MT_Gouru
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Paraduck: Locked by poster's request.
MOD edit- Please read page 5 before posting!!! IBN has posted that the CoC was NOT supposed to change and will be changed back!!
With the change in CoC all unattended play (not just combat) is now forbidden. This includes tradebots, craftbots, tinkbots, buffbots, and virtually any other kind of bot you can think of. (well...technically, standing unattended with no 3rd party utilites loaded in one place doing absolutely nothing is still legal)
However, according to Ibn, they are not changing their enforcement standards, which based on past performance would mean to me that if a particular envoy on a particular day decides to enforce some part of the CoC, you will be banned.
They spent quite a bit of time crafting their old CoC to help clarify what is and isn't legal. The good news is the new one is very clear. The bad news is that most uses of Decal are now against the CoC.
Removing the functionality that makes botting possible also removes all the functionality required for proper use of Decal, and as best I can tell, anything we do will be against the CoC.
Not wanting to put our toons at risk. Decal is now officially dead.
p.s....
I haven't decided if this is a joke post or not yet....
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Gdinero_FF
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lol, you're going to incite a riot
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Hazridi
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It's really not a joke post, Gouru. You know as well as I do that this new wording absolutely must change. Unattended macroing of any kind now being prohibited prevents anyone from doing something as innocuous as a fletching macro, let alone trade bots.
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Greyed
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OMG, or InstaOg! hehe
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Embalmer_MT
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On my word hope this is a joke post if not I OUIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Ascus
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There are MANY decal Apps that are not used for Unattended Play.
For Example my Plugin DCS. It simply tells you what color armor is so you don't have to try it on.
Many Radar enhancers like BS/2 and Sixth Sence
ALso treasure sorters, Imp Inventory and BS/2.
Many others have no automation what so ever, such as Map Enhancers (ACNav), UI enhancments (Stoic), and monster Info (AC Monster)
I do not think the automated buffs are against CoC.
Decal will be arround it not supported, just will be underground.
It Decal does go unsupported because of this, it was just show that the Decal Devs where infact hypocritcal macroers.
I really hope this is a joke post.
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Maddy_ACEDL
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This wouldn't include such plugins as XP/Hour trackers, things like Bandit Sight, etc.
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OnceKnownAsAniker
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wow that is lame, they supported what decal has done with AC (be it keeping there dieing player base happy)
now there changing the CoC to screw us over?!
they could of atleast made a built in self buffing system for ToD like they talked about in the past...
but im sure this is just a cruel joke..! 
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Ascus
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I think AC dies with Decal. For me it does.
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The_Korrigan
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You are really cruel, Gouru 
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ElgarL
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Lol, people get wound up too easily  .
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Gamemaster1121
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The CoC now states:
"Use of unauthorized third-party software or macros with the Software may be prohibited in the sole discretion of Turbine. Specifically, you may not use third-party software which allows your character to gain experience points or items without being at the keyboard, ready to respond to Turbine staff on demand (this activity is commonly called an “Unattended Macroâ€). Logging off as soon as an admin appears (visible or invisible) or when an admin tries to speak with you will be taken into consideration in determining the use of Unattended Macros."
So yes, technically, buff bots and crafting macros are now considered unattended macros though trade bots are not.
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Immersed-In-Blood
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hmmmmm turbine wants players to come back but they take all the 3rd party plug-ins away? im sure ppl will want to come back now GOOD JOB TURBINE!
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MT_Gouru
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O
M
G
Because we would choose to follow the CoC, just like we always have, that would make us hypocritical macroers?????
I would love to see how you make that connection, I've always been a fan of Rube Goldberg.
Yes, in-game huds and 'info-only' type plugins could probably remain. At least until their legal department gets ahold of the CoC again.
Buffbots gain xp from buffing (admittedly not a lot) and often gain items (through donations). That is what the CoC kills for most bots.
Edit: Tradebots are gaining items. They are selling for a profit. If they gave everything away for no charge, and earn no xp while doing it, then they would be legal. But if they actually 'trade', then they are against the CoC.
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Ascus
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So yes, technically, buff bots and crafting macros are now considered unattended macros though trade bots are not.
What kind of trade bot does not gain items? They prohibited in a literal translation of the CoC.
I gues you could make a bot that gave items away and still be within the CoC 
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Yula_the_Mighty
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Before everyone starts freaking out, there is no change in Turbine policy. Only a change in wording by the legal staff.
Ibn posted:
The wording may have been changed by legal but there has been no change in policy or enforcement. Closing before the inevitable UCM flames start.
Link to complete post:
http://forums.ac.turbinegames.com/showthread.php?p=224450#post224450
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TrippEssex
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good.
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Tulia_
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The CoC now states:
"Use of unauthorized third-party software or macros with the Software may be prohibited in the sole discretion of Turbine. Specifically, you may not use third-party software which allows your character to gain experience points or items without being at the keyboard, ready to respond to Turbine staff on demand (this activity is commonly called an “Unattended Macroâ€). Logging off as soon as an admin appears (visible or invisible) or when an admin tries to speak with you will be taken into consideration in determining the use of Unattended Macros."
So yes, technically, buff bots and crafting macros are now considered unattended macros though trade bots are not.
Actually unfortunately yes trade bots are as well you are able to gain ITEMS IE what you are paid for what you sell. This sounds like it will be SUCKING soon 
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MT_Gouru
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On the 'good' side, they have included a 'sole discretion of Turbine' clause, which could PERHAPS mean individual plugins could be approved while others are not.
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DaMooster
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I'm new here, so please don't flame me too hard, but what if Turbine approves Decal?
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Danilo_Thann
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Did any of you, Decal Dev's, get any information on the API that was supposed to be built into the new Client? I understand that they, Turbine, did build something but did not release it.
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Ascus
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Because we would choose to follow the CoC, just like we always have, that would make us hypocritical macroers?????
The only thing that Decal does that what prohibited by the CoC was unattended play. Many things that Decal does (as listed in my post) have nothing to do to with unattended play and make playing AC more enjoyable. So if Decal was killed because of this CoC change, it would only be that the decal developers themselves believed that Decal was only used for unattened play.
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Omen_Re
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This new CoC is in a way good, but also bad. There are still a lot of people who use third party plugins and such but dont use them unattened. They really need to loosen it up a bit because this is definetly gonna make a lot of people angry. But on the other hand no more anoying macroers.. I guess this new CoC is good but at the same time bad depends on who and how u look at it.
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MT_Gouru
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=================
Before everyone starts freaking out, there is no change in Turbine policy. Only a change in wording by the legal staff.
======================
He claims it only a change in wording. It is not. It is a change in MEANING, and a big one.
And he is saying that their policy is different than their CoC? Then why have a CoC? Can we have their policy published so we have some guidelines then?
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The_Korrigan
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Some people are really bady addicted here :P
Want to do a "Decal free" VoD hunt with me on Verdantine, Gouru ? hehe
Very interesting image of the real "respect" people have for the decal devs here ... which equals to zero as soon as they stop doing exactly what they want.
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MT_Gouru
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Ascus, Huhhhh?????
When have we EVER said unattended play was bad? We have said over and over that we are against unattended COMBAT.
Unless somehow you have a dictionary that defines 'play' as 'combat', or uses a very unique definition of the term 'hypocrit', you're post and accusations are simply baseless lies.
Somehow, though, I am not surprised.
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Ibn_Turbine
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Woah, woah woah. You know, you can check with us on things like this, some people already have:
http://forums.ac.turbine.com/showthread.php?t=23705
Keep in mind that this clause has been part of the EULA for some time: "We reserve the right to prohibit the use of any third-party software to change game play in Asheron’s Call, without prior notice to you."
There are no plans to change current CoC or otherwise enforcement. We're not banning people for tradebots or buffbots or macroing arrowheads.
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_boneyard_
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lol, the first person already linked to this thread on the official forum, it was gone faster then i could report it
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ElgarL
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Gouru does have a point. If their policy doesn't jive with their CoC then one of them has to change. If not people only have the option of trying something until they are banned.
You may not be banned by one envoy, but the next might.
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Ascus
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Gouru, I guess the word hypocrit was over the top. But to kill Decal because macros were now against CoC is quite an overkill as well.
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turnstyles
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joke.
decal can still prosper without macro programs
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Yula_the_Mighty
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MT_Gouru posted:
He claims it only a change in wording. It is not. It is a change in MEANING, and a big one.
And he is saying that their policy is different than their CoC? Then why have a CoC? Can we have their policy published so we have some guidelines then?
Let me tell you what is happening. The first thread on this subject was closed with the quote I provided. Since that time further threads have been created asking for additional clarification. All such threads are being deleted by IBN. There is yet another thread on their board but I expect it to disappear at any moment.
Odds are IBN will be here shortly to repeat to you the same statement that I quoted.
Isn't the statement from IBN - nothing has changed sufficient at the moment. There is a good chance he will provide a more detailed post later on but he got a lot of fires to pour water on...
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Flenop
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Ibn's post (in this thread) does at least show that trade, buff, and crafting bots are all still OK.
Though the CoC could use more clarification on what IS enforced and what isn't, to be honest. It doesn't need it though.
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MT_Gouru
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================
Woah, woah woah. You know, you can check with us on things like this, some people already have:
http://forums.ac.turbine.com/showthread.php?t=23705
Keep in mind that this clause has been part of the EULA for some time: "We reserve the right to prohibit the use of any third-party software to change game play in Asheron’s Call, without prior notice to you."
There are no plans to change current CoC or otherwise enforcement. We're not banning people for tradebots or buffbots or macroing arrowheads.
==============================
No plans to change current CoC? Then what is this new one people are quoting?
And yes, you do reserve that right. It looks like you just did so.
Are we supposed to be following some CoC that exists in the past and in the minds of your Envoys, or the new one? The past was specifically limited to combat macros, the new one no longer has this limitation. What are we supposed to be following?
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KPD157
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Decal is a Macroing Program. Macroes are not unattended Bots. Macroes are simply instructions you can send with a single command that do something in the computer. Bots control the Macroes not are the Macroes. I personally think that Decal can survive without Bots and keep AC easy for most of us to handle. Letting a Program play for us is in my opinion wrong. But letting a Macro simplyfy a bunch of commands still leaving me in control of activating it is not.
I hope when the API comes out they will make it so that plugin makers don't have to work through Decal that we can give the Developers of Decal a break from all this nonesense rule figuring out stuff. They have done alot to make what we have now and I don't beleive they should be having to break their buns trying to figure out now if Decal is even a legal way of playing AC.
I have been playing for a while with Decal and I even made my own plugin which I like and doesn't Bot my character. I would like to see the ability to add functionality to the game be kept and something similiar to Decal Continue
My Two Pyreals
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Mawnee
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I've found it very tough to get a read on anything the guys at turbine say. Sometimes they are nice and assuring, then they bust out the iron nazi fist and alienate another chunk of thier dwindling player base. I'm starting to get the feeling that since turbine has other projects on thier burners, AC has become a testbed to test the limits of player base tolerance.
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Hamfast
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I would point out that a long while back in a post Ibn made he stated that UCM was running any macro unattended while affecting combat...
This would mean that even if you had started up (pick your favorite utility macro here) say RoboChef and made Arrow Heads... while standing in the Drudge Hideout where the drudges agro on you (you are an Uber, well armored, fully buffed tradesman) you could be banned for UCM...
So the In combat became affecting combat...
I have also read and been disturbed by the new wording... I run a free buffbot (or did until yesterday  ) and by the current wording, I think Buffy Buffbot may fall into that same area that Gouru refers to (She has a really high assess person...)
I would hope that Turbine will (again) change the wording and include "Affecting Combat" in it in some way...
Buffy is one of those "Dedicated Accounts" that some of us have... That account and Character have no other purpose but to be a buffbot.
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Elminster-HG
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I seriously doubt Turbine will ban Decal, trade bots, portal bots or buff bots since they would lose a lot of their players, especially the multiple account holders.
I hope all the Decal devs keep working on it while the wording is questioned. Many of us are playing now in the expectation that Decal will come back. If there is no Decal and no additional features get added by Turbine to compensate, then I'm gone.
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MonsterMadness
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If Decal dies then AC dies I will quit this game after playing the last 5 years and then Turbine can suffer for the player base they will lose. I know alot of ppl will quit faster than you can blink an eye. So turbine get your heads out of your asses and stop being so damn stupid you want AC to die ??
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Shantel_LC
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i just want to kow if its still safe for me to run Og in Shoushi still... i can't afford that account to get banned with 4 level 130+ toons on it.. and my buffbot that i usually let run cause i play my mage on my other account
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RhesusFF
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Please don't shelve Decal over this change. I'm uncomfortable with the change in the wording, but at the same time I feel a little deaf and blind IG now. Decal has extended the life of AC for me by some 3 years. I'm not a macroer, the highest level toon I have is level 148 and the next highest isn't even 90. Decal made SO much painful tedium in this game go away and while I can't help the abuse others have committed or Turbine's standing on this issue, the game will die without some sort of framework for taking out some of the game's tedium.
I wish Turbine had taken responsibility for Decal at some point. I wish they had given more than tacit approval of the framework. I didn't ge tmy wish, but I do hope the community will continue to support the product until either Turbine takes Decal as it's own or rolls something up that will give us a reason to continue playing.
Primarily I used:
Combater
(to shield me from lots of pointless chat scrolls)
MouseWheel 2
(to mousewheel scroll through monsters and corpses and players quickly)
DSC
(so I could quickly color check armor)
BS/2
(to quickly sift loot - good grief I'm hating the loot process now)
Nerfus Buffus 2
(to quickly buff myself and others)
Robochef
(to make consumables in support of my archers and meleers)
Magellan 2
(because I liked the handy encyclopedia of locations which I was maintaining and the dungeon HUD was invaluable to me)
ScrollSaver
(to manage needed scrolls across my several mages)
BanditMonarch
(to map our clan's allegiance structure)
And yes, I admit I used elTank, but only for two features; it had a simple buff botter for our mansion buff bot and I used the quest timers. Oh, and I liked the "Nude" button for quickly stripping my toons.
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ndlhsafhrfgyu
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this is funny 
ty for the laughs guru 
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ElgarL
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Quotes = Elminster-HG
I seriously doubt Turbine will ban Decal, trade bots, portal bots or buff bots since they would lose a lot of their players, especially the multiple account holders.
It's not really a matter of them not banning, it's a case of they cant say one thing and do another whilst telling everyone...'it's ok we wont really ban for this action'.
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Asper_TD
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Gouru, I have the utmost respect for you, but if you insist on taking them literally it will serve no purpose.
Any 3rd party program exists at their pleasure, it always has.
And if the lawyers have already taken this step to tighten up the wording covering 3rd party applications, I don't see that anything we do or say is going to reverse that.
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The_Korrigan
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If decal dies, I will still be playing AC. But that's of course not a surprise.
I think this thread is very interesting for the Turbine guys.
It shows that whatever amount of content and quests they add, including a brand new pack with a lot of content and goodies, some people value the work of third party programmers over their own work.
This is very interesting, and should make you think quite a bit, dear AC devs.
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Shaolin_TD.
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Kill decal and kill AC.
You can almost smell the fear at turbines hq.
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ParaKaZi
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Owned lol
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Ziyal_Felice
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Ibn posted this as a sticky on the Turbine website:
Please Read: There is no change to Code of Conduct policies or enforcement
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The wording of the Code of Conduct regarding third party apps has been changed, yes. Are we banning for anything we weren't banning for last week? No, absolutely not. We are not banning tradebots, buffbots, etc, only unattended combat macros.
We've always had the right to ban any third-party application, as per the End User License Agreement. Nothing regarding policies has changed, just the wording.
__________________
Alex "Ibn" Beckers
AC1 Online Community Relations
You have it in writing, so please don't abandon or kill Decal!
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-Zalliun-
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-What are we supposed to be following?
do you really exept turbine to come out with a consistent answer and a consistent enforcement.
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Bearforce1
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I suggest they change the CoC wording if they want to keep players. They ruined AC 2 so bad that hardly anyone plays that, if they don't want anyone playing AC:ToD ban Decal.
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_boneyard_
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lol, i wonder how many people noticed ibn also posted here many seem to only read the first post and then add something
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Ascus
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I think of this way, with every patch Turbine messes up something. Since the the ToD patch seemed to work well they had to mess up the CoC.
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-Zalliun-
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-lol, i wonder how many people noticed ibn also posted here
you really cant use ibn's post to anything when they ban your account because a envoy reads the CoC as its stated and not in the spirit its written
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Zxoltar_SoulReaper
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if yea ever wondered how much folks loved decal. I think you have your answer.
decal ftw
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Haus-der-Liebe
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Played AC/DT for around 5 yrs .. If it weren't for UCM and the ability to make XP while I slept/worked .. I'd still be lvl 30.
I don't have time to invest in manually leveling. RL responsibilities > leveling ..
I want to have a competitive char though when I log in to play .. and since I get at most an hour or two a week anymore .. I don't want to waste it leveling .. I want to go PvP .. the PvP engine in AC is the best I've ever seen/played ..
I've been banned twice for UCM on both of my accounts. I really wish I had UCM'd back when it wasn't enforced so that I could have at least one 210+ char .. I'd like to get some of them Aug gems which only macro'rs will benefit from ..
Anyways .. I only used decal for UCM .. no decal = no more lvl'n for me  .. heh, that or I go get a computer engineering degree from VA tech and write my own interface.
<edit> will miss the help .. thx for all you have done for me .. I appreciate the time and energy you guys invested into writing and maintaining those wonderful aides. Thanks <edit>
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Zonomar_Xisle
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The wording should not have changed like it did then.
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CyranosCottage
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Everyone knows, including turbine, there are good and useful plugins and decal has helped a lot.
And also everyone knows that there are people who abuse things they are given, and turbine tries to find those who decide to spit in everyones face and think they can get away with doing what they are told not to.
We also all know that to get Decal working for this expansion is a lot of work, and we all are grateful you take the time to help so many others out by keeping this tool working. You can't stop doing this great service for everyone because of the few..
If turbine had a problem with Decal, im sure they would have said it clearly to you to stop, and im sure devs dont want to hear you say your up and leaving..
I bet at-least a dev or two are floating around these boards also curious on Decal, when it will be up, and if it will still exist.. Because if it stops then Turbine is gonna have a lot of people asking turbine to come up with a bunch of things lol.
I'm sure you can look around and find a few plugins you can say to your self with out them you'd be lost at times
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dh123lh1
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well ban DECAL< and you end my playing AC totaly and my PAYING OF TURBINE, and im sure many many more than me will say to heck with this lts go play something where they dont
HARASS HAPPY PLAYERS OUT OF THE GAME
AC DEV'S ARE YOU INSANE, DO YOU WANT YOUR JOBS TO END, KILL DECAL, WILL KILL AC, AND ALSO KILL YOUR JOB'S FOOL'S.
Seriously If DECAL isnt back up and running with bots by the next PMT Date, I will Cancel my account and im sure many many more than me will also follow with canceling their account's, BUT TURBINE DOSENT WANT ANY MONEY OUT OF THRONE OF DESTINY THEY JUST SPENT MILLIONS IN DEVELOPING IT TO TOTALLY ALIENATE ALL THEIR PLAYER BASE TO SEE HOW LONG IT TAKES THEM TO KILL THE BEST GAME EVER.
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Ibn_Turbine
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Folks seem to understand that the Envoys are like rogue agents or something, let me assure that's not the case. If Katahdin doesn't say "Do this differently," they're not going to change their procedures just because the wording of the CoC has changed.
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MT_Gouru
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I am a strong believer in following the CoC.
The CoC now bans most ALL botting activity.
Ibn has stated that they are going to ignore the CoC and not ban for anything except combat macroing.
When I login to the game, I agree to follow the CoC, I don't remember seeing a clause or anything 'Except where defined by Ibn on the Turbine forums'.
The CoC is binding, Ibn's comments are not.
Critical issue? No, the intent has been made clear.
However, it is STILL an issue that needs to be resolved unless Turbine wants to make every buff/trade/tink bot scofflaws, clearly violating the CoC with every action they take.
IBN...The point is still being missed...
You keep saying that only the 'wording' has been changed. It has NOT. The MEANING has been changed. Bots that were once legal, are no longer legal according to the CoC. How can you claim that is just a 'wording' change???
Words have meaning. (Unless your Humpty Dumpty and just define your own)
EDIT:
I agree that you have ALWAYS withheld the right to ban any plugin for any reason at anytime, and that has not changed, nor has it. My issue is with the ones the CoC specifically calls out as being against the CoC. The old banned UCM, the new bans all macroing. As I understood it, you're right to ban any plugin was in addition to those specifically banned in the CoC, not in place of it. I really don't think you want to be specifically banning each combat macro by name, that is a never ending task, one that was adequately covered by the old CoC.
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Zero_Washu
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Folks seem to understand that the Envoys are like rogue agents or something, let me assure that's not the case. If Katahdin doesn't say "Do this differently," they're not going to change their procedures just because the wording of the CoC has changed.
-------------------
IOW, keep on macroing with your admin alerts
UCM in AC is such a given why do ya'll even bother to comment on Decal threads? Buffbots ruined AC as much as UCM did, too bad ya'll don't understand that.
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Ibn_Turbine
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Further updates on this:
We are now investigating the possibility that this language change was in itself unintentional. Further status update when I have it.
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Drakier
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dh123lh1: don't let Decal not being up force you to unsub your account...
there is still a likely chance that Decal will take a while to get updated to work properly. I personally just don't have the knowledge to do it all myself.. I've done a lot, but not nearly enough. Unfortunately, the people who have the knowledge are very busy and lack time/motivation to do anything about it.
I haven't given up yet (personally) and I will continue to try to get thing working, but I can't make any guarantees to ANY timeframe. Hopefully sooner than later, but at this point, its hard to make any guesses.
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Haus-der-Liebe
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They can say it's illegal and ban me all they want. I simply do not have the time IRL to invest in maintaining and keeping up with the "Jones's".
I accept fully the responsibility of my actions. I'm simply to addicted to quit. If they perma my accounts, I'd simply purchase another and start over. There is no other game in existance that can compete with this one.
AC/DT is simply the best game and has been for the past 5 1/2 yrs.
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-Faile-Bashere-
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Theoretically speaking, Gouru, even if one follows the wording of the new COC verbatum, it is still legal to RUN any Decal application as long as you are at the keyboard and ready to answer an envoy. So any fletching or buffing macro is still good and valid, as long as you are at the keyboard.
So, unless you are either:
a) joking
b) looking for an excuse to drop work on Decal
c) looking to get more "luv" from the crowds
this thread is not casting a good light on you. IMHO.
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"Further updates on this:
We are now investigating the possibility that this language change was in itself unintentional. Further status update when I have it."
And here we have folks our first official sign of weakness and dependence of Turbine in front of Decal devs. WOW. I am impressed
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Retired lvl 126(AC), lvl49(AC2), lvl28(AO), lvl 12(HZ), lvl 49(WoW) Bandits Reborn: http://www.banditsreborn.com My AC1/AO/HZ utilities: http://www.banditsreborn.com/banditutils.htm When 20,000 posts you reach, look as good you will not
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The_Korrigan
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IBN, Gouru is right.
We need a clear, official wording of what is allowed and was is not.
And not a text saying "white" in the CoC on the website and a dev (Ibn) saying "black" on the forums.
And I also still urge you to do a brainstorming session with your public relation team about the dependancy of the player on Decal, a plugin interface which is totally out of your control (unless you lied about not supporting it of course), and its influence on the future of AC1 ...
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Hogann
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I've played for almost 5 years now. I've used Decal for most of that. I have NEVER macroed for experience. I've used a tradebot for about a month and a buffbot off and on. 99% of what I use decal for is information gathering/processing and buffing.
As a monarch, I've had to start giving a crash courses in self buffing for those of my followers that are hooked on buffbots. Turning around and telling them that this is now a permanent situation will be... unpleasant... at best.
I know this might be frustrating, and yes, I agree, they shouldn't say one thing and do another, but I feel decal should remain around, even if it only enables things like self buffing and information handling.
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Windier
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Essentially, Gouru and co. are blackmailing Turbine. "We don't like your CoC, so change it or we'll pull the plug on Decal."
If Ibn says that they won't ban for it, then they won't ban for it. *shrug*
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ndlhsafhrfgyu
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decal lovers = crack addicts 
lol once they use decal they need it or quit
i agree with the above^^ 
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Lokkie_the_Fierce
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"And here we have folks our first official sign of weakness and dependence of Turbine in front of Decal devs. WOW. I am impressed "
/e snickers
I thought the same when I saw his post
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Windier
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edit
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CyranosCottage
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Gouru, I think your point is great and now I see IBNs last post..
Rules should be read in the most detail that they can be and not to be taken as a wording to have people come up with their own ideas of what they mean. So by you saying you wont get decal up because it bans too many things to what you read from it with out saying its your take on it is good.
Hopefully IBN is gonna get us details on how they didnt see that as an issue no longer is an issue in the future
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_boneyard_
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<< this thread is not casting a good light on you. IMHO. >>
it wouldn't be the first thread from gouru that does that
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-Zalliun-
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-Essentially, Gouru and co. are blackmailing Turbine
that would most likely mean they would get paid something for their work and i doubht that will happend
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MT_Gouru
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I'm not sure if I'd recognize a good light if one was ever shown on me.
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Shaolin_TD.
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It's not blackmail.
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dh123lh1
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these posts on AC turbines site in the fourms so quit the DECAL IS DEAD BULL
url
http://forums.ac.turbine.com/showthread.php?t=23804
Today, 02:55 PM #1
Ibn
AC1 Online Community Relations
Please Read: There is no change to Code of Conduct policies or enforcement
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The wording of the Code of Conduct regarding third party apps has been changed, yes. Are we banning for anything we weren't banning for last week? No, absolutely not. We are not banning tradebots, buffbots, etc, only unattended combat macros.
We've always had the right to ban any third-party application, as per the End User License Agreement. Nothing regarding policies has changed, just the wording.
__________________
Alex "Ibn" Beckers
AC1 Online Community Relations
Re: Please Read: There is no change to Code of Conduct policies or enforcement
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We're now investigating the possibility that the wording change was made in error. Further updates when I have them.
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Ascus
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Gouru, we still love ya.
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-Faile-Bashere-
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Well, it is sort of blackmail. Decal devs are demanding a COC with legal unattended play (UCM excluded) or they drop work on Decal.
Turbine is complying.
On the other hand, players can demand say a new dungeon or they quit, and that is also blackmail
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Orgazme
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with this all said..
im not coming back to ac.. turbine doesnt know how to run a mmorpg like they used to
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-Faile-Bashere-
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dh123lh1,
Obviously you're new around here. If Gouru and Co say Decal is dead, they are pretty much dead on right, since they are Decal developers.
Which is why this thread is so very interesting to follow
-----signature-----
Retired lvl 126(AC), lvl49(AC2), lvl28(AO), lvl 12(HZ), lvl 49(WoW) Bandits Reborn: http://www.banditsreborn.com My AC1/AO/HZ utilities: http://www.banditsreborn.com/banditutils.htm When 20,000 posts you reach, look as good you will not
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Shaolin_TD.
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What you call blackmail, i call value for money.
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The_Korrigan
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You can make them do what you want now, make Ibn stand on his head wearing nothing but a string and make him post photos please. I need a good laugh.
Or did I miss the real point once again ?
-----signature-----
SWTOR: 50 Jedi Shadow (Tank), 50 Sith Marauder (Annihilation).
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GW2: Future Warrior.
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vn_godoflife
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well they do something i know absolutely nothing about, and i sure am glad they do it :-)
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_boneyard_
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/me starts looking for a good light
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[ac] boneyard: lvl 126 crappy enchanter and lousy daggerfighter of harvestgain [ac] grutte pier: lvl 126 frisian pink robed sniper [wow] pier: lvl 58 orc warrior of lightning's blade boardsearch: http://boardsearch.sf.net
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ndlhsafhrfgyu
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tells you to go look in the light section of home depot
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DemonMage
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I got a couple of good lights I'll sell you. Low low price of an Eternal Health and Stamina kits.
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Shaolin_TD.
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For too long has Turbine had free and much needed 'Enhancements' to their game, it's about time someone around here grew a pair.
(reliable).
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Ayame_Saiyan
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A large majority of players use decal. It's like giving someone crack. Once they're hooked, they'll do anything to keep it.
"If we can't have decal, we quit!"
I use decal, but I can play without it. it's just more of a chore to salvage more than anything else. muwahah.
I played for 2 years without decal. I think I'm ok to go back to Elrihm if I can't use decal.
Afterall, an Archer plays itself. All you have to do it click and pull back the string on a target.
<3 repeat attack.
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CyranosCottage
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There is more to Decal then your macros
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Cyrano de Bergerac (Level 275 Grief Tank 3-School/Axer)
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Elminster-HG
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Decal isn't crack, it's a necessity! At least for those of us wishing to save on repetitive strain injuries
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KPD157
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1) I'd Like to see the wording of Macro not be used to include Unattended Macro. There are two types and the majority of those who actually play and not let a program play for them uses the Attended ones
2) I'd like to see the burden of Decal taken out of the player bases hands and put into Turbines control as the only way to legally access the Client.
3) I'm tired of all these people who think that you cannot play without Automations playing for you and that Decal is nothing but a Bot Haven and UCM paradise.
4) I am ready for a life without Decal. I rather have my plugin and my Macroes which I have to attend in order for them to work. I do however not agree that Bots make AC a better place. It dehumanizes it and I think that the Decal Developers and the AC Developers need to find a way to remove them from the game and or the need for them.
Nuff Said
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Alltu_Tru
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blackmail does not have to involve money at all.... you can blackmail someone to get a disired result and it would STILL be blackmail even if NO money was involved in any way
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Dragon Rider-VT retired acc after 6 yrs
Alltu True-SC Alltu Tru-FF retired
Maybe there's a God above
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was how to shoot at someone who outdrew you
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MagikBrute
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Ibn_Turbine posted:
Folks seem to understand that the Envoys are like rogue agents or something, let me assure that's not the case. If Katahdin doesn't say "Do this differently," they're not going to change their procedures just because the wording of the CoC has changed.
Having been the object of 2 bans (quickley reversed I might add) by a "rouge" envoy(admin at the time). You will have to forgive me if I see it as Ban first (who cares if you pay my salary) and invetigate later.
Brute
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Jennifer_the_Great
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Amusing. Tag.
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Stupefied. 10/11/84 - 12/25/04 Jaclyn. 09/18/86 - 04/01/07
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Majielle
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I certainly hope you are wrong about decal being "dead" and if you are not, than I hope that Elgar can make Eltank work without decal.
I have been playing for four years and have used decal/eltank the last two or so. I use eltank to search for things, to navigate around Dereth, I use it to self buff (and buff others who might be in need), I use it to track my quests timers, I use it to communicate on more than one channel (bringing all the community closer to me), I use it to tell me how much a critter is when I kill it (pops right there for me), I track my comps and many other things, too numerous to mention.
All in all, Eltank/decal has kept me playing this game for the last couple of years. I never self buffed before tank, I found the spellbar to be encumbersome and tedious, trying to remember "what spell I last cast and which should be next", time consuming and certainly took away from the "fun" of playing.
These TPA's have ENHANCED my AC game time and game play. I don't UCM, I don't ACM... but I do like to use my time efficiently. I don't like doing repetitive tasks that bore you to tears, I want to have FUN. That's why I play an online computer game.
If I don't have these enhancements, I can see AC becoming just too tedious to even enjoy.
You can't unring a bell that has rung! You can't go backwards ... you can only move forward. AC won't ever be what it "used to be". There are not "good old days".. THESE are our good old days!
I hope that decal and Eltank live as long as AC itself. They make a great TEAM!
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Catriana / Betelgeuse - WE
Majielle - VT
Maji Elle - Frostfell
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Da_Cecile
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if i were a decal devs , this topic would push some pressure to turbine and test to knox if turbine admit the power of decal .
step One done : turbine admit very fast their dependancy on decal and are ok to satisfy any wish of decal devs .
step tow of decal devs : emailing turbine to ask them money to make a working decal ...
sorry but i like bashere i didnot understood the meaning of this topic .
i mean the coc is a good things but what s kills is the people using the weapon , not the one that make them .
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MT_Gouru
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================================
I hope that decal and Eltank live as long as AC itself. They make a great TEAM!
=================================
Boy, if I was undecided before...this post could push me right over the edge.
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illusion24
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I'm guessing they reworded something else in the CoC and accidentally left out the word "combat" in "unattended combat macro." Makes you wonder what the lawyers are paid for.
Personally I think it's about time Turbine and the decal devs sat down, decided what is and is not appropriate behavior, and coordinated their efforts. It's clear that the decal devs are willing to comply, even to the point of pulling the plug on decal, with the CoC. Turbine needs to decide if they want the decal devs to allow ACMing, and they need to communicate their decision to the public. Turbine needs to decide how they stand on tradebots, portal bots, UI extensions like 6th sense and BS/2, etc, they need to openly and clearly state their policy, and they need to post a clear and non-legal-ese CoC for all to read. There should be no difference between the CoC and Turbine's policy, nor should there be much by way of interpretation needed.
And, IMO, it's finally time for Turbine to stop being pansies and actually make a statement either supporting decal itself, or renouncing it. I'm sorry, Ibn, I know that's probably not what you guys want to hear, but it's the truth.
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Haus-der-Liebe
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roflmao ..
listen .. i'll be the first to admit abuse of what you guys have done .. i simply do not have the time to devote like i want .. you guys have seriously made this game fun and enjoyable for me ..
if i had a light .. i'd shine it all over you
either way .. thanks for all you have done ..
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but still bring a smile to your face when you push them down the steps
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Flenop
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Which edge, Gouru?
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http://www.bash.org/?628630 -------------------------- For the cheese!
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MonsterMadness
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Well I will say one thing the problems Decal Devs have with Elgar should not effect the decision on weather or not to keep Deacal alive. Yes we know you both have problems with each other but they are your porblems, we as players love both Deacal and Tank they both provide us with a great service and I think alot of ppl would even pay to be able to use both of them. But if Decal dies AC will most definately die with it...
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CyranosCottage
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MT_Gouru posted:
================================
I hope that decal and Eltank live as long as AC itself. They make a great TEAM!
=================================
Boy, if I was undecided before...this post could push me right over the edge.
couldn't ya ban certian programs somehow from using decal then? hehe
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Dev_Eldog
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You are missing the point when you compare Decal to Crack. Decal provides an interface that makes it easy to add functionality to the games UI. If you think that Decal users are addicted to anything, think instead that we are addicted to good game play.
Does anyone really think that the games UI is complete and doesn't need upgrades? Go play a few of the latest generation of MMORPGs and you'll get an idea of what features players expect from a UI.
Decal is a good thing and I appreciate all of the work that its developers have put into it.
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BMW_HG
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MT_Gouru
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Question on banning programs from Decal has come up before.
My stand is this, unless and until Turbine gives clear public guidelines on which programs should be banned, we won't do it. The old CoC allowed attended combat macroing. As much as I hate it, we're not banning it.
Turbine made it clear they were against Envoy Alarms, we did what we could to remove them, and even succeeded in getting some people banned that were depending on them. However, we don't have 'bans' in Decal yet, and are not ready to open that can of worms without close collaboration with Turbine.
Regardless of what people think, our desires are to improve the player experience, not turn it into Decal's Call.
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Mawnee
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---------------------------------
Folks seem to understand that the Envoys are like rogue agents or something, let me assure that's not the case. If Katahdin doesn't say "Do this differently," they're not going to change their procedures just because the wording of the CoC has changed.
---------------------------------
This is not about interpretation, you guys are well known for saying "no stand" "we wont take action" and then suddendly 180 degree your policy and start attacking players for continueing a playstyle they've grown accustomed to. I take the CoC change for exactly what it is, a window for more sweeping and game breaking changes. I've NEVER UCM'ed(highest char is 92), and these changes offended me.
And then come the +envoys handing out abuse and random play interruptions several times a day to players doing nothing wrong. After several rounds of unjustified abuse and harassment from the +envoys, I politely post on the turbine message boards asking for them to ease up a little, maybe at least try beign polite, I got gagged. Fair enough, accounts canceled for 9 months. Threatening to stop taking my money is weak threat, it means nothing. But if you are gonna interrupt my fun...I'll find somethign better to do.
So here I am, giving Ac another go, just to see the expansion(not impressed so far),though I am having fun. I'll leave it up to you guys, screw with my fun again though..and I'll move on. 
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I pinch
EQ, AC, AO, DAoC, E&B, SB, SWG, AC2, CoH, Eve, UO, Horizons, EQ2, WoW, MxO, VG, AoC, CO, STO, Aion......
....and still looking for a world to call home.
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Ibn_Turbine
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I just spoke to our project manager and our folks in legal. We confirmed that the change to the Code of Conduct was NOT intentional. Essentially it was a typo -- no one on the dev team or customer service saw it because the folks who wrote the new version didn't realize it was a change.
We'll be propping a new version of the Code of Conduct within a day or two that puts back the old language.
As I said, no one on the dev team or customer service had made any changes to our policies regarding UCM and third-party apps. I just needed to check with legal to find out why the wording had been changed -- as it turns out, they hadn't made any intentional change either.
Many apologies for the confusion. However I must point out that this could've been resolved with a lot less grief if the entire discussion had been handled more calmly.
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Ascus
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Many apologies for the confusion. However I must point out that this could've been resolved with a lot less grief if the entire discussion had been handled more calmly.
But it would not have been as much fun.
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MagikBrute
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Thank you Ibn.
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L_G
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Thats good news Thanks Ibn
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Enoch_VN
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Hrmmmm....
I started reading this and thought....great I just put all my ToD keys in and now I have to unsub them. Then I got to the end and thought.....hrmmm maybe I won't have to after all
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ndlhsafhrfgyu
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and then all the worlds go down... because ppl cant log in LOL
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MonsterMadness
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Alright well lets get this party started when we going to see Decal again LOL !!!
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ndlhsafhrfgyu
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LOL ^-^
 to you
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Rage_of_Mages
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I don't care if decal is revived. It is a nice tool, but not a necessity. It is a necessity to some because of how long it has been used.
Do I like it? yes. Could Turbine easily add some of it's features at a future date, I bet they could.
They might actually get more people by having a sponsored party like EQ2 and WoW have now.
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Vamp-Man
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From the CoC dated July 1 2005
Use of unauthorized third-party software or macros with the Software may be prohibited in the sole discretion of Turbine. Specifically, you may not use third-party software which allows your character to gain experience points or items without being at the keyboard, ready to respond to Turbine staff on demand (this activity is commonly called an “Unattended Macroâ€).
That is SPECIFIC. If you are gaining experience whilst not at the keyboard, you are in breacvh of the CoC. Almost every action in AC gains your character experience.
Posting Web links or URLs in the game that point to content deemed by Turbine to be inappropriate, including, without limitation, any Web links or URLs directed to other commercial products or services.
What do turbine deem to be inappropriate?
Typical of turbine, let's keep it grey so we can keep the last half dozen payers guessing
Yes, I meant payers.
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Impotence..Nature's way of saying "No hard feelings"
If you believe everything you read, better not read.
I used to cry because I had no shoes, then I met a man who had no feet.
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MonsterMadness
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Well to be honest with you I don't give a [moderated] about the CoC. I don't UCM but I do use Decal and Tank along with various other plugins and the way I see it is as long as I am at my keyboard then they don't have any legal action to ban me!!!
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therkyn
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Edit: Who cares... Decal may come back, it may die. If it dies, many of us leave and AC dies. This wasnt an issue on UCM, this was an issue about the wording that said Unattended Macros were illegal. I think the problem really centered around core capabilities of Decal that arent easily turned off if you enable things like looking around you.
-t
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Kazpr
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The amount of people who actually UCM I would think is minimul compared to the old days.
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-Xod-
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After reading the first post in the thread, the thought popped into my head of considering coming back..then I continued reading the thread, saw Ibn's posts and thought "nevermind".
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MonsterMadness
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Well heard nothing from Gouru since Ibn's last post was woundering if Decal was still dead or if he has changed his mind and going to fix decal for the devoted fans that use it!!
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Yula_the_Mighty
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Lastest update from IBN:
Ibn posted:
I just spoke to our project manager and our folks in legal. We confirmed that the change to the Code of Conduct was NOT intentional. Essentially it was a typo -- no one on the dev team or customer service saw it because the folks who wrote the new version didn't realize it was a change.
We'll be propping a new version of the Code of Conduct within a day or two that puts back the old language.
As I said, no one on the dev team or customer service had made any changes to our policies regarding UCM and third-party apps. I just needed to check with legal to find out why the wording had been changed -- as it turns out, they hadn't made any intentional change either.
Many apologies for the confusion. However I must point out that this could've been resolved with a lot less grief if the entire discussion had been handled more calmly
See link:
http://forums.ac.turbinegames.com/showthread.php?t=23804
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_boneyard_
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<< << Many apologies for the confusion. However I must point out that this could've been resolved with a lot less grief if the entire discussion had been handled more calmly. >>
But it would not have been as much fun. >>
so true
and ibn posted that here over an hour ago yula
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CyranosCottage
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Hey Yula_the_Mighty, look a few post above ya.. IBN posted that here to hehe
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OverdriveOfSoclaim
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Ibn_Turbine posted on 7/19/05 2:28pm
Folks seem to understand that the Envoys are like rogue agents or something, let me assure that's not the case. If Katahdin doesn't say "Do this differently," they're not going to change their procedures just because the wording of the CoC has changed.
Okay, so when my account gets banned, I can have you get it unbanned because you said I wouldn't get banned?
I'm gonna hold you to your word.
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Kilaban
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Are the folks who maintain Decal looking for an excuse to can it?
I guess we'll never know
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OnceKnownAsAniker
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yay!
decal > turbine!
decal 4tw!
LOL
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Arch_Magi
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Gamemaster1121 posted:
The CoC now states:
"Use of unauthorized third-party software or macros with the Software may be prohibited in the sole discretion of Turbine. Specifically, you may not use third-party software which allows your character to gain experience points or items without being at the keyboard, ready to respond to Turbine staff on demand (this activity is commonly called an “Unattended Macroâ€). Logging off as soon as an admin appears (visible or invisible) or when an admin tries to speak with you will be taken into consideration in determining the use of Unattended Macros."
So yes, technically, buff bots and crafting macros are now considered unattended macros though trade bots are not.
Correct, because Trade Bots do not gain any experience (maybe you could stretch it if they cast a Strenght buff, but I never bother doing that or even use mana stones on my trade bots).
If they go after my Buff Bot at the Mansion, and/or if Decal is dead, I am walking away from AC.
I don't want to pressure you G, but please make up your mind ... I am deliberately holding off installing AC:ToD because of this.
Ibn_Turbine posted:
I just spoke to our project manager and our folks in legal. We confirmed that the change to the Code of Conduct was NOT intentional. Essentially it was a typo -- no one on the dev team or customer service saw it because the folks who wrote the new version didn't realize it was a change.
We'll be propping a new version of the Code of Conduct within a day or two that puts back the old language.
As I said, no one on the dev team or customer service had made any changes to our policies regarding UCM and third-party apps. I just needed to check with legal to find out why the wording had been changed -- as it turns out, they hadn't made any intentional change either.
Many apologies for the confusion. However I must point out that this could've been resolved with a lot less grief if the entire discussion had been handled more calmly.
Kewl, thanks, I'd really have to give up my "Asheron's Crack" (and 19 accounts) over this.
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Yula_the_Mighty
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_boneyard_ posted:
and ibn posted that here over an hour ago yula
This thread has been growing so quickly. People are having so much fun. A repeat after an hour is not a bad thing. Besides even the bunny is having fun hopping back and forth.
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azraelthelost
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ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA? ETA?
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Arch_Magi
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"MOD edit- Please read page 5 before posting!!! IBN has posted that the CoC was NOT supposed to change and will be changed back!!"
IMO, this changes NOTHING.
I'm pretty sure that G is waiting for it to officially to change before he makes a statement that further Decal Development is going to happen.
IMO, that makes further discussion very relavent. I for one won't play AC if there is no Decal, and a good portion of the plugins. From the look of the other 5 pages, others feel the same way.
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ryu_masamune
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Let's clear a thing or two up here -
1) This is in no possible way blackmail or coersion except in the lucid imaginations of those that don't possess even a basic understanding of commerce. Gouru, like the rest of the Decal Devs and players PAY a monthly service charge to play AC. When the stipulations or restrictions of what you can and cannot do with that service are changed or become unagreeable to the customers, they have FULL right and authority to voice their displeasure, demand change in said stipulations and/or fire the service. The fact that Gouru and other Decal Devs have contributed their time and resources to make the service an even better value with no compensation coming to them does not change this fact. That leads us to the second thing....
2) Turbine cannot just walk in and 'take' Decal. They cannot just assume ownership of it. For one thing, it's Freeware and Open Source - if they took in a version of that open source and then banned all other instances, that would be grossly illegal unless they offered licsensure buyout from every dev that's ever been involved with the Decal project. While they can selectively and arbitrarily ban and 3rd party add-in they see fit, the legal fallout from taking an open source and making it proprietary technology would be a wide open class action lawsuit that would cost in the tens of millions (see AIX+Linux or SunSolaris v Microsoft).
What Turbine CAN do is ban Decal or TPA's like Decal. The return from such a decision, as they are no doubt aware, would be a drastic and immediate exodus of their subscriber base.
Aside from this - there's no good reason for Turbine to 'want' to take Decal away from the free labor that's developed it. Decal has added features and functionality to the game that has saved what is probably a very large chunk of time and money from Turbine. Moreover, these customizable enhancements to the game is strictly what has retained a large portion of their player base.
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HalfShaft
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Over the years, Decal has made this game. Without it, it would have died years ago.
Due to all this crap over the CoC, I think it would be a nice guesture, on Turbines end, to lend a hand with getting decal back up and running.
Our Decal Devs are awsome and everyone should give them a round of applause!!
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flawed3
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hehe I know it'll never happen but I think it'd be nice if Turbine mailed all the Decal Dev's plane tickets and flew them all to Turbine HQ and AC Devs and Decal Devs worked side by side in house with full access to all utilities, code lists with memlocs and other AC devs who have worked so long on it practically know it by heart. That would pwn =P But like I said, not gonna happen. :/
I'll say one thing though, if it did happen, IBN I hope your reading, myself and no doubt all decal users would be in renewed Awe at the sense that Turbine is going out of their way, clearly above and beyond the call of duty, to do whatever it takes to please the community and be there for its customers. I know they still are right now, but this would be like a big neon sign where there are none. A warm mushy feeling =P
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Danilo_Thann
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I would suggest that Turbine hire the core Decal team but I suspect they could not afford them.
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Broken_Bow_HG
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LMAO
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Vamp-Man
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"I just spoke to our project manager and our folks in legal. We confirmed that the change to the Code of Conduct was NOT intentional. Essentially it was a typo -- no one on the dev team or customer service saw it because the folks who wrote the new version didn't realize it was a change."
OMFG what a load of old crock.
"Many apologies for the confusion. However I must point out that this could've been resolved with a lot less grief if the entire discussion had been handled more calmly."
Let's not forget it would never have happened if you employed typists who could spell.
How do you type an entire document & claim it was a typo?
turbine will never change.
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Arch_Magi
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http://vnboards.ign.com/Harvestgain/b5154/89522227/
Poll Question: If Gouru cancelled the Decal project ...
Total Votes: 35
Current Poll Results:
60% I'd quit AC for good. (21 votes)
14% I'd keep playing, but be looking for another game. (5 votes)
17% I'd jump for joy and keep playing. (6 votes)
0% I'd do a backflip and buy another account. (0 votes)
8% Take a bow -Gol- (3 votes)
(For those who don't know about Harvestgain polls, the "Gol option" is the same as "Who cares?")
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Furay_the_Less
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"Over the years, Decal has made this game. Without it, it would have died years ago."
I'm not so sure. First of all, Decal has not MADE this game. It made it better. Secondly, I'm not sure it would have died without Decal. Imagine for a minute if there had never been a Decal...at all. The player base would not know what a buff bot was, they would have continued to buff themselves never knowing an auto-buff program (and singing the praises of shorter buffing times and longer buffing durations), they would have continued to buy/sell/trade in the subway or old Arwic as we did back in the day, they would have continued to manually search all the loot items at each kill, etc., etc. Had we NEVER known the shortcuts made possible by Decal, most of us would have continued to play. Some people, maybe not as long, I don't know. But you don't know what you're missing if you've never seen it.
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Arch_Magi
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True, and if we never made the nuclear bomb, we wouldn't of had the "Cold War", but we did, and once you do something, you can't "Put the Genie back in the bottle."
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-Faile-Bashere-
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I swear.. the forever ignorance of thinking that there were no bots or macros before Decal amazes me to this day. How many non-Decal macros should have been published for this myth to go away? 
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pokerup2001
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I know that Decal is a major issue in game to the players.
One thing that MT_GOURU is right on the money is that the wording from turbine is very much a change.
To think that any change was made to the CoC with out any one looking at it or have any input into what was being written is just pure poppy-cock.
With the amount of comments that turbine got from the preview that so many people would play with out there decal. Has certainly blind sided them from the real reason why AC lives.
Yes people play with out decal. Most do not. That is on all servers. Decal and the likes of programs that help out players in AC have allowed AC to live longer then it probably would have.
If you remember that the Preview was being listed by turbine as something other then a Beta test. Well a fair amount of us new that was not true and with some amount of compalints to Turbine they admitted they where doing a little spin-Doctoring of the wording and Ibn posted that preview=beta eventually.
As many of you who have read all of this post and have been paying attention to what is going on with decal on all the forums. You will have noticed that indeed there has been a change in there opinion of the viability of there game with out decal.
This was a pre emptive strike on there part to officially kill Decal to beleive anythign else is being a bit naive. The CoC could not hvae been changed with out someone from the developers and the managment staff of turbine aurhorizing it to start off with.
The change in the wording did indeed leave to the opinion of the person reading it or envoy reading it to decide what it is they where goign to do to inforce it or not inforce it. More likely it was a plan in motion to start banning or warning sometime in the future. With a statment that this change in the CoC was there since you installed Ac ToD.
As most people would not have read it as they installed it they would have been able to actually decide to ban you at anytime they chose too.
I do belive that Decal is the most important part to this game and i know that myself included will not play Ac with out a form of decal in game in the future.
You really must be caustious when decyphering what anyone from Turbine says as in most cases. They have never been up front with anythign they have done unless something forced them too.
This post has shown that some attention is being made.
If the negative responses did not appear in this post to start off with you more likely never have seen any comments from Ibn on rewording of what he belives the phrases have ment.
In case you havent noticed Turbine has never supported Decal in any form what so ever.
They have allowed it to live as it was a means to let there game live. Times are changing and not for the betterment of AC. For some reason or another they will not commit to admitting that Decal makes AC work for the majority in some fashion or another.
I think MT_GOURU did the right thing in being up front with all the players in telling you he was going to stop work on Decal till more detailed and properly worded statments from Turbine came forth.
I support all of the decal devs in there development in help with AC from day one. I think they have added more postivie influence in the game then anything. If they choose to be caustious or stop working on decal and move on to some other game i support them for that choice and thank tthem for years of fun. Turbine on the other hand has made some really poor judgment calls in the past this last snafu just shows that they really do never learn.
Ac lives because of its player base not because of the poor choices they make.Take away wthe player base i dont care how much money they have AC will die and i do belive that it is well on its way after the Launch of AC ToD.
Near all of this is my opinion and is not intended to flame or insite anyone. But seeing so many people have complained about the loss of decal or the fact it was dying something needed to be said from a non developer and from a player who sees the reasons why he plays the game.
I play the game to have fun though making supplies can be fun for the most part it is very time consuming. Id rather get on with playing the game then making stuff to do exactly that. I like to trade i also like to loot monsters with 50 monsters lying on the ground at my feet i can not loot them all before they decay. Nor can i ID the items in them in that time to decide if anything at all is worth picking up. I also can not remmeber where 500 plus dungeons are that i dont frequent enough nor can i figure out the best route a place i have never been or have not gone in a long time. Anyone that has hunted with me knows that i have a good idea where alot of things are but i dont know them all. I also cant see whats at the far reaches of my radar nor can i identify a plant chest or any other item on the ground near me if im not standing on top of it. True i can do all of these things by hand but then i have to decide whats more important just hunting for a few XP a hour or having fun looting and locating stuff.
Well enough from me and i know ill get flamed for one reason or another as most people who post on these type topics if they disagree with anyone other then the poster usually gets flamed by someone. I do not support Turbine for many of there choices in a game that i help pay for. Without player money not servers. How many people with multiple accunts will now cancel due to poor choices by Turbines.
The loss of player base has already begun.
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MonsterMadness
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Indeed Arch as u stated it is out there ppl use it and ppl love it do not take something away from the players that they use daily. Decal is not just a macro it is a tool that is made for AC to make our game time more enjoyable.
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Danilo_Thann
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Pokerup2001,
Well said. However, better spacing will make your thoughts much more clear.
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MonsterMadness
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Dang critics always got to find something wrong with a post ROFL
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Krackcode
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Why not let decal die, if even just for a little while. I'm quite sure after a few mere months, Turbine will be banging on Gouru's door, begging him to bring it back.
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Aisir
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Over the years, Decal has made this game. Without it, it would have died years ago.
Due to all this crap over the CoC, I think it would be a nice guesture, on Turbines end, to lend a hand with getting decal back up and running.
Our Decal Devs are awsome and everyone should give them a round of applause!!
I hate idiots like you....Idiot...Decal has never made this game. It is Decal who has killed AC and no it would not have died years ago.
I hope they ban Decal so idiots like you will quit.
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MonsterMadness
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I think it is dead he has never said he was going to continue to get it working he let the issue die a long way back in this thread.
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Sherri2002
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Aisir check this link out and see how many think that way
This is only from one server
http://vnboards.ign.com/Harvestgain/b5154/89522227/?18
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MonsterMadness
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Aisir get a life!! You may not like Decal but others do and no one is twisting your arm to use it so why in the hell you want to bash players that do. Get off your high and mighty pedestool and shut the hell up !!
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Dark_Schneidr
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yea, seriously Aisir. Go play on your little server board, and stop posting here if you don't like decal.
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Aisir
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Decal is now dead
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Anybody who feels like leaving Dereth because of possibility Decal might not be supported, they should feel free to do so. Absolutely! Key word here is "possibility". Any fanatics are free to pack their stuff and move on. Decal has NOT made the game better. Subscription statistics over the past five years make that obvious. Remember the consequences of SplitPea? If the idea of your system playing the game for you makes you giddy with happiness, then maybe AC is dead already. But then again, maybe I'm wasting my time here considering names of AC characters nowadays go something like: "Assmuncher the Powerful", "SPeeDY teH CrackHead", "RockOutWithaGlockOut", or "kjhKLJNIOui". You think I am joking? These are actual AC character names. I mean, I am not a Fantasy Role-Playing zealot, but cmon?!
If this is the mentality of average AC player nowadays, then AC is dead anyhow. Well it has been for a while now. Turbine is just squeezing out any greenbacks they can out of this project before they shut it down, and hordes of immature and illiterate teenagers move on onto some other realm where they can roam freely.
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darkside_ac
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You all can always just release decal and let people do what they want ...
Just add a disclaimer when decal is run that running any kind of unattended macro could result in a ban from turbine .. and include the snipplet ...
Further more you could also even add authorization server much like ELTank ... so that you guys can disable the functionality of decal whenever you want ..
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flawed3
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damn double post, sry bout that
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flawed3
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Anybody who feels like leaving Dereth because of possibility Decal might not be supported, they should feel free to do so. Absolutely! Key word here is "possibility". Any fanatics are free to pack their stuff and move on. Decal has NOT made the game better. Subscription statistics over the past five years make that obvious. Remember the consequences of SplitPea? If the idea of your system playing the game for you makes you giddy with happiness, then maybe AC is dead already. But then again, maybe I'm wasting my time here considering names of AC characters nowadays go something like: "Assmuncher the Powerful", "SPeeDY teH CrackHead", "RockOutWithaGlockOut", or "kjhKLJNIOui". You think I am joking? These are actual AC character names. I mean, I am not a Fantasy Role-Playing zealot, but cmon?!
If this is the mentality of average AC player nowadays, then AC is dead anyhow. Well it has been for a while now. Turbine is just squeezing out any greenbacks they can out of this project before they shut it down, and hordes of immature and illiterate teenagers move on onto some other realm where they can roam freely.
This is the original version Aisir, here, let me do some proof reading for you so you can repost what you SHOULD have said.
Anybody who feels like leaving Dereth because of possibility Decal might not be supported, they should feel free to do so and I'll be leaving because so many people like Decal. Absolutely! Key word here is "possibility". Any fanatics are free to pack their stuff and move on and I'll more than likely follow suit. Decal has NOT made the game better for me and me alone and my opinion is only of me because I cant read minds. Subscription statistics over the past five years make that obvious but the only sites that present these statistics admit that they too are only guessing cause Turbine hasnt released any details on statistics so I'm completely pulling these tidbits of bs out of my arse for no reason what so ever. Remember the consequences of SplitPea? If the idea of your system playing the game for you makes you giddy with happiness, then maybe AC is dead already but again thats just my opinion and it applies to no one else in any way shape or form. But then again, maybe I'm wasting my time here considering names of AC characters nowadays go something like: "Aisir", "Aisir II", "Aisir III", or "Pain in the Aisir". I think I am a joke. These are actual AC character names. I mean, I am not a Fantasy Role-Playing zealot, but I am an overly opinionated one who has to get his voice heard on a thread that if I speak on no one will even give a rats arse about what I have to say.
If this is the mentality of average AC player nowadays, then I am way out of my league. Well I have been for a while now. Turbine is just squeezing out any greenbacks they can out of this project before they shut it down, and hordes of my immature and illiterate offspring move on onto some other realm where they can roam freely.
--------End Edit
Your welcome btw, that'll be $5.99
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hobartbouregarde
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This is all retarded. If decal were to die. (and I don't believe it will) Turbine would be in big trouble.
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MonsterMadness
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pwned !!!!!!!!!!!!!
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flawed3
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pwned !!!!!!!!!!!!!
ty =P
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thoreaxe1
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"This is all retarded. If decal were to die. (and I don't believe it will) Turbine would be in big trouble. " Hobartbouregarde
AH Turbine kind of confirmed this!
They changed COC, when Mt_Gouru said decal was basicaly useless as all the plugins whould be in violation of COC, and stated Decal was dead, Turbine (IBN) came back and changed the tune to it was an accident "cough" typo and would be changed back to reflect the old COC in the next day or so.
Why would it no longer be just slight wording change to it was an accident, if they don't see what the demise of decal would be.
It changed because...... if decal goes so does the already dwindeling population.
only aisir and a handful would be left.
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-More-
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ok so what did they mean to change the CoC too? I'm kinda in the dark.
So they made a mistake on wording?
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Fight-VT
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My word that was scary
whew!
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MonsterMadness
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This is the wording they posted for the new CoC.
The CoC now says,
"Use of unauthorized third-party software or macros with the Software may be prohibited in the sole discretion of Turbine. Specifically, you may not use third-party software which allows your character to gain experience points or items without being at the keyboard, ready to respond to Turbine staff on demand (this activity is commonly called an “Unattended Macroâ€). Logging off as soon as an admin appears (visible or invisible) or when an admin tries to speak with you will be taken into consideration in determining the use of Unattended Macros."
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deamadar
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I seen this post on the decal website
Decal and ToD 2005-07-19 by paradox
ToD has finally arrived, and decal is busted. We've made good progress on the memlocs, but we still need to coordinate getting the graphics system upgraded. It's a busy time for most of us, so just be patient, and we'll let you know when it's done.
this was great to watch but looks likeit is still going
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Gdinero_FF
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Aisir posted on 7/19/05 7:33pm
Subscription statistics over the past five years make that obvious.
This is what we like to call flawed logic.
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Tevatron
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"Aisir posted on 7/19/05 7:33pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subscription statistics over the past five years make that obvious.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LOL!
Just thought I should add this.
But the fence was so pleasant!
I think everyone agrees the PR releases for Asheron's Call has been terrible, but there's one line they've used that's particularly pertinent to what we have to say today...
"Asheron's Call is not a static game. . . . The threat changes"
At the moment, I think this has never been more true. The face of AC has changed dramatically from when we all unwrapped our little cardboard boxes two years ago, ready to dive into a realm of magic and live the promises of adventure. And dive in we did - I can safely say I've never played a game so much in my life.
Then, as it must, the magic faded a bit. Some of us left the proverbial garden of Eden, and started to eat from the tree of knowledge - How did the world work? Disparate people, looking at it individually pooled their knowledge, and formed the community that has given rise to so much. Most of us didn't do it because it was "uber" or we wanted to cheat, we did it because it was interesting, and the byproducts could be used to enhance both our gaming experience, and that of others.
Many will argue against it, but for the main, we think what we produced was for the better. As more people joined in, more and more sophisticated tools were created. Decal is probably at the pinnacle - it has the potential to create some of the most game enhancing additions that MMRPG's have seen. However, with that power comes the temptation - the creation of the most game devastating exploits MMRPG's has seen.
Everyone has their own opinions on what a 'cheat' consists of. I myself despise combat macroing, because I feel it detracts from the purpose of the game. It's a massively multiplayer game, where every single persons actions affect everyone else's - We've seen time and time again in any system where people interact, power must be earned. Macroing provides power to precisely the people who do not deserve it - the people who have not worked for it. But this is my opinion, and no one can say whether I'm right or wrong.
There are, however, some areas which we think any sane person will agree are well over the bounds of tools and into the bounds of cheats. The best classification (and sadly, the most ambiguous) is "Anything that adversely affects the game of others". A few examples, to clarify then - Some are currently hypothetical, some sadly are not...
Skim Macros in populated dungeons
PK Tracking/selection/automated killing
Anything designed to damage/crash the server
There are many, many more, and most are not covered by the Code of Conduct. We have no power to enforce a CoC ourselves - The genie is out of the bottle as they say. However, we state our purpose here: to create, by consensus, a set of tools that will allow people to expand their enjoyment of AC without detracting from other people's. Anything that falls outside of this, we cannot condone nor support. But to stop the good things that have come out of these because of the few bad ones would be, in our opinion, a terrible waste.
The fact that we've been working at this for over a year now, and have with some success morally policed ourselves. Everything that was ambiguous was generally discussed to death, and more code has been written than has ever been released. But, with the rise of easy to expand toolsets, the barrier to entry is gone, and we must rely on the morals of everyone to be vigilant in deciding "This is a selfish act" or "This is a helpful act". We'd ask before anyone designs, creates or runs a program that interfaces with something that so many people pour so many hours into (such as AC), they ask themselves "Will this help me at the expense of others". If the answer is yes, put it down and walk away.
adamw
(with editing by Your God)
Original can be found here http://decal.acdev.org/ethics.html
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Aisir
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Exactly! Thanks for proving my point. There is nothing wrong with being an immature and illiterate teenager. Don't get me wrong, somebody needs to work for minimum wage pumping gas, or cleaning up puke on aisle nine. It takes all kinds.
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Danilo_Thann
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I've always like the Decal Code of Ethics.
Good to re-post it.
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KPD157
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The only ones to blame are the plugin makers themselves. I dare anyone who knows how to get access to my plugin VBDemo, to try and Macro Unattended with it
I say this because I have been trying my best to make sure that those who would use my plugin Improperly to the point of even trying to stop Speed hacks, would meet with a Ban or the inability to use the plugin.
So many functions that Decal should be allowed to have access for "good things" can also be used to make a Bot or even worse a Bot that can fight for you while you are away. Its the Plugin developers that must take a stand and stop the insanity.. Decal Developers and Turbine working together and an API would be all great but for the fact that anything they do could be twisted into something that breaks the COC.
I have made a Plugin that to my knowledge cannot be used to break the COC as a Base Plugin. All the Failsafes and other goodies I programmed into it require you to be there behind the Keyboard most of the time. I just don't like doing things repetativly and my plugin is intended to aid not play for you.
Think about that before you ask any more of Turbine or any of the Decal Core Programmers. The Plugin makers have to get ethical and truely make their plugins follow and restrict players to playing within the rules
Food for thought
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accrazy
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I dare anyone who knows how to get access to my plugin VBDemo, to try and Macro Unattended with it
I, and alot of others would surely take you up on this challenge if we had access
But on a lighter note, I would love to try your plugin out...it sounds interesting, and I love plugins that help you to use less keystrokes.
I do not *CM, but live and let live I say!
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PizzBoy
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ok Aisir, I think everyone is entitled to their point of view but dont you dare suggest that because I use decal I am a certain age or type of person.
I am 34 yrs old a self-employeed contractor/builder I build multimillion dollar homes and I wont be reduced to a pimple faced teen who works at Mc Donalds (in my teens I have worked crappy jobs like this and feel your pain kids) you want to be high and mighty but yet you autmatically assume everyone who uses Decal or its plugins is a certain type or certain age, you spout out stupidity like Old Faithful. Please stop you are showing you inability to "think" instead of simply react.
I dont ucm, nor have I EVER ucm'd, I turn in everyone that I find that I suspect ucm'ing, I raerly even acm, I use roughly 25 - 30 plugins for various things, I CAN play without decal and plugins but to be honest the game is dull to me after playing since beta without decal and its plugins, it enhances the game. You are sadly mistaken on the amount of people that would stop playing this game without decal or 3rd party apps, in my clan alone 60% said in a poll I conducted that they would quit without decal. Now 60% of 1200+ people isnt alot, but 60% of a total servers population will sink your beloved decal free game.
Stop hating, shut up and play the game the way you wish to play it and dont tell me how I have to play it because you dont like the way I play. I personally HATE pk/pkl and everything that has to do with it but I dont tell people they cant or shouldnt pk.
Grow up, stop your whining and get on with the game.
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SweetMaryForever
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lmao
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Da_Cecile
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was wondering when u would post ,)
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Furay_the_Less
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When I made the point along the lines of "what if there had never been Decal...", Faile took me to task by stating that there were plenty of non-Decal macros. OK, whatever. My main point was that if we'd never had Decal (or anything like it, let me add now), we'd never know what we'd been missing. Thus, making a statement like the game would have died a long time ago without Decal is unsupported.
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SweetMaryForever
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This thread shows how pathetic half the AC community is. OMG what is my computer going to do for entertainment now!!!???
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flawed3
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lol we may be pathetic but so are forum trolls so put on a members jacket punk, your one of us now =P
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accrazy
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SMF says "half the AC community" ...that HALF being you and your 1 or 2 fanatical loonies?
LMAO
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Benny_Mulligan
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And they are only half as pathetic as Sweet Mary.
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Da_Cecile
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ROFL mary , btw my pc got a lot of things to do for his entertainment and yours too ( scanning to find some new fresh proxy take sometimes wink wink) .
oh and i think a LOT more than half the ac community could get a heart attack about decal dieing .
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JonnJack
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I was WONDERING how long it'd take pathetic Mary to show up....
She disappointed me, took MUCH longer than normal. She must be slipping.
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SweetMaryForever
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You have no idea how long I have waited to see a thread entitled “Decal is Dead†and actually having even a slight chance of being real.
The real meaning of such a title is that the days of pathetic selfish cheaters overrunning AC and spreading their virus are gone.
And yes I realize this thread’s title is too good to be true. But it may be interesting to see where it takes us.
I think what might really be happening here is that one or more of the Decal Devs see the chore of updating Decal as too much, and that they felt relieved to see a reason to use for not doing it. This makes me smile.
The Decal Devs should not update Decal and give the right reason… that they are not updating it because they let the cat of the bag and destroyed AC, and they have decided to do the right thing.
But whatever they say, I thank them in advance for not updating Decal.
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accrazy
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lol...bye Mary
(you are gone this time right?)
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SweetMaryForever
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Pffft Cecile, I had my new proxy in 30 seconds. I took my time getting here because I was too busy enjoying the bliss of an absolutely bot-free Dereth. My father is even considering coming out into the sunshine.
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Kazpr
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Mary you would quit very shortly if there were no macroers. You would be so bored in the matter of days.
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venture50
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I'm wondering where Decal stands as well.
Sadly, Turbine allowed this to happen. If they released the expansion with an API that can be hooked into, there would no longer be an outcy over the Decal Devs giving up. But Turbine relied on Decal, so did not make an easy to use API.
On the plus side, i think if Decal is dead, there will be an official plugin program within a few months, or most of the plugins will be incorperated into AC.
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Drakier
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=================================
"I think what might really be happening here is that one or more of the Decal Devs see the chore of updating Decal as too much, and that they felt relieved to see a reason to use for not doing it. This makes me smile.
The Decal Devs should not update Decal and give the right reason… that they are not updating it because they let the cat of the bag and destroyed AC, and they have decided to do the right thing.
But whatever they say, I thank them in advance for not updating Decal."
=================================
Don't get your hopes up there Mary... You're seeing a post by a singular Decal Dev. There is definately more to the Decal Dev team that Gouru, although Gouru is a very large part of it (no pun intended).
If for some reason, we as a team feel the need to do so, then we will, but until then, options have to be discussed.. Gouru has a valid point which has been addressed by Ibn. With that being said, we haven't stopped working on getting Decal updated... Even WITH this thread. This thread was mainly for clarification of the issue, which I believe served its purpose.
So go back to dream-land and get in your decal-free time while you can, because as soon as we can, we're going to get this back up and going.
and for the sake of all that's right and holy, PLEASE stop using phrases like "let the cat out of the bag" or "let the genie out of the bottle"... ENOUGH with it! It's a cliche! It's over used. There was no cat, bag, or genie. Just AC and Decal. Even if for some reason WE didn't update Decal, how long do you think it would be before someone else did?
Think about it!
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SweetMaryForever
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Ok instead of saying you let the cat out of the bag, let me be blunt.
YOU ENABLED DIRT BAGS LIKE ELGAR TO RUIN AC.
Go ahead and keep supporting them if you like. I am really very far from giving a crap and I say that due to Turbine’s mismanagement.
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Da_Cecile
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"On the plus side, i think if Decal is dead, there will be an official plugin program within a few months"
i and turbine both think that ac doesnt have a few month to live if decal is dead and the FIRST result of this topic is turbine understanding that they depend from 3rd party apps and that they dont have any control on that .
So i bet the Api of turbine is now their 1 focus goal .
so the turbine api should come very soon , now will ac still live by that time is another story .
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ElgarL
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(^ SM) Says the ban evading, rule breaking cheater.
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SweetMaryForever
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Shut up daft brother
(yes Elgar is my brother. He said so himself here… http://www.freewebtown.com/hot/AsheronsTwins.htm )
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Da_Cecile
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link is already no more btw
like your post will be deleted so soon i guess
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Gdinero_FF
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Drakier posted on 7/19/05 11:18pm
and for the sake of all that's right and holy, PLEASE stop using phrases like "let the cat out of the bag" or "let the genie out of the bottle"... ENOUGH with it! It's a cliche! It's over used. There was no cat, bag, or genie. Just AC and Decal.
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JonnJack
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For someone that's SO uptight about rules, etc., Mary doesn't seem to have ANYproblems evading bans here to try and get her posts. Talk about a hyprocrit....
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SweetMaryForever
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For someone that's SO uptight about rules, etc., Mary doesn't seem to have ANYproblems evading bans here to try and get her posts.
That’s correct, and it because a) Decal is not a rules issue for me, it’s a cheating issue, and b) the mods and management of the VN is corrupt and largely to blame for the spreading of the macro virus.
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The_Korrigan
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The only real problem I see coming out from this thread is that a game I pay Turbine for to play in reality depends of some third party plugin system to survive, and I would seriously suggest to IBN and Turbine to think about it.
I still think that this "official" plugin system that was initially planned for AC:TD should have been finished and included into AC1.
I don't think that a company's product being more or less controlled by a third party is a good thing at the end, and I hope for a quick reaction of the AC1 devs before it is too late.
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Kazpr
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Mary herself used to own/run a buffbot @ her mansion. If I remember right it was a bought acct also.
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SweetMaryForever
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Korrigan, how about they simply let Decal die and quit catering to cheaters?
"If I remember right it was a bought acct also"
Wrong. The lies of macroers.
Yes I ran a buff bot a few months (account given to the guild by Buttons The Clown). I also used Decal for self buffing. I used to be against just combat macroing but eventually realized that Decal is the root cause. We need black and white, not gray. Accepting ANY third party app is gray.
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harvard_of_FF
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"Ok instead of saying you let the cat out of the bag, let me be blunt.
YOU ENABLED DIRT BAGS LIKE ELGAR TO RUIN AC.
Go ahead and keep supporting them if you like. I am really very far from giving a crap and I say that due to Turbine’s mismanagement."
I guess you don't realize that there was macro'ing before decal. Decal was created for the other helpful utilities, and other people created the macro's.
The macro's before were faster than Tank, just more difficult to setup.
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SweetMaryForever
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I am well aware of the history of dirt bag macroers. You are also well aware of the fact that Elgar made them commonplace.
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accrazy
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Well this post has been fun...but someone had to come and ruin it with her "I will get the last word no matter how dumb it makes me look" attitude
You must be a real peach IRL Mary 
And be careful Korrigan and keep an open mind, you are being pulled into Mary's tractor beam ....mmmmmmmmmmmmm  not all of us are pro-*CM, but HALF (according to Mary) of us DO ENJOY the extra benefits that decal provides!!!
Ciao!
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The_Korrigan
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I better repeat, once again, that I enjoy the extra benefits of Decal too, before people make too many assumptions about me ... I used "BS/2", the excellent "The Stoic" for buffing, "UST", "Quest Timers" and a few others.
I also don't mind playing AC1 without any plugin, I'm not dependant on Decal, but I really appreciate the confort it brings when it is available.
While I dislike people who have their computer play the game for them, I have nothing against Decal.
Reread my previous post carefully and you will understand what my real concerns with the problem debated in this thread are.
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Onyx_Fyre
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"Decal is not a rules issue for me, it’s a cheating issue"
How is it cheating if it is equaly available to all players? Cheating would imply that someone would have an unfair advantage. We are all privy to all the same utilities and are all welcome to develop our own utilities/plugins to decal so please enlighten me on how it is "cheating".
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Zarry
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tag to see where this goes ..
an i just install my ToD keys ..maybe i should of waited 
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JonnJack
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Especially now as the Turbine Devs are supporting Decal, and have stated that they have no intention of 'breaking' the game to the point where Decal can not be used.
If the Turbine Devs are supporting Decal, what kind of support does that leave Mary and her ilk?
Sounds like sour grapes to me, and even worse, purposely pursuing a known lost cause, which is NOT mentally healthy, as any educated person could tell you.
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The_Korrigan
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JonnJack posted on 7/20/05 12:44am
Especially now as the Turbine Devs are supporting Decal ...
Huh ?
http://forums.turbinegames.com/showthread.php?t=23793
From Ibn, AC1 Online Community Relations
I just wanted to direct your attention to a recent news post made on the Decal dev home page by Paradox:
"ToD has finally arrived, and decal is busted. We've made good progress on the memlocs, but we still need to coordinate getting the graphics system upgraded. It's a busy time for most of us, so just be patient, and we'll let you know when it's done."
http://decal.acdev.org
While Decal is not supported by Turbine, we understand that this is a topic that many of our players are curious about.
No, Turbine still does not "support" Decal.
And after this thread here, I start to seriously wish they would, or that they would finally add the official plugin system that was planned.
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Gamemaster1121
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1) Cheating IS by definition the breaking of rules. Decal is permitted by turbine, therefore it is not cheating.
2) Evading bans is a violation of the boards TOS which you agreed to. This could, if the owners' of VN so desired, be pursued legally as you violated a contract to which you agreed.
3) Personaly attacks are a violation of the boards TOS which you agreed to. This could, if the owners' of VN so desired, be pursued legally as you violated a contract to which you agreed.
4) Decal will come back.
5) Have you been disowned yet?
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accrazy
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I reread your post(s) Korrigan, and I stand by what I said...
You sound intelligent enough to understand that a small percentage of the population is going to get away with what they can, (and most of us know who they are) and I have run into a few of them myself, but what is the point of getting yourself worked up over it? If it bothers you...report them! I don't...life is too short man...
I have several fav hunting spots...and if someone is in one of my favorite spots, macroing or not, I go to another spot....Dereth is a sizeable world! (but then again xp is not what matters to me, 5 years and my highest lvl is 124 TYVM)...That may be different to you...and I respect that..I could care less what ANYONE else does with thier $12.95/month.
All 3 of Marys rabid followers AND her supposedly, were once Decal users themselves... but once they started to believe the propaganda that she was spouting they became puritans like her...and nothing anyone could say would change their minds. Reminds me of what happened in 1938, 1991, 2001,....you get the picture....but this is not real life...it's a freakin game!
If the UCM'rs want to take to risk of being banned, (and it does happen!), then let them...don't compromise and depress the decal devs. Decal in and of itself does not promote UCM, UCM is built upon the Decal interface...removing the War aspect of Decal may solve the problem, but there is always going to be someone to figure out how to get around it... Welcome to the 21st century!
I respect your feelings, as I hope you do mine, but there is plenty of gameage for all of us and I hope to fellow with you in the future and kick some major arse....with BS2,NB2, and all our other favorite DECAL plugins!!!!!!
Ciao!
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The_Korrigan
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I'm in no way responsible of what sweet mary posts here, and I have no intend of supporting her in any way.
My major concern with this thread is not macroing, cheating, or whatever else of this kind.
I discussed the war aspect of Decal in another thread, please stop mixing everything up.
Let me try to explain why I'm worried by this thread once again :
What worried me is the fact that if Decal, something that is not officially supported and is made by third party programmers which are not paid nor have any relations with Turbine, happens to end, it will most certainly mean the end of AC1 too. I therefore hope for a quick reaction from Turbine to make some kind of official plugin interface. I don't think it's healthy when a company's product totally depends on a third party product to survive. Imagine if some real life event makes it that tomorrow, all the Decal devs are forced to stop working on it, and Decal disapears ? That would certainly accelerate the end of AC1. And that is what I am worried about.
Hope I managed to explain my concern in an understandable way now, even my bad english.
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ApolloAce
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For definition purposes.
A member of SM's monarchy purchased his account from another player who had used macro's to level it (He was not a member before he purchased the account).
This person claimed that they were not aware that it was against the rules (to purchase an account)and that he did not in fact macro.
Mary stated she believed him and that as long as he didn't break her monarchy rules he could stay.
And yes, I am and have been watching this thread with some interest. 
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Shaolin_TD.
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Kill decal, i want to see AC close up shop, even if it's to make ibn and others jobless. AC deserves to die under it's current crop of devs.
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SanguisSparta
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Just to clarify on a few things, especially for mary
1) Elgarl was not the first to make acm/ucm functionality into a plugin, there were tons of private plugins around looooooong before he tossed that into tank, not to mention a few that leaked but not to the point that everyone used them
2) Mary, admit it, you used decal but then realised after becoming an icon of anti-macro zealotry that you had to quit that all together before people fingered you as being the rediculous hypocrit that you are.
3) Macros, and more specifically ucm/acm were around way before decal made it popular, I remember writing more than 1 combat macro before they were illegal in 1999 with tool and later skunkworks.
4) 3rd party apps have been around as long as ac has essentially, once tool came out, people made scripts to do just about anything, including running around and picking up plants as well as making applesauce for money (I created my own and modified quite a few variations of both as well).
5) Macros, by definition are actually anything that allows any other task or group of tasks to be completed by a single action. So essentially you're wrong when you say macros are the devil, it's macros which allow you to attack autonomously that are "the devil" in you opinion (another poster clarified this earlier as well but it seemed to be ignored so ill do it again).
6)Mary, please just give up, it's pretty obvious that most people think you're a zealot who takes things to far, and in fact is more of a grievance to the game itself than the dozens of characters holes away in dungeons that nobody ever finds.
For the record, I used to be a huge supporter of macroing, when it was legal, the day they said you could be banned for it, I gave up on it. It was a passion mainly for scripting in ACtool (i'm a programmer, go figure) that a lot of us tended to follow. At first it had nothing to do with the greed of leveling or wealth in game, it was merely to try and use the tools we had to make the best possible automation just for the sake of doing it (I know I even worked on mine calculating avg kills per hour, hourly xp, xp per kill and xp per minute at one point and even included auto chat responses and coords options in the last version of my bot before it was banned, some of you might remember the script as 3M or Mortus' Melee Macro). In any case, eventually it WAS turned to greed and some people developed it for their own means (i'm mainly referring to the private plugins here), eventually Elgarl released tank which brought the functionality to the public. But I think it's pretty safe to say that irregardless of how much you'd like to demonize him, he's really not that much of a factor, sure the man brought it to the public, but if he hadn't someone else would have, I assure you that much. And not to disrespect you at all Elgarl, I do think tank is a pretty good plugin and i'm sure it would be hailed as the holy grail of decal had it not incorperated acm/ucm functionality, but irregardless of that it's still a damn good piece of work, programming wise.
Anyways, i've had my little rant so i'll finish it off by saying that of all people here, the person who least deserves to be trashed is Gouru. I've known the man personally and was in his guild for quite awhile on MT and I can say that he is an excellent guy and player in game and what he does is very much appreciated, as with everything the decal devs do. Anyone who has the slightest notion of bashing the decal devs should think twice because they've put more hours of work into something for literally nothing but the trill of doing so than I bet some of you have spent actually playing the game. With that said, give them the respect they deserve and hold your tongue before making any brash statements.
Also, I'd atleast hope that if you no longer wished to work on decal, gouru and crew (lol) that you would release decal and the source to the public as i'm sure there are others who would take up the task.
Edit: Korrigan also makes an excellent point, the in-game api needs to be looked at again at some point, if not for ac, then maybe for ac3
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KPD157
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In order for Decal to survive a long time there needs to be some solid link between AC and the Plugins that is supported by Turbine.
I have always wanted the API to come out but I know that alot of those who break the rules and use Illegal plugins that break the COC don't want the API because it could easily be turned against them.
I don't know where SM comes from anymore havn't for a while but treating anyone in as a dispicable way as they Treat you makes you no more better
Decal will be down for a while and I have no problem playing without it. (I miss Dual client though) I would suggest supporting Turbine in the API if its at all possible because that is the only way we are going to Keep Decal Around for sure
Few words from a Concerned Player
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ParaKaZi
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I got banned for a year for portal spamming 
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azraelthelost
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QUOTE: Over the years, Decal has made this game. Without it, it would have died years ago.
Its quite probable that Decal is what drove the playerbase away from this game, and stoped it from growing further.
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Prodigus
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Quite the opposite, AC has a lot of tasks that are very repetitive. DEcal progs make it possible to do those things without killing your body..
Other games have come out that don't make things so repetitive AND don't require any external progs to do them.. (such as the built in trade bots in DAOC).. The other games have MUCH better graphics due to being newer etc.. People leave for other games.
Sure, a few Holier than though individuals have left because they didn't like people doig this or that but that's not what has killed off the player base..
I can tell you that I had to take at least 2 years off from this game because I ended up with a repetitive stress injury in my shoulder from all of the repition in the early dyas before decal and the plug-ins came out.. Without Decal I CAN'T play...
People just need to learn to chill out and stop LOOKING for something to cry foul about. MOst of the people who cry about Decal plug-ins probably use some themselves but as long as the plugin suits them it's fine. It's just not fine when it suits someone else and NOT them.
Decal didn't make this game.. DECAL MADE IT BETTER!!!
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Arch_Magi
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SweetMaryForever posted:
Korrigan, how about they simply let Decal die and quit catering to cheaters?
"If I remember right it was a bought acct also"
Wrong. The lies of macroers.
Yes I ran a buff bot a few months (account given to the guild by Buttons The Clown). I also used Decal for self buffing. I used to be against just combat macroing but eventually realized that Decal is the root cause. We need black and white, not gray. Accepting ANY third party app is gray.
An anti-macroer who ran a buff bot, which was owned by someone else (a violation of the CoC), evades a board ban and calls people "dirt bags", etc.
Oh god, that is just too funny.
You know, I could almost respect you SM as a "purist", but you're just another two-faced hypocrite.
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Kazpr
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Magi she says not but I am pretty sure that was a eBay acct also
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Arch_Magi
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Update on Last nights Harvestgain Poll:
Poll Question: If Gouru cancelled the Decal project ...
Total Votes: 126
Current Poll Results:
69% I'd quit AC for good. (87 votes)
10% I'd keep playing, but be looking for another game. (13 votes)
14% I'd jump for joy and keep playing. (18 votes)
0% I'd do a backflip and buy another account. (1 votes)
5% Take a bow -Gol- (7 votes)
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Kyuzo.
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I don't understand what prompted Gouru to make this post in the first place.
From the decal code of ethics...
"Everyone has their own opinions on what a 'cheat' consists of. I myself despise combat macroing, because I feel it detracts from the purpose of the game. It's a massively multiplayer game, where every single persons actions affect everyone else's - We've seen time and time again in any system where people interact, power must be earned. Macroing provides power to precisely the people who do not deserve it - the people who have not worked for it. But this is my opinion, and no one can say whether I'm right or wrong.
There are, however, some areas which we think any sane person will agree are well over the bounds of tools and into the bounds of cheats. The best classification (and sadly, the most ambiguous) is "Anything that adversely affects the game of others". A few examples, to clarify then - Some are currently hypothetical, some sadly are not...
Skim Macros in populated dungeons
PK Tracking/selection/automated killing
Anything designed to damage/crash the server
There are many, many more, and most are not covered by the Code of Conduct. We have no power to enforce a CoC ourselves - The genie is out of the bottle as they say. However, we state our purpose here: to create, by consensus, a set of tools that will allow people to expand their enjoyment of AC without detracting from other people's. Anything that falls outside of this, we cannot condone nor support. But to stop the good things that have come out of these because of the few bad ones would be, in our opinion, a terrible waste."
Given the above attitude, I don't see how a change in the CoC like what was (apparently unintentionally) put in for ToD should have any bearing on decal development. The decal devs specifically state they have no intention or ability to police the CoC. Up until a few days ago, there were already plugins which allowed people to violate the CoC. If the CoC were expanded to include things like Buffbots and Tradebots, sure that would suck but it doesn't invalidate the numerous other useful plugins available (as others have already mentioned). The list of what you could due with existing plugins while still attending the computer is quite extensive. I will repeat and add my agreement to the last line of my quote from above: "to stop the good things that have come out of these because of the few bad ones would be, in our opinion, a terrible waste"
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Astalon_Decurth
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Gouru, Drakier, Paradox, Hazridi, and others that I have Missed.. I first wanted to Say thank you for all your Hard work and hope to have my Decal Back soon. on that subject can we get a Paypal link like we did last time it was broke hard and everyone that wanted to donated? Hopefully you all had fun at the ACPL with the Donations last time.
I for one would love to donate to the Decal Dev's for thier hard work and time seeing as how alot of them no longer even play and are gracious enough to even think about us.. Thank you. I know you are not required to update Decal but I would hope that you would want to. You have many people out there that Love you and the work that you do. Thank you. AC wouldnt have kept me playing as long as I have without the many Plugin's that I love.
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crowredlover
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just when i started using it 2 months ago ok i think i quit ac now
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Lokkie_the_Fierce
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Do we not have any mods on this board? I can think of several threads on the first page that should be locked, either for degrading into flame wars, or for posting irrelevant information, or being severely outdated
/e rolls eyes
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Majielle
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Was suppose to go PM!
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Majielle
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MT_Gouru posted:
================================
I hope that decal and Eltank live as long as AC itself. They make a great TEAM!
=================================
Boy, if I was undecided before...this post could push me right over the edge.
Fortunately, for me.. I'm not interested in anyone's personal feelings about another person, or program. I'm interested in ENJOYING Asheron's Call. For me, that means DECAL (only way I can use other enhancements) AND ELTANK (thank you ELGAR, I love ya). That's a fact!
If that can push anyone over the edge, WOW.. didn't know I was so powerful!
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The_Korrigan
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Gouru is so gonna love those posts of majielle
Nice edit ! I knew I should have quoted that first post ...
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Majielle
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LOL!! I'm glad you didn't.. that first one was a mistake and was meant to be PM.
And I really don't care what any "one" person thinks of my opinion. It's still my opinion.
oh.. I need coffee!!! 
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The_Korrigan
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You have your opinion, and that is normal. I respect that.
The only big flaw with your logic of "not caring" is that the person disagreeing with your opinion is one of the main developpers of the tools you are waiting for ...
It's a bit like saying to your boss that his opinion sucks and doesn't matter and then asking him if you could get paid a bit more ...
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Mr_Snappy
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Ibn_Turbine posted:
Many apologies for the confusion. However I must point out that this could've been resolved with a lot less grief if the entire discussion had been handled more calmly.
Clearly doesn't understand the player base's passion for the game, how else would you explain people playin it for as long as they have? Get in touch with the fact that people care about this game and don't like seeing it screwed with in the name of progress. It's always been a case of tough love, Turbine says going to give so and so some love and we wait to see how bad the love is.
Not having Decal would throw AC back to the stoneage as far the play we have come to expect and I for one with so many other choices in gaming am not willing to go there.
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Majielle
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The only big flaw with your logic of "not caring" is that the person disagreeing with your opinion is one of the main developpers of the tools you are waiting for ...
It's a bit like saying to your boss that his opinion sucks and doesn't matter and then asking him if you could get paid a bit more ...
Well, the flaw in your logic is this:
1. I stated I don't care "in general" about other people's opinion of "my opinion". I did not say that I don't care about the opinion of any "specific" individual (as you stated it).
2. If my boss's opinion sucks (in my opinion) and if his/her opinion doesn't matter to me, and I am doing the job I'm paid for and doing it exceedingly well, I deserve a raise and shouldn't have to ASK!
3. I'm not a mindless robot. Perhaps I over-stated my opinion regarding what "matters" to me. But, frankly everyone has a right to an opinion, they don't have the right to force or expect others to agree with it. What? am I suppose to bend down and kiss his........
4. Before AT&T broke up, I often disagreed with the opinion of the management as to how they ran the phone company. I told them so. I still used the phone company, heck.. what else was I to do???
Now, could we stop trying to make "my opinion" the issue here? I'm just one drop in the ocean, hardly noticeable!!
Stir the pot much, Korrigan?
Have a great day!!!
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The_Korrigan
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Majielle posted on 7/20/05 7:40am
2. If my boss's opinion sucks (in my opinion) and if his/her opinion doesn't matter to me, and I am doing the job I'm paid for and doing it exceedingly well, I deserve a raise and shouldn't have to ASK!
It's cute that some people still have this kind of illusions about life
This said, don't worry, I won't waste anymore time arguing about opinions and how to express them in a diplomatic way when you need something from the person you disagree with
You have a great day too ! (mine is already almost over).
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Majielle
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Your profile (PMing) is not available!
Hey, I'm at work... doing that job I do exceedingly well.
I didn't get where I am today without knowing how to 'charm' those I disagree with. 
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Nerice
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I dont mind telling my boss when he is wrong about his opinion, and I still get my raises fine... In fact about to get another.
Most of the time the two are not tied together. If they are, then your boss sucks and probably would try to get out of giving you a raise no matter what.
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Drakier
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Nerice:
==============================================
I dont mind telling my boss when he is wrong about his opinion, and I still get my raises fine... In fact about to get another.
Most of the time the two are not tied together. If they are, then your boss sucks and probably would try to get out of giving you a raise no matter what.
==============================================
the difference is, you don't tell your boss that their opinion sucks. You can disagree with someone's opinion and still be civil, diplomatic, and get your own opinion heard without resorting to bashing, namecalling, or otherwise "negative" tactics.
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The_Korrigan
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There is a huge difference between telling someone that he is wrong, and also of course telling him why he is wrong, which is the base of any civilized discussion, and telling someone that his opinion doesn't matter.
But this was really my last post on this subject, I think you all perfectly understood the point I was making with my boss example and I don't feel like feeding the board nitpickers anymore
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MT_Gouru
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A few clarifications...
One...The CoC is being fixed. Maybe there was a way to resolve this with less grief, however the first post on it on Turbine boards was replied to with basically 'There is no problem, life goes on as usual', and the topic was closed preventing further discussion. On Turbine boards, I do NOT reopen topics that are closed.
I believed there was a problem, and posted here to a forum that Ibn didn't control. The post had an alarmist title and explained why the new CoC was bad. It got a large vocal response, which was it's intent.
Decal has a lot of non-macroing uses. Einstein makes a mage playable for me and for that alone, I'd fight hard to keep Decal running.
Two...I have a public face, but the people doing the work on this update are NOT me. Paradox, Greyed, Hazridi and Pea are doing the real work on this update. I monitor, throw in my two cents here and there (something I'm REALLY good at). I quickly figured out that I had a LOT to learn before I was qualified to work on the graphics code.
Three...Donations, about the only time Decal receives donations is when it is NOT working. Makes me wonder what type of behavior people are trying to reward. The last time we had a lot of donations, we used it to set up a hospitality suite for players and Turbine at ACPL. We really don't have a way to fairly distribute donations, so please don't worry about it. You really want to thank Decal Devs? Quit using any plugin with 'Tank' in it's name.
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Drogo007
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Lol ^^^
/me starts the countdown timer until the flames REALLY start
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Nerice
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Uh, I am balsier than most. I have gone against my boss'es wishes when he was right there to see it being done. When he started raising cane, I told him to F off, or fire me. He F'ed off, he knew what I was doing would be acceptable to the people above him, so his opinion meant squat. A few days later he came back saying I had done the right thing (it was do it then, or it was too late to do) and he was wrong.
Way I look at it, is if its screwing over customers, and losing thier bussiness for good, its wrong, and I would rather quit or get fired than stay somewhere that sooner or later is going to lose enough bussiness to go under and I lose my job anyway.
The particular case I am talking about was over $1, it was our mistake, we would had lost $50+ instantly and thier bussiness. That is not worth one single dollar, which was our mistake to begin with.
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The_Korrigan
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MT_Gouru posted on 7/20/05 8:56am
Three...Donations, about the only time Decal receives donations is when it is NOT working. Makes me wonder what type of behavior people are trying to reward.
I know, and I will get flamed to say it ... most people don't care about you devs as long as they get their Decal/tank fix every month. It's only when things don't work that they care about you.
It is human nature, sadly.
MT_Gouru posted on 7/20/05 8:56am
You really want to thank Decal Devs? Quit using any plugin with 'Tank' in it's name.
I'm glad because I've been thanking the Decal devs for many years now, and I will keep on doing it
I will have to have a look at "Einstein" though, I've been playing mages without it relatively efficiently, I wonder what it would add for me.
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MT_Gouru
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Einstein basically handles the selection of element for me, and keeps track of what monsters have already been vulned/imped. As a support mage, being able to select unimped monsters is a real boon. When fighting, it selects the element for me (after I have set it) so acts as my memory. And with it's keyboard mapping, I can play almost entirely from the keyboard which makes the game much more enjoyable to me. Navigating spellbars with mouse or keyboard is a major pain.
Oh...and it buffs.
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Gafoon
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For me, einstein and stoic are about equivilant... I'm not sure which is better...
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The_Korrigan
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Aaahh ok, so it is very similar to The Stoic, which I use.
Thanks for that clarification.
(I hope Legiondel will fix Stoic too )
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Astalon_Decurth
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Thanks Gouru... First wanted to say I did not mean it to come out that way.
I dont use Tank. so that part is taken care of I use decal primarily for BS2 (Dont want to search through every item looking for that major) and NB2 (Buffing) and some Filtering stuff from PF2 as well as DHS for selecting next unopened corpse Everything else I can do without.
I know you all work hard all the time. I remember seeing someone post the the Memloc's for the normal updates really dident take but maybee a real short amout of time to get it was the testing that took the most. But I know doing a Rewrite it takes ALOT of time.
I did not mean to make it sound like a Bribe (I.E. Get our Decal fixed and Ill give you money) I just wish there was really a way that we could show our appreciation for all the work you all do all the time. Other then the usal You Rock etc... The only thing I could think of at the time was donations for another Hospitality suite. How do you show appreciation to a group of people on a regular basis? I dont know... was just trying to show my appreciation in a physical/visible context.
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rockoutwithaglockout
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i still love eltank because you have so much control over it rebuffs, loots, salvages, and kills. Ican just sit there like this 
And as for thanking by stpping using this program.... im afraid i cant do that.
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We should also point out Decal never had a thing saying if you donate cash you can use all the fuctions of it
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