GrilledCheez
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welfare as the answer to diminishing wages.
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resets the baseline to welfare and makes everyone working poorer relative to everyone else. That is what i find funny about the old saying: conservatives want the rich to get richer, liberals want everyone to get poorer.
It's sad because nobody is actually saying what I want to hear. Neither side wants to empower labor. Conservatives want to marginalize them and dems want to own them. And no I dont' think it's some nefarious plan, but the end result to both philosophies are obvious, and have never been more obvious than right now.
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ZigmundZag
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welfare as the answer to diminishing wages.
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BRING BACK THE CHEEZUS!
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imaloon1
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Subject:
welfare as the answer to diminishing wages.
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GrilledCheez posted:
resets the baseline to welfare and makes everyone working poorer relative to everyone else. That is what i find funny about the old saying: conservatives want the rich to get richer, liberals want everyone to get poorer.
It's sad because nobody is actually saying what I want to hear. Neither side wants to empower labor. Conservatives want to marginalize them and dems want to own them. And no I dont' think it's some nefarious plan, but the end result to both philosophies are obvious, and have never been more obvious than right now.
RAH RAH RICK KICK EM IN THE DICK!!!
RAH RAH RACK KICK EM IN THE OTHER DICK!!!
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Yukishiro1
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welfare as the answer to diminishing wages.
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If by empowering labor you mean closing down the borders to foreign trade I am not sure that's a superior strategy. I am not sure the secret to restoring america's middle class is to make them buy more expensive clothes and electronics.
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GrilledCheez
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welfare as the answer to diminishing wages.
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do you think labor unions were ever a good idea? if so what made them successful? What allowed unions to thrive and produce positive results? Do you think if there were other forces at play, forces the pols in the mid 1900s were extra afraid of that the market would have been just as good as unions?
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Yukishiro1
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I don't have a beef with unions. In general.
Protectionism doesn't work, though. We tried that and it caused the great depression.
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Fist_de_Yuma
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Subject:
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So those that work harder and take risks will be taxed to support those who don't. Then everyone will be equal. Of course no one will bother to work harder or take risks but heck, they will all be equal.
This equal stuff totally forgets that our, "poor" live better than the very rich 100 years ago. Hell, I would killed for a cell phone, internet or even cable when I was a kid. You suckers don't even know how good you have it.
A pocks on all your houses.
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GrilledCheez
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"protectionism" has always been at play in one way or another. The only way to describe pro union legislation is protectionist. So if you have a beef with any protectionist policies then you by default have a beef with unions. Unless we are about to have another Paulesque semantic debate, where you never deny anything about actually being for or against unions but argue the meaning of the words all night.
free labor is the antithesis of labor protections. They are called protections because they are protectionist, BTW.
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Bonzoboy1
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I benefited from protectionism, last year the U.S. put a tariff on Chinese aluminum and my business increased.
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Friarspam
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It's "pox".
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Sin_of_Onin
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Honestly the idea that the only way to empower labor is by shooting the consumer in the head is getting old.
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GrilledCheez
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making them cheaper through tax and spend is clearly superior. I've always said the best way to empower someone is make them poorer.
Me and this guy agree:
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Sin_of_Onin
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Says the person who doesn't know who pays the cost for his ideas.
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reesescups
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Subject:
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Fist_de_Yuma posted:
This equal stuff totally forgets that our, "poor" live better than the very rich 100 years ago.
Um - no, no they don't - not in any way measurable.
 
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imaloon1
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Yukishiro1 posted:
I don't have a beef with unions. In general.
Protectionism doesn't work, though. We tried that and it caused the great depression.
That is not what caused the great depression FYI.
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theredkay1
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Trade policy that opens up labor competition in some industries while protecting other industries (medical, legal, finance) produces very predictable outcomes...especially when you make an effort to overvalue the dollar for 2 decades. Free trade is really a misnomer when it only applies to a select group of products and services.
Trade is a wonderful thing. We should throw open the doors for labor and products in more industries. You can get a similar effect from rolling back government regulations that limit competition and therefore drive up prices and profit margins (aka patents, copyrights). A large drop in the cost of medical/legal/financial products and services would be a huge boost for those suffering from diminished wages.
You really dont see anyone in DC suggesting these ideas.
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paulg_68
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Best way to help labor is produce fewer laborers.
Reduce supply and the price goes up.
It's funny that Obama and the Democrats now agree with me on this subject. They said so over and over again during the "free" birth control debate.
It's usually just a matter of time before people come around to my way of thinking.
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GrilledCheez
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
Says the person who doesn't know who pays the cost for his ideas.
Does it bother you that your argument is the EXACT argument that monied interests use against healthcare, anti-trust, labor unions in the mid 1900s, and nearly any time anyone does anything to try to empower labor? You think you're new and edgy because you realize costs will go up if we see wage inflation?
STOP THE PRESSES! IF YOU PAY PEOPLE A LIVING WAGE YOUR GRILL WILL COST MORE!!!!
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Sin_of_Onin
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GrilledCheez posted:
Sin_of_Onin posted:
Says the person who doesn't know who pays the cost for his ideas.
Does it bother you that your argument is the EXACT argument that monied interests use against healthcare, anti-trust, labor unions in the mid 1900s, and nearly any time anyone does anything to try to empower labor? You think you're new and edgy because you realize costs will go up if we see wage inflation?
STOP THE PRESSES! IF YOU PAY PEOPLE A LIVING WAGE YOUR GRILL WILL COST MORE!!!!
Try harder to not even understand the issue. Neither side of the issue as a matter of fact.
It is hard to argue with someone about health care he refuses to look at all the other countries that have UHC.
It is hard to argue with someone about trade when they refuse to look at the history of trade.
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GrilledCheez
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
GrilledCheez posted:
Sin_of_Onin posted:
Says the person who doesn't know who pays the cost for his ideas.
Does it bother you that your argument is the EXACT argument that monied interests use against healthcare, anti-trust, labor unions in the mid 1900s, and nearly any time anyone does anything to try to empower labor? You think you're new and edgy because you realize costs will go up if we see wage inflation?
STOP THE PRESSES! IF YOU PAY PEOPLE A LIVING WAGE YOUR GRILL WILL COST MORE!!!!
Try harder to not even understand the issue. Neither side of the issue as a matter of fact.
It is hard to argue with someone about health care he refuses to look at all the other countries that have UHC.
It is hard to argue with someone about trade when they refuse to look at the history of trade.
LOL. OK packhunter. Thanks for visiting the thread. I'm glad your team's plans have worked so well and wages are up and unemployment is down. Oh, I forget it's a complicated issue. Much moreso than when we tackled it in the past, because we have walmarts now.
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Sin_of_Onin
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My team's?
lol
My position has been pretty clear on both issues as has yours. It is not like I am holding something back.
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illmyrin
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If welfare, someday, prevents me from needing to murder old people in their sleep for the gold in their teeth, in order to pay rent or afford food, I'm all for it.
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GrilledCheez
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Sorry. your opinion just lines up nearly exactly with all the dems I know. And that's not an insult. I know fairly educated and informed people.
I didn't mean to accuse you of carrying dem water so much as to accuse you of expressing failed and failing current ideas.
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Sin_of_Onin
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GrilledCheez posted:
Sorry. your opinion just lines up nearly exactly with all the dems I know. And that's not an insult. I know fairly educated and informed people.
I didn't mean to accuse you of carrying dem water so much as to accuse you of expressing failed and failing current ideas.
I am not aware of my position on either issue being law in this country. There are plenty of countries that use some of the policies I have suggested and have seen the results I predict would happen in the US.
I am aware of your position on health care being law and failing horribly though. I am aware of times when your idea of trade policy was used and it just screwing over both labor and the consumer.
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GrilledCheez
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hahaha as opposed to the workers paradise we've been building for the last four decades? Where median wages for those in the lower half of the workforce haven't risen ten percent? Are you kidding me?
I get that you think it would be helpful to decrease the cost of labor by taxing and spending a lot of the costs out of living for the poor and lower middle class. I disagree with you that it is a good idea and think it would be bad for MANY reasons, but I agree it would help the labor balance and maybe even be a necessary cure right now. But I don't see how you can argue freer trade and labor laws as better historically for labor than labor protection based enterprise. I can't even fathom you saying that.
you must view history through a strange prism. Or I am completely wrong about my understanding of history. Which I suppose isn't out of the question.
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Sin_of_Onin
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GrilledCheez posted:
hahaha as opposed to the workers paradise we've been building for the last four decades? Where median wages for those in the lower half of the workforce haven't risen ten percent? Are you kidding me?
I get that you think it would be helpful to decrease the cost of labor by taxing and spending a lot of the costs out of living for the poor and lower middle class. I disagree with you that it is a good idea and think it would be bad for MANY reasons, but I agree it would help the labor balance and maybe even be a necessary cure right now. But I don't see how you can argue freer trade and labor laws as better historically for labor than labor protection based enterprise. I can't even fathom you saying that.
you must view history through a strange prism. Or I am completely wrong about my understanding of history. Which I suppose isn't out of the question.
You keep acting like I think the status quo is what I want or that I think it is honky dory.
You also keep acting like a tax is a cost in a way that paying for it directly isn't.
The history of trade is pretty clear. It drives growth as does industrialization. Free trade implies a lack of manipulation. The last 40 years of trade have been marked by manipulation. I am also a proponent of not just free trade but trade policy that recognizes the impact of trade on the labor market and places an emphasis on balanced trade. UHC is part of that. IT doesn't have to be but there is no denying that it is part of it and there are reasons to do it outside of the impact on the potential impact on the labor market.
What Obamacare will demonstrate is just how inefficient our system(private insurance) is at covering everyone the morality of our nation demands.
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paulg_68
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Without reading any of the text from this slap fight I'm going to predict that if I did I would find that GrilledCheez is wrong and Sin_of_Onin is wrong and belligerently stupid.
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Sin_of_Onin
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paulg_68 posted:
Without reading any of the text from this slap fight I'm going to predict that if I did I would find that GrilledCheez is wrong and Sin_of_Onin is wrong and belligerently stupid.
Coming from you that hurts.
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Yukishiro1
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imaloon1 posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
I don't have a beef with unions. In general.
Protectionism doesn't work, though. We tried that and it caused the great depression.
That is not what caused the great depression FYI.
Yes it was. It didn't cause the economic problem but it was what turned it into the great depression.
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Brother_Tempus
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GrilledCheez posted:
resets the baseline to welfare and makes everyone working poorer relative to everyone else. That is what i find funny about the old saying: conservatives want the rich to get richer, liberals want everyone to get poorer.
It's sad because nobody is actually saying what I want to hear. Neither side wants to empower labor. Conservatives want to marginalize them and dems want to own them. And no I dont' think it's some nefarious plan, but the end result to both philosophies are obvious, and have never been more obvious than right now.
the problem with that type of system is that eventually you run out of other people's money to steal and you can no longer fund the system and you are mow left with more poor people than you started out with
Because as Grilled points out, welfare is a subsidy and when you subsidize something, you get more of it
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Sin_of_Onin
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Actually one of the bigger problems facing our various safety net programs and health care programs is that they are all based off of getting less for earning more. Health care delivery needs to be detached from income measures. A system like Germany is decent. Get rid of Medicaid and Medicare and all the other add ons and create one comprehensive plan.
Everything else, Food Stamps, housing, EITC, unemployment, etc should be part of a comprehensive system that is flexible enough to adapt to regional and individual needs instead of bureaucratic formulas.
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