-Mithan-
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So what draws you to Guild Wars 2?
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So what draws you to Guild Wars 2?
Everybody is pumped up for a sequel to what was at best, a mediocre first game (IMO).
So, what has you excited about it exactly? What makes this any different than all the "awesome videos and hype" that came out over the last few years for Vanguard, Warhammer Online, Aion, Rift, SWTOR and whatever else I happen to be forgetting.
Personally, I couldn't care less about the game. That doesn't mean I want it to fail, it just means that I am so jadded with MMO's that I no longer accept hype. An MMO has to PROVE it doesn't suck to me before I will jump on its bandwagon. Even then, I find they are so similar to WoW that I might as well just stay with WoW and forget about it. The ones that do change from WoW seem to think that back tracking to the days of Everquest are the only way to differentiate from WoW, tossing you into idiotic group only grindy leveling games that quickly drive me insane or to cancel.
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Elaok
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So what draws you to Guild Wars 2?
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the World vs World vs World is my main reason for being drawn to GW2
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Tai-Daishar_MT
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So what draws you to Guild Wars 2?
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The PvP MIGHT be decent and I am burnt out on everything else at the moment, that about sums it up. I thought GW sucked so I have very little expectations from GW2 meaning I have little to lose (I can almost always get the box price worth of fun from a game) and might just end up pleasantly surprised.
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GutterSludge
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I'll try it..
..when its on the 5.00 discount shelf..
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Ardenwolfe
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So what draws you to Guild Wars 2?
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Boredom. After I finish Skyrim, I'll be forced to return to Star Trek Online . . . Guild Wars 2 is the brightest star on the horizon not counting Diablo III. And if that comes out before Guild Wars 2, that'll take my limited time.
I wasn't impressed with the first game either, but they keep telling me Guild Wars 2 is a 'whole 'nother game' over and over again.
Guess I'll see.
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Diskent
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So what draws you to Guild Wars 2?
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Nothing. It looks like just another crappy MMO.
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Demorak
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So what draws you to Guild Wars 2?
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GW2 has most of what I've been wanting to see in an MMO, in one package.(On paper)
I enjoyed GW1 enough to give them a chance.
The developers are *true* gamers and not only a bunch of suits trying to make a buck off completely cloning other MMO's with a new skin.
No more days of 500 keybinds just to do a single fight.  *glares at SWTOR*
Guild Wars lore in general is solid. 
The ability for various play styles within a single class.
WvW of course!
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Ugh_Lancelot
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So what draws you to Guild Wars 2?
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Regarding GW2, I'm not drawn to it yet as it is entirely too soon to see how much of the pie-in-the-sky theorycraft makes it into the live game. While I do like some of the ideas being floated, I wonder at the base motivation and how said motivation will survive contact with reality.
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Groooovechampion
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So what draws you to Guild Wars 2?
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GW2 has many features and promises regarding PvP that resembles some of what made Daoc so great.
+ I also liked the choice of builds from GW1. I don't know if GW2 will have that, but basically in GW1, you had to make choices about which 8 abilities you could take from a pool of some-30 or 50 (Forgot how many). I like that because it was not like in WoW back then where for instance a mage could just pick all the nice-have abilities and be kickass thanks to having every mean of CC, getaways and short faceroll CDs.
~ In short, you had to pick specific skills. On top of that, every class had its use, as well as the debuffs. Not like what happened in WoW where things just deteriorate(sp) with each patch. That be said.
+ Also, PVP and PVE was somewhat split. From what I know, PVE did not influence PVP that much as for WoW.
+ Producers and such are giving us insight and sound certain with what they are doing. And they don't just sound like what hype-master Gaute was doing for Age of Conan.
+ GW1 imo had a nice engine. Wish Daoc could have evolved or been redone with such an engine; just to have a basic free-flowing handling and not the dated stiffy-ness.
+ Always enjoyed the level design. And the playable races look neat for GW2.
+ Certainly not "THE ULITMATE WOW" Killer people keep talking about
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Zero_Washu
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So what draws you to Guild Wars 2?
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the open world reminds me a lot of AC. How that holds up in release has yet to be seen, it could be another hallway monster but the videos don't seem to indicate that.
I lost my interest in the first game the time I saw about a dozen mobs tracking like a train after someone and then realizing I could not jump off a ledge that appeared to be about two feet high
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Isoke
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So what draws you to Guild Wars 2?
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I've been following GW2 for I think seven years now (wow, that long =P), and while I understand why there's a lot of hype around it currently because it's moved into pre-release mode, my interest was sparked back in the day when nobody much knew or cared about it.
I'm interested because I respect the developers' previous work, and I have always liked their game development philosophy.
Because I appreciate that ArenaNet was pretty fearless about trying some new approaches in GW1, and even if GW1 itself didn't appeal to me, I liked the willingness to innovate. They seem to be continuing on that same path of innovation, and I am willing to support that.
Because it's finally a game that is including PvP as an integral part of the gameworld from the ground up, not just as an add-on or 'second thought' feature.
Because I'm curious about how some of the game mechanics they plan will shake out (no strict tank/healer roles? We'll see if they can pull that off and make an interesting game).
I have other reasons for being interested, as well as some pretty significant concerns...plus I'm cynical after AoC/Warhammer/Aion. But I'm a gamer at heart so am up for giving these good folks at least a chance to capture my longer-term interest.
Stopping here because this thread shows signs of devolving into the same old ego-flexing flame war that 3-4 people invariably pollute most threads on these boards with these days. I don't believe in heavy-handed board moderation, but dear gods it's barely worth it to even read here any more, much less try to post. Hopefully this thread survives; it could be a nice conversation if the stalkers and obsessives leave it alone =P.
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GutterSludge
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So what draws you to Guild Wars 2?
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But then again, we are discussing the draw of GW on the WOW main board...
Did you really expect a fluid and in-depth GW discussion here?
Really?
Perhaps this might be a better venue:
http://vnboards.ign.com/guild_wars/c15820
Just saying..
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Ardenwolfe
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So what draws you to Guild Wars 2?
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Be sure to address that to Mithan since he's the OP. I'm sure he'll appreciate it.
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Ferrydust
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So what draws you to Guild Wars 2?
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I am not that excited about GW2 yet. I hope they make it a great game and listen to the testers.
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-Mithan-
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So what draws you to Guild Wars 2?
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I cleared out the diarria on this thread. Anybody who wants to continue with it will find their account banned.
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GutterSludge
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So what draws you to Guild Wars 2?
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Ardenwolfe posted:
Be sure to address that to Mithan since he's the OP. I'm sure he'll appreciate it.
I'm not saying it is an inappropriate topic, I'm saying for a fluid, in-depth discussion... there is a better place.
Honestly I like the thought of a pvp-central game...but free to play just turns me off completely.
I just don't see "fluff only" micro-transactions sustaining the game enough for continued development..which to me means you're going to get the game in its original form, and not much else will happen after that.
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Guttersludge
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njwCSUS posted:I'm homosexual, so really, its ongoing sexual attraction to my father, not my mother.
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Kriegprojekt
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So what draws you to Guild Wars 2?
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Colin Johanson. I worked briefly with him as a GM (he was lead GM) on a text based game Mythic put out called Dragon's Gate. Even then, he had some amazing ideas for that game which seemed to have moved to Guild Wars 2 (scenarios and a player driven world). I really respected his ideas as a player in Dragon's Gate too. All in all, what he did to that game really made my time enjoyable and think he can help pull it off in Guild Wars 2.
I also am looking for a PvP/RvR game. I think GW2 will do it differently, which might be a lot of fun.
Hes also a blast to party with!
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-Mithan-
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So what draws you to Guild Wars 2?
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GutterSludge posted:
Ardenwolfe posted:
Be sure to address that to Mithan since he's the OP. I'm sure he'll appreciate it.
I'm not saying it is an inappropriate topic, I'm saying for a fluid, in-depth discussion... there is a better place. Honestly I like the thought of a pvp-central game...but free to play just turns me off completely. I just don't see "fluff only" micro-transactions sustaining the game enough for continued development..which to me means you're going to get the game in its original form, and not much else will happen after that.
I am not interested in what the GW people think. Â I am interested in what the WoW people here think.
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-Peo-
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So what draws you to Guild Wars 2?
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The only thing that will draw me to GW2 is the fact that I am bored with everything else. Even then, initial box price will keep me away from a game I know I will not like. If it was absolutely free to try, I would try it. But I am 99% sure I will never play a PvPcentric game.
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With a lil f2p CoH.
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Ardenwolfe
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I'm probably the most carebear person on these boards, but I'll at least give it a shot if I can get into a open or closed beta. If nothing else, Peo, you should at least give the beta a go. Regardless, I'm probably most attracted to Guild Wars 2 because of the necromancer class. It'll allow me to play another minionmancer which is my favorite play-style.
But, after all the other disappointments, I'm going into this one with my eyes wide open. Guess we'll see in a few months.
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Pantherr
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So what draws you to Guild Wars 2?
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-Mithan- posted:
I cleared out the diarrhea on this thread. Anybody who wants to continue with it will find their account banned.
Will you start doing that for all the threads here? Please?
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-Peo-
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I doubt I will, I REALLY despise PvP.
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SWTOR, Maybe in a year.
Back to WoW for now.
With a lil f2p CoH.
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Pantherr
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So what draws you to Guild Wars 2?
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-Peo- posted:
I doubt I will, I REALLY despise PvP.
I'm a hard core PVP hater myself, Peo, and I enjoyed playing GW back when it first came out 4 or 5 years ago without ever once doing anything PVP. I am playing through the game again in anticipation of GW2 and having fun without anything PVP related.At character creation, you can choose to make a PVP toon or a RP/PVE toon.
Don't let the PVP aspect of it turn you away.To the best of my recollection from 5 years ago and going by my current experience with the game, PVP doesn't interfere with PVE in any way.
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-Mithan-
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So what draws you to Guild Wars 2?
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Pantherr posted:
-Mithan- posted:
I cleared out the diarrhea on this thread. Anybody who wants to continue with it will find their account banned.
Will you start doing that for all the threads here? Please?
We don't have the Mod coverage anymore.
Sorry.
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Conceited
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Mods can't be that hard to find 
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Pantherr
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So what draws you to Guild Wars 2?
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-Mithan- posted:
Pantherr posted:
-Mithan- posted:
I cleared out the diarrhea on this thread. Anybody who wants to continue with it will find their account banned.
Will you start doing that for all the threads here? Please?
We don't have the Mod coverage anymore.
Sorry.
Ahh, just the Admin's threads get Mod loving! <insert rants about favoritism and abuse of authority>
Don't ban me, bro! 
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Taloquin
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Conceited posted:
Mods can't be that hard to find
What, you want to Mod that regulars? This place is already a ghost town. You wanna make it worse?
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Eternal_Midnight
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I'm watching GW2 reasonably closely, it's the best option at the moment, but I'm also watching Dominus and Secret World, too, although they are further out.
I remain deeply skeptical, until I can actually try it out myself. Deliberately avoiding the marketing being put out, since the game is still months from release. I can't get into games years in advance, and I've never understood why they building things up so much so far in advance.
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Pantherr
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Taloquin posted:
Conceited posted:
Mods can't be that hard to find
What, you want to Mod that regulars? This place is already a ghost town. You wanna make it worse?
Perhaps it wouldn't be as much of a ghost town if the handful of trolls that infest the board were brought under control. Just a guess. 
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Eternal_Midnight
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Pantherr posted:
Perhaps it wouldn't be as much of a ghost town if the handful of trolls that infest the board were brought under control. Just a guess.
Nonsense. Have you ever posted on an internet forum before?
It's a ghost town because you can only get here if you know it exists. Go ahead, try and find VNboards on IGN proper.
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GutterSludge
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It pops right up if you Google it....
But I do concede, you have to KNOW to Google it
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Guttersludge
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NeMeFieD said:"Yea I Ucmed for 12 days straight.."
njwCSUS posted:I'm homosexual, so really, its ongoing sexual attraction to my father, not my mother.
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Pantherr
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Eternal_Midnight posted:
Pantherr posted:
Perhaps it wouldn't be as much of a ghost town if the handful of trolls that infest the board were brought under control. Just a guess.
Nonsense. Have you ever posted on an internet forum before?
It's a ghost town because you can only get here if you know it exists. Go ahead, try and find VNboards on IGN proper.
You do have a point about it being hard to find for newcomers but I was referring to the population that used to be here and have left. But this is getting off topic again so I will stop here. 
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Elaok
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-Peo- posted:
I doubt I will, I REALLY despise PvP.
its not 100% focused on PvP at end game you could read up on how they do quests/dynamic Events and dungeons
i think this will be a good game for PvE and roleplay people
this is a level 15 boss event Shadow Behemoth remember it is still beta though and the person playing is pretty bad and clicking abilities
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Zero_Washu
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-Peo- posted:
I doubt I will, I REALLY despise PvP.
Same here. As long as there is equality for any play style I will be fine with the game. If there off limit crafting resources, off limit meaning I have to PvP to have them, that I need to use then I am out. I play games to have fun, not to have my gaming decided by no lifers
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SpiritHex
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The idea of playing GW2 purely for PVP for years and not having progressed at all in power after that period of time doesn't appeal to me personally. This was definitely done to make GW2 a game that has more appeal for pro gaming tournaments.
Most people think they don't care about this; I'm predicting 90% of PVPers will get bored out of their mind PVPing for months/years for zero rewards however.
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Ugh_Lancelot
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SpiritHex posted:
The idea of playing GW2 purely for PVP for years and not having progressed at all in power after that period of time doesn't appeal to me personally. This was definitely done to make GW2 a game that has more appeal for pro gaming tournaments.
Most people think they don't care about this; I'm predicting 90% of PVPers will get bored out of their mind PVPing for months/years for zero rewards however.
I suppose that depends on what "zero rewards" means to players. Players that just want to "pwn nubs" will likely be disappointed in a system that doesn't build power over time, which is a good thing if your target demographic is players that favor evenly matched raw capabilities. Then again, it's entirely possible that folks that like to "pwn nubs" might find themselves enthralled by a system that is both balanced and actually fun. All depends on ArenaNet's execution and design decisions.
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Quazimortal
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So what draws you to Guild Wars 2?
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SpiritHex posted:
The idea of playing GW2 purely for PVP for years and not having progressed at all in power after that period of time doesn't appeal to me personally. This was definitely done to make GW2 a game that has more appeal for pro gaming tournaments.
Most people think they don't care about this; I'm predicting 90% of PVPers will get bored out of their mind PVPing for months/years for zero rewards however.
This post screams WoW PvPer to me. This game is going to require actual skill to kill people, not a gear grind. If you want to play a game where you can outgear someone and roll over them without having any actual skill then you should probably stick with WoW.
Edit: I suppose that makes sense though seeing as this is the WoW forums.  For some reason I thought I was on the GW forum.
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SpiritHex
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Quazimortal posted:
SpiritHex posted:
The idea of playing GW2 purely for PVP for years and not having progressed at all in power after that period of time doesn't appeal to me personally. This was definitely done to make GW2 a game that has more appeal for pro gaming tournaments.
Most people think they don't care about this; I'm predicting 90% of PVPers will get bored out of their mind PVPing for months/years for zero rewards however.
This post screams WoW PvPer to me. This game is going to require actual skill to kill people, not a gear grind. If you want to play a game where you can outgear someone and roll over them without having any actual skill then you should probably stick with WoW.
Edit: I suppose that makes sense though seeing as this is the WoW forums. For some reason I thought I was on the GW forum.
Actually the PVP rewards I'm used to are 'Realm Ranks' from daoc. But they were a tad overpowered. WoW's pvp rewards are nice, but they're only seasonal. Daoc PVP rewards were fully permanent, which was totally kick-ass.
MMOS have always been about skills/gear, not about skills exclusively. MMOS aren't FPS. They're not about split second reflexes, like what is required in COD3 for example. Hell, COD3 even has pvp like rewards nowadays.
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Ardenwolfe
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Anyway, Guild Wars 2 attempts to follow the skill over gear model. How well that'll work could be interesting to watch. But, I do believe that GW2 will interest a lot of former DAoC fans.
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So what draws you to Guild Wars 2?
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Ardenwolfe posted:
Anyway, Guild Wars 2 attempts to follow the skill over gear model. How well that'll work could be interesting to watch. But, I do believe that GW2 will interest a lot of former DAoC fans.
If it works it will be because there is no monthly cost. Wow dumbed down because the market demanded it. Gw2 doesn't really have that issue of retaining customers so they can do if fervent things.
It's like diablo 3 Inferno mode which they say is going to be insane hard and take a long time to gear up in and eventually beat.
With no sub cost, they don't care if normal people are not good enough to finish that mode and quit. They already payed. It's different with memos....and the free to play model can dumb it down more. Gw2 doesn't use the typical f2play model though.
Anyways, we will see if it is actually skill in the end.
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That's valid. Again, we'll see if it pans out and if ArenaNet keeps their word. It'll be a nice change if just one of these MMOs could hold my attention for more than a month or two. But, again, we'll see.
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SpiritHex posted:
MMOS have always been about skills/gear, not about skills exclusively.
Blahaaaaa. Just had to pop by and laugh at this statement.
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So what draws you to Guild Wars 2?
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Zero_Washu posted:
-Peo- posted:
I doubt I will, I REALLY despise PvP.
Same here. As long as there is equality for any play style I will be fine with the game. If there off limit crafting resources, off limit meaning I have to PvP to have them, that I need to use then I am out. I play games to have fun, not to have my gaming decided by no lifers
I feel the same way about having to PVE for crafting items.
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GutterSludge posted:
SpiritHex posted:
MMOS have always been about skills/gear, not about skills exclusively.
Blahaaaaa. Just had to pop by and laugh at this statement.
2 random examples: Daoc high end PVP and Wow 2.2k+ arenas. Both required some amount of skills, at least for those interested in winning. If you didn't time abilities right or use them wisely, you wouldn't win either.
Or playing a really good healer/great tank for example, both of which did require skills in WoW.
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I think one of the biggest draws of GW2 right now is the fact that SWTOR was a little bit of a let down and too WoW-like. Interest in WoW is slowly declining, which led to people leaving to check out SWTOR. Now that people realize it's not the next greatest "4-5 year" game, people are looking for the next biggest release. That is GW2.
I liked GW, but as a MMO player, it didn't feel like a MMO and it really wasn't. It was a lobby town with zones that you can do some quests in.
What really impressed me about the game was the engine. It looked good, was very smooth and fast. The game was literally an .EXE and a data file, not tons of .dlls and other stuff. It was impressively tight code. Combat was good and it was interesting how you could mix classes. I think I remember reading that some of the dev team were "demoscene" coders and those guys know how to write some tight code.
If this continues with GW2 and they make it more persistent and "MMO", I think it will be worth a look for me.
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GutterSludge posted:
Blahaaaaa. Just had to pop by and laugh at this statement.
I'm curious as to why this amuses you? In most of the MMOs I've played, they required you to have have skill as well as proper gear. In fact, in many, if you had great skill, you could overcome an opponent who was better geared yet poorly skilled.
Only recently, especially with World of Warcraft, has that been tilted more toward gear than skill due to reasons that Mithan hinted in his last reply. Guild Wars 2 states it wishes to bring this ratio back toward skill where many PvP players also wish it to return.
This, apparently, includes PvE where a skilled player could overpower a much higher-level mob because they used their dodging and movement abilities to avoid taking massive damage or any damage at all. We've seen this demonstrated in various videos.
So, I believe Spirit makes a valid point with his statement. Perhaps, you need to clarify why you feel the need to mock it when it appears absolutely true.
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I laughed because this statement, "MMOS have always been about skills/gear, not about skills exclusively." was obviously posted by someone who never played AC(or a probably half a dozen other mmo's).
If you require more explanation than that, then I'm going to laugh at you as well.
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I'm interested in GW2 because it's the first "mainstream" MMORPG (aka a product made by a big company with money to make a proper engine and proper graphics, and not some failure game made by two noobs in their garage) which seems to want to get away from the WoW clone infestation that plagues the MMORPG genre since 2004. A game that is not gear centric, where the holy trinity is broken apart, which offers quite nice graphics (according to the videos) and a big world to explore with "dynamic" events instead of static quests? Hell, sure I'm gonna keep an eye on it!
I remain skeptical and cautious though, and I don't give in to the hype - I'm waiting to see the game myself before saying that it's the best thing since WoW. All MMORPG veterans know that most of the time, when it seems too good to be true, well... it ends not being that good. For instance, see what happened with Rift... the hyped "dynamic events" were just another form of mob spawn, and didn't change the world at all. We will know soon enough now anyway, I can't see them keeping the NDA up once the people who will pre-order the 10 all get their beta event access, it will be impossible to maintain.
PS for Peo: GW2 has just as much PvE gameplay than it has PvP. It's not a pure PvP game at all. And PvE will also be more skill centric than gear centric. Actually, this concept reminds me AC1 a lot.
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Liquid741
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this section is completely appropriate...on the GW2 boards you get a complete biased opinion, since most are in DAOC withdrawl thinking that GW2 is going to be DAOC2 for some reason, and here you have a lot of posters that just come and read the random dumpster fires of WoW, hoping for something special.
Ill be trying GW2, hoping for some type of game that i can play forever..but i know that the odds are against it. the PVP is the aspect that gives me hope, and i honestly hope they do it well...free to play is another aspect that i enjoy. since money isnt really a issue, if i love the game then i can just throw money at it...if not then oh well, goes into the pile of crap we set aside for Goodwill.
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GutterSludge posted:
I laughed because this statement, "MMOS have always been about skills/gear, not about skills exclusively." was obviously posted by someone who never played AC(or a probably half a dozen other mmo's).
If you require more explanation than that, then I'm going to laugh at you as well.
Are you saying that in AC and those half a dozen other MMO's you mentioned, you could PVP without any gear at all and still win against fully geared opponents? And I'm not referring to grey ganking. That, in my opinion, is not PVP. That is just griefing.
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Ardenwolfe
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GutterSludge posted:
I laughed because this statement, "MMOS have always been about skills/gear, not about skills exclusively." was obviously posted by someone who never played AC(or a probably half a dozen other mmo's).
If you require more explanation than that, then I'm going to laugh at you as well.
Again, you make no sense unless you're saying you played and fought against other players without any gear. What Spirit says is correct in context. If it's the amount between the two that amuses you, I think you could state so in a better fashion. If you lack the ability to do so, which I believe may be the case, then your previous opinion would make sense.
Even if a game is all about skill, the gear and equipment still modifies the outcome in a certain percentage. For example, World of Warcraft leans more toward gear. In AC, perhaps more toward skill. Guild Wars 2 aims more toward skill. But, in all cases, gear does come into play.
To say any of these games uses or will use none of the ratio between the two is silly and just outright wrong. Skill would only come into play exclusively in you're fighting without any equipment at all. Even Guild Wars 2 isn't making this claim.
I understand that the ratio toward skill in the World versus World is what is also attracting many PvPers.
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Pantherr posted:
GutterSludge posted:
I laughed because this statement, "MMOS have always been about skills/gear, not about skills exclusively." was obviously posted by someone who never played AC(or a probably half a dozen other mmo's).
If you require more explanation than that, then I'm going to laugh at you as well.
Are you saying that in AC and those half a dozen other MMO's you mentioned, you could PVP without any gear at all and still win against fully geared opponents? And I'm not referring to grey ganking. That, in my opinion, is not PVP. That is just griefing.
In AC one could definately do this...especially in a mage vs mage fight, however many a foe has fallen to someone in a baned/protted ROBE, and yes, even naked.
Also remember, that if what you call "gear" is equally attainable to every single player, then it becomes a null part of the equation. (or gear/skill "ratio")
What really proves my point is for a level 150 to be able to destroy a level 275, because the guy driving the 150 actually knows what he is doing.(because again, level becomes null in the equation when 95% of your attribs, stats, etc are full blast by 150...)
Gear, didn't matter. Level, didn't matter.
Skill mattered. Positioning mattered, because you couldn't just run through your opponents. Movement mattered.(to actually physically dodge attacks, no standing still, ever)
This was also required when fighting PVE targets as well....
Yup. I laughed at his statement...as it is blatantly false.
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Guttersludge
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Ardenwolfe
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GutterSludge posted:
Also remember, that if what you call "gear" is equally attainable to every single player, then it becomes a null part of the equation. (or gear/skill "ratio")
Again, you make no sense. Using this logical extreme, one could say that this is true for all MMOs since gear is 'attainable' for all players should they do what's required to gain it (i.e. raid, farm, etc.). Trying to nullify such a thing is ridiculous based on such an extreme conclusion. In other words, even if a player was completely naked and attacked someone higher level, geared, yet less skilled, the ratio of armor and modified stat bonuses would affect how long and how hard it would be to kill said, and geared opponent, even if the naked opponent won.
You cannot 'nullify' this aspect because it goes against your opinion or argument. Sorry.
Since Guild Wars 2 increases your level and abilities to the max level, in World versus World, this could be a valid point later. But, until we see it in action, I would hesitate to argue that point.
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GutterSludge posted:
Also remember, that if what you call "gear" is equally attainable to every single player, then it becomes a null part of the equation. (or gear/skill "ratio")
Following this logic, WoW PVP is purely skill based, since the gear is equally attainable by every single player and therefore becomes a null part of the equation.
Guttersludge posted:
What really proves my point is for a level 150 to be able to destroy a level 275, because the guy driving the 150 actually knows what he is doing.(because again, level becomes null in the equation when 95% of your attribs, stats, etc are full blast by 150...)
Gear, didn't matter. Level, didn't matter.
Unless a naked level 1 character can defeat a fully geared, max level character, level and gear do play some part in PVP. Ballad of the Noob doesn't count. :P The level and gear may not be the most important part of the scenario but it does matter to some degree.
I can kind of see where you are coming from, skill may be able to give you an edge over a slightly better geared or higher level character, but to deny that level or gear matter at all is a bit extreme.
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So I can login AC right now, and equip a brand new toon with the same armor if not better then people are wearing at 150....
Fully tinkered, majors, the works..
Your buddy want to start a new char also?
Break out the mules, and gear him up instantly as well....No restriction on trades...no "bop" items.
Can you login to WOW and do that?
Hell no you cannot. Therefore, the GEAR didn't matter in AC.
Get it?
Can you kill people twice, three times your level in WOW?
Hell no you cannot. It happens ALL THE TIME in AC...Therefore, Level AND GEAR don't matter...
Get it?
Can you kill someone twice, three times your level while NAKED in WoW?
As a melee char in AC, it was a completely normal occurrence to kill mages while naked, and on occasion melees as well. Armor only helped you when you actually got hit(and then only if the attack was melee)..if you evaded all of your opponents attacks, it just drained your stamina, based on how heavy your armor and the size of your shield were. (of course being right next to a mage as a melee char required serious movement capabilities...but if you could dodge spells at point blank range it went well)
Everything you are trying to say was "necessary" simply wasn't.
When things don't matter, they just don't effing matter. Comparing "skill" to "gear" with a 'ratio' for AC is in fact comparing something to nothing.
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Guttersludge
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NeMeFieD said:"Yea I Ucmed for 12 days straight.."
njwCSUS posted:I'm homosexual, so really, its ongoing sexual attraction to my father, not my mother.
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No Gutter. I don't get it. I am simply unable to force myself to believe that a naked level 1 could win against a fully geared, max level character. Skill may indeed matter a lot more in AC then it does in WoW. I wouldn't know because I never played AC. But for you to continue to insist that gear and level are completely irrelevant makes you look a tad silly.
I don't foresee you toning down your fanatical "skill is the ONLY thing that matters in AC" stance so I will just gracefully bow out of this discussion.
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Pantherr posted:
I will just gracefully bow out of this discussion, I don't get it because I never played AC.
I understand. WOW was probably your first MMO, and you just don't know any better.
I'll leave you to ask around about AC..Don't take my word for it...Just ask around.
I'll be gracious when I accept your apology.
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Guttersludge
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NeMeFieD said:"Yea I Ucmed for 12 days straight.."
njwCSUS posted:I'm homosexual, so really, its ongoing sexual attraction to my father, not my mother.
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GutterSludge posted:
Pantherr posted:
I will just gracefully bow out of this discussion, I don't get it because I never played AC.
I understand. WOW was probably your first MMO, and you just don't know any better.
I'll leave you to ask around about AC..Don't take my word for it...Just ask around.
I'll be gracious when I accept your apology.
And there comes the snide, condescending Gutter we all know and despise. 
It's really sad when you have to resort to creative editing in an effort to twist my words and try to make it seem like I said something I didn't. You really should consider a career in politics or sensationalism reporting. I hear those "skills" are quite useful there.
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I accept your apology.
Shoot me a line anytime you feel like you need to further your education, I don't mind teaching...
Really, I don't.
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Guttersludge
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njwCSUS posted:I'm homosexual, so really, its ongoing sexual attraction to my father, not my mother.
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Looks like Mithan forgot one troll in his cleanup of this thread...
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WoW: Both accounts canceled for now.
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The_Korrigan posted:
Looks like Mithan forgot one troll in his cleanup of this thread...
Indeed.
Look like you need to return to grade school and brush up on your reading comprehension, Gutter, because I never extended an apology and you claiming to accept an apology that was never extended makes you look like a moron.
However, I see you graduated at the top of your class in Snide school. Well done!
By the way, this is a perfect example of the type of crap I was referring to a few days ago that has contributed greatly to the decline of this board. It is virtually impossible to have a rational discussion about anything here without certain people always falling back on the snide, insulting and condescending tactics they are so well known for.
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The_Korrigan posted:
Looks like Mithan forgot one troll in his cleanup of this thread...
Learn to ignore them. Then they end up talking to themselves. Since it is all about their egos and their need to feel like they are owning everyone, just let them jerk themselves off and respond to the real posters. This thread was pretty good once the real troll got removed, ignoring the other troll, and this thread actually has some good conversation. What the board should be like.
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Oh where to begin . .
1.) Any comparisons between the leveling and gear acquisition systems in WoW and AC is difficult at best. Comparing a level 150 character and 275 character in AC and saying it is proof that "skill" allows the lower to kill the higher is approximately the same as saying a lvl 85 in WoW, with ilevel 359, can kill an ilevel 391. Yes, it can and does happen. However, the odds are still significantly stacked in the higher (gear/level) characters favor. (Since it might of been a while since some people have actually played AC, there are these things at high levels called Augmentations and Luminescence that add great strength to high level characters and operate independent of the traditional leveling system).
However, comparing a lvl 84 character to a lvl 85 character at ilevel 359 in WoW is approximately equal to comparing a lvl 75 in AC to a lvl 150 in AC. Sure, the lower can still kill the higher but frankly the higher must be either completely inept or not even trying; No amount of "skill" on the part of the lower level toon will compensate for the stat imbalance assuming the higher (level/gear) opponent is even semi competent.
2.) Very low level toons from either game are not going to kill anything but other low level toons. In regards to AC, any theoretical arguement about buffs, tinked armor, weapons and the like ignores the fact that those characters still will not make the "skill checks" to land any spells or hits on any medium to high level toons.
3.) Good PvP gear in WoW is easier to acquire (and keep!) than good PvP gear on ACDT. In WoW, nearly the best stuff can be gained just over a course of time, even if one were to lose 9/10 of their battleground/arena fights. Decent stuff is earned even quicker and does not even require a single win (just a lot of time). Good players on good teams gear up even quicker. Top tier suits of equipment on DT take a much longer time to acquire unless you have connection($), due to the random nature of loot from top tier loot chests and monsters. A decent suit of at least major cantrips in AC can usually be acquired in about as much time as starter PvP gear can be acquired in WoW, again depending on friends/connections since loot in AC is generally giveable and nonbinding. Then one has to make sure they do not die so much as to end up losing said armor.
4.) The "best" players in either game have the top tier gear, skill and levels/character advancement. In either AC or WoW, the player that can kill the most other players will have all of these things. Maybe others will be a sliver better in one catagory or another, but that player will always be looking to improve all three of these areas whenever possible and will at least meet (level cap/alternate advancement) or exceed (gear/skill) the vast majority of other players. The edge in gear will help over come other similiarly skilled players and the edge in skill will overcome other similiarly geared players.
5.) Friends and guildmates matter MUCH more in AC than in WoW. One does not even need to be in a guild to get to the top of the PvP ladder in WoW, though it can help to be guildmates with your rated arena/battleground teammates. On DT, if you are not in a good guild you will be fodder for all of the other players who are in strong guilds.
6.) Players tend to play with less "skill" in WoW than players on ACDT, but both games require a honed skill set. This is mostly due to the fact dying in WoW PvP has almost no real penalty where in AC you can potentially permanently lose your good equipment or at the least lose items of some value. This does NOT however change the fact that to play either game at maximum potential one requires a much higher than average skill set than the common player.
7.) Comparing "1v1" fights as the benchmark for PvP in either game is stupid. All fights worth any significance (rankings, points, ect) in WoW take place in at least small teams if not full sized battlegrounds. Fights involving important hunting areas or luminescence areas on DT usually involve more than a 1v1 fight, and while odds can definitely be overcome in AC it sure as hell helps to have numbers on your side.
8.) Some people on these message boards are never wrong, no matter what. Even if they post something that is in complete contradiction to a previous statement or even if they switch sides in an arguement, they are still in the right any and all of those times
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Ardenwolfe
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Regardless, let's get the thread back on track. Another reason why I see a draw toward the game is that the events and heroics from your first Guild Wars character 'transfer' to Guild Wars 2 in the form of the Hall of Monuments. Seen more than a few players try to rush these achievements before the newer game comes out.
Here's a guide from another player that makes note of it:
http://dragonseason.com/Home/tabid/55/EntryId/43/How-to-Easily-collect-30-points-in-Hall-of-Monuments.aspx
It would be rather cool to see your avatar in the form of a statue outside of Stormwind, for example, if there was ever a World of Warcraft 2. It's a clever marketing ploy, if nothing else, to get players to buy the older expansion packs before they become obsolete.
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NukeMage
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Honestly what is drawing me to check out GW2 is the hype surrounding it, and I found that their trailers and interviews about the game itself seem to have gone very well. I am looking for something just a bit different than what is currently out there, and while I do not think I will ever get into another game and play it off and on for years like I have done with AC and WoW I think GW2 will at the least be playable for a couple of months.
I am approaching it as if it were a typical console or pc game; if i gain nearly as much enjoyment and playtime out of it as, let's say, Skyrim then I will be more than happy with my purchase.
If I play it for a few days and then uninstall, well it would suck but it would not mean the end of the world to me.
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Pantherr
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Thanks for the link Arden. I am definitely going to put that information to good use.I am currently re familiarizing myself with GW, playing through the first 3 or 4 campaigns, while waiting for GW2 to come out.
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SpiritHex
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GutterSludge posted:
Yup. I laughed at his statement...as it is blatantly false.
'MMOS have always been about skills/gear, not about skills exclusively': The keyword you missed here is "exclusively". Exclusively implies excluding something, which does not apply here. In this case, a skilled player must still take their gear and/or the other player's gear into consideration when facing another skilled player, *regardless* of how skilled they are. Even if they're playing naked/no gear on in Asheron's Call.
Let's say for the sake of argument that you have 2 perfectly, equally skilled players with mismatched gear (one with inferior gear). Well, the geared player would win most fights since MMOs are about skills/gear and not about skills exclusively. I rest my case tho, cuz this argument is getting annoying to read about lol.
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GutterSludge
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The word you missed was "always"..
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Don't even waste your time, Spirit. As Nukemage so aptly put it, "some people on these message boards are never wrong, no matter what", and there is absolutely no point in trying to have a discussion with one of them.
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The_Korrigan
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So what draws you to Guild Wars 2?
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Even in AC1, the "geared" character will have more health, more mana, and also more resistances. Therefore the "geared" character has an advantage, just like in any other MMORPG.
Same for GW2. All the info we got says that the game will not be "gear centric", but gear will still have its importance. There are stats on every piece of gear in GW2, therefore it WILL have an influence on both PvE and PvP.
Some people seem to think GW2 will be a sort of nirvana where you can fight a fully geared max level character with a naked level 1 and have a chance to win. For those, the reality check will be harsh.
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Ardenwolfe
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Very harsh for some, no doubt.
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Eternal_Midnight
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Indeed. I kind of laugh when people talk about AC1 and say that gear and level didn't matter. Character level might not have mattered on it's own, but skill checks mattered a great deal. Doesn't matter how good you are at PvP if you can't even hit the guy because his melee D was maxxed and your sword skill wasn't. And a comparison between a level 150 and a 275 is flawed, because both of them have already maxxed the relevent skills. Take a level 25 up against that level 150 (same character level spread as to the 275) and see what happens, then come back here and tell us that level and gear don't matter.
I'm not sure what kind of game people are expecting if gear doesn't matter. How would that game even work, if it ever exists? Games are really boring when you can't get cool stuff that you can use to kill people with.
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Oh you COULD do it, all the gear you get would have no stat bonuses or stat bonuses would not raise damage or defense. Basically, the game would be a boring MMO or a bad FPS with quests.
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GutterSludge
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So what draws you to Guild Wars 2?
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Damn, we have a half dozen incompetent readers in the mix...
Where to start...
A level one(5) in AC can be equipped with the same gear as a level 150...this is a FACT.
A level 150 can defeat a level 275 if the 150 posses greater skill. Also a FACT.
I have never once stated that a level one could kill anything, or anyone in AC.
To state that this must be true for skill to be the only determinate in the game is complete fallacy. It is no surprise so many jumped on that bandwagon!!
Sure there is some skill to gear "ratio"..it looks something like this....(skill/gear)= (1000000000/0.00000001), which leaves you pretty much with the number you started with for skill in the first place.IE gear means nothing.
Don't make me laugh about the extra 15 health you obtain from 150-275 as being significant. It isn't. Same goes for resistances.
Skill to level ratio...
(skill/yourlevelx1)= (100000000/0.000000001)
(skill/yourlevelx2)= (100000000/0.0000001)
(skill/yourlevelx3)= (100000000/0.0001)
Level means nothing..If you want to insist on comparing a level 1 to a level 275, and that is the only way you can even START to argue against this, then I'll go ahead laugh at you ahead of time.
The bottom line is that AC was a skill based game.. NOT a gear based system like WOW. If you compare what gear means in WOW to what it meant in AC, again, you are comparing something to nothing. If you compare what level means in WOW to what it means in AC, again something to nothing.
Lie to yourselves all you want. I am enjoying reading all of your failed arguments.
"MMOS have always been about skills/gear, not about skills exclusively"
This statement is still blatantly false.
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GutterSludge posted:
FAP FAP FAP
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Pantherr
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-Peo- posted:
GutterSludge posted:
FAP FAP FAP
Indeed. <points to sig>
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Eternal_Midnight
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GutterSludge posted:
Damn, we have a half dozen incompetent readers in the mix...
Where to start...
A level one(5) in AC can be equipped with the same gear as a level 150...this is a FACT.
A level 150 can defeat a level 275 if the 150 posses greater skill. Also a FACT.
1) Have you played AC1 recently? Most gear that a level 150 would use has skill checks, either melee defense, magic defense, or weapon / magic skill. So no, a level 1 most certainly wouldn't be able to wear the same gear as a level 150. The only way this wouldn't be true is if a HIGHLY SKILLED tinkerer removed the level checks. Either way, a level 1 wouldn't have access to it.
2) Your second point is true, but also irrelevent. Character level doesn't matter in AC1, but the number next to individual skills matters a great deal. At level 150, a character will have already maxxed the relevent combat skills, so they are actually competing on an EVEN LEVEL with the 275. But if the difference between attack skill and defense skill is more than 30 points or so (reasonably around 15) then you can't even HIT the person, let alone kill them.
So what exactly is your point here?
That if combat skills are roughly equal, someone in AC1 can compete? Great insight.
That character level doesn't matter? Another great point. The year 1999 wants it's insights back.
It's neat the way you glaze over realities to make your point, though.
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Eternal_Midnight posted:
So what exactly is your point here?
I thought we had already established the answer to this question. He is right, anyone who disagrees with him is wrong, and he feels it is his calling in life to educate us poor, dumb mortals with his unmatched brilliance.
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Eternal_Midnight posted:
Have you played AC1 recently? Most gear that a level 150 would use has skill checks, either melee defense, magic defense, or weapon / magic skill.
The skill checks are definitely not even something remotely "recent". Things like "swords requiring 200+ sword skill to activate" exist for ages in AC1. Very old quest rewards like Atlan weapons already have those restrictions.
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The_Korrigan posted:
Eternal_Midnight posted:
Have you played AC1 recently? Most gear that a level 150 would use has skill checks, either melee defense, magic defense, or weapon / magic skill.
The skill checks are definitely not even something remotely "recent". Things like "swords requiring 200+ sword skill to activate" exist for ages in AC1. Very old quest rewards like Atlan weapons already have those restrictions.
Except now they are all based on base skill, not buffed skills.
The best weapons require 400+ base weapon skill. No level 1 could have that!
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In what has become a rather dismal and uninspiring gaming landscape, GW2 is one of the very few bright points holding potential. I hope it delivers.
Bottom line, Carebear PvP'rs don't like level playing fields. Real PvP'rs in real PvP games get the best rewards of all - fantastic fights.
But Carebear PvP'rs don't want and don't like fights. They want and like 'Kill Switches'. Unfortunately, the vast majority of the gaming market's customers, can't stand such stupidity (eta: and this is all too relevant to VN and its demise as well - pandering to the Carebear PvP'rs juveniles has killed you too, just like it has killed just about every game that panders to them - there are nowhere near enough psychopaths on the Planet, to pay the bills or attract others as customers, and there is no escaping that reality).
The 'original' DAoC players, will probably love GW2 (and fair to say, the vast majority of PvE'rs, will surprise themselves and love real PvP too, which they did in early DAoC, before all the overpowered nonsense kicked in - I introduced many 'PvE only' Guildies to RvR in DAoC, and they had an absolute blast).
The Carebear PvP'rs will hate it, just like they hated the original Guild Wars, because they simply couldn't cope with people that can fight back. It really was hilarious watching these Carebear PvP'rs screaming in disbelief and anguish, with all their truly unskilled selves laid bare for all to see, just before they exited that game stage left at a rate of knots, protesting to the World that it sucked, and was full of 'noobs'. Noobs that convincingly and consistently kicked their butts and rubbed their faces in it.
I tell you this PvE'rs, get involved, get stuck in, and laugh at the fools as they flail around incompetently. You will indeed have a blast.
I can't wait for the rerun.
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1. Auto grouping in open world, borrowed from Rift.
2. F2P
3. PvP with level balancing effect.
4. F2P
5. Crafting level retention if you switch trades.
6. F2P
7. Sounds like it will be released with a cross server LFG finder.
8. F2P
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