sweetnovember381
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Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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If so please post link here, thanks.
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Lonsgard
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Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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http://decal.acdev.org - there is a link in the forums.
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Lokkie_the_Fierce
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Subject:
Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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Direct Link to Alpha 3: http://decal.acdev.org/files/Decal-alpha3-c3.msi
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Drakier
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Subject:
Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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You shouldn't be using outdated versions of the software. Alpha 4 is the latest publically available, and Alpha 5 is on it's way out sometime soon. Old versions are old because they have known issues which have been fixed, and it doesn't help us at all to be testing old versions.
Please keep in mind that this is alpha testing, not alpha playing. We need people to properly test and use the software so we can fix it and get it released sooner. The quicker we can get and take care of problems, the faster we can move onto Beta and eventually Release.
Testing older versions doens't help us with anything since any problems you may find are most likely known issues and have been fixed in a later version.
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Arch_Magi
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Subject:
Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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Sorry Drak, 95% of the people out there are "Alpha Playing". Now is not the time to say "we need people to test the software, but we aren't going to give you any support".
It's fine for, as you say, Developers to test Alpha 4 and 5, but like you say/imply, the rest of us morons out there who can't google for an answer or know how to file a proper report are just too stupid to be of use to you guys. Thus, we only use what we know.
As your site says ... "This release is, as was Alpha 3, intended for PLUGIN DEVELOPERS. Really. We're not kidding. This means that end-users should AVOID installing this, because all plugins will break. Wait until the plugin developers have released plugins compatible with Alpha 4."
Sorry, we are doing EXACTLY what the Decal Devs have said. Imagine that?!
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DedletTar
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Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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I have to say somthing here.
I am not a developer. I don't want to be an Alpha tester either. Yet for some reason the people who develop my favorite plugins have taken it upon themselves to no longer make the versions of their plugins which worked with old decal available any longer.
I can no longer use UST nor Tradebot nor Einstein. In another thread we are told:
" Decal is still in ALPHA.. don't expect anything 'working' for quite a while still. At least until late beta.
Some plugins may semi-work as is, but you have to keep in mind that these build of Decal are not meant for end-user consumption, and are really only meant for developers and qualified testers to give us bug reports and allow us to fix problems."
So as an end-user right now I only have el-tank and a smattering of plugins I don't need available to me if I decide not to upgrade my decal to the alpha 4 version.
You have the developer's repect. How about you gently remind them that the alpha4 version of decal is not for end users and suggest they make available their older plugin versions for us end-users.
That would be really great.
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Maddy_ACEDL
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Subject:
Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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<< Sorry Drak, 95% of the people out there are "Alpha Playing". Now is not the time to say "we need people to test the software, but we aren't going to give you any support". >>
Unless those "alpha players" are using the latest version then they really aren't providing much help now are they?
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Drakier
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Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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"So as an end-user right now I only have el-tank and a smattering of plugins I don't need available to me if I decide not to upgrade my decal to the alpha 4 version.
You have the developer's repect. How about you gently remind them that the alpha4 version of decal is not for end users and suggest they make available their older plugin versions for us end-users.
That would be really great."
Technically.. there isn't a Decal AT ALL ready for "end-users".. Not until Decal is out of the testing phase. As long as Decal is in testing... more speficically ALPHA.. then it is not at all ready for end-users. Not Alpha 3, Alpha 4, Alpha 5 or any after that. Once Decal has gone through it's proper testing phases and is moved to Release, then and only then is it ready for end-users to use.
And I'm sure by the time Decal gets to Release, there will be more plugins available and working for it.. Einstein has actually already been updated and is now called EinsteinIt! by Gouru. UST was being worked on at one point. I'm not sure if the development on it has stopped until Decal is more stable or not... not that I blame ANY of the developers for not developing on Alpha decal.. it's very fluidic right now.
As I said.. once we hit Beta and the interfaces are locked in, we should be seeing a lot more active development on plugins knowing that they aren't going to break the next beta or test release. Currently, it's all changing to quickly.. which is what Alpha's do.
So back to my original point.. NONE of the Decal Alpha's or Test Decal's are ready for end-users. Many people don't agree with me, and that's their opinion to now... but as a Decal Developer, I'm saying that Decal is NOT ready for end-users, regardless of how much they need their ELTank or other plugins. It's just not ready.
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Arch_Magi
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Subject:
Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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Maddy_ACEDL posted:
<< Sorry Drak, 95% of the people out there are "Alpha Playing". Now is not the time to say "we need people to test the software, but we aren't going to give you any support". >>
Unless those "alpha players" are using the latest version then they really aren't providing much help now are they?
Hence why I said it was a "catch-22", but I was told that it wasn't a "catch-22", so ... whatever.
I will continue to use Alpha 3 and ElTank, LifeTank, and Treestats (when it is up), until those 3 programs are operational under Alpha 4.
Drakier posted:
You shouldn't be using outdated versions of the software. Alpha 4 is the latest publically available, and Alpha 5 is on it's way out sometime soon. Old versions are old because they have known issues which have been fixed, and it doesn't help us at all to be testing old versions.
Drakier posted:
So back to my original point.. NONE of the Decal Alpha's or Test Decal's are ready for end-users. Many people don't agree with me, and that's their opinion to now... but as a Decal Developer, I'm saying that Decal is NOT ready for end-users, regardless of how much they need their ELTank or other plugins. It's just not ready.
You may want to rethink what you said then, because those two quotes from you are in opposition.
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Drakier
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Subject:
Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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how so?
technically no END-USERS should be running Decal Alpha.
as for the TESTERS of Decal Alpha, they should be running the latest versions.
the TESTERS are the Plugin Developers and the Computer Professionals capable of properly testing software and reporting bugs... which is not 90% of the people out there who are currently running Alpha Decal.
how is that a contradiction of any kind?
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Arch_Magi
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Subject:
Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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I'm not going to argue with you Drak, we can let people decide for themselves what you ment to say. I suggest that you post your "call for testers" on the Decal Developers forum.
Here, this is mainly "end users". I mean that was the whole reason why the Decal Devs elected to take support for Decal to another site, so they could control the posts and not have to deal with the "end users" ... right?
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Drakier
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Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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I wasn't posting a "call for testers"... because we don't need anymore.
We have all the testers we need, and all the current testing we need going on.
We already posted a call for testers a long time ago, and have more than filled the previous need.
You can attempt to read into what I'm saying all you want, but the end result is the same..
Decal is not currently meant for end-users. It is not currently supported for end-users.
Unless you're a tester, then you most likely should not be running alpha decal's (especially old ones) and if you do, then don't expect ANY support on it.. ESPECIALLY old versions.
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Arch_Magi
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Subject:
Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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Ah, my bad, so when you said this, you were addressing the people who are on your "list" as testers.
I stand corrected, I thought you were talking to the people who get their directions here, and not on the "Official Decal Page".
Drakier posted:
You shouldn't be using outdated versions of the software. Alpha 4 is the latest publically available, and Alpha 5 is on it's way out sometime soon. Old versions are old because they have known issues which have been fixed, and it doesn't help us at all to be testing old versions.
My bad, so to summarize:
1) All Decal "testers" should not use Alpha 3, they should be using Alpha 4.
2) Anyone not a "tester" should not be using Decal at all.
Ah, it is much clearer now.
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Hamfast
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Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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Arch, you just love this don't you...
Here we go... I am a tester... I do not test Decal, I test Eltank.
Eltank was opened to us with Decal 3, I helped test it, helped with a few issues... and now I wait for the next release (nothing new will be released for the Alpha 3 version of Decal).
Eltank was not released with Decal 4 due to some issues...
Eltank Maybe updated (New Release) with Decal Alpha 5, but until Decal 5 is opened to those of us who help the Plug-in Developers test, I will stay with the last working version.
I understand that some folks (non-testers) are currently using Decal Alpha 3 and 4 along with plug-ins that have been made available to them... Some of us choose when we can to help these folks, we understand that not all of these folks should be using the alpha software... we get fed up answering the same question over and over again... and yes, I tend to think that no question should be answered where the same question is asked and already answered on the same page... but searches are hard at times.
I am also a firm supporter of redirecting questions to a proper board... Point an Eltank question to Elgar's forums, a Gouru Question to his forums, a question about dual client to Drakier's... If no forums are available then there are limited choices for folks to ask for help... but where one is available, go there to ask, questions will be answered faster and more correctly by people you get to recognize as "Knowledgeable"... face it, anyone can answer a question on these boards, and that alone should scare you.
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Arch_Magi
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Subject:
Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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Hamfast posted:
Arch, you just love this don't you...
Eltank was not released with Decal 4 due to some issues...
Eltank Maybe updated (New Release) with Decal Alpha 5, but until Decal 5 is opened to those of us who help the Plug-in Developers test, I will stay with the last working version.
Yes, I am.
Yes, I agree, if you aren't a tester (like 90%+ of the people who use Decal or a plugin), then stick with the version that works, which in the case of Decal and ElTank, is Alpha 3.
Yes, I agree with YOU, 100% on that.
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Kyuzo.
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Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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This is a simple issue really. It goes along with the old saying "if you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem." Decal testers should be using the latest version of decal, otherwise they will likely point out problems which have already been fixed. If you feel the need to *use* an older version of decal, you are not helping the decal development *at all*. You are in fact, part of the problem. If you are using an older version of decal to help find bugs with a specific plugin, then I guess it depends on what that specific plugin author needs.
Let's get down to it. Everyone wants a functional Decal and lots of people want a functional ElTank or (insert favorite plugin here) and most of these people are too pigheaded to realize they should sit back and chill if they can handle what it takes to get it all working.
Ask not what the Decal devs can do for you...
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Arch_Magi
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Subject:
Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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Kyuzo. posted:
Ask not what the Decal devs can do for you...
Drakier posted:
We already posted a call for testers a long time ago, and have more than filled the previous need.
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Kyuzo.
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Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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"As your site says ...
"This release is, as was Alpha 3, intended for PLUGIN DEVELOPERS. Really. We're not kidding. This means that end-users should AVOID installing this, because all plugins will break. Wait until the plugin developers have released plugins compatible with Alpha 4."
Sorry, we are doing EXACTLY what the Decal Devs have said. Imagine that?!"
Actually, you are not doing anything of the sort. You failed to notice the phrase "as was Alpha 3." The decal devs have always maintained that users are free to attempt to get the public alphas working but they are not likely to get help if they can not help themselves. Maybe I've completely missed what you are getting at. Do you have a point?
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Krackcode
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Subject:
Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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This discussion sounds eerily familiar....
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Myrdhyn
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Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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Funny from several sides:
1. we don't want more testers
2. don't use old alpha's as then you won't be able to correctly report problems as a tester
3. don't use decal alpha it at all unless your a tester
4. you should be using the latest alpha to help report any outstanding problems
5. please return to #1 and start over
That pretty much sum it up or did I miss something?
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Enoch_VN
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Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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Why did I click on this thread again.....
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RareBreed1
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Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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I agree with Hamfast, and like him I'm waiting on tank to be updated to work with alpha 5 when it comes out. It wasn't going to happen with alpha 4, and if anyone had gone to tanks forums they would have seen that. Once tank has been updated I'll be testing and giving feed back on tank and decal forums not vn.
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Hellbound_SC
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Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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LOL!
This seems fairly clear to me...
IF you choose to use a Decal release older that what's beeing tested by test personel (and are listed as current Decal verison on Decal boards), don't expect to recieve any help ,what so ever, from the Decal Devs.
IF the decal devs do respond to questions regarding outdated versions of Decal, feel lucky and greatful for them takeing they're time to reply.
IF you can't get Decal or plugins to work (and are not useing the latest decal version) and can't find help eighter by your self or by others, you should probably wait until a finished version of Decal is released.
IF you decide to be a (or are elected as) tester, don't expect everything to work properly - Alpha's seldom do.
I think the Decal devs are dooing a great job, and I can ounderstand they're frustration trying to support a Alpha release as a final product.
And Yes, I do run Alpha3 with plugins and are not assigned as a tester... I feel naughty, LOL!
HB
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Myrdhyn
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Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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I agree Hellbound. It is however funny to listen to the devs complain they will not support anyone because all alpha code is for plugin authors only. Yet they then complain that you should be using the latest alpha code that they also will not support because you aren't a tester 
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Hazridi
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Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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Yeah, because plugin developers can't be testers.
See my eyes? they're rolling. Our test group consists almost entirely of plugin developers. There is one person who is not a plugin developer in it.
We're complaining because users think it's okay to use Decal right now. They expect it to be like it was before. It's not.
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Krackcode
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Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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Works fine for me except for the minute bugs I've reported to the plugin developers *shrug*
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-Foxy-
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Subject:
Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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Hazridi posted:
We're complaining because users think it's okay to use Decal right now.
ummm thats because we were told it WAS ok to use decal
it was even posted w/ a link and a fix to make it work
it was posted here, it was posted on my server board.
if it wasnt ok for us non devs to use, then why was it put out?
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Maddy_ACEDL
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Subject:
Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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<< if it wasnt ok for us non devs to use, then why was it put out? >>
Because not all devs are part of the private testing, so to get it into as many TPA devs hand's as possible they post it to the public. The Decal devs knew people would download it so they could use Tank, but what probably bothers them is:
1. People wanting to use old versions of Decal just so they can run tank. This does zero in helping them find issues.
2. People expecting things to work just perfectly (alpha software never does)
I know with Castaway that as soon as the next alpha/beta of Decal comes out, I'll refuse to help anyone running an older version of Decal if they have any problems.
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Arch_Magi
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Subject:
Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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Maddy_ACEDL posted:
<< if it wasnt ok for us non devs to use, then why was it put out? >>
Because not all devs are part of the private testing, so to get it into as many TPA devs hand's as possible they post it to the public. The Decal devs knew people would download it so they could use Tank, but what probably bothers them is:
1. People wanting to use old versions of Decal just so they can run tank. This does zero in helping them find issues.
2. People expecting things to work just perfectly (alpha software never does)
I know with Castaway that as soon as the next alpha/beta of Decal comes out, I'll refuse to help anyone running an older version of Decal if they have any problems.
Everything you say is very true except for 2 things.
1) 99.44% of the time, when software is "Alpha" it isn't released so that anyone can get to it, that is what is called "Beta" software, as in "Beta Tester" (of which, I have been a Beta Tester for Microsoft for 2 major games). But that is just symantics.
2) As much as people, specifically the Decal Devs, don't want to (and actually HATE to) admit it, ElTank is a driving force in the world for Decal Applications. My suggestion is that they "burry the hatchet" and work more closely with Elgarl, because it is painfully obvious, that the USERS of Decal want ElTank and will base their Decal usage on if that version works with ElTank.
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Maddy_ACEDL
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Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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<< 99.44% of the time, when software is "Alpha" it isn't released so that anyone can get to it >>
And this isn't a regular software development project where they have paid Q&A personal to help do much of this testing. I should note that 95.3% of all statistics are made up, so I would be interested in knowing how you came up with yoru number.
<< that is what is called "Beta" software, as in "Beta Tester" >>
No, it is called Alpha software. I'm sure the Decal devs have a firm knowledge as to if their product is Alpha or Beta stage. Alpha software is "usually" internal testing, but nothing says it has to be. Ditto for beta. The main definitions of these is alpha software is early release of software that is known to have bugs andbeta is why most of the bugs should be fixed and dealing with the finalization of code.
<< because it is painfully obvious, that the USERS of Decal want ElTank and will base their Decal usage on if that version works with ElTank. >>
This user of Decal could care less if Tank is working or not. I know many other users of Decal that feel that same way. Best of my knowledge Elgarl has been involved since the very early alpha testing of Decal, long before it went public so sound slike they (the Decal devs) have involved Elgarl.
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Drakier
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Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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Arch_Magi:
Once again you should not speak on issues you know nothing about.
It is called Alpha because we still INTEND on breaking it, but as Maddy said, we want to get it out to as many plugin devs as possible so they can START updating their plugins. We released it at a "Beta" quality but still calling it Alpha because of our intention on breaking things.
Also.. Elgar was one of the very first devs to start alpha testing. This was intentional. Then again you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to the happenings of the Decal Development or Testing, so you probably shouldn't discuss these topics seeing as how you know nothing about what's happening behind the scenes.
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Arch_Magi
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Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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Whatever Drak, I know more than you think I know, and I know how the professional software industry as well as the Free and Shareware community works. I know what is an "alpha" and what is a "beta". Call it what you want, do what you want, it doesn't matter. "A rose by any other name is still a rose."
I'll stop posting now, not because you are right, but because I don't feel like drawing a ban.
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Lokkie_the_Fierce
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Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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You've officially declared you won't help anyone here, which is fine by me and is totally up to you and the other devs.
You've directed all posts to the official site, and even created a forum for users to help other users.
You posted a link so that developers could get a working copy, and knew that end-users would take advantage and use the link. In my case, I'm extremely thankful because it means I can run Decal again. I accept if there is an issue, well, tough cheese.
My point? Its been said time and time again - Just. Ignore. These. Posts.
You've already made your disclaimer, you've already complained about supporting it (don't blame ya), so ... drop it. End users will continue to download, install, mess up, complain - heh, same as with an official release. All that is happening is you are getting frustrated.
Seems simple to me.
/e shrug
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Arch_Magi
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Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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Lokkie_the_Fierce posted:
You've officially declared you won't help anyone here, which is fine by me and is totally up to you and the other devs.
You've directed all posts to the official site, and even created a forum for users to help other users.
You posted a link so that developers could get a working copy, and knew that end-users would take advantage and use the link. In my case, I'm extremely thankful because it means I can run Decal again. I accept if there is an issue, well, tough cheese.
My point? Its been said time and time again - Just. Ignore. These. Posts.
You've already made your disclaimer, you've already complained about supporting it (don't blame ya), so ... drop it. End users will continue to download, install, mess up, complain - heh, same as with an official release. All that is happening is you are getting frustrated.
Seems simple to me.
/e shrug
100% in agreement.
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Drakier
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Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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Huh? You don't want me to correct misinformation?
What Arch_Magi has been saying is MISINFORMATION.
I owe it to some of the users to clear up misinformation.
Sorry that the truth hurts, but I owe that to users as well, and the truth is, many of the people who have downloaded the alpha most likely should not be using it.
I can't help it that I tell people things they don't want to hear. I tell them the truth. I don't sugar coat it or play as if it's ok... because it isn't. As for your comment Loki.. I did actually give up on posting anything in this thread until I saw more misinformation from Arch_Magi. The minute I don't see anything that needs to be cleared up is the minute I stop posting about Decal issues here.
If people don't ask, I don't tell. It's not like I run around constantly creating my own threads talking about how most people shouldn't be running Alpha Decal. I tell it to the people who seem to not know it already, and anyone else happens to click in (like you or Arch_Magi) and start bringing up the same debate over and over again. I wasn't posting to you. I was posting to the original poster who may not know any better. Chances are, when I post, I am usually posting toward the author of the post I'm replying to.
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Arch_Magi
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Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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You want the truth Drak?
You know why there was a "Public Alpha" where everyone could get ahold of it? Because people were whining and moaning that Decal was taking way too long to complete, so you caved into "public pressure" and released a "Public Alpha" and then made all the disclaimers saying "Use at own risk, we ain't gonna help you if we don't want to, etc" ... which is FINE.
Then you guys threw a hissy fit (you know you guys are getting good at that, first when Turbine changed the ToS about Macros, now the latest ones), and said "No more support on vnboards (which is fine, provide official support on your own boards, but PLEASE don't come here and tell people what to do, it just makes you appear "power hungry") and then YOU go off and say "stop using Alpha 3, use Alpha 4, because we don't need people testing Alpha 3 because we are about to release Alpha 5 and bugs were fixed in Alpha 4. Fine, that is logical, for your TESTERS and Devs, but not for those of us who you "abandoned" to use what you PUBLICALLY RELEASED (you know, just like the words on the Decal Site say .. PUBLIC ALPHA).
Basically, you guys aren't happy with anything.
So, here are my suggestions:
1) If you want to only provide support on your own board, fine. But don't come here and tell people to shut up when people are helping other "end users" out because you won't. If they want "official support", they know where to go.
2) If you want people to test "Alpha 4", that is fine too. Recruit people to do it. I'd suggest on your own board.
3) If you don't want people using Alpha 3, then disable it. You put that feature in the software. You can't just do #4, because the cat is already out of the bag.
4) Put a password on your site and only allow "testers" to use the Alphas. You guys wanted "complete control", that is why you moved support and information to your own site. Spend 30 seconds and set up a password on the release. But we know that won't happen, because the "masses" would hate that, and even fewer people would actually test your software.
5) Stop reading threads like this if you are not going to provide support. It only frustrates you and annoys others.
Again, those are my suggestions, use them as you will.
Have a nice day.
P.S.
Drakier posted:
What Arch_Magi has been saying is MISINFORMATION.
Yeah, right.
Sell that one to someone who is buying it. People here know what the meaning of the word "Alpha" is, and what "Beta" is. You claim that is why you keep posting, to "correct me". Sorry, not buying it.
Alpha, Beta, and Gamma testing
In software development, testing is usually required before release to the general public. This phase of development is known as the alpha phase. Testing during this phase is known as alpha testing.
In the first phase of alpha testing, developers test the software using white box techniques. Additional inspection is then performed using black box or grey box techniques. This is usually done by a dedicated testing team. This is often known as the second stage of alpha testing.
Once the alpha phase is complete, development enters the beta phase. Versions of the software, known as beta-versions, are released to a limited audience outside of the company. The software is released to groups of people so that further testing can ensure the product has few faults or bugs. Sometimes, beta-versions are made available to the open public to increase the feedback field to a maximal number of future users.
Testing during the beta phase, informally called 'beta testing, is generally constrained to black box techniques although a core of test engineers are likely to continue with white box testing in parallel to the beta tests. Thus the term beta test can refer to the stage of the software—closer to release than being "in alpha"—or it can refer to the particular group and process being done at that stage. So a tester might be continuing to work in white box testing while the software is "in beta" (a stage) but he or she would then not be part of "the beta test" (group/activity).
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Drakier
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Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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"You know why there was a "Public Alpha" where everyone could get ahold of it? Because people were whining and moaning that Decal was taking way too long to complete, so you caved into "public pressure" and released a "Public Alpha" and then made all the disclaimers saying "Use at own risk, we ain't gonna help you if we don't want to, etc" ... which is FINE."
You're trying to tell ME why there was a Public Alpha? Are you forgetting I'm one of the insiders? I'm one of the ones MAKING the decision? And you sit there and try to tell me I'm wrong, and try to tell me the "truth" as to why there was a Public Alpha? *laughs* keep fooling yourself. It's obvious you aren't listening to anything I'm saying, and I think you don't understand my role in the development of Decal.
As for the support.. *I* never said I was stopping support here. a FEW of the Decal Devs said they will not longer provide support here. That is NOT official for everyone. That is THAT DEV which will not be providing support... as for Decal Support, yes.. it SHOULD be on the Decal Forums. That's just the obvious thing to do.. if you want support for ANY Software, chances are, you should go to the Support section of that product.... their Support Forums usually.
The reasons for public release was because of management issues with the userbase. We didn't have the time to go through and add EACH PERSON to the alpha test and give EACH PERSON individual access would take WAY longer than any of us were willing to spend. We also admitted that the initial public release was actually a BAD IDEA and in retrospect we admitted we made a mistake. The damage on that is done.
As for support in THESE threads.. I AM providing support.. I'm supporting Decal. the support for OLD VERSIONS of Decal is to UPGRADE. I don't care if it doesn't work with ELTank. That isn't my problem. And next time, I'm going to personally delete old versions from the site regardless of if tank works with the new versions or not.
The only reason we DIDN'T delete it was because Tank didn't work with Alpha 4 and we didn't want to screw Elgar out of development and testing time. HE was aware of the problems and HE was willing to accept HIS support issues for Alpha 3 (which he does on his board).
As for the correcting you.. I wasn't correcting you about what the worlds "alpha" and "beta" mean.. although you DO have them wrong in the sense of our testing cycles. Alpha is an initial cycle where there are PLANNED breakages. We PLANNED to break the interfaces of WorldFilter, ACHooks, and most of Decal. You do NOT call a product BETA if you PLAN on making breaking changes. That's just dumb. If you don't believe me, ask ANY software ENGINEER with experience in the software lifecycle. The product was brought up to a BETA QUALITY before it was released which means it had very few, if any, outstanding BUGS. Don't get the term QUALITY confused with the state of the product. The STATUS of Decal is Alpha because of breaking changes. The QUALITY of Decal is Beta because of it's bug count.
What I WAS correcting you on was Elgar being involved in the testing. You made it sound as if we didn't talk to Elgar ever and we left him out in the cold to work on his own. That is simply not true and is misinformation.
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Maddy_ACEDL
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Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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<< Basically, you guys aren't happy with anything. >>
They (Decal devs) or you aren't happy with anything? I'll say the latter.
In your definitions you posted, did you happen to look up the meaning of the word "usually"? Anyone can copy/paste from Wikipedia, understanding what you copy/paste is another issue. Plus taking Wikipedia as the "truth" can leave you bitten in the rear.
Here is another set of definitions for you, who is right? http://www.softwareqatest.com/qatfaq1.html
alpha testing - testing of an application when development is nearing completion; minor design changes may still be made as a result of such testing. Typically done by end-users or others, not by programmers or testers.
beta testing - testing when development and testing are essentially completed and final bugs and problems need to be found before final release. Typically done by end-users or others, not by programmers or testers.
Don't like those? I can google and get you some more and you'll see how in the software engineering industry there is no set definition of these terms. They tend to be close in that alpha means the software runs, but not with all functionality, and beta should be close to a finished product.
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Arch_Magi
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Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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Maddy_ACEDL posted:
Don't like those? I can google and get you some more and you'll see how in the software engineering industry there is no set definition of these terms. They tend to be close in that alpha means the software runs, but not with all functionality, and beta should be close to a finished product.
Sure, feel free ...
http://dict.die.net/alpha%20software/
alpha software
n : a first release of a software product that is usually tested only by the developers.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/alpha+software
Noun 1. alpha softwarealpha software - a first release of a software product that is usually tested only by the developers
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pvosta/pcrbioc.htm
Software Testing
Software testing is a process used to identify the correctness, completeness and quality of developed computer software. In software development, testing is usually required before release to the general public. In-house developers often test the software in what is known as 'alpha' testing which is often performed under a debugger or with hardware-assisted debugging to catch bugs quickly. This technique is known as white box or glass box testing.
It can then be handed over to testing staff for additional inspection in an environment similar to how it was intended to be used. This technique is known as black box testing. This is often known as the second stage of alpha testing.
Following that, limited public tests known as beta-versions are often released to groups of people so that further testing can ensure the product has few faults or bugs. Sometimes, beta-versions are made available to the open public to increase the feedback field to a maximal number of future users.
http://www.bitpipe.com/tlist/Alpha-Testing.html
Alpha Testing -- 1 Vendor Report
Testing a new product in pre-release internally before testing it with outside users.
Also called: Acceptance Testing
I'd also get the definition from several of the college text books when I got my degree nearly 2 decades ago, but I don't feel like driving home and digging into my old foot lockers. But hey, like I said, this is only symantics. You guys can and will do as you like.
Getting back on track, the question "Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4" was asked. The answer was given. Then the "finger pointing" and lectures about people not supposed to be using "old software" came up. The simple fact remains, that if someone wants to use "old software", they can. The Decal Devs have not pulled it from their site, so what is the big deal? I mean it isn't like they pulled it and someone else is hosting it (to which the only course of action would be to disable Alpha 3), no, Alpha 3 is still available from the source ... The Decal Devs own site. If they truely want people to stop using it, they can, with a few simple keystrokes, but they choose not to.
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Kyuzo.
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Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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5 seconds with google also finds this:
http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/A/alpha_version.html
"A very early version of a software product that may not contain all of the features that are planned for the final version. Typically, software goes through two stages of testing before it is considered finished. The first stage, called alpha testing, is often performed only by users within the organization developing the software. The second stage, called beta testing , generally involves a limited number of external users."
It seems like you are selectively choosing definitions to back your point. Notice the above definition includes "may not contain all of the features that are planned for the final version." This definition more closely resembles the decal dev's position on this matter. Given that there are a variety of definitions for what should be classified as alpha software I would suggest you take the definition provided by the decal devs. After all, they did state their position on the stages of decal development clearly and in advance of any public release.
As for who gets to test the software, I see a lot of phrases like "usually", "generally", and "most often" but I have yet to see a definition that states that "all" public testing is beta testing.
It must be really depressing to be wrong so often.
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Arch_Magi
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Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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Kyuzo. posted:
As for who gets to test the software, I see a lot of phrases like "usually", "generally", and "most often" but I have yet to see a definition that states that "all" public testing is beta testing.
It must be really depressing to be wrong so often.
I have yet to be proven wrong, and thanks for the additional link.
"The first stage, called alpha testing, is often performed ONLY by users within the organization developing the software."
Like I said before, 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999994% of Alpha Testing is done ONLY by people directly involved with the software (ie programming). No kidding that it isn't 100% of the time, but the VAST MAJORITY of Alpha software only sees the light of day to programmers.
But whatever. All this back and forth still misses the real issue, which is undesputable. The question was where can I get Alpha 3? The answer is "On the Decal Devs own website."
If they don't want people using it, then put a password on it so that only Devs can unlock it, and if they really want people to stop using Alpha 3 and move on to test other versions, then disable it. After all, this is "testing" not "playing".
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Hamfast
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Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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First I would ask the 3 of you, Arch_Magi, Drakier and Maddy... Are you smiling as you post?
If you are not smiling, stop posting... you are arguing with someone that will never see your side.
Second is I would like to thank the decal Devs (and who ever decided not to stop hosting Decal Alpha 3) for continuing to host the Alpha 3 version of Decal, even if it was beyond the "Testing Phase"... had you not, some one else would have had to (and I assume would have)... with luck, Alpha 5 will be out and we can all move forward together...
I look at the decision to open the Alpha 3 as one that supported Turbine and AC as well as the other stated reasons, the longer Decal took, the more folks wandered away from the table... that Decal was going to be broken again later was an acceptable part of getting it back in the first place...
I will give you some quick definitions we can use...
Alpha - Will be broken later as features are added and fixed...
Beta - May be broken later as features are added and fixed...
Release - may have features and fixes added later if it's broken...
Where did I get them? I made them up just now.
Ok, go back to your fun.
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Drakier
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Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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I'm always smiling. *grins*
it takes more than that to get me to not smile.
also.. I see wuite often that people misunderstand my post and take it defensively as if I'm attacking, which unless you know me is hard to know otherwise..
As for the original original question.. as I said then and will continue to say, alpha 3 is old and testers and developers should be building on alpha 4 and then on alpha 5 once it's released.
We know we can't keep anyone from using the older ones without creating a lot of headache for ourselves (it's not that easy to just "disable" old versions... regardless what some people would like to think). We just hope that people will be smart enough to follow the proper procedures when testing.
to be honest, I don't care if people are running alpha 3 privately. I just don't want to hear about it or attempt to support it. If it works for you, fine. Continue to use it. If not, I don't want to hear about it. I'm not going to point you at where to get older versions. I'm not going to support older versions.
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Arch_Magi
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Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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Hamfast posted:
First I would ask the 3 of you, Arch_Magi, Drakier and Maddy... Are you smiling as you post?
I look at the decision to open the Alpha 3 as one that supported Turbine and AC as well as the other stated reasons, the longer Decal took, the more folks wandered away from the table... that Decal was going to be broken again later was an acceptable part of getting it back in the first place...
I always smile when I'm posting. Posting angry is pointless.
As for that other paragraph, that is what I figured. People weren't going to "accept" the timetable of "Christmas" as a release date. They would move on to other methods (and games) and it (and AC) would just die.
As for thanks, I am very thankful of Decal. It makes the game bearable in the endless grinding that is high level play. If it was really "officially cancelled", I'd most likely stop playing.
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Maddy_ACEDL
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Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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<< Given that there are a variety of definitions for what should be classified as alpha software I would suggest you take the definition provided by the decal devs. >>
Which is my point. I could toss up my text book definition of alpha testing from the Software Engineering course I completed this year, it tends to back up the definition being used by the Decal devs (see Sommervile "Software Engineering" Seventh edition).
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Maddy_ACEDL
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Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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<< First I would ask the 3 of you, Arch_Magi, Drakier and Maddy... Are you smiling as you post? >>
Wouldn't be posting if I didn't find it amusing in some fashion. 
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Hazridi
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Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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Gotta love how Arch_Magi turns everything into a semantics argument -- only valid complaint he can dig up.
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Arch_Magi
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Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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Hazridi posted:
Gotta love how Arch_Magi turns everything into a semantics argument -- only valid complaint he can dig up.
I gotta love how certain Decal Devs come off like they are Gods and that nobody knows nothing if they aren't a part of their "clique".
You wanna take a dig on me, fine, I'll dig back.
The original poster asked a direct question, and a "common user" gave the answer, then a Decal Dev came in and proceeded to give him a lecture on the use of "old software". The simple fact is that people are tired of being talked down to, and I for one do not buy into their "Godship". Maybe when people start treating people with a little respect and no longer talk down their nose at people, others will reciprocate.
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Drakier
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Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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you perceive what I said as being talked down to.
I was not talking down to anyone.
I was simply stating that Decal 3 is outdated software, and it is appreciated if people running old software update.
Read into what I say all you want. Doesn't change what I said.
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Madgic
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Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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Hiya me again,
Arch for president!!!!
Its long reading but what he says makes sence.
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Hazridi
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Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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Arch, if you're going to take a dig at me, at least choose something with some bite, man. The god complex thing's a bit old.
The reason we say you don't know anything is that you insinuate and insist you know what's going on. You do not. You spread what you think is going on, and it's wrong. It's that simple. Elgar was one of the first testers added to the private alpha; he's been an invaluable aid to our testing and we work with him every time he has issues. If you'd like, feel free to ask him. If you notice, even Gouru has stopped with his not using the Tank party line. Though I'm sure he'd tell users that he wish they didn't use LifeTank, maybe his issues with ElTank have been ameliorated. Gouru's been pretty damn busy, so I'm not sure if that's the case or not, but it certainly could be.
The only reason this is even an ISSUE is that Alpha 4 is broken because of some issues that Elgar found that we have fixed. These issues prevent anything other than amazingly simple HUDs from functioning due to a late night sign mismatch. And afterwards we had a massive codeshift from MCBS to Unicode (by me), and Checksum rewrote the hooking dll. As you can imagine, switching over to Unicode brought up some new bugs, and exposed some old ones. So an Alpha 4 refresh couldn't happen unless we got the tagged alpha 4 code, fixed it, tested it, and released that -- a bit of a nightmare, and we decided this was not a valid use of our time. Alpha 5 is looking much more stable and we've isolated the major issue users were having, so it should be out shortly.
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Myrdhyn
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Anyone know where I can find decal alpha 3? Decal site only has alpha 4
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Lately the only god complex I've sensed is coming from Arch trying to tell everyone he knows everything and how it really works.
Though I guess if Haz and Drak want we could make em demi gods, but they would have to improve their talking down to people to convince me.
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