Author Topic: Please don't kill this technology gas and oil companies...
imaloon1 
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Subject: Please don't kill this technology gas and oil companies...
I would still like to think we can solve actual problems in America.

 

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Fist_de_Yuma 
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Subject: Please don't kill this technology gas and oil companies...
Why do you think they would do that? Aaaa, I get it; you get your history from Hollywood. Explains a lot about you.

Question? Even if this works so well that we need no power plants when the sun shines; what do we do after it stops shining? You do understand that we cannot story it?

 

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RHWarrior 
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Subject: Please don't kill this technology gas and oil companies...
Fist_de_Yuma posted:
Why do you think they would do that? Aaaa, I see it clearly now.
This is how I relate to most new ideas:




 

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Fist_de_Yuma 
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Subject: Please don't kill this technology gas and oil companies...
Funny picture. I guess you think that by asking the questions that have to be asked means I'm against new technology. Rather stupid of you but not unexpected from a liberal. Rather than making up stupid stuff show about you try to answer my question?

Seems to me that the real people against solving our energy problems are Obama and his friends. (With the support mindless followers.) It sure would dry up the government tit for them. Of course if we found something tomorrow and replaced everything in a year the liberals would be screaming about how we need to support the old technology to save jobs.

 

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tenkly 
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Subject: Please don't kill this technology gas and oil companies...
Seems to work quite well in my neck of the woods, fisty fist.

http://www.heronwood.info/index.html

 

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Lyndrek 
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Subject: Please don't kill this technology gas and oil companies...
Fist_de_Yuma posted:
Why do you think they would do that? Aaaa, I get it; you get your history from Hollywood. Explains a lot about you.

Question? Even if this works so well that we need no power plants when the sun shines; what do we do after it stops shining? You do understand that we cannot story it?


uh, you rely on other forms of electric production, wind, wave, tide, dam, nuclear, oil, gas, coal. whatever using more then one source of power still more enviromentally then just relying on fossil fuel.

or you build enough solar panels that they charge batteries enough so that it can handle being without sun for awhile tongue

 

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imaloon1 
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Subject: Please don't kill this technology gas and oil companies...
Fist_de_Yuma posted:
Why do you think they would do that? Aaaa, I get it; you get your history from Hollywood. Explains a lot about you.

Question? Even if this works so well that we need no power plants when the sun shines; what do we do after it stops shining? You do understand that we cannot story it?




Are you seriously curious? Or being disingenuous? Because if you're seriously curious there are a myriad of storage solutions available for off peak solar hours. Magnets stored in vacuums are one that are used already I believe and their rotational latency is bled off for feeding the grid during off hours or high usage times to make sure the supply of electricity is normalized.


Battery technology can already store probably a couple of weeks worth of electricity for a single family home. I guess you're far over reaching what the goal of such a technological leap could even be but I'm not certain.

 

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Walker_ID 
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Subject: Please don't kill this technology gas and oil companies...
im not sure that the idea of increasing usable surface area is a ground breaking new discovery or even representative of a "new" technology

 

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Fist_de_Yuma 
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Subject: Please don't kill this technology gas and oil companies...
Liberals are good at repeating the talking points but so good at understanding the problem. Sorry liberals. I don't have time to try and educuat you today. If you really want to learn; doubtful; you should hit the interent and get all the facts. Not just the "facts" the DNC gives you.

 

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oxydendrum_meatwad 
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Subject: Please don't kill this technology gas and oil companies...
Fist_de_Yuma posted:
Question? Even if this works so well that we need no power plants when the sun shines; what do we do after it stops shining? You do understand that we cannot story it?

Nevada’s New Molten Salt Solar Plant Will Produce Power Long After the Sun Sets


 

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paulg_68 
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Subject: Please don't kill this technology gas and oil companies...
Solar power isn't economical at present. Solar power storage even less so.

Storing coal power requires space for a pile of coal.

coffee

 

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Blue_arrow 
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Subject: Please don't kill this technology gas and oil companies...
oxydendrum_meatwad posted:
Fist_de_Yuma posted:
Question? Even if this works so well that we need no power plants when the sun shines; what do we do after it stops shining? You do understand that we cannot story it?

Nevada’s New Molten Salt Solar Plant Will Produce Power Long After the Sun Sets








aggressive plan of government subsidies to allow solar energy to compete fairly with oil and other fossil fuels

Solar Grand Plan, published in Scientific American in December 2007, which outlined a plan to supply 69% of U.S. electricity and 35% of its total energy by 2050.



http://cleantechnica.com/2008/06/29/molten-salt-may-be-solution-to-solar-energy-storage/



and how dose this power an 18 wheeler and dose it save one red cent on your power bill ?

 

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Fist_de_Yuma 
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aggressive plan of government subsidies to allow solar energy to compete fairly with oil and other fossil fuels


By fairly you mean take money from one and give it to another; forcing consumers to pay more for both? There is not much about the free market you understand. Not much about the meaning of "fair" you understand. Not that I'm shocked. You see such ignorance from almost every liberal on this subject.

 

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Eager_Igraine 
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Subject: Please don't kill this technology gas and oil companies...
Seems like the more power we can get effectively and efficiently from solar, the more oil we will have around for other critical needs and the less reliant we will be on power sources from foreign governments. Seems pretty win/win to me.

Of course, if the 3d tech takes off and some current solar designers / providers go broke because they can't compete, I expect the haters will crow in triumph about the failure of solar power and/or the waste of government subsidies into alternate energy. laugh

 

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paulg_68 
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Subject: Please don't kill this technology gas and oil companies...
Why subsidize technology that we know isn't economically viable. Companies will produce whatever is subsidized. If we pay them to create bad technology then you can be certain that is exactly what they will produce.

coffee

 

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Azure-TheBlueOne 
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Subject: Please don't kill this technology gas and oil companies...
Why do you say the excess day energy can't be stored for night use?

This is assuming story was a typo.

 

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Eager_Igraine 
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My understanding is that one problem with solar power generation has been finding a method of power storage that can deal with the various instant power demands of large populations. There have been a variety of methods in development and I know some have been successful in limited testing, but I haven't read up on it for a while so this may already be a solved problem.

 

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Thugoneous 
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Subject: Please don't kill this technology gas and oil companies...
If the government was serious about Solar power they would have them on every roof in america

 

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paulg_68 
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Subject: Please don't kill this technology gas and oil companies...
Azure-TheBlueOne posted:
Why do you say the excess day energy can't be stored for night use?

This is assuming story was a typo.

It can't be stored at anywhere near the cost of coal energy.

It's a price thing.

coffee

 

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Eternal_Midnight 
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Subject: Please don't kill this technology gas and oil companies...
Storing solar energy is as simple as pumping water to a high place, then reclaiming it after the sun goes down.

Another recent innovation (LOL at the dude talking about 2007 - solar has advanced dramatically in the last 5 years) is the addition of quantum dots, which allows the panels to capture not only visible light, but ultraviolet. The addition of just four quantum dots increase the efficiency of a standard cell by upwards of 50%.

As far as cost competitive, in Ontario the cost of solar panels dropped 75% in the last TWO YEARS, from about $4/W to $1/W. And solar is being forced to compete 'fairly' against companies recieving billions in government subsidies.

If solar was actually competing in a 'fair' market, those subsidies would either be removed, or solar would recieve a similar benefit. I laugh at people like fist who talk about fair markets, but really just want to preserve the old ways. Solar is a real, viable technology. Battery technology is behind, but not for long.

 

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paulg_68 
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Subject: Please don't kill this technology gas and oil companies...
Eternal_Midnight posted:
Storing solar energy is as simple as pumping water to a high place, then reclaiming it after the sun goes down.

Solar power is already overpriced. You're adding another layer of cost, and two layers of energy exchange that will both bleed energy.

Eternal_Midnight posted:
As far as cost competitive, in Ontario the cost of solar panels dropped 75% in the last TWO YEARS, from about $4/W to $1/W. And solar is being forced to compete 'fairly' against companies recieving billions in government subsidies.

Negative. Solar power requires coal plants to sit partially idle in reserve to compensate for when insufficient solar power is being produced. The price people are told for various power types always charge those reserve coal plants to coal power production rather than to solar power production. This is incorrect. Those coal plants would be operating much more efficiently if their capacity wasn't being held in reserve in order to compensate for the shortcomings of solar. Because of this cost shifting the price of solar power is actually much higher than we are told and the price of coal is actually much lower.

coffee

 

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Eternal_Midnight 
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paulg_68 posted:

Solar power is already overpriced. You're adding another layer of cost, and two layers of energy exchange that will both bleed energy.

Negative. Solar power requires coal plants to sit partially idle in reserve to compensate for when insufficient solar power is being produced. The price people are told for various power types always charge those reserve coal plants to coal power production rather than to solar power production. This is incorrect. Those coal plants would be operating much more efficiently if their capacity wasn't being held in reserve in order to compensate for the shortcomings of solar. Because of this cost shifting the price of solar power is actually much higher than we are told and the price of coal is actually much lower.

coffee


1) Ontario has shut down all but two coal plants, both of which are due to be closed by 2014 - because of our renewable power sources this has been possible. Incidentally, Toronto has seen dramatically reduced smog days over the same time period.

2) We pay $0.06 to $0.11 per kWh, still some of the lowest prices in the world.

3) I am not suggesting that pumping water is the best way, merely that there ARE ways to store solar power. Again, battery technology is improving quickly, now that there is a worldwide marketplace for solar. It is not there yet, but probably within five years it will be. By throwing up your arms and saying it's not possible at this point in time is merely showing your ignorance of the subject.

 

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paulg_68 
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Subject: Please don't kill this technology gas and oil companies...
It's not cost effective at this point.

We should wait until it is.

coffee

 

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Azure-TheBlueOne 
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Subject: Please don't kill this technology gas and oil companies...
Waiting is kind of why people are complaining about $4/gal gas today...


Viable cost effective alternatives aren't going to just magically appear while we wait.

 

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Eternal_Midnight 
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Subject: Please don't kill this technology gas and oil companies...
paulg_68 posted:
It's not cost effective at this point.

We should wait until it is.

coffee


Wait as long as you like. Dozens of countries around the world have already started to make the switch. It'll just be another thing you fall behind in. happy

 

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paulg_68 
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Subject: Please don't kill this technology gas and oil companies...
I prefer to fall behind in overpaying for technology that isn't economically viable.

coffee

 

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Eternal_Midnight 
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Subject: Please don't kill this technology gas and oil companies...
paulg_68 posted:
I prefer to fall behind in overpaying for technology that isn't economically viable.

coffee


That's why many countries have introduced a Feed In Tariff to make it economically viable. Given the initial subsidy boost, Ontario was able to reduce the subsidy by over 20% after just two years. That will continue to fall as the cost to produce the panels falls.

Feeding into the grid earns us a profit, at least before the tariff reduction, of about 15% annually, on a guarenteed contract of 20 years. Producing the power earns money - it doesn't cost money. Paybacks fall in the 6-8 year range, depending the size of your array. The other 12-14 years is pure profit.

Again, dozens of countries have introduced variations on a feed in tariff. That's why it's expensive to you, because you don't see how it could be possible to give people the power to produce energy and earn money, decentralizing the grid at the same time and giving ordinary people control over their energy needs.

It's ok, paul. I understand that you are working off of old information, that solar isn't viable. Continue to believe it if you want, but it's simply not true any more.

 

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paulg_68 
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Subject: Please don't kill this technology gas and oil companies...
Nothing is economically viable if it requires a subsidy. You can't pay a subsidy and make something switch from not being economically viable to being economically viable. It's still not economically viable. You're just overpaying for it.

coffee

 

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Eternal_Midnight 
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Subject: Please don't kill this technology gas and oil companies...
paulg_68 posted:
Nothing is economically viable if it requires a subsidy. You can't pay a subsidy and make something switch from not being economically viable to being economically viable. It's still not economically viable. You're just overpaying for it.

coffee


No high tech industry gets off the ground without subsidies. Oil and gas companies still get billions in subsidies. Does that mean they aren't economically viable? I'm pretty sure coal gets billions in subsidies too.

Subsidies are used to build the industry, give it legs, then you ease off the subsidy so the market can stand on it's own.

Solar isn't 'viable' by your terms because it's being forced to compete with other power producers that do get subsidies. The field is slanted against solar, and it's still succeeding. But again, cover your ears and go "LALALALALA" all you want, it won't alter the realities. happy

 

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Azure-TheBlueOne 
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We don't already subsidize gas?

 

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From Wikipedia:

A 2009 study by the Environmental Law Institute[5] assessed the size and structure of U.S. energy subsidies over the 2002–2008 period. The study estimated that subsidies to fossil-fuel based sources amounted to approximately $72 billion over this period and subsidies to renewable fuel sources totaled $29 billion. The study did not assess subsidies supporting nuclear energy.

The three largest fossil fuel subsidies were:

Foreign tax credit ($15.3 billion)
Credit for production of non-conventional fuels ($14.1 billion)
Oil and Gas exploration and development expensing ($7.1 billion)

The three largest renewable fuel subsidies were:

Alcohol Credit for Fuel Excise Tax ($11.6 billion)
Renewable Electricity Production Credit ($5.2 billion)
Corn-Based Ethanol ($5.0 billion)

In the United States, the federal government has paid US$74 billion for energy subsidies to support R&D for nuclear power ($50 billion) and fossil fuels ($24 billion) from 1973 to 2003. During this same timeframe, renewable energy technologies and energy efficiency received a total of US$26 billion. It has been suggested that a subsidy shift would help to level the playing field and support growing energy sectors, namely solar power, wind power, and biofuels.[6] History shows that no energy sector was developed without subsidies.

 

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paulg_68 
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Eternal_Midnight posted:
Oil and gas companies still get billions in subsidies. Does that mean they aren't economically viable?


The specific operations we're are subsidizing aren't economically viable. That is precisely why we subsidize them.

Why did you think we did it?

Eternal_Midnight posted:
Subsidies are used to build the industry, give it legs, then you ease off the subidy so the market can stand on it's own.

How is paying companies to produce bad technology going to build anything? Wouldn't we be better off if we saved our money and waited for them to come up with good technology and then spent our money on that? Money we spend today on bad technology is money we can't spend tomorrow when the good stuff comes along.

Eternal_Midnight posted:
Solar isn't 'viable' by your terms because it's being forced to compete with other power producers that do get subsidies.

They're not subsidized to lower the price. They're subsidized to keep Americans in jobs that would otherwise disappear. The subsidies don't lower the price.

coffee

 

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MIT posted:
we got pwnd by a 13yo. feels like money well spent



What’s more impressive is the idea stemmed out of a theory by 13-year-old Adiean Dywer who previously hypothesized that a design based on trees would produce more energy. While Dywer did not succeed in his personal experiment, this hunch proved to be useful with a more careful measurement and data calculations by the MIT team. Ah, another example of technology inspired by nature.

 

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Clackdor 
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The cost of energy is tied to the world market. Subsidies have little effect other than helping companies remain profitable. They won't dramatically change prices, but will result in shut down parts of the these companies.

I say bring it on. Stop subsidizing old technology and start subsidizing new. There should be no net change in jobs if you subscribe to the theory that for ever so many thousand dollars = 1 job.

 

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Subject: Please don't kill this technology gas and oil companies...
Fist_de_Yuma posted:
Liberals are good at repeating the talking points but so good at understanding the problem. Sorry liberals. I don't have time to try and educuat you today. If you really want to learn; doubtful; you should hit the interent and get all the facts. Not just the "facts" the DNC gives you.




paulg_68 posted:
It's not cost effective at this point.

We should wait until it is.

coffee


Actually not how the evolution of tech like this works.. . It evolves if you spend money on it, it's something we actually need so it's more or less in the governments interest to help it evolve much like governments helped things like the steam engine and internet along because the state saw the usefulness of trains and the internet. This is much the same thing.


 

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Eternal_Midnight 
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Subject: Please don't kill this technology gas and oil companies...
paulg_68 posted:
The specific operations we're are subsidizing aren't economically viable. That is precisely why we subsidize them.

Why did you think we did it?


How is paying companies to produce bad technology going to build anything? Wouldn't we be better off if we saved our money and waited for them to come up with good technology and then spent our money on that? Money we spend today on bad technology is money we can't spend tomorrow when the good stuff comes along.

They're not subsidized to lower the price. They're subsidized to keep Americans in jobs that would otherwise disappear. The subsidies don't lower the price.

[face_cofee]


1) I thought it was because oil and gas have a huge lobbying effort. *shrug* After all, they have to keep making those record profits. Interesting, then, that the profits they earn in just one year are more than enough to pay for what you, the taxpayer, are still subsidizing. Just one oil and gas company earns over $40 billion in profit - how is anything they do not economically viable?

2) Solar isn't bad technology. You keep saying it, but won't make it true. The sun gives us more than enough power on a daily basis to run everything. For free. Why would you dig into the ground to get something that falls on us every day, and doesn't require us to destroy the biosphere in the process?

3) If you are willing to pay the subsidies, why not switch it to the future technology, now that the existing one can stand on it's own? You might actually create new jobs, while the oil and gas companies might actually have to innovate, rather than living off your dime.

 

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Sezyrrith 
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Subject: Please don't kill this technology gas and oil companies...
Eternal_Midnight posted:
2) Solar isn't bad technology. You keep saying it, but won't make it true. The sun gives us more than enough power on a daily basis to run everything. For free. Why would you dig into the ground to get something that falls on us every day, and doesn't require us to destroy the biosphere in the process?
He's using a lovely bit of circular logic here.

It's bad tech because it is subsidized (despite the fact that oil and gas are also subsidized...).
It's subsidized because it's bad tech (with only outdated information and personal opinion to back it up).

You'll never get anywhere arguing with him, because he'll individually refute your points with these two circular logic bits, over and over, without ever bringing relevant new data to the table.

 

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smellymotor 
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Subject: Please don't kill this technology gas and oil companies...
some friends of my parents have an entirely energy independent home from solar alone. they arent even connected to the grid. cost them about $15K to set up though.

 

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Eternal_Midnight 
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Subject: Please don't kill this technology gas and oil companies...
Here's a new TED talk on battery technologies, involving liquid metal batteries. They've created scalable batteries, with the intention of getting up to 2 MWh of storage capacity.

http://www.ted.com/talks/donald_sadoway_the_missing_link_to_renewable_energy.html

 

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paulg_68 
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Subject: Please don't kill this technology gas and oil companies...
Manegarm posted:
Actually not how the evolution of tech like this works.. . It evolves if you spend money on it

Actually it evolves faster if you refuse to pay for crappy stuff but promise to pay for good stuff if they can invent it.

Manegarm posted:
governments helped things like the steam engine and internet along because the state saw the usefulness of trains and the internet. This is much the same thing.

Ah, you're talking about funding research and development. That is definitely not the same thing as buying a bunch of products that aren't economically viable.

I'm okay with the government funding vital research and development so long as the government holds any patents produced.

coffee

 

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paulg_68 
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Subject: Please don't kill this technology gas and oil companies...
Eternal_Midnight posted:
1) I thought it was because oil and gas have a huge lobbying effort. *shrug* After all, they have to keep making those record profits. Interesting, then, that the profits they earn in just one year are more than enough to pay for what you, the taxpayer, are still subsidizing. Just one oil and gas company earns over $40 billion in profit - how is anything they do not economically viable?

The subsidies to oil companies don't contribute to profits. They compensate for losses on unprofitable operations. Oil companies couldn't care less if the government took away their subsidies. They'd just shut down the unprofitable operations and fire all the people who work on them. Their bottom line would stay exactly the same. They would just go forward exclusively with their profitable operations.

Eternal_Midnight posted:
2) Solar isn't bad technology. You keep saying it, but won't make it true. The sun gives us more than enough power on a daily basis to run everything. For free. Why would you dig into the ground to get something that falls on us every day, and doesn't require us to destroy the biosphere in the process?

Because solar is much more expensive than coal.

Eternal_Midnight posted:
3) If you are willing to pay the subsidies

I'm not. I say fire all those workers and let them find jobs that make economic sense. I don't think we should subsidize any industries.

coffee

 

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Urk_VN 
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Subject: Please don't kill this technology gas and oil companies...
I'd say we should invest in satellites to harvest power from the sun in space, and have it beam it down to power stations waiting on the ground. Then you won't have to worry about cloudy days/night time, and as a side bonus, you can reconfigure said satellites into kill sats. Who needs nukes when you can call death from above? dancing

Back on the topic, I think we should be investing in research for renewable energy. The oil's probably going to run out at some point, so it'd be nice to have viable alternatives for it.

 

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theredkay1 
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Subject: Please don't kill this technology gas and oil companies...
paulg_68 posted:

The subsidies to oil companies don't contribute to profits.



laugh Can you point to the subsidy that specifies it only applies to unprofitable operations? thinking

 

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Subject: Please don't kill this technology gas and oil companies...
Fist_de_Yuma posted:
Question? Even if this works so well that we need no power plants when the sun shines; what do we do after it stops shining? You do understand that we cannot story it?



You remind me of a joke i heard a long time ago:

Outposter: "I am the only Outposter that has been to the moon"
Outposter 2: "Oh yeah, well i'm going to be the first to go to Mars"
Fist: "That's nothing, I am going to go to THE SUN!"
Outposter: "How are you going to do that, you'll burn up!"

Fist: "Not a problem, i will go at night!"

Ba dum dum. grin

In short, we're already storing solar energy. Or, look up net-metering. Also, stop being a dumbass so consistently.

 

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Coal will always be super cheap. It is a stupid comparison to make.

 

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Subject: Please don't kill this technology gas and oil companies...
Sin_of_Onin posted:
Coal will always be super cheap. It is a stupid comparison to make.


Sunlight is free.

 

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paulg_68 
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Subject: Please don't kill this technology gas and oil companies...
theredkay1 posted:
paulg_68 posted:

The subsidies to oil companies don't contribute to profits.



laugh Can you point to the subsidy that specifies it only applies to unprofitable operations? thinking

All of them.

Can you point to one that's not?

thinking

 

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paulg_68 
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Subject: Please don't kill this technology gas and oil companies...
Eternal_Midnight posted:
Sin_of_Onin posted:
Coal will always be super cheap. It is a stupid comparison to make.


Sunlight is free.

Solar panels and energy storage systems are not.

coffee

 

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Sin_of_Onin 
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The problem with coal is that it is coal.

 

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Subject: Please don't kill this technology gas and oil companies...
Azure-TheBlueOne posted:
Why do you say the excess day energy can't be stored for night use?

This is assuming story was a typo.
\

Exactly the problem. If we could store it we would be far better off, even with oil and coal. Over power is wasted. They have to shut down and bring up sections, at great cost, to make supply as close to demand as possible.

 

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Subject: Please don't kill this technology gas and oil companies...
paulg_68 posted:
theredkay1 posted:
paulg_68 posted:

The subsidies to oil companies don't contribute to profits.



laugh Can you point to the subsidy that specifies it only applies to unprofitable operations? thinking

All of them.

Can you point to one that's not?

thinking


Sure.

Petroleum producers get favorable depreciation rules. Its possible to deduct from your taxes more than you invest to locate and acquire property for exploration/production. They also get to depreciate assets quicker.

So theres two.

 

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I can care less where energy comes from. So long as prices stay the same and it doesn't kill people. But nothing we have to date meets that criteria so why not just leave it be?

 

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Subject: Please don't kill this technology gas and oil companies...
Coal is only cheap because you can get the rest of society to pay most of the costs.

By subsidizing solar panels society is just sorta doing the same thing for solar power. Only solar power only costs money, not lives. thinking

 

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theredkay1 
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Trying to avoid killing people is OMGSOCIALISM!

Go wave your commie flag somewhere else comrade

 

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Subject: Please don't kill this technology gas and oil companies...
Fist_de_Yuma posted:


what do we do after it stops shining?


Do you know what a battery or capacitor is?

 

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