AzureTyger
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Ashmaele
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The next one that I work with who isn't completely worthless will be the first.
Some companies just hand the stupid title out to new hires because they have no idea WTF else to call them. At least it seems that way.
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Sin_of_Onin
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We are doing a project and I think there is about one manager per person actually doing work. Meanwhile the managers are totally clueless with regards to actually managing scope and expect the worker bees to do it.
/boggle
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Yukishiro1
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That is pretty common, especially in government. There are like 20 people in our HR department but only 2-3 of them actually seem to do anything. The rest have fancy management titles.
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Elocism
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worthless
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Ptilk
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I was an operations manager once.
My only task was to annoy everyone often enough that they realized that someone was actually watching them. I took a bit of sadistic glee in taking all the reports and updates I forced them to send me....and shoving them all in a file that no one ever looked in. Hell, half the time I didn't even file them, I just left them on my desk until they disappeared. I probably used them for scratch paper to jot down notes from the video game I played about 7 hours a day, every day, at work back then.
The best part was (even better than the stuff I just mentioned) I got to take credit if they did a good job, and blame them if they screwed up. Oh god that was a great effing job.
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eodoll
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They dont even care about the content, thy just want your estimate of how long it will take.
I guess its needed to maintain schedules across a wide range of groups... Its actually the sort of job secretaries use to do.
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Ptilk
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Secretaries don't get their own corner office or the ability to tell everyone to STFU and listen. That was fun too.
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Ashmaele
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So we have one project manager I see, wtf is it?
Whoops, 2
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RHWarrior
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The majority at my current job bring a few things to the table.
Mind you I've been at a couple places where they just waste air and people are better off doing their own management.
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ZigmundZag
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Ptilk posted:
Secretaries don't get their own corner office or the ability to tell everyone to STFU and listen. That was fun too.
This. My office tried hiring a "project coordinator" who had zero authority over anyone else. She ended up spending most of her time updating something she called the "Wall Of Fun" and quitting after six months.
I do wish we could have an actual project manager at times just because it's impossible to coordinate resources across departments without a manager, and they're too busy to be bothered with new projects unless it's handed to them by the executive committee.
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Friarspam
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I've managed a few projects and have watched others as well.
If the project manager has attention to detail, support and good communication then things usually go well.
The ones I've seen not work so well have been for a number of reasons:
...
PM thought they knew what they were doing but really didn't understand what they'd gotten themselves into.
Company/boss wanted to change the actual project during the project (usually more than once).
Company/boss failed to deliver on either resources or authority for the project manager.
I'm "ok" as a project manager but I have a friend that is amazing. I have picked his brain a lot. Of course now I live out in the sticks and plan to manage zero projects, lol.
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Cawlin
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If projects didn't need to be managed, there wouldn't be project managers. Trust me when I tell you that PMs aren't exactly that high up on the totem pole that they are part of "executive management" and thus, afforded "guaranteed job" status in this economy.
The bigger the company, the more important project management is. When projects span multiple departments/budget centers, having a project manager is absolutely essential to getting a project completed efficiently.
Of course PMs vary in skill as widely as devs and everyone else does. If you get a good PM, your project goes well, if you don't, well maybe your project may not go so well.
One thing is sure though, in the vast majority of cases, the myopic view of the project team participants is rarely accurate when it comes to a big project in a big company. PMs have pressure from management that most project team members aren't even vaguely aware of and for every bit of annoyance a PM dishes out to the project, you can bet they've gotten twice that from management...
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Project Managers have their uses. In the right context.
Things like BIG coding projects where resource is allocated, broken out into modules, checked against reqs several times along the way, relative progress is required, and then cuts or 'stretch goals' are decided near the end of the cycle? That can work. It's worth the overhead.
I've seen it used in other scenarios where the overhead and disruption it creates is just totally counter-productive.
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GrilledCheez
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I see them as necessary in bureaucratic environments. However, they can ALWAYs add value if they are good and adaptable. Unfortunately the position generally becomes the place crappy fail wanna be managers go to die.
I've worked with some though that made projects more successful resources more successful and managers more successful.
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the_great_intex
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There's lots of bad PMs out there for sure but good ones are invaluable on large scale projects
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GrilledCheez
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good ones are good even on small projects in the right environments because a lot of line managers suck so hard. A good project manager can be like a flashlight for fail.
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theredkay1
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I voted invaluable based on the concept of 'Project Manager'. The potential value added is enormous.
My experience is usually something very short of enormous value add........I dunno.
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Derasio
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You always notice the bad ones, sometimes the good ones fly under the radar. If they are on top of everything and have good communication skills (getting regular updates and co-ordinating without pissing people off) you may not notice how much of your wonderfully smooth running project is actually attributable to them doing a good job.
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Phlegm573
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I have a friend who is a project manager at a large firm. Despite many conversations about his job, I still have no idea WTF he does.
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Cawlin
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Derasio posted:
You always notice the bad ones, sometimes the good ones fly under the radar. If they are on top of everything and have good communication skills (getting regular updates and co-ordinating without pissing people off) you may not notice how much of your wonderfully smooth running project is actually attributable to them doing a good job.
Regarding the bold - when this happens, most people just assume that them taking care of their little tiny sliver of the project is the reason.
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Jorrdan
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Cawlin posted:
Derasio posted:
You always notice the bad ones, sometimes the good ones fly under the radar. If they are on top of everything and have good communication skills (getting regular updates and co-ordinating without pissing people off) you may not notice how much of your wonderfully smooth running project is actually attributable to them doing a good job.
Regarding the bold - when this happens, most people just assume that them taking care of their little tiny sliver of the project is the reason.
Very true. I have known some truly great project managers.
Where I work now, that title (and job) is somewhat blended with the product manager.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Jorrdan posted:
Where I work now, that title (and job) is somewhat blended with the product manager.
Usually a mistake. It's possible for a project manager to be TOO deep into the technical or business knowledge of the project. Usually a product manager can't keep all that properly prioritized and 'separated' where necessary. There are a few, but they're rare.
Now, an overall ops manager, regularly briefed in strategy, who once managed 1 or 2 functions, who is also holding the project manager hat? That is a formidable and often wonderful thing.
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Cawlin
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
Jorrdan posted:
Where I work now, that title (and job) is somewhat blended with the product manager.
Usually a mistake. It's possible for a project manager to be TOO deep into the technical or business knowledge of the project. Usually a product manager can't keep all that properly prioritized and 'separated' where necessary. There are a few, but they're rare.
Now, an overall ops manager, regularly briefed in strategy, who once managed 1 or 2 functions, who is also holding the project manager hat? That is a formidable and often wonderful thing.
I don't have any experience with product managers so I can't speak directly to that. However, I have seen project managers stumble when they've been lifted right out of the ranks of lead developer for massive systems to the role of project manager... for example, a company I used to work for was heavily vested in a global clinical data management system. There were ongoing projects with it all the time - as is warranted for a system of that size.
One of the lead developers for a portion of the system switched jobs to become a project manager and instantly Peter Principled himself because he became unable to handle projects where his portion of the system was involved by virtue of the fact that he was unable to let the devs just do their jobs and he was unable to handle projects relating to other parts of the system because he could not stop treating them all like his own former area of specialization with the system.
This guy would have probably been just fine if they'd put him on project management for a totally different system. Eventually he left the company and went back to being a developer for another company using a similar system...
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Sin_of_Onin
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The key to any good project manager is having someone that understands the scope of the project. Too many are so detached from the project that it is just a series of due dates and they are little more than glorrified minute takers.
I think everyone that is involved in implementations should take a basic project management class so they understand the concepts and have buy in.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Yes... as I said, I'm usually talking about BIG projects, hence BIG companies.
In that environ, it is best not to put a functional manager as the ops/project manager matrixed over the exact same project/system they came from.
The point is to lift him up to work operational work, hopefully learned from a not crappy operational manager above him in his prior role, tempered by an exposure to strategic management and priorities.
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Sin_of_Onin
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You can always tell how bad a PM is by the amount of BS jargon they use.
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Cawlin
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
You can always tell how bad a PM is by the amount of BS jargon they use.
LOL Jargon is often inherited from those managing project managers. Mid level directors usually manage PMs and they all become Six Sigma Greenbelts or whatnot...
That is not to say that jargon isn't sometimes an indicator of inanity, but I don't think it's "always" an indicator...
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__Bonk__
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Ptilk posted:
I was an operations manager once.
My only task was to annoy everyone often enough that they realized that someone was actually watching them. I took a bit of sadistic glee in taking all the reports and updates I forced them to send me....and shoving them all in a file that no one ever looked in. Hell, half the time I didn't even file them, I just left them on my desk until they disappeared. I probably used them for scratch paper to jot down notes from the video game I played about 7 hours a day, every day, at work back then.
The best part was (even better than the stuff I just mentioned) I got to take credit if they did a good job, and blame them if they screwed up. Oh god that was a great effing job.
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