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Topic: DHS contracts ATK for 450,000,000 rounds of hollow point .40 caliber ammo.
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illmyrin
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Subject:
DHS contracts ATK for 450,000,000 rounds of hollow point .40 caliber ammo.
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ATK announced that it is being awarded an Indefinite Delivery/Indefinite Quantity (IDIQ) agreement from the Department of Homeland Security, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (DHS, ICE) for .40 caliber ammunition. This contract features a base of 12 months, includes four option years, and will have a maximum volume of 450 million rounds.
ATK was the incumbent and won the contract with its HST bullet, which has proven itself in the field. The special hollow point effectively passes through a variety of barriers and holds its jacket in the toughest conditions. HST is engineered for 100-percent weight retention, limits collateral damage, and avoids over-penetration.
“We are proud to extend our track record as the prime supplier of .40 caliber duty ammunition for DHS, ICE,†said Ron Johnson, President of ATK’s Security and Sporting group.
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Koneg
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Subject:
DHS contracts ATK for 450,000,000 rounds of hollow point .40 caliber ammo.
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illmyrin posted:
DHS contracts ATK for 450,000,000 rounds of hollow point .40 caliber ammo.
It's a government agency and a big scary number! ZOMG THEY'RE PLANNING THE A-POCK-O-LIPS!
Well... not so much 
Let's say ~100,000 armed agents out of the total ~200,000 employees (Border Patrol, Customs, ICE, DHS, etc)
Each must practice with and qualify with their weapon frequently.
If each fired just 100 rounds a month practicing or qualifying that's 120 million rounds a year. A 4 year, 450 million round contract sounds about right. In fact, they'll probably need more ammo than that.
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Bonzoboy1
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Subject:
DHS contracts ATK for 450,000,000 rounds of hollow point .40 caliber ammo.
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Hollow points are a good choice for police agencies, there is much less chance of a ricochet.
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Cawlin
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Subject:
DHS contracts ATK for 450,000,000 rounds of hollow point .40 caliber ammo.
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It's a good round. I wonder what the per unit cost is...
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illmyrin
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Subject:
DHS contracts ATK for 450,000,000 rounds of hollow point .40 caliber ammo.
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Koneg posted:
illmyrin posted:
DHS contracts ATK for 450,000,000 rounds of hollow point .40 caliber ammo.
It's a government agency and a big scary number! ZOMG THEY'RE PLANNING THE A-POCK-O-LIPS!
Well... not so much
Let's say ~100,000 armed agents out of the total ~200,000 employees (Border Patrol, Customs, ICE, DHS, etc)
Each must practice with and qualify with their weapon frequently.
If each fired just 100 rounds a month practicing or qualifying that's 120 million rounds a year. A 4 year, 450 million round contract sounds about right. In fact, they'll probably need more ammo than that.
You make a very good point! I was going to go for the supply buy up side effect and insider trading method rather than suggesting they are about to murder us all(almost 1,000,000,000 more bullets than would be needed to execute every US citizen).
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_Gatto_
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Subject:
DHS contracts ATK for 450,000,000 rounds of hollow point .40 caliber ammo.
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Koneg posted:
illmyrin posted:
DHS contracts ATK for 450,000,000 rounds of hollow point .40 caliber ammo.
It's a government agency and a big scary number! ZOMG THEY'RE PLANNING THE A-POCK-O-LIPS!
Well... not so much
Let's say ~100,000 armed agents out of the total ~200,000 employees (Border Patrol, Customs, ICE, DHS, etc)
Each must practice with and qualify with their weapon frequently.
If each fired just 100 rounds a month practicing or qualifying that's 120 million rounds a year. A 4 year, 450 million round contract sounds about right. In fact, they'll probably need more ammo than that.
Metal face you are spot on.
A number of agencies fall under the DHS / ICE unmbrella and their (weapons toting) staff numbers combined are huge.
The Borde Patrol alone, my agency, has 18,000+ agents. We qualify quarterly on 3 weapons systems. Our 40 pistol, the M4, and a shotgun. We use about about 75 rounds for the 40, 60 for the M4 and 5 for the shotgun each time we qual... Following our quals we do 4 hours of training with weapons that can burn up another 40 rounds of .40, 20 rounds of M4, and 10 rounds of shot gun...
Each agency has a number of trainees that are in their respective academies for a number of months... The weapons training for new trainees alone burns thru some serious ammo on a daily basis.
As for the type of ammo... Why train with anything other than what you will use in a real fight? To do so is foolish and invites death. Also, its very good idea to train on the exact items/equipment you use on duty when your actions are under scrutiny in an investigation or in court.
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Eradiani
Title: Moderator/ EvEVault Staff
AE mid to deep
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Subject:
DHS contracts ATK for 450,000,000 rounds of hollow point .40 caliber ammo.
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illmyrin posted:
You make a very good point! I was going to go for the supply buy up side effect and insider trading method rather than suggesting they are about to murder us all(almost 1,000,000,000 more bullets than would be needed to execute every US citizen).
wow.. not only are you a conspiracy theorist on everything, but your math is quite impressive as well
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Mastara
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Subject:
DHS contracts ATK for 450,000,000 rounds of hollow point .40 caliber ammo.
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I know myself I can fire 200-300 rounds of .40 s&w in an hour or so 1 day at the range. 223/308 I can fire 200-400 by myself with 1 range outing. The numbers aren't all that much. Plus with reloading you can cut the price in half or more.
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Thugoneous
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Subject:
DHS contracts ATK for 450,000,000 rounds of hollow point .40 caliber ammo.
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Coast Guard is DHS also.
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illmyrin
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Subject:
DHS contracts ATK for 450,000,000 rounds of hollow point .40 caliber ammo.
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Eradiani posted:
illmyrin posted:
You make a very good point! I was going to go for the supply buy up side effect and insider trading method rather than suggesting they are about to murder us all(almost 1,000,000,000 more bullets than would be needed to execute every US citizen).
wow.. not only are you a conspiracy theorist on everything, but your math is quite impressive as well
I meant 1,000,000,000,000.
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reesescups
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Subject:
DHS contracts ATK for 450,000,000 rounds of hollow point .40 caliber ammo.
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I love shooting hollow points at the range...
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-Espiritu-
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Subject:
DHS contracts ATK for 450,000,000 rounds of hollow point .40 caliber ammo.
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* buy 1/2 a billion rounds of ammo
+ instruct EPA to begin floating a possible ban on lead in ammunition
= ammunition prices doubling or tripling in the next year
Is it the desired outcome, or just a byproduct? I don't know.
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Mastara
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Subject:
DHS contracts ATK for 450,000,000 rounds of hollow point .40 caliber ammo.
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Yeah the lead ban is retarded in california. Supposedly its because of the condors. Lead ammo is banned for hunting/shooting in many areas. Mostly from the south to central california. It sucks but its not impossible to do. And I prefer copper bullets when hunting anyway. Works a little better IMO. Price difference when reloading isn't too big. A couple bucks more. Nothing unworkable if one just budgets for shooting.
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Cawlin
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Subject:
DHS contracts ATK for 450,000,000 rounds of hollow point .40 caliber ammo.
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_Gatto_ posted:
As for the type of ammo... Why train with anything other than what you will use in a real fight? To do so is foolish and invites death. Also, its very good idea to train on the exact items/equipment you use on duty when your actions are under scrutiny in an investigation or in court.
Yeah... um... there really is no reason to use hollow points for practice when you can mimic the powder load and recoil characteristics with a somewhat cheaper projectile like a jacketed round nose bullet with the same weight for considerably less money.
The only time it may be useful is in determining things like feed issues and it should not take all of the individual agents training with hollowpoints in their individually issued weapon to find out if their weapon system will or won't feed hollowpoints properly - that issue should be solved long before the weapon system is approved. Same goes for ballistics testing - which is not what you're doing when you're just Joe Agent, practicing for your quarterly qualification.
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Z-Elder
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Subject:
DHS contracts ATK for 450,000,000 rounds of hollow point .40 caliber ammo.
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reesescups posted:
I love shooting hollow points at the range...
This
and Cawlin's post.
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Rosaria
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Subject:
DHS contracts ATK for 450,000,000 rounds of hollow point .40 caliber ammo.
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NM, Cawlin has it covered.
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Koneg
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Subject:
DHS contracts ATK for 450,000,000 rounds of hollow point .40 caliber ammo.
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They won the contract because of their HP bullets. The contract itself however is for .40 ammunition in general, so I'm sure normal ball ammo practice loads are a part of it as well.
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_Gatto_
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Subject:
DHS contracts ATK for 450,000,000 rounds of hollow point .40 caliber ammo.
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Cawlin posted:
_Gatto_ posted:
As for the type of ammo... Why train with anything other than what you will use in a real fight? To do so is foolish and invites death. Also, its very good idea to train on the exact items/equipment you use on duty when your actions are under scrutiny in an investigation or in court.
Yeah... um... there really is no reason to use hollow points for practice when you can mimic the powder load and recoil characteristics with a somewhat cheaper projectile like a jacketed round nose bullet with the same weight for considerably less money.
The only time it may be useful is in determining things like feed issues and it should not take all of the individual agents training with hollowpoints in their individually issued weapon to find out if their weapon system will or won't feed hollowpoints properly - that issue should be solved long before the weapon system is approved. Same goes for ballistics testing - which is not what you're doing when you're just Joe Agent, practicing for your quarterly qualification.
Sorry, I kinda dropped off the thread for a while. I had to run out and hit the chiropractor, chow down at wing stop, get some ribs for tonight... Anyhoo, I am sure the cost benefit analysis, psychology, training benefits, results in the field, leagal issues, and more have all been hashed out by a number of smart folks and the resulting policy is what it is. Either way, I gets paid a nice chunk of change to have a fun training day shoting, socializing, and not worrying about getting killed by narco smugglers.
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Cawlin
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Subject:
DHS contracts ATK for 450,000,000 rounds of hollow point .40 caliber ammo.
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_Gatto_ posted:
Cawlin posted:
_Gatto_ posted:
As for the type of ammo... Why train with anything other than what you will use in a real fight? To do so is foolish and invites death. Also, its very good idea to train on the exact items/equipment you use on duty when your actions are under scrutiny in an investigation or in court.
Yeah... um... there really is no reason to use hollow points for practice when you can mimic the powder load and recoil characteristics with a somewhat cheaper projectile like a jacketed round nose bullet with the same weight for considerably less money.
The only time it may be useful is in determining things like feed issues and it should not take all of the individual agents training with hollowpoints in their individually issued weapon to find out if their weapon system will or won't feed hollowpoints properly - that issue should be solved long before the weapon system is approved. Same goes for ballistics testing - which is not what you're doing when you're just Joe Agent, practicing for your quarterly qualification.
Sorry, I kinda dropped off the thread for a while. I had to run out and hit the chiropractor, chow down at wing stop, get some ribs for tonight... Anyhoo, I am sure the cost benefit analysis, psychology, training benefits, results in the field, leagal issues, and more have all been hashed out by a number of smart folks and the resulting policy is what it is. Either way, I gets paid a nice chunk of change to have a fun training day shoting, socializing, and not worrying about getting killed by narco smugglers.
Yep, I wasn't so much trying to raise hell about costs and whatnot, we have bigger fish to fry as a nation than worrying about some ammo costs for agents.
Keep your head down dude!
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_Gatto_
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Subject:
DHS contracts ATK for 450,000,000 rounds of hollow point .40 caliber ammo.
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10-4 Enjoy the weekend.. I'm grilling a couple racks of ribs today.
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Cawlin
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Subject:
DHS contracts ATK for 450,000,000 rounds of hollow point .40 caliber ammo.
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_Gatto_ posted:
10-4 Enjoy the weekend.. I'm grilling a couple racks of ribs today.
Enjoy! 
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If ignorance were painful, half the posters here would be on morphine drips.
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Typhis1
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Subject:
DHS contracts ATK for 450,000,000 rounds of hollow point .40 caliber ammo.
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So the Dept of Human Services is really going to go after deadbeat dads and abusive parents? Bout time!
Wait...
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Elkad
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Subject:
DHS contracts ATK for 450,000,000 rounds of hollow point .40 caliber ammo.
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You do need to test-fire your carry ammo. A new nose shape can potentially cause feeding issues, weak cases could be torn by extractors, etc. Accuracy can also be impacted.
I won't carry a round that I haven't test fired a least a couple hundred rounds without any reliability issues.
And I shoot up the carry ammo (3 mags) a couple times a year and reload with fresh.
Gatto. How the hell do you make 70 rnds of ammo last 4 hours? I've burned through over 10,000 rounds of 7.62 in an afternoon (The Army paid for it of course)
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Mastara
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Subject:
DHS contracts ATK for 450,000,000 rounds of hollow point .40 caliber ammo.
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70 rounds an hour? Were you throwing the bullets down range?
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Koneg
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Subject:
DHS contracts ATK for 450,000,000 rounds of hollow point .40 caliber ammo.
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Elkad posted:
Gatto. How the hell do you make 70 rnds of ammo last 4 hours?
It's training. I suspect it's him and X number of his border agent buddies going through courses, being quizzed, lecture, Q&A time, waiting for the group(s) in front of you to clear the course, break down the weapon(s), clean the weapon(s), etc. He's not shooting for the entire 4 hours
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Elkad
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Subject:
DHS contracts ATK for 450,000,000 rounds of hollow point .40 caliber ammo.
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Got it. 3 hours and 53 minutes of waiting, 2 minutes of live fire, and 5 minutes to police up your brass and check your targets.
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Koneg
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Subject:
DHS contracts ATK for 450,000,000 rounds of hollow point .40 caliber ammo.
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Elkad posted:
Got it. 3 hours and 53 minutes of waiting, 2 minutes of live fire, and 5 minutes to police up your brass and check your targets.
Remember, it's teh gubmint - not exactly paragons of efficiency 
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_Gatto_
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Subject:
DHS contracts ATK for 450,000,000 rounds of hollow point .40 caliber ammo.
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Koneg posted:
Elkad posted:
Gatto. How the hell do you make 70 rnds of ammo last 4 hours?
It's training. I suspect it's him and X number of his border agent buddies going through courses, being quizzed, lecture, Q&A time, waiting for the group(s) in front of you to clear the course, break down the weapon(s), clean the weapon(s), etc. He's not shooting for the entire 4 hours
meet up at station, get issued 3-5 weapons systems depending on your taste in systems, get a unit and travel to range
get to range, download,get issued safety shit, ammo, sign in and take initial safety briefings
The live fire for the 40 is from varied ranges 1.5, 3, 7, 15, 25, yards.. We do a number of rands with forced magazine exchanges and emergency reloads to improve muscle memory, we fire with off hands and with one hand, standing kneeling and the like... Thats just the normal qualification course for your pistol. Its done in two halves with grading and target exchange inbetween.
at this point anyone with a second issued weapon or exotic systems like UMP can qual before moving to the M4 and shotty
You break, pisss, water up, load for the M4 section, do the standard briefings for your weapons before taking the range then with the M4 go from 50, to 25, to 15 yards with fforced and emergency reloads simulations, semi and automatic portions too. There is two grading portions of the course too.
Break again, then briefs, then take the shotty out... Crank off 4 rounds, emergency load one by hand into the port then fire it, its rgfaded too by grouping...
brass up, break, lunch,
rebrief and learn what the training event for the afternon is, do that at most one or two people at a time on teh range depending on whats being done... eg: you start from a sitting positions, shoot fromt eh vehicle door, exit, got to cover shoot, move to a point, use a shotty, its empty transition to 40, run to downed partner, use his M4, it malfunctinos, transition to 40, drag him to safety, using 40 to cover yourself, finish up with what4eedver weapon they have you use.. all the while you have knock down targets you have to hit to progress to the next phase...
clean all your weapons
travel to station and then turn shit in...
all in all, its pretty easy to burn off a 8 hour day
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ZartanAround
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Subject:
DHS contracts ATK for 450,000,000 rounds of hollow point .40 caliber ammo.
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the 40 is just a backup weapon though right?
hardly anyone uses govt std POS mp9s amirite?
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_Gatto_
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Subject:
DHS contracts ATK for 450,000,000 rounds of hollow point .40 caliber ammo.
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Your issue is the .40 and you have 3 - 5 mags on you and one in the weapon. Its your choice to carry a long arm most of the time, there are some assignments where you are mandated to carry... That being said, its best ot have it and not need it than need it and not have it. I uaually grab an M4 with 1.5 scope and three 30 round mags. my partner will either grab a shotty or a UMP. I'd prefer they take the UMP and 3 mags.
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ZartanAround
Title: Torpid Curmudgeon
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Subject:
DHS contracts ATK for 450,000,000 rounds of hollow point .40 caliber ammo.
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so as i alluded to...
the .40 is a backup, not a main weapon
and all this is a non-issue?
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what are nice chickens like you doing in a coop like this?
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Koneg
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Subject:
DHS contracts ATK for 450,000,000 rounds of hollow point .40 caliber ammo.
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ZartanAround posted:
so as i alluded to...
the .40 is a backup, not a main weapon
and all this is a non-issue?
Uh...
_Gatto_ posted:
Your issue is the .40
Hullo?
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Sezyrrith
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Subject:
DHS contracts ATK for 450,000,000 rounds of hollow point .40 caliber ammo.
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illmyrin posted:
You make a very good point! I was going to go for the supply buy up side effect and insider trading method rather than suggesting they are about to murder us all(almost 1,000,000,000 more bullets than would be needed to execute every US citizen).
Wait...
450 million - 350 million = 1 billion?
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ZartanAround
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Subject:
DHS contracts ATK for 450,000,000 rounds of hollow point .40 caliber ammo.
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Koneg posted:
ZartanAround posted:
so as i alluded to...
the .40 is a backup, not a main weapon
and all this is a non-issue?
Uh...
_Gatto_ posted:
Your issue is the .40
Hullo?
he says "it's your choice to carry a long arm".
why would that even be an option?
that should be the default.
when you bring a pistol to a rifle fight, caliber doesn't matter.
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what are nice chickens like you doing in a coop like this?
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_Gatto_
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Subject:
DHS contracts ATK for 450,000,000 rounds of hollow point .40 caliber ammo.
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ZartanAround posted:
Koneg posted:
ZartanAround posted:
so as i alluded to...
the .40 is a backup, not a main weapon
and all this is a non-issue?
Uh...
_Gatto_ posted:
Your issue is the .40
Hullo?
he says "it's your choice to carry a long arm".
why would that even be an option?
that should be the default.
when you bring a pistol to a rifle fight, caliber doesn't matter.
I agree. The long arm should be our main weapon. when we carry t, its considered the primary system but not all agents carry them. They can get in the way if you have to go hands on with an alien... Despite seeing a guy armed to the teeth, pleenty of them and of course the smugglers decide they want to fight. After about 3-5 hours of tracking a group in rough terrain at high temps... They weigh you down a little. Especially, if you are carrying all your extra ammo in your outter vest carrier.
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Desnoxvu
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Subject:
DHS contracts ATK for 450,000,000 rounds of hollow point .40 caliber ammo.
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The DHS shouldn't even be issued weapons. The DHS shouldn't even be an agency. They should just disband the DHS.
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Ron Paul 2012
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_Gatto_
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Subject:
DHS contracts ATK for 450,000,000 rounds of hollow point .40 caliber ammo.
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Desnoxvu posted:
The DHS shouldn't even be issued weapons. The DHS shouldn't even be an agency. They should just disband the DHS.
Does not matter to me... I'm pretty sure the USBP, Customs, ICE, Coast Guard, and more would not all cease to exist. if by chance my agency did go poof, I would go be a Forrest Ranger or find some other outdoorsy Fed LEO position.
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