Cawlin
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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Crackdoc
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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Liberal swampgas!
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Tipztoe
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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disagree.
Everyone's guilty of something
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Cawlin
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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Agree (9)
Disagree (3)
I'm mostly saddened because I realize that at least 2 of those 3 disagree votes aren't actually trolls.
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RHWarrior
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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You gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet.
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Hammerhand21
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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Would you sacrifice 1 person to save many... See it goes both ways. What if you let murderers free and more people end up dieing? Was it worth it then?
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Tipztoe
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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would you offer to put yourself in jail if it would keep 10 child rapists out of society?
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Cawlin
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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Hammerhand21 posted:
Would you sacrifice 1 person to save many... See it goes both ways. What if you let murderers free and more people end up dieing? Was it worth it then?
People who think like this, lack a fundamental aspect of humanity called empathy. They always think it will be someone else, and that's OK as long as it isn't them...
Tipztoe posted:
would you offer to put yourself in jail if it would keep 10 child rapists out of society?
Because such people are fundamentally cowards they will never be able to actually follow their stupid line of reasoning to the logical conclusion and truthfully answer "yes" to this question.
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Z-Elder
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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We already know Groucho and Nnanji Grace disagree viciously with this!
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Cawlin
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Subject:
I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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Z-Elder posted:
We already know Groucho and Nnanji Grace disagree viciously with this!
Honestly I don't think either of them really do, deep down in their hearts... Nnanji might say he does to protect his internet hard guy persona, but I don't really believe he disagrees with this.
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Tipztoe
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Subject:
I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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Cawlin posted:
Tipztoe posted:
would you offer to put yourself in jail if it would keep 10 child rapists out of society?
Because such people are fundamentally cowards they will never be able to actually follow their stupid line of reasoning to the logical conclusion and truthfully answer "yes" to this question.
so you're answer is NO.. why not simply answer the question without adding spin?
You would let 10 child rapists run free to protect your freedom.
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Cawlin
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Subject:
I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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Tipztoe posted:
Cawlin posted:
Tipztoe posted:
would you offer to put yourself in jail if it would keep 10 child rapists out of society?
Because such people are fundamentally cowards they will never be able to actually follow their stupid line of reasoning to the logical conclusion and truthfully answer "yes" to this question.
so you're answer is NO.. why not simply answer the question without adding spin?
You would let 10 child rapists run free to protect your freedom.
Yep, and so would you lol.
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Sansfear
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Subject:
I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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I'm curious as to whether it matters to anyone what the crimes they are being accused of.
Let's try a more specific example.
There are 11 people in a room. 1 of them is innocent while the other 10 have each raped and murdered a dozen children.
If they go free, the 10 guilty rapists/murderers have promised to continue their crimes and are guaranteed to kill another 10 children each.
So by choosing to let them all go free, you are guaranteeing that 100 children will die.
Do you still make the same decision?
Is the imprisonment of 1 innocent person greater than the lives of 100 children?
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Tipztoe
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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Cawlin posted:
Yep, and so would you lol.
again.. you are diverting.
edit: fargin quotes
I'll also add the chances of me being wrongly accused of a crime are about 0.
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Cawlin
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Subject:
I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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Sansfear posted:
I'm curious as to whether it matters to anyone what the crimes they are being accused of.
Let's try a more specific example.
There are 11 people in a room. 1 of them is innocent while the other 10 have each raped and murdered a dozen children.
If they go free, the 10 guilty rapists/murderers have promised to continue their crimes and are guaranteed to kill another 10 children each.
So by choosing to let them all go free, you are guaranteeing that 100 children will die.
Do you still make the same decision?
Is the imprisonment of 1 innocent person greater than the lives of 100 children?
Let's be a little more specific....
YOU are the 1 innocent person and the room is about to be gassed, killing everyone inside.
Now you answer.
Tipztoe posted:
Cawlin posted:
Yep, and so would you lol.
again.. you are diverting.
edit: fargin quotes
I answered the question directly.
Oh and playing the "first I post one way, then I reverse myself" troll is just retarded, but it does let me illustrate the wrong-headedness of some peoples' positions on this argument.
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Eager_Igraine
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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Protecting the innocent from the abuses of government is a critical aspect of our criminal justice system.
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Tych2
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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Agree
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Moe_Nox
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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Disagree, emphatically disagree, and gladly on record for disagreeing.
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Bonzoboy1
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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We have lived with guilty people going free before and it hasn't brought down society, yet.
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Tych2
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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I keep thinking about what if I was the innocent person being kept from my family.
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Moe_Nox
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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True enough Bonzo. And likewise innocent people are lost everyday, and no one aside from their families even notice.
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Cawlin
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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Which is more a detriment to society:
Criminals who feel they might be able to get away with their crimes or...
Innocents constantly in fear that they may be wrongfully convicted?
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Elkad
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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Cawlin posted:
YOU are the 1 innocent person and the room is about to be gassed, killing everyone inside.
Now you answer.
Can I have a crowbar when you lock us in, and 2 minutes to solve the problem myself?
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Moe_Nox
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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In all honesty if I am the decider on this it would depend on the crime. Offenders committing violent crimes are less likely to repeat.
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Jorrdan
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Subject:
I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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Cawlin posted:
Sansfear posted:
I'm curious as to whether it matters to anyone what the crimes they are being accused of.
Let's try a more specific example.
There are 11 people in a room. 1 of them is innocent while the other 10 have each raped and murdered a dozen children.
If they go free, the 10 guilty rapists/murderers have promised to continue their crimes and are guaranteed to kill another 10 children each.
So by choosing to let them all go free, you are guaranteeing that 100 children will die.
Do you still make the same decision?
Is the imprisonment of 1 innocent person greater than the lives of 100 children?
Let's be a little more specific....
YOU are the 1 innocent person and the room is about to be gassed, killing everyone inside.
Now you answer.
Tough call. If I'm being honest, the only way I probably don't let them go is if I know with 100% certainty one of the children that will be later killed is one that I love. I mean, there are a lot of kids that annoy the shit out of me.
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Eh.
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Rhint
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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Honestly, I voted agree. The reason I voted agree is because I am a law abiding citizen and from a purely selfish standpoint I would hate to be wrongfully convicted of a crime and serve time for it.
I also believe that when we punish the innocent it makes us no better than those guilty of crime.
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Tipztoe
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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Cawlin posted:
I answered the question directly.
No you didn't. Why can't you simply post you would let 10 child rapists free to save your skin? Leave it at that. You can't without trying to say I'd do it too, or it's stupid or try to spin it some other way. You asked a really stupid question, and then argue the answers..lol
Some people would consider that kind of sacrifice very noble.. maybe even consider them a saint.
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Groucho48
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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So, you guys would like to give the government the power to lock up 10 folks of its choosing whenever a crime is committed, as long as it was sure one of them was guilty?
As to the argument that, if you let a child rapist go free, he will go out and rape more kids. Well, if you let the cops know they can close a case by arresting the next guy that walks by, aren't you encouraging them to not try and catch the real bad guys? Letting those bad guys commit even more crimes?
Let's not even get into the extra cost of having 10 times as many folks in prison.
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paulg_68
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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I can't bear the thought of imprisoning innocent people. I think execution is actually pretty humane. In order to suffer a person must be alive. I don't want to make people suffer.
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Tipztoe
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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Groucho48 posted:
So, you guys would like to give the government the power to lock up 10 folks of its choosing whenever a crime is committed, as long as it was sure one of them was guilty?
.
I think you got that backwards
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Cawlin
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Subject:
I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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Tipztoe posted:
Cawlin posted:
I answered the question directly.
No you didn't. Why can't you simply post you would let 10 child rapists free to save your skin? Leave it at that. You can't without trying to say I'd do it too, or it's stupid or try to spin it some other way. You asked a really stupid question, and then argue the answers..lol
Some people would consider that kind of sacrifice very noble.. maybe even consider them a saint.
It's not my fault that you can't handle the implications of your backwards thinking.
This isn't about someone sacrificing themselves for the so-called "greater good", it's about someone innocent being incarcerated and/or executed against their will in the name of what someone ELSE decided was the "greater good". Now, if I were in a situation that I could risk my life or risk injury to save 10 children, I might just decide to do so, but it would be my choice to do so or to not do so. Because you fail to understand this point, it is clear to me that you either a) don't speak/read/write English very well or b) lack a fundamental quality of humanity or c) haven't thought your absurd position through.
As for your stupid question, I will answer it again: yes - without qualification, caveat, or reservation, yes - I would not allow myself to be wrongfully imprisoned or executed, even if it meant 10 child rapists would ALSO go free. Or put differently - no, if I could stop it, I would not allow myself to be wrongfully imprisoned or executed in order to keep 10 child rapists in prison.
I will add (again) that you and everyone else would prefer to have your own "skin saved" as well. You are uncomfortable that I called your foolish position into question because I made you think about it and so you respond with the only half-witted thing you could come up with: "NO U!" - typical. If that's not a direct enough answer for you, maybe you need to go back and learn a little more English because I can't say it any more plainly than I've done here twice now.
Groucho48 posted:
So, you guys would like to give the government the power to lock up 10 folks of its choosing whenever a crime is committed, as long as it was sure one of them was guilty?
As to the argument that, if you let a child rapist go free, he will go out and rape more kids. Well, if you let the cops know they can close a case by arresting the next guy that walks by, aren't you encouraging them to not try and catch the real bad guys? Letting those bad guys commit even more crimes?
Let's not even get into the extra cost of having 10 times as many folks in prison.
You've got it totally backwards Groucho. Reread the original premise. It's a fairly basic concept of justice, morality, and the social contract that is about as old as civilization.
paulg_68 posted:
I can't bear the thought of imprisoning innocent people. I think execution is actually pretty humane. In order to suffer a person must be alive. I don't want to make people suffer.
Neither can anyone with any humanity at all bear the thought of imprisoning innocent people. Further, I agree that execution is fairly humane compared to something like a long or even life sentence, given the state of our prison system. Most of the people who disagree with the premise do in fact want to make people suffer. They lack the empathy and humanity to understand that their vengeful, punitive outlook on life is as much a prison to them as it is to those they would imprison.
It is the very height of unenlightened thinking to miss this point and it is ironic that many of those who fancy themselves the most "enlightened" and "nuanced" thinkers find themselves foundering around this basic point.
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NuEM
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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Why 10? Why not 100 or 100000? Tell you what, if we kill everyone, we also kill every child rapist!
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Cawlin
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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NuEM posted:
Why 10? Why not 100 or 100000? Tell you what, if we kill everyone, we also kill every child rapist!
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Tipztoe
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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I'd like to vote this thread the most retarded in the outpost for 2012.
OP can be knowledgeable at times, but he's not very bright.
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Kjarhall
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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The glue that holds society together comes undone when you're willing to sacrifice the innocent to get to the guilty.
The reverse is not true though.
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Cawlin
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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Tipztoe posted:
I'm a monkey and a poor troll on top of it.
Agreed.
Kjarhall posted:
The glue that holds society together comes undone when you're willing to sacrifice the innocent to get to the guilty.
The reverse is not true though.
Agreed.
Cawlin posted:
Which is more a detriment to society:
Criminals who feel they might be able to get away with their crimes or...
Innocents constantly in fear that they may be wrongfully convicted?
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Tipztoe
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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Cawlin posted:
I suck off lonely truckers to earn merit badges
/affected
You ask stupid questions, you get stupid answers. You deserved to be trolled without effort because this whole thread had zero thought put into it.
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Vydor
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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Kjarhall posted:
The glue that holds society together comes undone when you're willing to sacrifice the innocent to get to the guilty.
The reverse is not true though.
Well put.
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Cawlin
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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Tipztoe posted:
I'm trying to save face by continuing to troll poorly.
Yeah, we know.
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Tipztoe
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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Cawlin posted:
Tipztoe posted:
I'm trying to save face by continuing to troll poorly.
Yeah, we know.
I'm not so sure on calling you on your idiocy would be considered trolling.
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Tych2
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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I always find it funny that people get upset when someone fake quotes them after they fake quote someone else.
A lot of people here do that.
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Tipztoe
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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Tych2 posted:
I always find it funny that people get upset when someone fake quotes them after they fake quote someone else.
A lot of people here do that.
consider the source.
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Yukishiro1
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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Tych2 posted:
I'm a huge Yankees fan!
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Tych2
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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Cawlin
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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Tipztoe posted:
Cawlin posted:
Tipztoe posted:
I'm trying to save face by continuing to troll poorly.
Yeah, we know.
I'm not so sure on calling you on your idiocy would be considered trolling.
You still don't understand this basic tenet of justice and any reasonable judicial system. Your input and opinions on the matter are backwards and not really valid in any modern civilization. It's that simple.
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Yukishiro1
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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Tych2 posted:
I want you to know I had to think really, really hard to come up with an American sports reference. You should be proud!
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Groucho48
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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Yeah, I got it backwards.
The nuns taught me that the only thing that matters is your own immortal soul. It is wrong to commit a sin...punish an innocent man. No ifs ands or buts about it. If others commit a sin...those 10 guilty folks...their sin is on them. As would be any future sins they commit. I would guess that's a basic tenet of Christianity. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Also, ends don't justify the means.
That's the moral argument.
The practical argument is that, if folks don't have faith in the system of justice, then, that would tend to reduce our faith and commitment to society as a whole. In the long run, causing more damage than those freed guilty folks do.
I would add that if you have a justice system that is so screwed up that it can't get better than 90% accuracy in convicting the guilty, then, you should be focused on fixing your lousy system rather than wringing your hands about how many murderers it lets go free.
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Tipztoe
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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Cawlin posted:
Tipztoe posted:
Cawlin posted:
[quote=Tipztoe]I'm trying to save face by continuing to troll poorly.
Yeah, we know.
I'm not so sure on calling you on your idiocy would be considered trolling.
You still don't understand this basic tenet of justice and any reasonable judicial system. Your input and opinions on the matter are backwards and not really valid in any modern civilization. It's that simple.[/quote]
If the outpost disagreed with me on calling you out on your bs, I'd be getting crucified. The fact that that hasn't happened speaks volumes.
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Moe_Nox
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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Kjarhall posted:
The glue that holds society together comes undone when you're willing to sacrifice the innocent to get to the guilty.
Comes undone? I think you have that backwards: at times it has been the only action to keep society from coming undone.
From bands of hunters going into harms way to slay a beast to divisions of soldiers sent to defeat a tyrant.
The innocent have been dying for a long time now to protect society.
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Kjarhall
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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Moe_Nox posted:
Kjarhall posted:
The glue that holds society together comes undone when you're willing to sacrifice the innocent to get to the guilty.
Comes undone? I think you have that backwards: at times it has been the only action to keep society from coming undone.
From bands of hunters going into harms way to slay a beast to divisions of soldiers sent to defeat a tyrant.
The innocent have been dying for a long time now to protect society.
Those aren't protecting society, as a construct, they're protecting the individuals that populate society.
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Cawlin
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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Tipztoe posted:
If the outpost disagreed with me on calling you out on your bs, I'd be getting crucified. The fact that that hasn't happened speaks volumes.
Um... 38 agree, 10 disagree... the fact that you don't even understand how clearly most people here disagree with you is actually what speaks volumes.
Moe_Nox posted:
Kjarhall posted:
The glue that holds society together comes undone when you're willing to sacrifice the innocent to get to the guilty.
Comes undone? I think you have that backwards: at times it has been the only action to keep society from coming undone.
From bands of hunters going into harms way to slay a beast to divisions of soldiers sent to defeat a tyrant.
The innocent have been dying for a long time now to protect society.
You're confusing the issue again by comparing peoples' sacrifices that they make as soldiers or law enforcement with innocent people wrongfully convicted and punished by the government.
Soldiers make a sacrifice, sometimes unwilling, as conscripts, to protect their country. They get paid for it, and they get treated with respect or at least cared for after serving their country. Sure it may not have always been so, but that's the standard now.
Convicting someone who is innocent is not an act to protect society, it is, in most cases an act of a vindictive society and it is very much NOT the same thing as a soldier dying on the battlefield - regardless of how just or unjust the war is.
The problem with your thinking is that you feel that by having the ability to convict people without taking great pains to attempt to ensure no innocents get wrongfully convicted, we are actually serving society. We're not. Your thinking is vindictive and punitive and ultimately self-defeating.
Think about this remark:
NuEM posted:
Why 10? Why not 100 or 100000? Tell you what, if we kill everyone, we also kill every child rapist!
This is where your thinking leads.
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Tipztoe
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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Cawlin posted:
Tipztoe posted:
If the outpost disagreed with me on calling you out on your bs, I'd be getting crucified. The fact that that hasn't happened speaks volumes.
Um... 38 agree, 10 disagree... the fact that you don't even understand how clearly most people here disagree with you is actually what speaks volumes.
not talking about the poll LOL
My advice is lighten up, get off your self righteous pedestal, don't confuse your opinion with fact, and don't go to a barber who only cuts your hair in the middle.
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Cawlin
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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Yeah, I'd back away from this argument too if I were you.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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OK I'll state the obvious.
The legal and law enforcement systems aren't well geared to catch people who commit 1 crime alone. "1 and done" is not the profile of most criminals, anyway.
People make a bad move or two, get caught eventually, get into the system, get some monitoring or rep, and their M.O. captured. We get their fingerprints and other relevant facts. THEN when they do something down the road there's a better chance of catching them.
It's just how it works.
In such a world, pushing for "a head" on a specific crime is usually a bad idea. It becomes a witch hunt and, often, a self-fulfilling prophecy that can get a reasonable (but innocent) suspect railroaded.
The system is SUPPOSED to err in favor of letting people get by. It counts on catching repeat offenders down the road as a matter of probability.
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Tipztoe
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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Cawlin posted:
Yeah, I'd back away from this argument too if I were you.
more spin lol
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Cawlin
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
OK I'll state the obvious.
The legal and law enforcement systems aren't well geared to catch people who commit 1 crime alone. "1 and done" is not the profile of most criminals, anyway.
People make a bad move or two, get caught eventually, get into the system, get some monitoring or rep, and their M.O. captured. We get their fingerprints and other relevant facts. THEN when they do something down the road there's a better chance of catching them.
It's just how it works.
In such a world, pushing for "a head" on a specific crime is usually a bad idea. It becomes a witch hunt and, often, a self-fulfilling prophecy that can get a reasonable (but innocent) suspect railroaded.
The system is SUPPOSED to err in favor of letting people get by. It counts on catching repeat offenders down the road as a matter of probability.
Politics are what drives the bold stuff here. DAs want to appear tough on crime. Nothing stirs the public like crimes against children. Convicting people for crimes against children is even more politically beneficial than being "tough on drugs" lol. It is part of the problem inherent in our system.
It is SUCH a large problem that people use the premise of crimes against children and the mandatory investigation and likely prosecution of any allegation of such as a weapon against others. For those who don't think this happens, you should talk to some family law attorneys sometimes and see just how frequent it is...
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Eager_Igraine
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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Kjarhall posted:
The glue that holds society together comes undone when you're willing to sacrifice the innocent to get to the guilty.
The reverse is not true though.
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Moe_Nox
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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The problem is some of you are basing your thinking on wishful thinking rather than reality.
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_Gimpzilla_
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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Generally when you wrongfully convict the innocent, that implies that someone guilty already *has* gone free.
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Groucho48
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I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be wrongfully convicted.
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_Gimpzilla_ posted:
Generally when you wrongfully convict the innocent, that implies that someone guilty already *has* gone free.
Good point!
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