanklite... or ElTankfree etc...
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Drakier
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Tevatron: it was disclosed earlier..
it was disclosed when you clicked the "Accept" button when installing the It! series of plugins.
I know most people don't even read those, but you really should. Sometimes they actually contain important information.
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Hamfast
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Truth is I have done the most to get rid of UCM... I have done so much that I have not seen one for quite a while... if you don't believe me, just ask and I will tell you again... and if you do not agree you are just wrong... (Kidding because I think the whole point is silly)
Gouru has taken a stand, he has requested that folks that use his tools not use a small segment of the tools available... ok, they are currently a large segment because the number of tools are so limited...
He has not taken the more drastic stand to disable his tools if those tools whose use he has chosen to disagree are also installed, he has asked that they not be... and defined the limits he asked folks that use his tools to use and then left it to the users...
I would even have to say that Gouru has gone so far as to take it upon himself to make and maintain tools that cover every part of those tools he disagrees with except for the parts he disagrees with... ok, most of the parts... ok, some of the parts... but tomorrow will bring more... or the day after... or at least some of them that are not covered by tools that he agrees with.
That we choose to abide by Gouru's request is not a reflection on Gouru, but a reflection on ourselves... Gouru's stand is quite evident, those that choose to ignore it should be ashamed of themselves...
I would again like to direct you to the memorable post by Ibn (long before the CoC error) were it still available, that defined UCM as any Macro running, while you were unable to respond to +Envoys and affecting Combat... thus making Make-it a Non-Combat UCM Program... as is Castaway and several other plugins... This shows the difference between a principled stand "Please don't use my tools if you have tools installed that do this" and the vague issues that have been used in the past... We all know that Make-it is not a UCM program, but the language used to define UCM would make it so...
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kgober
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tevatron, your use would not be in violation of the letter of the EULA. and it's probably not inconsistent with its spirit, either.
-ken
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Arch_Magi
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kgober posted:
tevatron, your use would not be in violation of the letter of the EULA. and it's probably not inconsistent with its spirit, either.
-ken
"Using Make It! to make arrows that Lifetank uses later when macroing is 'using them togeither' even if not run at the same time. So 'in my mind' having both installed is 'using them together', but I perhaps did not make that clear in my license messages." - Gouru
I mean it really doesn't get much more clear than that. Gouru doesn't even want you to use products that his programs make at a later time with a "UCM program" ... even if that person doesn't UCM with them.
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Lil-Blub
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Quote:
Gouru has put a TON of time and effort into something, and you should at least respect his wishes... I'd LOVE to see you put as much time and dedication into something as Gouru has, release it publically, then have every selfish person use it against your wishes... maybe then you might get a small fraction of what I'm saying... then again.. probably not.
End Quote=
Yes Gouru has done us ALL a great thing.
But this comes down to the time of everyone. You (The Decal/Non-Decal Devs) know for a fact that people use LifetankX and Eltank correct?
You also know about 60% of the playerbase if not more use Decal for L/EL-Tank's...?
You also know that it took you time to write code for a plugin, as did it for the people who write LifetankX and Eltank correct?
So why exactly is YOUR time more important than others?
Why do you decide who and what should happen?
You want to talk about SELFISH????
Look in the mirror guys.
I read the first 5 posts and had enough.
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kgober
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tevatron has said that he doesn't use the items he makes with Find It! for macroing, attended or unattended. that use is not wholly inconsistent with the spirit of Gouru's EULA.
obviously, using them with a combat macro would be. in this situation that is not claimed to be the case.
remember, Gouru's EULA is not about UCM, it's about combat macroing of any type. the rule to apply is, if it takes at least one keystroke or mouseclick to kill each monster, then you aren't 'combat macroing' in a manner that conflicts with his EULA.
-ken
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Drakier
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who said anything about any other devs time?
If a user wants to use ELTank or LifeTank, those developers have put a lot of effort in their plugins as well..
you should respect THEIR wishes just as much as Gouru's (as long as their wishes don't go against Gouru's, as Gouru doesn't impose his wishes upon them).
There is also a large difference between asking and demanding. Gouru asks that no users who use Combat Macro capable programs use any of his It! plugins because they are against his wishes. That wouldn't the same as someone from LifeTank, for instance, telling users to go use It! plugins with LifeTank because it makes Gouru mad. See what I mean?
Also.. I'm not deciding anything about time, nor am I, or Gouru, being selfish.
Everyone who has put in effort into their development deserves to have their wishes for product usage respected...
Same goes for ACDualClient users. If I were to create a license that forbids users of ACDualClient from using it with Decal, that would be my right as the plugin creator, and it is your responsibility to respect that. Of course I know that I cannot do that as I would no longer have any users, so I of course am not going to do that. But the idea is the same.
I have put time and effort into my PRODUCT which I give for free. The LEAST anyone can do is respect the wishes of how I want that product used.
Gouru has the same thing. He has put a LOT of time and effort into his It! plugins, and the least anyone can do to thank him for that effort is respect his wishes regarding the usage of his plugins.
I fail to see how any of my statements are selfish.
Edit:
Quote " You also know about 60% of the playerbase if not more use Decal for L/EL-Tank's...? "
Please don't make up numbers. Lets try to keep the conversation reality based.
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Arch_Magi
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Drakier posted:
Same goes for ACDualClient users. If I were to create a license that forbids users of ACDualClient from using it with Decal, that would be my right as the plugin creator, and it is your responsibility to respect that. Of course I know that I cannot do that as I would no longer have any users, so I of course am not going to do that.
My respect for you speaking the truth about that just went up 10 points.
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KPD157
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"I would again like to direct you to the memorable post by Ibn (long before the CoC error) were it still available, that defined UCM as any Macro running, while you were unable to respond to +Envoys and affecting Combat... thus making Make-it a Non-Combat UCM Program... as is Castaway and several other plugins... This shows the difference between a principled stand "Please don't use my tools if you have tools installed that do this" and the vague issues that have been used in the past... We all know that Make-it is not a UCM program, but the language used to define UCM would make it so... - Hamfast"
First of all the only way Make It would be a UCM is if it was in a Combat Situation. Alone I don't suspect that Makeit Could survive or would be put in a situation where monsters were around. And that would be a Personal Problem with the User of the plugin not the plug in itself.
Second I have also expressed my beleif that El Tank could be made into a Legal (Non UCM Able for any time period) Plugin if only Elgar would make it where each monster had to be choosen for attack. That you couldn't just leave it there for 5 minutes before hitting a key and it would keep killing things. Basically if a +Envoy comes up to the bot in the 5 minutes and administers a 30 second Test your busted for UCM 
I have no problem with Elgar's plugin besides the fact its still an Automated Combat Bot for 5 minutes. Maybe a Quick fix would be to have it check every 20 seconds ? But truthfully I don't beleive in Bots at all
Back to the Topic. Gouru has every right to make his EULA worded as it is and he has the right to even enforce it. I tried a while back to Enforce Plugin shut down on +Envoy Detection or even someone telling you something while your fighting a monster. It worked to some extent but the best Prevention is simply to not allow your plugin to work alone as a COC Breaker
I maintain in my Ethics of Programming Plugins that I shall not write a plugin that is Self Autonomous. That includes any type of Bot (Buff, Trade, Looting, Traveling, or Combat). My plugin requires therefore that human input must be present to work. Leave it alone and it does nothing besides the last Macro that was run. An ACM is not Watching El Tank run. An ACM is Not a Bot. Its more like what Gouru and Ken have been talking about. Its a Macro that you control not some Automated Robot.
PS does anyone have problems with Quoting and Previewing I seem to be having some
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Lil-Blub
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Getting topics locked that are legit are against ToS Draiker
I am making it. What ya gonna do now? Nothing but gasp and shut up?
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kgober
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people who make charitable contributions naturally want to know that their contributions are going towards the things they intended for them to. this is why there's always such an outcry when people discover that some charity is spending 80% of their donation income on executive salaries, or collecting for one disaster only to spend the money on something else instead.
the reason is, when you make a contribution, you have an expectation about how that contribution will be used, but since you're no longer in actual possession of it, you have very little control over how it will actually get used. when you find out that the money you donated to help 9/11 victims actually went to an anti-AIDS needle exchange program, you might reasonably be upset.
this is not necessarily the case when you contribute software to the AC community. software is different. software can be licensed, rather than given, and that license can have a EULA attached to it that governs how it may be used. there is nothing wrong with this, and certainly nothing that can legitimately be labeled "selfish".
-ken
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Drakier
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Lil-Blub: who said I had anything to do with it?
Mods can read just as good as I can.. it was obvious that the post was a troll post relating directly to your comments in this thread (and others).
We're actually trying to have a civilized conversation (debate) and you're just throwing in useless arguments that don't do anything for the conversation except make you look bad.
So far, I don't see a whole lot of flames or bad things in this thread (even from the people I disagree with).
It's a thread to help clarify the EULA for other users and to discuss the ramifications, etc on users and the plugins by this EULA.
For what it's worth, I think it's serving its purpose well.
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I'm so gonna own you Draiker
sRange ranges = discrete ranges...
for (i=0..numItems) {
range.top = 0; range.bott = 0;
for (j=0..numItems) but not us {
if (high value of j range within us) range.bott++;
else if (low value of j range within us or above us) { range.top++; range.bott++; }
}
Watch me.
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Drakier
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you're gonna "own" me?
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Tevatron
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Drakier,
I made the donation several months before the EULA was available for review.
Sorry you misunderstood what I had posted.
I just wanted clarification. I'll ask the source since anyone else would just be speculating.
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Drakier
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Tevatron: that would be a good idea.
from the source is the best place. It is also my speculation (in agreement with ken) that you wouldn't be breaking either the letter or the spirit of the EULA in your actions, so I think you're ok.
as for the Donation, you can't exactly make a donation that has stipulations.
If you liked thed plugin at the time, then that is why you donated... if people continue to like the plugins/applications they should continue donating on a semi-regular basis. If at any time they become dis-pleased with the plugin, then they can stop sending donations, and the author might get the message.
a donation is a thank you for the time you used it (generally). You can't really make a donation toward the future and the intent of usage later... you can, but it just wouldn't be a good idea.
more people should donate more often to the plugins and applications which they use and appreciate. It shows a level of support from their users. I know a lot of people don't, and it is by no means required... but I'm sure pretty much any developer appreciates it.
Even if users donated $0.50 every month (regularly) you can imagine how that would add up over time and over the amount of users.
you can see what I'm getting at.
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Hazridi
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Uh oh, Drak! You're gonna get so owned!
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Drakier
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I'm still waiting to see how I'm going to get "owned"
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Tevatron
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*nod*
I didn't donate under any special circumstance. You guys needed the lattes 
And again I'm sorry if you feel that I'm trying to sway anyones ethics with talk of money.
But had that EULA been available it may have had an influence on my propensity to give. I had never used any of Gourus IT! programs prior to the great decal crash. I was a Robochef kinda guy.
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Krackcode
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Drakier posted on 12/16/05 2:38pm
I'm still waiting to see how I'm going to get "owned"
tryn and view his profile...LOL, looks like he got Pwnd.
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Drakier
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she...
and yes... she seems to have been "owned".
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Arch_Magi
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Drakier posted:
I'm still waiting to see how I'm going to get "owned"
Maybe by donations?
How much does it cost to own Drak? If I buy him, does he do Windows? How about Linux?
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Drakier
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unless your name s Bill Gates, I don't think you could own me.
I'll admit that I can be bought for the right amount of money...
it just so happens that the "right amount of money" is so insanely high that hardly anyone can afford it.
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MT_Gouru
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FWIW, that EULA has been in every release of Sort It!, Make It! and Find It! since they originally came out (at least since the public release of combat macros, not sure which came first). It has been 'click to accept' during the install for that full time, so it HAS been disclosed, just not publicized. Arch_Magi is helping immensely with the publicity
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MT_Gouru
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Tevatron posted:
Ok so how far does this EULA go? I have two machines, one machine has never ran Tank, and I have MakeIt! installed on that to make Quarrels and trade health elixirs. Now I use the Quarrels and THE's on the other machine which has Tank installed. And I do not use it for macroing, at all. In any form attended or unattended.
So that is where I have a real issue with the EULA, I use Tank for the Experience tracking, Equipping, loot tracking, navigating, HUD systems. If that is inconsistent with the spirit of the EULA I respect that, and I'll disable MakeIt until another plug in comes along that can provide the XP/Component HUD that Tank Does. I believe there are other plug ins to cover the other things I use Tank for.
I wish this EULA had been disclosed earlier, I still would have made a donation, but Tank's donation probably would have been larger.
I wish that there was a way you could disable Tank's combat macro functions by the end user so that it displayed it in the fellow chat. Like ElTanklite... or ElTankfree etc...
Proof that ANY EULA you come up with can have special cases. This is also one of Turbines problems, and one that people have trouble understanding. It is the difference between attending a macro and attending an alarm.
In this specific case, here is how I would read it. It! and *Tank are NOT installed on the same machine, meeting the 'letter of the agreement'. The products created by Make It! are NOT being used for macroing (using my definition of macroing), meeting the 'spirit of the agreement', so this usage meets the both the letter and the spirit of the agreement.
In another case, the selling of arrowhead created by Make It! This is definitely within the realm of allowable use. If somebody REALLY wanted to be picky, they would sell them with the request that they not be used for macroing. Obviously not enforcable, but at least continues the spirit. In my mind, since a seller (in general) does not know the intended purpose of the items, there is no violation of spirit. However, if you were making that sale with full knowledge that they were going to be used for combat macroing (one of your toons sells it to another of your toons?) then there would be a violation.
Like UCM regulations, enforcment is probably impossible without undue interference into the privacy and rights of individuals. So, I make the EULA, and depend on the general 'goodness' of people to honor that. Those that do not, classify themselves accordingly, and as a strict pagan with a firm belief in the great Mandala, their future rewards will vary accordingly.
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Drakier
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well said Gouru.
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Arch_Magi
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MT_Gouru posted:
In this specific case, here is how I would read it. It! and *Tank are NOT installed on the same machine, meeting the 'letter of the agreement'. The products created by Make It! are NOT being used for macroing (using my definition of macroing), meeting the 'spirit of the agreement', so this usage meets the both the letter and the spirit of the agreement.
Ah, so people can ignore your previous statemenet then ...
"Using Make It! to make arrows that Lifetank uses later when macroing is 'using them togeither' even if not run at the same time. So 'in my mind' having both installed is 'using them together', but I perhaps did not make that clear in my license messages." - Gouru
Ok
As far as "It is the difference between attending a macro and attending an alarm." ... did Turbine change the CoC on that? I just thought they said that you had to had to "Allowing your character to gain experience points by engaging in combat without being at the keyboard, ready to respond to an Administrator on demand (this activity is commonly called a "Combat Macro")."
I don't see anything in the CoC that even mentions the word "alarm". Feel free to search for the text though, my web browser may be broken. http://www.fuzeqna.com/asheronscall/consumer/kbdetail.asp?kbid=305
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kgober
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of course that's not what it means. are you deliberately misreading things just to cause controversy?
tevatron is not using Make It! to make arrows that lifetank uses later when macroing. the one statement has nothing to do with the other.
the thing you don't seem to be understanding is that it's possible to use eltank without using it to macro. eltank does do other non-macro things, after all. and if you only use the eltank non-macro parts, and you use it on a different computer than Make It! is installed on, then you are obeying both the letter and the spirit of the EULA.
-ken
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kgober
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the CoC may not mention the word alarm specifically, but it doesn't mention the words "eltank" or "lifetank" specifically either.
the question about alarms is part of an explanation about how the CoC is interpreted, and how it is enforced. here's a link that you might find useful:
http://vnboards.ign.com/ac_developers_board/b5142/57256430/p1
the gist of it is, your macroing is considered attended if you are ready to respond to an admin. if you are not ready to respond, then you are unattended.
and here's the key: if you are not ready to respond until after the admin alarm goes off, then you were unattended up to that point, and attended afterward. this is why the UCM test has a time limit; it is specifically designed to catch people who are running an unattended macro in conjunction with an admin alarm.
-ken
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Tevatron
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I never had reason to read the It! EULA because like I said I used Robochef before TOD. When I read it I specifically installed it on a non-Tank machine. And I installed it after I had made a donation. Had I known the spirit of the EULA about using crafted items with Tank I would have certainly asked clarification. I think this all got spun up pretty fast and I threw the D word out there when I shouldn't have. And for that I apologize, Lattes are very very important! And your time to make these applications is also important.
But...
I've decided to remove ElTank and MakeIt! from both machines. If infinity was working then this would be a non-issue. If I could code of course it would be an even mooter (is that a word?) point. If I just kept my mouth shut, used both programs and said to hell with anyone elses morals/opinions/ethics then I suppose this all would be moot as well. But that's not me.
I understand that I'm keeping within the written EULA having one program on one machine and one program on the other, and the spirit of the EULA since I am not using crafted items for combat macro purposes. But this has all gotten way too political for me.
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MT_Gouru
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Political is what Arch-Magi is about. My best guess is he likes to intentionally misstate what people say in order to cause controversy, thus the very first post in this thread. I wouldn't let him upset you.
And now I remember why I quit posting here. Time for another vacation
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Krackcode
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MADNESSSSSS!
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LancePierce
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Although this discussion is interesting, I think it's moot. I'll tell you why (I hate raining on anyone's parade).
First of all, I don't have xTank installed, and I personally think combat macroing, whether ACM or UCM, is lame. In fact, there's no difference between ACM and UCM. The only reason for the distinction is that there's no way to definitively "catch" someone combat macroing if they're at the keyboard (practical versus ethical). It's funny (lol) that, over time, ACM has become acceptable and good while UCM is a crime. Think about it and you'll see the comedy in it.
But I digress. Even though I respect Gouru's position, I do believe that the clause being discussed in his EULA is illegal. It smacks of violating constitutional rights. Just because you put an illegal clause in a license agreement, and someone agrees to be bound to it by clicking the OK button, does not make the clause legal. Think about it. We're talking about copyright, not contracts. It's just not legal to say something like, "By opening Time magazine and reading Gouru's column, you agree to not read elgarl's column in Newsweek magazine."
If Gouru insists on having that clause in his eula, he should consider adding this to protect the rest of the EULA from being null and void:
=================
SEVERABILITY
To the extent that any provision of this Agreement is declared by a court or other lawful authority of competent jurisdiction to be invalid, illegal or unenforceable, such provision shall be severed and deleted or limited so as to give effect to the intent of the parties insofar as possible and you and Licensor will use their best efforts to substitute a new provision of like economic intent and effect for the illegal, invalid or unenforceable provision, and the remainder of this Agreement shall continue in full force and effect with respect to all other provisions.
=================
Now, I've noticed mention of "donations." Remember, if you click the paypal button and "donate" some money, you are not donating to a cause or charity. This is Shareware. Shareware is delivered free, but you should (not must, it's voluntary) pay a small fee if you like and use the software regularly. Gouru's plugins are at least shareware because they have license agreements (EULAs). They would be public domain (where donations would make sense) if there were no EULA.
This, by the way, pretty much means that you can ask for a refund if the author does not want you to use the software.
I think Gouru can make his point on his website and at plugin install time. I would respect it. He just can't put it in his EULA.
IMO, the reason the debate on this thread is so heated is likely because it's about whether someone has the right to restrict the liberties of another.
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MT_Gouru
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I think it's more about the rights of one person to steal the work and efforts of another. Legally I have zero obligation to distribute what I create. Legally I have the right to charge whatever I wish for that product. Legally I have the right to put any restrictions on the use of that product I wish (but not on the use of other products). I do NOT ask people not to use a combat macro program. I ask them not to use It! IF they use a combat macro program. As the sole author, owner and distributor of the It! programs, that is my right. If people do not want to use them and want to use combat macros instead, that is their right. Use of a product in violation of it's license terms is not only unethical, it is illegal, at least in the United States. Yes, license terms CAN be trumped by state laws in VERY specific instances, but in general the power is in the hands of the creator. I doubt you will find any laws that invalidate my license agreement.
This is NOT copyright law. This is product sale and licensing, an entirely different issue.
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kgober
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I wouldn't worry about "constitutional rights". the courts have historically been very willing to allow people to freely enter into whatever contracts they like, including contracts that restrict the rights of one or both parties.
that is, the court recognizes your right to enter into a contract that restricts your rights, if that's what you want to do.
civil liberties have nothing to do with it. you do not have a "civil liberty" to use *my* work without my permission, and on my terms. that's the realm of Intellectual Property law. and property law is king. or to put it another way, property rights trump all other rights.
-ken
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LancePierce
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Hmmm, so I can write a plugin and place in the EULA that you must agree to not have Diablo II or QuickTime installed on your machine?
I seriously doubt that. =)
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kgober
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no, but you can do the reverse: write a plugin and place in the EULA that you can only use it if you don't use Diablo II or QuickTime.
the agreement is not that you won't use D2 or QT, the agreement is that if you do, you'll stop using the plugin.
the EULA describes the terms under which the plugin may be used, it does not place terms on how other products may be used.
-ken
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kgober
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to put it another way, there is no difference from a "civil liberties" perspective between writing a plugin that refuses to function if QT or D2 are installed, and writing one that works fine but whose EULA requires the user to simply avoid doing so.
the end result is the same, the only difference is the method of enforcement.
it would be quite another matter, however, if the plugin deliberately interfered with QT or D2 in such a way as to make them stop working. but I doubt you'd get prosecuted for it. computer systems have a long history of incompatible software, and such things are generally accepted as normal. how often have you upgraded to the latest video driver to make the newest game work, only to find that the new driver doesn't work with your old games? you certainly don't scream that the video card manufacturer is trying to deprive you of your civil liberties, you just resign yourself to the fact that there's a compatibility problem.
this is not to say that you *couldn't* take the case to court, just that people typically don't bother, unless they have compelling evidence that you're engaging in anticompetitive behavior.
-ken
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LancePierce
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Well, in the least it's unenforceable. Doesn't the phrase "programs installed that are capable of Combat Macroing" imply prior knowledge or intent? If multiple players use the same machine (at different times), and one player downloads Make It! without knowing that any programs are installed that are capable of Combat Macroing, is that player in violation of Gouru's agreement?
And "programs installed that are capable of Combat Macroing" would be based on Gouru's standard. So does this agreement give Gouru the right to inspect the player's computer to determine if there are any programs installed that are capable of Combat Macroing? I think Sony did something like that and they are in hot water over it.
[edit]: And what if the programs installed that are capable of Combat Macroing are installed but not configured to run? What if they are disabled? What if the player attempts to remove the programs installed that are capable of Combat Macroing and fails because of an error in the installer/uninstaller?
And by installed, does that mean just having the files on disk? Or certain registry entries. What if the player installed Eltank in order to use only the navigation part of the software? If the user never intends to combat macro, isn't that player considered to follow the spirit of what the author wants?
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LancePierce
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"Legally I have the right to put any restrictions on the use of that product I wish (but not on the use of other products)."
Any restrictions? So you can say that if the player is a Puerto Rican female (not necessarily physically in Puerto Rico), that the player may not use your software?
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LancePierce posted:
"Legally I have the right to put any restrictions on the use of that product I wish (but not on the use of other products)."
Any restrictions? So you can say that if the player is a Puerto Rican female (not necessarily physically in Puerto Rico), that the player may not use your software?
That is simply hyperbol, and would be against many laws in the US. I do not think MT_Gouru's licening agreement is anything like such. Just a simply do not use his software on machines that are enabled to do Combat Macros. You should respect it.
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LancePierce
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And I do respect it. Like I said, I don't have Eltank or any tanks for that matter installed.
I'm just pointing out that his assertion:
"Legally I have the right to put any restrictions on the use of that product I wish (but not on the use of other products)."
is incorrect.
[edit]: So let me get this straight. If the clause violates a law or 2, it's ok, but if it violates many laws then it's not?
BTW: "You should respect it." I meant that I respect his point of view. I'm just pointing out that the EULA may be invalid.
You should respect it too.
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Maddy_ACEDL
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<< Any restrictions? So you can say that if the player is a Puerto Rican female (not necessarily physically in Puerto Rico), that the player may not use your software? >>
Technically yes, and in a free society he probably should be too. That is another discussion though.
His plugin, he doesn't charge for it, I think he is allowed to set limits on its usage.
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So someone makes a program in his spare time and gives it away for free and people think they have a right to question his eula.
If some people used half the time they use complaining to learn to program they could have made their own plugins right about now.
Its a free program quit whining and playing pocket humanright/legal activist
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Gouru's EULA is legal. It's forbiding the use of his plugin(s) while certain conditions exist. Not forbiding the end user from installing *tank. Gouru's intent is that his work is not used to aid in any form or shape combat macroing (ACM or UCM).
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Striderlongshanks
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You guys spend way to much time arguing about nothing lol.
Would you rather Gouru add a ban list like certain combat macro program(s) (as far as I know still does this at least) does and PREVENT you from using it instead of just asking you not to?
I'd be willing to bet yall would be up in arms and want to call the state attorney generals to storm Gouru's house and burn it down, for heaven forbid he is infringing on your god given rights to do anything you want. Much like you did over the ucm plugin(s) banning of certain people huh?
Really is too funny lol
SL
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MT_Gouru
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LancePierce posted:
"Legally I have the right to put any restrictions on the use of that product I wish (but not on the use of other products)."
Any restrictions? So you can say that if the player is a Puerto Rican female (not necessarily physically in Puerto Rico), that the player may not use your software?
I'm not trying to write a book, essay or law so I reserve the right not to spell out every nit-picky detail. I did state later in the same message "Yes, license terms CAN be trumped by state laws in VERY specific instances, but in general the power is in the hands of the creator. I doubt you will find any laws that invalidate my license agreement.".
Legally I can put the restriction that blacks cannot use my software (to push the true hot button) and this is a case where it would most probably be trumped by state/federal anti-discrimination laws. On the other hand, I COULD restrict distribution from those areas that would actually have the unmitigated gall to sell It! to a black person, and that would be perfectly legal.
The Sony case IIRC included sending that information back to Sony, breaking privacy laws. Inspecting your computer to make sure it meets minimum standards is perfectly legal. AC checks that you have D3D installed, Decal validates that you have AC installed and refuses to run if not. Microsoft Office Upgrade edition checks your computer to see if an 'eligible' product is installed, and takes appropriate action.
Any such action I took with It! would a) not interfere with the normal use of your computer b) not interfere with your running of any other piece of software and c) not report it's findings.
Ultimately, there are a LOT of 'what ifs', and its not worth anyones time to try to discuss them all. Bottom line, my EULA is valid in the USA. The type of enforcement I've considered is legal in the USA. Like any EULA, there are special situations, and when people ask, I will try to clarify how I would apply it in that situation, and the thought process behind that.
In the case of this EULA the basic thought process is this. I do not want It! to support combat macroing in any way. At a minimum, I do not want It! installed on a machine that has combat macro capable software installed. I do not want products created by It! to be used in combat macroing.
If people disagree with my EULA, they are free to use any other software or plugins they choose, or may even write their own.
Bottom line...It! is mine, I have not given up rights on It!, I choose to allow others to use It! at no charge under specific conditions. I accept donations NOT as payment or registration of the software, but as a 'thank you' gift for those that believe in tangible 'thank you's. Donations give you NO additional capabilities or rights with It!
If you have specific questions on how the EULA should be applied in your specific circumstances, I'll happily respond to them. I think I'm finished with all the general 'what if' scenarios.
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Tevatron
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Look people, it's the SAME thing as if Gouru lent me his car and told me not to smoke in it. Sure I could. I could mask the smell as well, but I would not be respecting his wishes if I did. If I drove it to the store to buy some smokes I'm sure he would be displeased but it's keeping within the spirit and stated word.
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Arch_Magi
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MT_Gouru posted:
Political is what Arch-Magi is about. My best guess is he likes to intentionally misstate what people say in order to cause controversy, thus the very first post in this thread. I wouldn't let him upset you.
And now I remember why I quit posting here. Time for another vacation
I'm sorry, did I misquote you Gouru? I don't think I did, but please feel free to correct my quote of you. Or feel free to change your License agreement, because your quote, your license agreement and what I am saying are all jiving.
pgrivas1 posted:
Gouru's EULA is legal. It's forbiding the use of his plugin(s) while certain conditions exist. Not forbiding the end user from installing *tank. Gouru's intent is that his work is not used to aid in any form or shape combat macroing (ACM or UCM).
QFT
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-Gol-
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Just being curious here, I didn't read all the posts before this...
Do you plan to also ban the use of Skunkworks with the It! plugins, since it *can* be used to UCM? Failure to do so would seem quite hypocritical.
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Tevatron
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Gol,
Straight from the EULA;
You agree not to use Sort It! with any software that violates the Decal Code of Ethics or Asheron's Call Code of Conduct. Specifically, you will not use Sort It! with programs capable of combat macroing, and only use it with an official version of Decal.
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MT_Gouru
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Arch-Magi, yes you claim conflicts where none exist. Others can see it as well, so I won't bother to try to educate you.
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MT_Gouru
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-Gol- posted:
Just being curious here, I didn't read all the posts before this...
Do you plan to also ban the use of Skunkworks with the It! plugins, since it *can* be used to UCM? Failure to do so would seem quite hypocritical.
No...Skunkworks is not capable of Combat Macroing. Neither is Decal or Windows XP. Any Skunkwork script that is capable of Combat Macroing however would be in violation. So Skunkworks users are fine. Users that install WarBot are not.
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Traed
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All I have to say is "too little, too late" to fix a broke game. I have respectfully uninstalled my first install of FindIt. One last thing NO ONE likes to be compelled to do a thing. Fact is people have different beliefs and values. I am just glad you are not a third-world dictator or my spouse..
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Arch_Magi
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MT_Gouru posted:
-Gol- posted:
Just being curious here, I didn't read all the posts before this...
Do you plan to also ban the use of Skunkworks with the It! plugins, since it *can* be used to UCM? Failure to do so would seem quite hypocritical.
No...Skunkworks is not capable of Combat Macroing. Neither is Decal or Windows XP. Any Skunkwork script that is capable of Combat Macroing however would be in violation. So Skunkworks users are fine. Users that install WarBot are not.
Bahhahahahahahah
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAH
EHEHEHHEHEH
"Skunkworks is not capable of Combat Macroing" ....
HAAHAHAHAHAHAH
HEHEHEHEHEHEH
OMG, OMG, Thank you Gouru, I needed that laugh.
HAHAHAHAHAH
ElTank is just as "not able to UCM" as Skunkworks ... Sure if you install a script into Skunk it will UCM, just like if you have a "Helper" program to bypass ElTanks timeout feature.
OMG, that was just too funny.
But, like you said, it's your program, you can set forth any rules you want Gouru. Even I respect that. It's just that others are asking questions ... including other App Devs ... so it isn't "as clear" as you think it is.
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MT_Gouru
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You do NOT have to have a helper script in El Tank to combat macro. It does it all by itself. Note, I do NOT use the term 'unattended' in my descriptions of Combat Macroing, AND I have clarified what Combat Macroing is in terms of the It! EULA. No, I won't write all these little nitpicky things into an EULA that would have the same complexity of the IRS tax code. I'm assuming people will use a little bit of common sense, and I will happily clarify whenever there is a question.
This is just another example of how you deliberately misread what a person says so you can create controversy.
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Flessen
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I think Gouru has the rights to limit HIS plug-ins as he wants.
Gouru: Maybe you should add a line of code to disable your plug-in if it detects the plug-ins in question.
I would like to request a list be made available that you do not want running (or installed) with your plug-ins. Just becareful how you scan for them.
Arch-Magi: As much as I understand your stance. It is his plug-ins. End of discussion. It was good that you brought this all to our attention. Those of us that might or might not run plug-ins that he doesn't allow will know about his EULA. Truth be told. I never read any of his license so I was ignorant of this. But, again I would like to reiterate, it is his decision. Arguments with him is senseless. Most you can hope for is a on-line petition and see if he will relent. If he doesn't then that is that.
Although I feel that people who don't use any of the CM features of Eltank are being penalized, it is his decision. They did not click on the bubble or change the drop down that would enable his code inside eltank to then become the CM. It is VERY much like ACTool and even more so like Skunkworks. But I digress.
(Edit for mostly for spelling)
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Arch_Magi
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Flessen posted:
Arch-Magi: As much as I understand your stance. It is his plug-ins. End of discussion. It was good that you brought this all to our attention. Those of us that might or might not run plug-ins that he doesn't allow will know about his EULA. Truth be told. I never read any of his license so I was ignorant of this. But, again I would like to reiterate, it is his decision. Arguments with him is senseless. Most you can hope for is a on-line petition and see if he will relent. If he doesn't then that is that.
You are correct, it is his decision, and if you read the thread, I have said that about 30 times. I am NOT saying that it is wrong, in fact, I have ALWAYS maintained it is his right. Please don't confuse other posters with me.
I will say it one last time ...
It is Gourus RIGHT to set forth any conditions he wants in his EULA.
I am just pointing those conditions out, and other things he said ... because like you, almost no one reads those things, and as he said before, he doesn't even want you making arrows with Make It! and using them on a machine running ElTank or LifeTank.
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Flessen
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Correct Arch_Magi,
(Didn't know I have misspelled you name!)
He has commented and should be end of discussion. Don't keep arguing about it. That was the gist of my annotation in regards to you.
He has stated which plug-ins he doesn't like. End of story. So don't run them or don't run his. Arguing about his wording is samantics at best.
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Flessen
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I do agree that his "spirit of the agreement" can cause havok. But then again, alot in this world will meet the "letter of an agreement" while not meeting the "spirit of an agreement".
Again, he has commented on it and gave his view. That is over with.
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Myrdhyn
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Not going to read all this, but even though I don't have Tank or Lifetank installed I will not be using any of of the It! plugins because I think this is a selfish and irresponsible way to do things. Not to mention very childish.
Edit:
I find one thing kind of funny though... the It! class of plugins do not do anything that ELTank and Lifetank cannot do by themselves. Making this perhaps a odd sword, rather than pushing people from those plugins, this will push them toward those plugins. Kind of like how the unpopular kindergarten kid will bring candy to school to get more popular, but will only give you a piece if you promise not to play with the popular kids.
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Flessen
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LOL
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Madgic
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HIya me again,
Can someone write a programme to tell me what programme, if any, Made my arrows?
Although I think its kinda Childish to expect people to chose between Programmes, I also tend to be the one who always gets caught for breaking silly Rules like this so id like to make sure Im safe.
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MT_Gouru
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Myrdhyn posted:
Not going to read all this, but even though I don't have Tank or Lifetank installed I will not be using any of of the It! plugins because I think this is a selfish and irresponsible way to do things. Not to mention very childish.
Edit:
I find one thing kind of funny though... the It! class of plugins do not do anything that ELTank and Lifetank cannot do by themselves. Making this perhaps a odd sword, rather than pushing people from those plugins, this will push them toward those plugins. Kind of like how the unpopular kindergarten kid will bring candy to school to get more popular, but will only give you a piece if you promise not to play with the popular kids.
I'm sorry if you feel it is childish for someone that creates something to want to limit how that thing is used. Or to use those creations to support the things he believes in. I don't see it that way, but then again, I wasn't raised with a false sense of entitlement.
The It! plugins have functionality that existed long before them, and were written primarily when support of those earlier products was dropped. Find It! was written when Sixth Sense support dropped, Make It! was written when Robochef support dropped. Zyrca wrote Einstein specifically as a non-combat macro answer to many of the features available in combat macros. I am providing a non-combat macro option for those that would prefer combat macros be gone.
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MT_Gouru
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Madgic posted:
HIya me again,
Can someone write a programme to tell me what programme, if any, Made my arrows?
Although I think its kinda Childish to expect people to chose between Programmes, I also tend to be the one who always gets caught for breaking silly Rules like this so id like to make sure Im safe.
Hehe, if you didn't make them yourself, don't worry about it. If you did make them yourself, I assume you already know what program (if any) created them.
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Myrdhyn
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---------
I'm sorry if you feel it is childish for someone that creates something to want to limit how that thing is used. Or to use those creations to support the things he believes in. I don't see it that way, but then again, I wasn't raised with a false sense of entitlement.
The It! plugins have functionality that existed long before them, and were written primarily when support of those earlier products was dropped. Find It! was written when Sixth Sense support dropped, Make It! was written when Robochef support dropped. Zyrca wrote Einstein specifically as a non-combat macro answer to many of the features available in combat macros. I am providing a non-combat macro option for those that would prefer combat macros be gone.
----------
You have your opinion Gouru, unfortunately it and your past history about Tank in specific just lack the sincerity your trying to push. "Some" people who use tank never even put it in anything but buff mode and use it for the huds, so you are attempting to punish people who don't use the plugins for the reason your stating.
Would you buy a car that could read speed limit signs and prevented you from driving the way you wanted to drive and limited the speed the car would go? There are many ways of doing what you are stating is your goal without dragging yourself to the gutter. It is my disappointment in the way your doing this that tells me you aren't sincere in your goals that is why I will no longer use your plugins. And as a FYI, there have been FAR more people who used skunkworks or actools to combat macro than your probably aware of, since the people serious about it either write code in those or their own plugins to do so.
I know that doesn't bother you, but it is my opinion.
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MT_Gouru
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Myrdhyn posted:
---------
You have your opinion Gouru, unfortunately it and your past history about Tank in specific just lack the sincerity your trying to push. "Some" people who use tank never even put it in anything but buff mode and use it for the huds, so you are attempting to punish people who don't use the plugins for the reason your stating.
Would you buy a car that could read speed limit signs and prevented you from driving the way you wanted to drive and limited the speed the car would go? There are many ways of doing what you are stating is your goal without dragging yourself to the gutter. It is my disappointment in the way your doing this that tells me you aren't sincere in your goals that is why I will no longer use your plugins. And as a FYI, there have been FAR more people who used skunkworks or actools to combat macro than your probably aware of, since the people serious about it either write code in those or their own plugins to do so.
I know that doesn't bother you, but it is my opinion.
...Yes, I would buy that car. I hate speeding and do it most often without realizing it. I also drive with reasonable stopping space in front of me. It does tend to anger other drivers, so mote it be.
I am not attempting to punish anybody. I am asking them not to use my software. How is that punishment? Are we using the same definition of this word?
I'm curious where the 'sincerity' argument is coming from? How is what I'm doing any different from my positions on El Tank in the past? What have I done in the past that makes you think I'm insincere on my position on Combat Macros? What have I done that has dragged me into the gutter? Stood up for my principles? Included my principles in the products I create? Respond to Arch-Magi? (Okay...granted that last one might count)
Do you honestly think I'm unaware of combat macros written in skunkworks or actools? Those combat macros also are covered by my EULA. I can see where you may disagree with my position, but how in the world can you call it insincere? Are we using the same definition of that word?
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Maddy_ACEDL
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<< ElTank is just as "not able to UCM" as Skunkworks ... Sure if you install a script into Skunk it will UCM, just like if you have a "Helper" program to bypass ElTanks timeout feature. >>
Which is why comparing Skunkworks to Decal is more correct then comparing Skunkworks to El Tank. Comparing a script for Skunkworks to El Tank is what you should do.
Little logic goes a long way.
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Gdinero_FF
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Logic has no place here.
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OlGraybeard
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Wow, is this a hornets nest, lol
A question for Goru on his EULA.
I use EL Tank but I do not UCM in any way shape or form. EL Tank has features that (and please do not take offence) that work better for me than FindIt. I also like Elgars' HUD diplays over any others. I can not get SortIt to act anything like Stacker which is all I need. But I need somethiing to make stuff with and MakeIt does the job. However, I do not use it because of your EULA and how i understand it.
Also, EL Tank has my monarchy listed as a non-UCM allowed monarchy and up until the Alpha 5 releases, would actually prevent me from using EL Tank to UCM (hey Elgar, this function is broke, are you going to repair it?).
However, based on your discussions on AC Devvelopment site, just the act of having them both loaded on my machine together is a violation of your EULA. I have seen several discussion where people have had both listed in there export and someone slammed them for violation of the EULA. However, I do not exceed the statement in your EULA of using your plugin with any plugin that will UCM (assuming Elgar corrects the auto check for monarchies that does not allow UCM). I do not use MakeIt because of this and am waiting for Stacker to get fixed to work with Decal Alopha 5.
I do have Maddy's Castaway loaded and find it very stable over what EL Tank Decal 3 version was for me. Have not tried the EL Tank Beta 5 version yet.
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Kyuzo.
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"Not going to read all this, but even though I don't have Tank or Lifetank installed I will not be using any of of the It! plugins because I think this is a selfish and irresponsible way to do things. Not to mention very childish." -- Myrdhyn
Gouru's EULA is on the honor system (currently). It takes an adult view of the world to respect that and honestly, it really isn't that difficult. A child will do whatever he or she wishes if they think they can get away with it. Many adults will do this do but it is those people I would classify as selfish and childish.
If you see a vegetable stand by the side of the road with a box where you can deposit cash, do you take the food without paying just because you can? Do you shoplift because there are no cameras or store employees watching? If you find a wallet on the ground, do you just take the cash because you can? etc, etc, etc.
When you understand why you shouldn't do these things, then you may call yourself an adult. Until then, talk to the hand.
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Hamfast
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Are any of you old enough to remember the P&P game "Champions"?
in the game you created a Super Hero... skills for that super hero had a chance to work based on a roll of 3d6 (3 to 18)... for example, you may have a weakness of "flee from a fight" (Cowardice) on a 6 or less (in combat, roll 3d6, on a roll of 6 or less, you run away)
As we learned to play the game, we learned about ways to make some characters quite strong... while it was "Within the rules" it was not in the spirit of the rules (Strengths and weaknesses were supposed to be balanced)... We called this a Player Skill (as opposed to a Character Skill) of "Find-Hole-In-Rules" and would rate each other accordingly...
Some of the folks posting on this thread are getting close to the Find hole in rules on an 18 or less Lead Standard of rule bending...
It is really quite simple...
Gouru has made a request for those that use his software... if you don't like the rules, don't use it... I don't...
If you like Gouru's work, or want to thank him for his efforts, donate to him... I have...
If you are the type to ignore EULA's and use things as you see fit, then thank Gouru for not (yet) disabling his own software when combat macro's are detected.
And for those of you that are trying to find holes in the rules… SHAME ON YOU!
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Arch_Magi
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I loved that game.
1d6 Armor Piercing, Rapid Fire.
8d6 Area of Effect, Does no knockback.
WooT! Those were the days of good games.
But you are missing the fact that some people aren't trying to be a "rules rapist", they are simply trying to clarify a poorly worded EULA.
I for one am not being a "rules rapist", I'm adhearing to both the letter and the spirit of his EULA. I choose to boycott ALL his programs and have ask all members of my guild and anyone else who will listen to do the same. If they do, that is their choice, if they don't, that is their choice too.
Aren't principles and free speach wonderful?
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Flessen
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I will honor his EULA. I believe in his rights to do as he wishes. While I'm saddened he choose that. I will abide by it. But I do think he should still put in the line of code to detect and disable (upon detection). It would be his right and I think alot more people will start to read EULA's! (I know I was lax and ignorant of that!). I will just wish to warn him how he goes about detecting it. Either that or insert in his EULA about his detect process and not to use program is the detect process violates any laws. Be it federal or local. I know in Texas there is a fine line here.
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MT_Gouru
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Graybeard, I am against Combat Macroing, and plugins capable of Combat macroing, not just UCM. I am not familiar with how the monarchy restrictions in El Tank work.
Cases like you describe are one reason I haven't put a 'detector' in my plugins. The term 'using with' is a little vague, however at a very broad definition, having both installed at the same time could be considered 'using with' and I prefer the broad definition. Do you ever, EVER turn on automated combat, even for just 30 seconds while you run to the potty? Do you use Make It! to create the items used later in Combat Macroing? Are you supporting Combat Macroing for others when you choose to download, install and run Tank? Do you post regularly about how Combat Macroing is allowed and 'okay' even if you don't do it yourself?
Arch-Magi and others may lambast me for a 'fuzzy' EULA, oh well. It's not about the law, it's about personal responsibility and karma. The more completely you try to specify an EULA, the more the bunkhouse lawyers try to find the loopholes, and you end up with the complexity of the IRS tax code, which people STILL find loopholes in. This is a game, not politics.
Most of us here are adults, and can make reasonable, informed decisions. The penalty for not following my EULA is bad karma. And in my experience, Karma doles out much worse penalties than anything I could think of.
If in your heart of hearts you believe you are honoring the word and intent of the EULA, then enjoy. I've explained what Combat Macroing is in terms of the EULA, basically, if you have to press fewer keys to kill a monster that what a melee without Decal does, then it's a combat macro.
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WhiteStormLC
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this thread is rediculous
"you cant use my plug-ins because i dont like yours"
lol what a joke, dont worrie i wont use "it" LMAO get a life
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MT_Gouru
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Amazing how well this thread functions as a 'sorting hat'
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KPD157
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I love ya Methods
And your reasoning for what makes Combat Macroing
If you ever have a need to make the IT line dissabled when Combat Macroing is Detected send me a Tell on ideas you have I would love to learn how to dissable my plugin on detection of other things running on a system as well
The stance against UCM (having a Bot fight for you) is one that we can only hold if we as plugin developers actually can make a statement with what we have. We have control of how we design our plugins. We have the Right to Dissable them at any time for any reason. El Tank and LifeTank I beleive used to even if they don't now. Legitimately used plugins should in spirit not be used with illigitamate or illegally used or altered plugins.
I think we need more plugin designers like Gouru who take their ethics and infuse them into their plugins. I always feel my plugin is like my little "Baby" and I as a "Father" teach it the Ethics I grew up with. A plugin that can function in a certain way might even have a "Spirit" in it?
Anyway Keep up the Good work Gouru although I don't use any other plugin (Besides DHS which is included in Decal) but my own I think that what your doing in your EULA is a great step in getting Decal Plugins out of the Gutter and Asheron's Call back into the lime light
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Myrdhyn
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You should probably add anyone who uses or runs trade bots to your "do not use me" EULA. Many of the potions, arrows, and such sold could be later used by a UCMer. I would also put in that people who associate with people who UCM should not use it, as they could get items to UCM with from their associates.
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MT_Gouru
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Myrdhyn posted:
You should probably add anyone who uses or runs trade bots to your "do not use me" EULA. Many of the potions, arrows, and such sold could be later used by a UCMer. I would also put in that people who associate with people who UCM should not use it, as they could get items to UCM with from their associates.
Yeah, and everybody that buys a personal computer should be added as well, because someday they might purchase AC, install it, install Decal, load a Combat Macro program and use products made with Make It!
On the other hand, since I've already addressed the issue bring up in this thread, I could simply refer you to earlier posts. Or perhaps to the 'common sense' post I made earlier.
However, if you want to put those kinds of requirements in your EULA, feel free. It is after all yours.
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Myrdhyn
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FYI: If you use xTank, you can not use any of the "It's" plugins.
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My bad, I took this from above:
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Do you ever, EVER turn on automated combat, even for just 30 seconds while you run to the potty? Do you use Make It! to create the items used later in Combat Macroing?
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You must have said something different somewhere else in all this.
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MT_Gouru
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FYI: If you use xTank, you can not use any of the "It's" plugins.
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Yes, I explained it more fully earlier. I don't always repeat myself in the same detail when I know I stated it in more detail earlier in the thread.
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BMW_HG
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FYI: If you use xTank, you can not use any of the "It's" plugins.
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Thank you Arch- Magi for being this to my attention.
I admit I have failed to read the EULA for the IT plug-ins. I shall be more careful in the future.
Thank you Gouru for your clarifications. I have truly enjoyed using Sort it and have thought about trying out some of the other "IT" plug-ins.
Now that I have more knowledge and a better understanding I will consider carefully which plug-ins I use and what alternatives their my be for those plug-ins.
I appreciate all the work the decal and plug-in devs have done and do wish to honor their requests on the usage of such.
now I am off to decide which features I really want and which plug-ins do handle those features the best
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OlGraybeard
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FYI: If you use xTank, you can not use any of the "It's" plugins.
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Goru has explained it pretty well.
And as you can see, even with that, questions can arise. I am sure most people can find exceptions to everything. I did because I do like Goru's work and want to use some of it (like MakeIt).
I also like Elgar's work. I personally do not UCM. A number of years ago, I did, I used instant OG to make a new mage a level 25 mage. Regretted it also (yes, he made all of these levels quickly, but lost something along the way, the skill specific XP to melee, missle and magic D). However, I never rerolled him and still play him to this day. He is my Buff Bot.
I currently have none of the IT plugins loaded because I am currently testing EL Tank. Specifically, buf bot and El Track features. And I might add, I like them. I prefer EL Track over FindIt.
However, I am tending to lean towards Castaway. I am still having some problems but can not pin them down with just EL tank loaded. I dont crash, computer hangs and requires reset to get me out. Seems random so do not have anything to report to Elgar for him to focus on.
So in the long run, the plugins people use are going to be based on what they like in a plugin. But a modifier is in there, Goru has set a limitation and he is the owner (irrespective of freeware, shareware, whatever) and I will honor his limitations and feel all other should also. Than again, I do not care for UCMing either.
One thing I have noticed, is that there are a number of people that could careless what Goru stipulates about the use of his work in this thread. Unfortunately, we will always have people that could careless about the rules. If there is no enforcable method or penalty, they will do as they please at the displeasure of the others. So no matter what, there will always be someone that wants to mess things up for everyone else.
My view on what I have seen and my attitude. Or if ya like, my 2 cents worth, that and 3 dollars will get u a cup of coffee.
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OgII
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FYI: If you use xTank, you can not use any of the "It's" plugins.
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As a developer, I support Gouru 110%. Heck, if I developed plug-ins and had a problem with Tank / Life Tank you can bet my programs would not install or work with them. It is just common courtesy to respect the EULA - especially of a free program.
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MagusOfAtlan
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FYI: If you use xTank, you can not use any of the "It's" plugins.
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I'm surprised Gouru hasn't gone the next step to disabling the It! programs if they detect the more common CM plugins/programs.
It's all too common for people to ignore EULAs these days.
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Tiviee
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FYI: If you use xTank, you can not use any of the "It's" plugins.
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Why don't you plugin people work together? You have your little catfights and min-wars going on among yourself. What a mess all the different versions out there. Was so much better before TOD ever came out was 1 uniform format for everyone.
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Drakier
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FYI: If you use xTank, you can not use any of the "It's" plugins.
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Tiviee: what does that have to do with Combat Macros and Gouru's EULA?
also.. the reason for the mess is because everything is still in Alpha development for Decal.
Once we get back to a stable release like pre-tod, then it won't be a problem.
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