Ashmaele
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Is a requirement to know the native language pretty much a prerequisite to citizenship everywhere?
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I *think* I read somewhere that you need to know French or English to become a citizen of Canada, is this true? I know that some other countries require it in order to grant citizenship. If this is so then why is it somehow bad for the US to follow suit?
Our secretary just got hung up on because the person calling was angry that we have no one here who can speak Spanish. I'm about as liberal as they come on most issues, but this kind of thing infuriates me. I was stationed in Italy for TWO friggin years, and lived on base the entire time. I learned the language. I have a friend from France who has been here for 3 years and installs granite countertops. He learned the language, and speaks better English than the fabricators who cut the granite. Some of those guys have been here for 20+ years and speak almost NO English. This is pure, unadulterated laziness IMO.
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Scarne
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Is a requirement to know the native language pretty much a prerequisite to citizenship everywhere?
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The person may not have been a citizen. 
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Yukishiro1
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Is a requirement to know the native language pretty much a prerequisite to citizenship everywhere?
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It's a prerequisite to getting citizenship if you weren't born with it in a lot of places. Although in practice what you are required to demonstrate is pretty limited. In Japan for example you basically just have to be able to have a basic conversation with the citizenship examiner for like 5 minutes about pretty simple stuff, like how many people are in your family, what you like to do in your free time, that sort of thing. Basically if you can talk about like a 5 year old you're fine.
There are very few people in America who speak no english whatsoever.
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Lyndrek
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I make granite countertops.....
i speak english and spanish fluently... give me some time and i'll brush off my german and american sign language skills. was pretty damn good at them
and yes, every other country requires you to learn the official language to become a citizen. 
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Eager_Igraine
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Ashmaele posted:
I'm about as liberal as they come on most issues, but this kind of thing infuriates me.
I have this pet peeve as well.
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tenkly
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Ashmaele posted:
I *think* I read somewhere that you need to know French or English to become a citizen of Canada, is this true?
Yes. If you don't know how to speak at least one of the two official languages, fuck off. You won't be of any help or use to anyone here.
They make you write a test to prove that you know the language . The test needs to be harder though since some places in B.C are now requiring people to know mandarin or cantonese for a job because a lot of asians live there now. Which is complete bullshit .
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theredkay1
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Is it lazy that you havent learned spanish? Or does the laziness just flow one way on this one?
If your French friend had found a large community in the US that spoke French, he probably would have been lazy too.
Lazy seems like the wrong word here.
Seems to me that the government doesnt have a real interest in how people communicate. Communication is a valuable skill, but its just one of many. I dont think we should exclude people just because you are too lazy to learn Spanish.
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NuEM
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Good for you guys none of you had to learn any of the natives languages. 
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Ashmaele
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If I lived in Mexico or anywhere in Latin America it would be lazy for me not to learn the native language. It would also defy credulity to get all pissed off when I called someone in Mexico and learned that there was no one available who could speak English.
I have no problem with open immigration but I expect you to learn the language. It's not too much to ask.
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Eager_Igraine
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I'm not a fan of tax money being spent on document duplication for people who refuse to learn the language. To a large degree, this also goes for funding translators and interpreters.
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tenkly
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theredkay1 posted:
Is it lazy that you havent learned spanish? Or does the laziness just flow one way on this one?
If your French friend had found a large community in the US that spoke French, he probably would have been lazy too.
Lazy seems like the wrong word here.
Seems to me that the government doesnt have a real interest in how people communicate. Communication is a valuable skill, but its just one of many. I dont think we should exclude people just because you are too lazy to learn Spanish.
So you're saying people should go out of their way to learn languages other than the official languages just because some people don't want to learn the official languages? That's a retarded argument.
I speak both official languages fluently, I am also learning spanish but it's on my own free time and I'm in no real rush to do it. If a spanish person who lives in canada wants service from me, I would expect them to know AT LEAST one of the two official languages.
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Ashmaele
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Is a requirement to know the native language pretty much a prerequisite to citizenship everywhere?
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Eager_Igraine posted:
I'm not a fan of tax money being spent on document duplication for people who refuse to learn the language. To a large degree, this also goes for funding translators and interpreters.
The state of FL has spent a nice chunk of change sending my gf to ESOL classes because some immigrant parents are not only too lazy to learn English themselves, they're too lazy to make sure their children can communicate effectively in the native language before they enroll them in school. She even had one student put in her class after the first nine weeks who spoke NO English. At all. None. HTF is she supposed to teach this kid anything??
It's complete bull****.
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Yukishiro1
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Is a requirement to know the native language pretty much a prerequisite to citizenship everywhere?
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America doesn't have an official language, and English is pretty clearly not the "native" language of America.
Also, I know TONS of Americans who go to foreign countries and expect people to speak English to them. Pretty much everyone actually.
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Eager_Igraine
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Yukishiro1 posted:
America doesn't have an official language, and English is pretty clearly not the "native" language of America.
Also, I know TONS of Americans who go to foreign countries and expect people to speak English to them. Pretty much everyone actually.
It would be nice if Engrish were the official language and I know it isn't. Also, I don't think anyone would really dispute that, generally, Americans are crappy, moronic tourists with stupid expectations.
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Ashmaele
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In Europe, most places I went had people who spoke English. I think it's taught in most of the schools nowadays. Most of the people were pretty patient with us if we at least TRIED to communicate in their language (even in France). However, if you did not even pretend to make an effort they'd just stand there and look at you like you were an idiot or something. They seemed to have the attitude: "If you're not even going to try, why should I?"
Also, you can replace "native" with "overwhelmingly predominant" if you'd like, it makes no difference to me. If the Constitution had been written in Apache I am sure we'd all be speaking Apache right now.
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Yukishiro1
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You live in Florida. It is pretty silly to be all up in arms that lots of people speak Spanish and don't speak English very well. That's sorta like living in Switzerland on the border with Italy and being annoyed their German is bad.
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Cawlin
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This thread reminds me of a joke a PA State Trooper told me once:
Q: Why is a mod like a cueball?
A: The harder you hit 'em, the more English you get out of 'em...
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theredkay1
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tenkly posted:
So you're saying people should go out of their way to learn languages other than the official languages just because some people don't want to learn the official languages? That's a retarded argument.
No, Im not saying people should go out of their way. I just think getting all upset that someone hasnt learned your language is kind of stupid when you have made the exact same decision.
Knowing multiple languages is a valuable skill. Im not sure what you think the term 'official language' means....its kind of a meaningless artificial construct that shouldnt influence anyones behavior.
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Ashmaele
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Yukishiro1 posted:
You live in Florida. It is pretty silly to be all up in arms that lots of people speak Spanish and don't speak English very well. That's sorta like living in Switzerland on the border with Italy and being annoyed their German is bad.
Actually what inspired my post was that someone just got all up in arms up in here because we don't speak Spanish, not the other way around.
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Yukishiro1
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Whatever. I guess I don't find it so strange. It would be different if you lived in bumfuk minnesota or something. I don't find it odd some random douchebag might get mad there isn't a spanish speaker at some company in florida. Random douchebags will find anything to get mad about. I don't see how it's representative of anything.
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Aerlinthian
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Ashmaele posted:
Some of those guys have been here for 20+ years and speak almost NO English. This is pure, unadulterated laziness IMO.
Actually it is more than that with some of them. It is a political statement and attitude.
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tenkly
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theredkay1 posted:
tenkly posted:
So you're saying people should go out of their way to learn languages other than the official languages just because some people don't want to learn the official languages? That's a retarded argument.
No, Im not saying people should go out of their way. I just think getting all upset that someone hasnt learned your language is kind of stupid when you have made the exact same decision.
Knowing multiple languages is a valuable skill. Im not sure what you think the term 'official language' means....its kind of a meaningless artificial construct that shouldnt influence anyones behavior.
No it's not meaningless. Welcome to Canada.
http://www.ocol-clo.gc.ca/html/charter_charte_e.php
Official languages are addressed specifically sections 16 to 23Government site. For example, section 20Government site states that "any member of the public in Canada has the right to communicate with, and to receive available services from, any head or central office of an institution of the Parliament or government of Canada in English or French [...]"
http://www.pch.gc.ca/pgm/lo-ol/bllng/hist-eng.cfm
1969
Following the work of the Commission, the first Official Languages Act is adopted by Parliament. This Act recognized English and French as the official languages of all federal institutions in Canada. It grants equality of status of French and English not only in the Parliament or before courts, but also throughout the federal administration. The Act states that the public has the right to receive services from federal institutions in certain locations and to appear before federal courts and tribunals in the official language of their choice.
New Brunswick enacts its first Official Languages Act , making it Canada 's first, and only, officially bilingual province.
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reesescups
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As of oct 2008. New N-400 applicants take the 'new test' which is the same as the previous test with two additional sections testing knowledge of American Society and English language proficiency...
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Yukishiro1
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BTW, the American history part of the test is funny because probably less than 25% of American citizens could actually pass it.
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__Bonk__
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Good luck getting many jobs if you dont know English here in America
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Darkblade_The_Great
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Yukishiro1 posted:
America doesn't have an official language, and English is pretty clearly not the "native" language of America.
Also, I know TONS of Americans who go to foreign countries and expect people to speak English to them. Pretty much everyone actually.
For some reason I am not surprised that everybody you know is a douche bag when they travel.
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Yukishiro1
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Uh you are lying to yourself or just have no experience at all if you don't think many (probably most) Americans abroad don't basically stick to english the whole time.
And no, adding "por favor" onto the end of your English sentence doesn't qualify as speaking spanish. Sorry.
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IMHO
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Uh you are lying to yourself or just have no experience at all if you don't think many (probably most) Americans abroad don't basically stick to english the whole time.
And no, adding "por favor" onto the end of your English sentence doesn't qualify as speaking spanish. Sorry.
There's a difference between speaking English while vacationing in a foreign country spending money and sneaking into a country and stealing work and expecting that country to bend to your druthers.
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Yukishiro1
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"Stealing work?" Tell us how you really feel? 
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paulg_68
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Lyndrek posted:
I make granite countertops.....
i speak english and spanish fluently... give me some time and i'll brush off my german and american sign language skills. was pretty damn good at them
But can you make a search function?
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NuEM
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Ive never actually met a stereotypically fat and dumb American in real life and you guys seem educated too (as long as youre not talking about math) but I tend to avoid places that attract fat dumb tourists.
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Darwynnia
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If you move to a country, you learn the language(s) spoken there - at least one of them.
It's not that difficult a concept.
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Brother_Tempus
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What people want to speak among themselves is their business, however if there must be a government than that government should only do business in one language.
Those wishing to interact with the government should be fluent/literate in the language that government uses
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Darwynnia
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Brother_Tempus posted:
What people want to speak among themselves is their business, however if there must be a government than that government should only do business in one language.
Those wishing to interact with the government should be fluent/literate in the language that government uses
Yeah, but the language of bullshit is universal.
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Ashmaele
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paulg_68 posted:
Lyndrek posted:
I make granite countertops.....
i speak english and spanish fluently... give me some time and i'll brush off my german and american sign language skills. was pretty damn good at them
But can you make a search function?
Yes, it's made of granite
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Bonzoboy1
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I speak Spanish but of course I live in the Mexican state of California.
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Yukishiro1
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Someone living in an area that used to mostly speak Spanish complaining that the people there don't learn his language is somewhat funny from a historical perspective.
If we went by "learn the language of the place you move to" we wouldn't be speaking English.
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Ashmaele
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Is a requirement to know the native language pretty much a prerequisite to citizenship everywhere?
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Yeah and if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle.
BTW I've been doing Spanish for Dummies for a while now and I'm having some trouble with it, I think the fact that I learned Italian first has me screwed up 
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Yukishiro1
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Subject:
Is a requirement to know the native language pretty much a prerequisite to citizenship everywhere?
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I just think it's convenient that history never seems to matter when we don't want it to and always matters when we do want it to.
If people actually learned the languages of the places they went to live in you'd be speaking Seminole or something like that.
People don't. Most people only learn a language if they have to. Government forcing you to is one reason people learn languages but I don't think it's a very good one. It should just be left up to society.
If learning English is really important to someone they will learn. If it isn't, they won't.
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NuEM
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Subject:
Is a requirement to know the native language pretty much a prerequisite to citizenship everywhere?
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By the way I find it quite interesting to figure out how languages are related.
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Bonzoboy1
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Subject:
Is a requirement to know the native language pretty much a prerequisite to citizenship everywhere?
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If people don't want to learn English when they move to the U.S. that is fine but we should stop wasting money on translators and signs in 20 languages in government offices.
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Yukishiro1
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Subject:
Is a requirement to know the native language pretty much a prerequisite to citizenship everywhere?
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Not much money gets spent on that stuff and it is worth it if the alternative is people not understanding important things they should understand.
Of course, for most people who rant about this facts don't matter and it is all about "sending a statement" whether it makes sense to do so or not.
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Eager_Igraine
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Subject:
Is a requirement to know the native language pretty much a prerequisite to citizenship everywhere?
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Yukishiro1 posted:
I just think it's convenient that history never seems to matter when we don't want it to and always matters when we do want it to.
If people actually learned the languages of the places they went to live in you'd be speaking Seminole or something like that.
That might make more sense if the Seminoles, or whoever, were the established nation that everyone else was joining rather than a tribe that got the beat down by its conquerors.
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Yukishiro1
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Is a requirement to know the native language pretty much a prerequisite to citizenship everywhere?
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So basically people didn't learn to speak seminole because they didn't think they had to.
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Eager_Igraine
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Subject:
Is a requirement to know the native language pretty much a prerequisite to citizenship everywhere?
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Yukishiro1 posted:
So basically people didn't learn to speak seminole because they didn't think they had to.
People didn't learn Seminole because the Seminole had no power to make their language necessary. I'm all for people being free to learn or not learn whatever languages they want. I am also all for restricting publication of documentation and publicly provided services to the English language. The burden for not learning English should fall on the shoulders of those who chose not to learn rather than on the state, imho.
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Yukishiro1
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Subject:
Is a requirement to know the native language pretty much a prerequisite to citizenship everywhere?
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That's just an argument from emotion. It costs very little to provide critical information in more than one language and the potential gains are large. Most of the stuff that is translated is either (1) very important stuff like "don't walk here, you will fall off the cliff and die" or (2) very technical stuff, that people who don't speak natively are going to have a lot of trouble with no matter what.
Using the state to enforce linguistic uniformity has a long history and it is neither pretty nor positive.
If knowing English is a big advantage most people will learn. If someone people don't want to learn it shouldn't be the state's business to try to force them to, nor should the state cut off its own nose to spite its face by not providing important resources in a variety of languages if the demand is there.
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Eager_Igraine
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Subject:
Is a requirement to know the native language pretty much a prerequisite to citizenship everywhere?
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Yukishiro1 posted:
That's just an argument from emotion. It costs very little to provide critical information in more than one language and the potential gains are large. Most of the stuff that is translated is either (1) very important stuff like "don't walk here, you will fall off the cliff and die" or (2) very technical stuff, that people who don't speak natively are going to have a lot of trouble with no matter what.
Using the state to enforce linguistic uniformity has a long history and it is neither pretty nor positive.
If knowing English is a big advantage most people will learn. If someone people don't want to learn it shouldn't be the state's business to try to force them to, nor should the state cut off its own nose to spite its face by not providing important resources in a variety of languages if the demand is there.
That's just an argument from emotion. The state has no need to force people to learn the language. People have an interest in learning the language to participate in living in the state.
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Yukishiro1
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Subject:
Is a requirement to know the native language pretty much a prerequisite to citizenship everywhere?
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Well sure. And most of them do.
People arn't going to learn English so they can read the sign saying "don't walk here or you'll die."
Nor are they going to learn English so they can figure out how to do their taxes. Native speakers can't figure out how to do their taxes. It'd be practically impossible in a foreign language no matter how proficient you were.
If you don't provide those resources in other languages it just ends up hurting the state as much as it hurts the people. Cutting off your nose to spite your face is generally a silly thing to do.
Early in this country's history it was super common to find populations of people who spoke other languages and very little if any english. The reason we don't have english as an official language is apparently because people were afraid german might win the ballot in a bunch of places. You can still find some very old people in ohio and other places in the midwest who speak german as their native language and english poorly if at all.
If there are a lot of people in a community who speak another language it really doesn't help anyone for the state to stick its head in the ground and pretend those people don't exist or that its drama queening will cause them to learn the language.
What leads to people not speaking english in america is insular minority communities cut off from the rest of society. The state holding their hand (or not) really has nothing to do with it.
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Remnant_OBrien
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Subject:
Is a requirement to know the native language pretty much a prerequisite to citizenship everywhere?
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Darwynnia posted:
If you move to a country, you learn the language(s) spoken there - at least one of them.
It's not that difficult a concept.
Like Spanish in the United States?
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Tych2
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Is a requirement to know the native language pretty much a prerequisite to citizenship everywhere?
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Spanish is a distant second in the US. Its not even a little close. It's like 10% or so of the country speaks Spanish as a main language.
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Remnant_OBrien
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Is a requirement to know the native language pretty much a prerequisite to citizenship everywhere?
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Still one of the languages spoken here
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Yukishiro1
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Is a requirement to know the native language pretty much a prerequisite to citizenship everywhere?
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In Florida it used to be a lot more than 10%. But then a bunch of English people moved there and refused to learn Spanish, so that now Ashmaele can be mad about Spanish people moving there and not learning English.
If God does exist he definitely has a sense of humor.
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