Jaedence posted:

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So many missing the point.

TKD has been proven to be useless as a martial art.

Other martial arts are fun, teach discipline and can possibly help you in the future.

Why would pay to teach your kids something worthless? You might as well be paying for them to go to an arcade if all you're looking for is for them to have a good time. Want to teach them discipline? Any martial art can do that.

If you don't want your kid to be able to defend themselves, turn in your parent card.

If you just want them to have fun, buy them a PSP.

If you want to teach them discipline, there are lots of ways to do this that aren't a complete waste of money.

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Akza posted:

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TKD is still better than nearly all of the other martial arts for fighting.

It just happens that the MMA fighting styles are better at fighting than TKD.

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Cawlin posted:

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TKD has been proven useless where?

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smellymotor posted:

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Wtf is TKD?

Also MMA has got to be the most boring thing ever. 2 dudes that just roll on the floor hugging, yeah that's fun

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Jaedence posted:

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Cawlin posted:

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TKD has been proven useless where?

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In a fight. Against other martial artists.

If you want to bring pistols into it, why not just bring a-bombs in as well?

I just asked "Why train in TKD? Why enroll your kid in it when there are better options available?"

It seems I might as well have asked "Why do you still have a Atari 2600 when a PC is so much better?"

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Jaedence posted:

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Akza posted:

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TKD is still better than nearly all of the other martial arts for fighting.

It just happens that the MMA fighting styles are better at fighting than TKD.

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You're not making sense. DO you know what a Martial Art is?



So, your two statements make no sense together.

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smellymotor posted:

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Oh I know tae kwan do. it's not a useless martial art at all

MMA still sucks though. I rate it as entertaining as WWF wrestling. Do they even know martial arts? They fight like 5 year old brothers in the back yard

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smellymotor posted:

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Oh I know tae kwan do. it's not a useless martial art at all

MMA still sucks though. I rate it as entertaining as WWF wrestling. Do they even know martial arts? They fight like 5 year old brothers in the back yard

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GrymmDAOC posted:

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smellymotor posted:

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Oh I know tae kwan do. it's not a useless martial art at all

MMA still sucks though. I rate it as entertaining as WWF wrestling. Do they even know martial arts? They fight like 5 year old brothers in the back yard

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There is tremendous art in MMA. For example submission grappling is like physical chess, and when you understand it you can see how one position flows into the the next leading to the inevitable checkmate of a submission.

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Cawlin posted:

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GrymmDAOC posted:

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smellymotor posted:

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Oh I know tae kwan do. it's not a useless martial art at all

MMA still sucks though. I rate it as entertaining as WWF wrestling. Do they even know martial arts? They fight like 5 year old brothers in the back yard

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There is tremendous art in MMA. For example submission grappling is like physical chess, and when you understand it you can see how one position flows into the the next leading to the inevitable checkmate of a submission.

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Submission holds are terribly boring to watch though. Nobody thinks it's legit for some 170 lb punk to beat a 220 lb monster with an ankle bar.

FYI, chess isn't a big spectator sport either.

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Jaedence posted:

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It amazes me how popular this martial art still is with American Parents. It seems like there is a McDojo in every town.

Teach your kids wrestling, boxing or Brazilian Jiu Jitsu or you're wasting your money.

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Galois2005 posted:

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God I wish this MMA fad would die.

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eodoll posted:

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for winning most fights street fights? boxing.

if you can throw a punch where your opponent cant see it coming and you know where to strike then thats all you need.

you are not going to grapple in a street fight. most street fights end after a few punches.

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eodoll posted:

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for winning most fights street fights? boxing.

if you can throw a punch where your opponent cant see it coming and you know where to strike then thats all you need.

you are not going to grapple in a street fight. most street fights end after a few punches.

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Jaedence posted:

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It amazes me how popular this martial art still is with American Parents. It seems like there is a McDojo in every town.

Teach your kids wrestling, boxing or Brazilian Jiu Jitsu or you're wasting your money.

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Ashmaele posted:

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Galois2005 posted:

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God I wish this MMA fad would die.

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It is an order of magnitude better than boxing has been, at least since Sugar Ray Leonard and Marvin Hagler retired.

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Cawlin posted:

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When everyone knows all the kicking/punching techniques, everyone ALSO knows the ways to get around them or through them and is conditioned to be able to do so without taking a catastrophic beating. When you put them in a ring with a cage around it so maneuvering is limited, it's not about endurance or movement, all about the grappling and submission holds.

Yes occasionally matches are decided by striking - but that's usually the scrub level stuff.

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Szerek posted:

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This is simply, well, wrong. Go back again and watch UFC 1. Back in 1993 BJJ was king because other styles didn't know how to fight it. MMA today is a mixture of styles where everyone trains a little bit of all styles. A good striker can easily beat a good grappler simply because he can stuff take downs.

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Yossarian_42 posted:

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MMA was awesome at first but then they got too good at it.

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Ashmaele posted:

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[quote=Yossarian_42]It is much better now imo, even if Dana White is an insufferable punk.

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imaloon1 posted:

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I wonder what it would look like if all the Internet tough guys gathered in a thread...

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imaloon1 posted:

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I wonder what it would look like if all the Internet tough guys gathered in a thread...

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Altra_Shadowstalker posted:

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It's not the martial art, it's the person and the condition they're in. I've known guys who do TKD and are badass fighters, and I've known people who do Wing Chung who like it because they watched Ip Man. I trained in Muay Thai and BJJ, and therewere plenty of good and effective students in my classes. They would be just as good or effective if they trained in another martial art.

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sweeny_comodore posted:

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Altra_Shadowstalker posted:

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It's not the martial art, it's the person and the condition they're in. I've known guys who do TKD and are badass fighters, and I've known people who do Wing Chung who like it because they watched Ip Man. I trained in Muay Thai and BJJ, and therewere plenty of good and effective students in my classes. They would be just as good or effective if they trained in another martial art.

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Exactly.
All styles are basically equall.
The skill level of the artist is where the difference lies..
I would love to spar with anyone who's around my skill level. There's always something to learn.

Sport fighting may be dominated by wrestlers, but their rules would hurt them if it really came down to it.

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Cawlin posted:

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For me back in the early 90s, I watched some UFC where Royce Gracie I think it was just turtled up on guys and then choked them out and it was like: "wow, we paid $45 for this?"

Then MMA came along and people were all like "You gotta watch this man, it's brutal, look!" and I saw some youtubes of scrubs breaking bones in the under-undercard matches... then I saw some big time "main event" fight where some dude put Brock Lesner in a foot bar of some sort or other and got him to submit and realized what a pile of unentertaining garbage it was.

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Szerek posted:

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Cawlin posted:

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For me back in the early 90s, I watched some UFC where Royce Gracie I think it was just turtled up on guys and then choked them out and it was like: "wow, we paid $45 for this?"

Then MMA came along and people were all like "You gotta watch this man, it's brutal, look!" and I saw some youtubes of scrubs breaking bones in the under-undercard matches... then I saw some big time "main event" fight where some dude put Brock Lesner in a foot bar of some sort or other and got him to submit and realized what a pile of unentertaining garbage it was.

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So you are an MMA expert because the sum total of your MMA experience is UFC 1 watching Brock Lesnar lose to Frank Mir by kneebar in the second fight of his career.

You do conform to the outpost standards. Everyone here in an f'in budget expert because they have a checkbook.

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Cawlin posted:

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I didn't say I was an expert, I said I thought it was unentertaining garbage.

I get that you wish you were some sort of MMA hard guy or something, but it doesn't make my opinions any less valid on this tripe.

You remind me of the 13 year old kids that would get all in your face if you said that their own favorite pro wrestler was a joke or that the sport was a joke - as if them screaming that JYD IS AWESOME! made it so...

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Szerek posted:

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Cawlin posted:

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I didn't say I was an expert, I said I thought it was unentertaining garbage.

I get that you wish you were some sort of MMA hard guy or something, but it doesn't make my opinions any less valid on this tripe.

You remind me of the 13 year old kids that would get all in your face if you said that their own favorite pro wrestler was a joke or that the sport was a joke - as if them screaming that JYD IS AWESOME! made it so...

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You've got one hell of an imagination. I never said I was any kind of MMA guy, except a fan of the sport. You come into a thread about MMA fighting and spout "facts" about MMA fighting styles when your total experience is maybe two events spaced nearly 20 years apart.

Then you bring up professional wrasslin probably to cover the douche scent you are putting out right now, however, you could be comparing MMA to WWE, however, MMA is sanction in the same was as boxing, so are you saying Boxing = WWE?

I've already refuted your "most fights are boring submissions" argument so what is your point other than you are an expert on fighting styles you know nothing about?

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imaloon1 posted:

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I wonder what it would look like if all the Internet tough guys gathered in a thread...

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Cawlin posted:

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ROFL you are EXACTLY the kind of "rasslin" tard that used to get all in peoples' face who thought it was garbage. You're proving it for the third time in this thread.

When I was in 7th grade the rasslin douches used to get all hyped up about their silly TV show and whenever anyone made fun of it or them, they'd all start yelling and screaming at what a douche you were... and about how the JYD could beat your ass because you thought rasslin was stupid... or about how they could probably beat you up themselves because you thought Hulkamania was dumb...

You crack me the fk up dude. Seriously.

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Cawk posted:

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MMA styles are great for fighting MMA fights. For all other weaponless fights that one may encounter, knowing ANY martial art is probably best - Judo may be suboptimal for a street fight unless you've got some striking techniques thrown in.

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Cawk posted:

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However, when you throw someone to the ground, effectively stopping their attack on you, THEN attack back by jumping on them and choking them out, you've gone beyond your legal right to defend yourself unless you can show that the person presented a clear threat to you while laying on the ground - tough to do.

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Cawk posted:

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Yeah, if you want to bring a kid up into MMA fighting, get them instruction in a wide variety of throwing, striking, boxing, grappling styles.

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Szerek posted:

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SOMEONE DOESN'T LIKE MMA, THEY'RE A DOUCHE AND I AM GOING TO CALL THEM NAMES ON THE INTERNET AND THEN PRETEND LIKE THEY'RE THE ONES MELTING DOWN INSTEAD OF ME! I could probably kick anyone's ass who doesn't like MMA just by yelling out the names of my favorite MMA guys just like the kids who loved pro wrestling!

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Cawlin posted:

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Szerek posted:

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SOMEONE DOESN'T LIKE MMA, THEY'RE A DOUCHE AND I AM GOING TO CALL THEM NAMES ON THE INTERNET AND THEN PRETEND LIKE THEY'RE THE ONES MELTING DOWN INSTEAD OF ME! I could probably kick anyone's ass who doesn't like MMA just by yelling out the names of my favorite MMA guys just like the kids who loved pro wrestling!

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GrilledCheez posted:

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sweeny_comodore posted:

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M


and i think a skilled TKD fighter would probably own most MMA fighters in a real fight.

like ive mentioned before, kidney spears, spleen hits, throat attacks, hits to the back of the neck and head, nut shots....
those are all valuable techniques that an MMA fighter wouldnt know how to counter because he doesnt have to deal with them in a ring, with rules against those types of shots.

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GrymmDAOC posted:

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sweeny_comodore posted:

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M


and i think a skilled TKD fighter would probably own most MMA fighters in a real fight.

like ive mentioned before, kidney spears, spleen hits, throat attacks, hits to the back of the neck and head, nut shots....
those are all valuable techniques that an MMA fighter wouldnt know how to counter because he doesnt have to deal with them in a ring, with rules against those types of shots.

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Unless you train submission defense and takedown defense, you are going down, and you are going to be submitted. This was proven time and time again in the early years of MMA where there were almost no rules at all.

And MMA guys are perfectly capable of liver kicks and the like. Just ask Brock Lesnar.

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Szerek posted:

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Cawlin posted:

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When everyone knows all the kicking/punching techniques, everyone ALSO knows the ways to get around them or through them and is conditioned to be able to do so without taking a catastrophic beating. When you put them in a ring with a cage around it so maneuvering is limited, it's not about endurance or movement, all about the grappling and submission holds.

Yes occasionally matches are decided by striking - but that's usually the scrub level stuff.

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This is simply, well, wrong. Go back again and watch UFC 1. Back in 1993 BJJ was king because other styles didn't know how to fight it. MMA today is a mixture of styles where everyone trains a little bit of all styles. A good striker can easily beat a good grappler simply because he can stuff take downs.

These days, even the pure grapplers have to learn to strike or they will lose once they get to any decent competition. If you need an example of this, look at Damian Maia. Damiam Maia was a world champion grappler who destroyed everyone until he started facing top level strikers. People who were good enough at either BJJ or Wrestling to not be taken down. When you can't strike effectively and you face someone you can't get on the ground, you will lose.

BJJ vs any striking discipline, BJJ will always win because they learn to avoid punches and get take downs. I studied Isshinryu and though those years never once were we ever taught how to avoid a take down.

Anderson Silva is arguably one of the best MMA fighters ever. He hasn't lost a fight in 6 years. He fights mainly as a striker. He is also a BJJ black belt who can grapple with the best, but he prefers striking.


To finish, there are more knockouts than submissions in the UFC today, and there are more decisions than knockouts.

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sweeny_comodore posted:

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GrymmDAOC posted:

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sweeny_comodore posted:

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M


and i think a skilled TKD fighter would probably own most MMA fighters in a real fight.

like ive mentioned before, kidney spears, spleen hits, throat attacks, hits to the back of the neck and head, nut shots....
those are all valuable techniques that an MMA fighter wouldnt know how to counter because he doesnt have to deal with them in a ring, with rules against those types of shots.

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Unless you train submission defense and takedown defense, you are going down, and you are going to be submitted. This was proven time and time again in the early years of MMA where there were almost no rules at all.

And MMA guys are perfectly capable of liver kicks and the like. Just ask Brock Lesnar.

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reading comprehension is your friend

also, if you go back and actually read yould see that i already agreed with you about sport fighting

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GrymmDAOC posted:

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sweeny_comodore posted:

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GrymmDAOC posted:

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[quote=sweeny_comodore]M


and i think a skilled TKD fighter would probably own most MMA fighters in a real fight.

like ive mentioned before, kidney spears, spleen hits, throat attacks, hits to the back of the neck and head, nut shots....
those are all valuable techniques that an MMA fighter wouldnt know how to counter because he doesnt have to deal with them in a ring, with rules against those types of shots.

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Unless you train submission defense and takedown defense, you are going down, and you are going to be submitted. This was proven time and time again in the early years of MMA where there were almost no rules at all.

And MMA guys are perfectly capable of liver kicks and the like. Just ask Brock Lesnar.

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reading comprehension is your friend

also, if you go back and actually read yould see that i already agreed with you about sport fighting

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sweeny_comodore posted:

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GrymmDAOC posted:

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sweeny_comodore posted:

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[quote=GrymmDAOC][quote=sweeny_comodore]M


and i think a skilled TKD fighter would probably own most MMA fighters in a real fight.

like ive mentioned before, kidney spears, spleen hits, throat attacks, hits to the back of the neck and head, nut shots....
those are all valuable techniques that an MMA fighter wouldnt know how to counter because he doesnt have to deal with them in a ring, with rules against those types of shots.

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Unless you train submission defense and takedown defense, you are going down, and you are going to be submitted. This was proven time and time again in the early years of MMA where there were almost no rules at all.

And MMA guys are perfectly capable of liver kicks and the like. Just ask Brock Lesnar.

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reading comprehension is your friend

also, if you go back and actually read yould see that i already agreed with you about sport fighting

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sweeny_comodore posted:

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I
actually it does matter.
the ring has rules. the street doesnt
ever seen someone lips get ripped, eyes gouged out, ears boxed in an MMA ring?
ever notice how the ref stops the fight when someone gets kicked in the nuts? theres no ref in the street.


heres some shaolin vs MMA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TErMWRNB-yM&feature=related

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While adhering to the theories of Huang- Di's Nine Chamber Scriptures, the Taoist, Wu Dao Zi, of the Tang dynasty (618 AD - 906 AD) blended the static and kinetic self-defense features of the birds, animals, boxing and swordsmanship comprising the skills of wrestling, striking, seizing and kicking as well as the skills of chi control and spirit preservation through the cultivation of bone marrow washing. This school was named Little Nine Heaven Wu Tao. The students of this school were responsible for guarding the temples of the Taoist priests. posted:

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GrymmDAOC posted:

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There are NO shaolin martial monks. They were all killed off by the Qing Dynasty centuries ago. The people posing as shaolin martial monks are wushu dancers playing for tourist dollars. They are fake. The most famous "Shaolin Monk" lives in hawaii and has a child with the daughter of a famous black activist. They are fake.

The real shaolin monastery has a handful of monks in it, none of them martial. Just ask Jet Li. My wife is Chinese. Ask her parents. They know the score. I honestly respect most martial arts, and I do love and respect Han culture and history. I really do. The Han are a very great people, worthy of emulation (so fug you Dae trist). In time, I will probably study Tai Qi Chuan (even though I think Qi is a load of bull) but you need to know the score. Lies serves no one. There is no traceable "Shaolin Kung Fu". And the kung masters are, all too often, idiots. That is why the Chinese bases their military combatives striking on boxing.

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GrymmDAOC posted:

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Ask Jet mutha fuggin' li how many monks are at Shaolin.

The Qing dynastey killed em all off to keep em from supporting the ming.

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Altra_Shadowstalker posted:

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That right there is the problem.

Assume there's no weapon.

Assume it's a one on one.

Assume your enemy has honor.

Assume assume assume.

The last place I want to end up in a street fight is on the ground. While I've gotten past your guard, into the full mount and am applying my kamora rear naked choke armbar Americano, your buddy just smashed a glass bottle on my head and is stabbing me with the remainder. My buddies can point out i beat the first guy by almost choking him out... At my eulogy.

Personally, I'd rather figure out a way to defend myself while i retreat. I wouldn't knock those who train in the ground game though (as i said, i trained BJJ for about a year or two myself). Knowing how to put up a defense is important, as is learning how to fall.

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posted:

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In 1928, the warlord Shi Yousan set fire to the monastery, burning it for over 40 days, destroying a significant percent of the buildings including many manuscripts of the temple library.[11]

The Cultural Revolution launched in 1966 targeted religious orders including the monastery. The five monks who were present at the monastery when the Red Guard attacked were shackled and made to wear placards declaring the crimes charged against them.[11] The monks were jailed after publicly being flogged and paraded through the street as people threw rubbish at them.[11] The government purged Buddhist materials from within the monastery walls, leaving it barren for years.

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GrymmDAOC posted:

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I am not going to argue with this. The combat grappling art of medieval europe was called kampfringen, which translates to "war grappling". There is no ground game in kampfringen, because you cannot pull guard against a pollaxe. That being said, the PEASANT arts of europe had a ground game, because peasants dont carry a sword.

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shaolin posted:

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At the peak of its historical influence, the temple ran 25 sub-temples with as many as 800-plus monks.

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sweeny_comodore posted:

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shaolin posted:

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At the peak of its historical influence, the temple ran 25 sub-temples with as many as 800-plus monks.

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so which temple, exactly, was it that was burned and ALL 5 of the monks jailed?

and of the thousands of fighting monks that were housed in the temples, how many of them were jailed or murdered?




you people suck at the internet

and why do we care what actors say, again?

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Altra_Shadowstalker posted:

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GrymmDAOC posted:

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I am not going to argue with this. The combat grappling art of medieval europe was called kampfringen, which translates to "war grappling". There is no ground game in kampfringen, because you cannot pull guard against a pollaxe. That being said, the PEASANT arts of europe had a ground game, because peasants dont carry a sword.

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As i understand it, people were wearing so much armor back then that the only way to kill someone really was get him on the ground and 4 or 5 of you had to swarm him. I know armor wasn't as restrictive as we think, but i doubt a ground game probably wouldn't help you much in defending yourself from that so you could pull yourself out of the mud and back on your feet.

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Eager_Igraine posted:

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sweeny_comodore posted:

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shaolin posted:

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At the peak of its historical influence, the temple ran 25 sub-temples with as many as 800-plus monks.

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so which temple, exactly, was it that was burned and ALL 5 of the monks jailed?

and of the thousands of fighting monks that were housed in the temples, how many of them were jailed or murdered?




you people suck at the internet

and why do we care what actors say, again?

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Whyfor are you hating on Jet Li? Do you realize that his movie was a primary cause for the restoration of the Temple? If it weren't for his movie, you'd likely never have heard of this stuff you so desperately want to believe is real. You should be sure to run out and sign up so you can learn the secrets of the Iron Shirt and the Cinnabar Palm! It looks like you already have the Iron Head down pat.

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jet li posted:

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He did not learn Nanquan (Southern fist), because his training focused only in the Northern Shaolin Styles. He has also studied some of wushu's main weapons, such Sanjiegun (Three section staff), Gun (staff), Dao (Broadsword), Jian (Straight sword) and many more.[7]

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GrymmDAOC posted:

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It doesn't matter if it it is on the 'street' or not not. Assuming weapons aren't a factor, if you do not know how to defend a takedown, you are going down. And once you are down, that submission artist is going to break your fucking elbow or shoulder. All the superninja stuff in the world wont help once you are on your back with some dude mounting you.

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eodoll posted:

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street fights are so random... its usually drink idiots and thats why it goes to the ground.

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illmyrin posted:

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Grappling has an advantage over striking in a ring. Fact.

World class BJJ fighters can go full out with their styles in a ring. Fact.

World class strikers can't. People would die.

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eodoll posted:

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grapplers hold back too...they do submission moves rather than break and kill moves.

i recall seeing one fighter get a guy to submit in 30 seconds or something (frank something).. he had to hold back because he couldve snapped his arm just as quick.

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illmyrin posted:

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eodoll posted:

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grapplers hold back too...they do submission moves rather than break and kill moves.

i recall seeing one fighter get a guy to submit in 30 seconds or something (frank something).. he had to hold back because he couldve snapped his arm just as quick.

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I've fought matches where I could have broken people's bones if they didn't tap. That's up to them if they don't want to recognize a checkmate. That's not the sort of holding back I mean. Example, without thinking, if I were to strike you I'd probably hit you dead in the throat with a kick you wont see coming. I have to downshift out of my training so I don't hurt my opponent. BJJ doesn't train you to pop spines with a choke. Your muscle memory doesn't progress into breaks but into check mate locks. You automatically stop before lethality. It's the opposite with striking. I trained real tkd and I trained MMA(JapaneseJJ/BJJ/judo/muay thai ect. MMA is more a sport and as such is becoming perfected against itself in practice against itself. But I have a hard time explaining to MMA fans(which are quite well educated about fighting and styles)that there is a level of martial artist in the world that would straight kill four of your favorite MMA heroes at one time, in real life. It's hard to imagine, but it's paint ball against live fire.

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eodoll posted:

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thats if you can hit a moving target who can defend himself in the neck.

if youre fighting a guy like me that isnt a fighter then its different.

if youre fighting a guy trained to see what youre doing and defend himself them you have to be particularly lucky for him to expose his neck or chin.

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eodoll posted:

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thats if you can hit a moving target who can defend himself in the neck.

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GrilledCheez posted:

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This thread is a tragic display.

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