__Bonk__
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Israel and Palestine were both offered a deal by the US. Israel accepted it. Palestine didnt. Palestine went to war multiple times and lost ever time including its terrorist war
By all rights Israel could take the whole thing and they would have to right to it. After all they won multiple wars and the Palestinians never agreed to the UN partition.
But Israel is giving them some area anyway and putting up with tons of crap for them. To me the Palestinians sound the the dumbest people on the planet.
They should be happy they get ANYTHING
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Yukishiro1
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Israel could have claimed the whole area but it doesn't because then it would have to give rights to the people living there.
Just because it could have claimed all the land doesn't mean it can do anything else it wants to.
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__Bonk__
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By all rights it coulve claimed it all multiple times. The Palestians signed no agreement they dishonorably went to war. They get tons of supplies from Israel and live on the graces of the Israelis yet they try brutal cowarly terrist attacks all the time
The Israelis are way more patient than AMericans wouldve been given the same situation.
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bstulic
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__Bonk__ posted:
Israel and Palestine were both offered a deal by the US. Israel accepted it. Palestine didnt. Palestine went to war multiple times and lost ever time including its terrorist war
By all rights Israel could take the whole thing and they would have to right to it. After all they won multiple wars and the Palestinians never agreed to the UN partition.
But Israel is giving them some area anyway and putting up with tons of crap for them. To me the Palestinians sound the the dumbest people on the planet.
They should be happy they get ANYTHING
You made 17 factual errors there.
For your homework, try to find at correct at least 10
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__Bonk__
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Why is Israel mostly holding to an agreement which the Palestinians reject?
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Yukishiro1
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If Israel had claimed the territories we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Israel won't claim the territories because if it did it would have to either give up its claim to be a democracy or it would have to give palestinians rights.
It won't do either of those things so it can't claim the territories.
If it doesn't claim the land it can't occupy it indefnitely.
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__Bonk__
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I know but I find it funny that the world expects Israel and only Israel to hold to an agreement which both parties especially the Palestinians didnt accept. What a joke.
The truth is most of the world still hates Jews for whatever reason
And the Palestinians are very dishonorable people
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bstulic
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__Bonk__ posted:
Why is Israel mostly holding to an agreement which the Palestinians reject?
If Israeli held agreements, they would not need 317 american vetos in the UN
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__Bonk__
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True there are settlements but Israel doesnt have to give them anything at all.
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Sansfear
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__Bonk__ posted:
Israel and Palestine were both offered a deal by the US. Israel accepted it. Palestine didnt. Palestine went to war multiple times and lost ever time including its terrorist war
The Palestinians didn't really go to war. The Palestinian people were told to leave their lands while the countries that surrounded Israel invaded to wipe out the Jews (whereupon they could go back in and reclaim ALL of Israel, not just their half). When that didn't work out, the Palestinians were left as refugees in other Arab countries (countries that didn't want them) and they've been there ever since.
They've been used as willing pawns by those countries for over 60 years and they have raised multiple generations of children that have been taught from birth to hate the Israelis. That makes them a great place to recruit suicide bombers for their Arab handlers, though.
If they didn't have so much blind hatred for Israel, maybe they'd wake up and see how they are being used repeatedly for the benefit of others who care nothing for the Palestinian people beyond being their willingness to be a tool to be used against Israel.
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bstulic
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__Bonk__ posted:
True there are settlements but Israel doesnt have to give them anything at all.
Noone have to give anyone anything at all.
Thats not how civilized societies should work, though
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__Bonk__
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Israel is still at war. The Palestians and their weak evil neighbors deserve nothing. Most all arab states in the region are very dishonorable and they deserve what they get from Israel.
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paulg_68
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel
Wikipedia posted:
Israel is defined as a Jewish and Democratic State in its Basic Laws
While it's true that Israel claims to be a democratic state it also claims to be a Jewish state.
Being a Jewish state comes first with them and they've never made any secret of that fact.
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Yukishiro1
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You don't have to be a Jew to vote. You just have to live in Israel and satisfy several other criteria.
Israel will never claim the occupied territories because if it did it would have no principled way of not giving the vote to the people living there.
Israel has tried to have it both ways for 40 years now. But it can't do that. You can't perpetually occupy land without claiming it as part of your country. It goes against all our basic notions of international law. And you certainly can't allow your citizens to start permanently settling on that land you don't claim.
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__Bonk__
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I dont like the settlements and I think they should be removed but to be honest Israel given the situation is being pretty nice to the palestinians
I think that Yuki is right about why they dotn take it all. They dont want Palestian citizens to have more votes in their government. Sad situation for everyone
Ironic that Israelis now have to be oppressive to live there.
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paulg_68
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Israel has tried to have it both ways for 40 years now.
No, they haven't. They are first and foremost a Jewish state. They don't make any secret of the fact that that is their priority.
Yukishiro1 posted:
You can't perpetually occupy land without claiming it as part of your country. It goes against all our basic notions of international law.
What do "our basic notions of international law" have to do with Israel?
Yukishiro1 posted:
And you certainly can't allow your citizens to start permanently settling on that land you don't claim.
So you think it's not their land but they should make the laws for it?
Have you really thought that through?
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Yukishiro1
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They are occupying the land. So yes, they're bound to make certain laws to make sure their own citizens don't take that land and appropriate it for their own use illegally.
You cannot perpetually occupy land without claiming it. Every nation in the world - including Israel - now recognizes that basic principle of international law. Which is why Israel is always careful to say it's not a perpetual occupation.
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Bonzoboy1
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The Israelis need to come up with a more humanitarian solution, maybe areas where the Palestinians could be given where they are out of the way, they could call them reservations.
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__Bonk__
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They are occupying nothing since the Palestinians arent agreeing to the Un agreement.
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paulg_68
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Yukishiro1 posted:
They are occupying the land. So yes, they're bound to make certain laws to make sure their own citizens don't take that land and appropriate it for their own use illegally.
You're simultaneously trying to argue that it is their land and that it isn't. Your argument only makes sense if it's both and it's not both. They are mutually exclusive. Pick one or the other and I'll tell you why your argument is wrong.
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Allstarslacker
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No he's not.
He's arguing that they should either claim the land and extend rights to all it's inhabitants, or they should get off of it.
But they won't because they don't want to extend rights to the Arabs living in Palestine. They want to drive the Arabs out first.
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Yukishiro1
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When a foreign power is occupying land it has certain responsibilites with regard to that land it is occupying. Of them being that it is responsible for stopping its citizens from taking stuff from the occupied territories they arn't entitled to. This is pretty basic, obvious stuff. Only Paulg would think trying to say it's not illegal to claim land that doesn't belong to you or your government is a winning argument.
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__Bonk__
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The UN recognizes Israel not Palestine. The borders are still in dispute between teh two peoples. The border suggestions by the UN are just suggestions but Israel is mostly holding to them anyway
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paulg_68
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Yukishiro1 posted:
When a foreign power is occupying land it has certain responsibilites with regard to that land it is occupying. Of them being that it is responsible for stopping its citizens from taking stuff from the occupied territories they arn't entitled to. This is pretty basic, obvious stuff. Only Paulg would think trying to say it's not illegal to claim land that doesn't belong to you or your government is a winning argument.
Who does it belong to?
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Allstarslacker
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Israel
The U.N. is meaningless in this process as long as the U.S. backs Israel.
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Allstarslacker posted:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Israel
The U.N. is meaningless in this process as long as the U.S. backs Israel.
Wow, they just can't keep their claws out of the cookie jar. I guess the holocaust was a big blow to their self esteem and they need someone to bully to feel better about where they stand in the world. Money can't buy you happiness.
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we have a winner of the all-star left wing koolaid drinking contest!
Allstarslacker posted:
No he's not.
He's arguing that they should either claim the land and extend rights to all it's inhabitants, or they should get off of it.
But they won't because they don't want to extend rights to the Arabs living in Palestine. They want to drive the Arabs out first.
if the palistinians want the same rights as other civilized people, they need to stop acting like barbarians.
israel has pulled out of gaza and the golan heights a few times in the past. and every time they did, the nutbar idiot terrorist started firing rockets and mortars into isreal from thosse areas.
also, every time israel has tried to get some sort of peace agreement process going, within 2-4 weeks, idiots set off bombs in israeli civilian areas, or increase the rocket and mortar fire.
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SirGarth
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Allstarslacker posted:
No he's not.
He's arguing that they should either claim the land and extend rights to all it's inhabitants, or they should get off of it.
But they won't because they don't want to extend rights to the Arabs living in Palestine. They want to drive the Arabs out first.
i think you're confusing Israel with Jordan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan#Palestinians_in_Jordan
if Israel just wanted to drive out the Palestinians and take over the territories, they could have done that easily decades ago, their neighbors certainly gave them several opportunities where they would have been justified. Israel also wouldn't have negotiated the return of the Sinai in the peace deal with Egypt, or any of the other lands they've returned.
no question Israel needs to dismantle and reign in the settlers - although it hasn't helped that when Israel has dismantled settlements in the past violence increased and attacks moved closer in.
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Allstarslacker
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Nothing Palestine can do is a real threat to Israel.
Nothing.
If they really want peace they should stop punishing the innocent Palestinians for the actions of the radical fringe.
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uglydwarf
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maybe if the "innocent palestinians" would stop following the "radical fringe" things would improve for them. when they select groups like hamas to represent them, they are supporting and condoning all the terrorist acts done by hamas. also, it's a bit hard for israel to try to make peace with them when the palestinians are teaching their young children that hate and violence are the only way.
Allstarslacker posted:
Nothing Palestine can do is a real threat to Israel.
Nothing.
If they really want peace they should stop punishing the innocent Palestinians for the actions of the radical fringe.
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bstulic
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uglydwarf posted:
maybe if the "innocent palestinians" would stop following the "radical fringe" things would improve for them. when they select groups like hamas to represent them, they are supporting and condoning all the terrorist acts done by hamas. also, it's a bit hard for israel to try to make peace with them when the palestinians are teaching their young children that hate and violence are the only way.
Israel funded and armed Hamas
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Allstarslacker
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What are they supposed to do?
Reject hospitals and schools because of who is building them? Not eat because of who supplies the food?
No one else is offering them anything, so they take what they can get. When you need to survive you do what you have to do.
Again, if Israel really wanted peace they would stop punishing the innocent Palestinians and would find ways to help them. But Israel isn't interested in peace. It's interested in land and resources.
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Crackdoc
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Allstarslacker posted:
What are they supposed to do?
Reject hospitals and schools because of who is building them? Not eat because of who supplies the food?
No one else is offering them anything, so they take what they can get. When you need to survive you do what you have to do.
Again, if Israel really wanted peace they would stop punishing the innocent Palestinians and would find ways to help them. But Israel isn't interested in peace. It's interested in land and resources.
Innocent Palestinians don't have rocket-firing whackos on their rooftops and in their yards.
Stupid ones do, but NOT innocent.
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Clearly we aren't talking about them.
I know it's hard to put a human face on people you wish would just disappear so things would be simpler.
The Germans struggled with it too.
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Crackdoc
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Allstarslacker posted:
Clearly we aren't talking about them.
I know it's hard to put a human face on people you wish would just disappear so things would be simpler.
The Germans struggled with it too.
Veiled allusions to the German persecution of Jews and others isn't a valid argument here.
Palestine, the renamed Judea, was Jewish before and is Jewish now, and that's a fact, Jack.
Had the 'Arab' nations just stfu, practiced a moderate Islam and accepted that condition, things would be smooth sailing.
I would offer the opinion that, were native peoples to start lobbing rockets at nearby cities from their 'Reserves', the US army would put a severe smackdown on them to match anything the Israelis are doing to the Hamas nutcases.
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bstulic
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Crackdoc posted:
Veiled allusions to the German persecution of Jews and others isn't a valid argument here.
Palestine, the renamed Judea, was Jewish before and is Jewish now, and that's a fact, Jack.
Had the 'Arab' nations just stfu, practiced a moderate Islam and accepted that condition, things would be smooth sailing.
I would offer the opinion that, were native peoples to start lobbing rockets at nearby cities from their 'Reserves', the US army would put a severe smackdown on them to match anything the Israelis are doing to the Hamas nutcases.
Fair enough...you could say you support genocide because you like results
of your own genocide and we wouldn't have to argue
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What it was 2000 years ago is irrelevant.
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Crackdoc
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Genocide isn't being practiced here, so stop the idiocy.
And what it was 2000 years ago or last week or yesterday is probably irrelevent - you are correct.
What is it today? That's all that matters.
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I never said it was genocide.
Clearly Israel isn't trying to exterminate all Arabs.
They just want the ones in Palestine to leave.
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Crackdoc
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No, you didn't - I never said you did.
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The jews can do no wrong to these people. It's disgusting.
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Here mi! Let me hear nah u say u can bAaaad me up.
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Mastara
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^^ You mad or what? Tell us what your really feeling
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Boooooommmm Heeeaaaddddshhhhooooottttt! http://www.carellaross.com/img/truth_its_the_new_hate_speech.jpg Mastatheimposta - 10L2 SB Merlin
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bstulic
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Mastara posted:
^^ You mad or what? Tell us what your really feeling
Why you Christians always blame Jews for Christ death?
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Szerek
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bstulic posted:
Mastara posted:
^^ You mad or what? Tell us what your really feeling
Why you Christians always blame Jews for Christ death?
Yeah, shouldn't they really blame Italians?
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"The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it."
"The IQ and the life expectancy of the average American recently passed each other in opposite directions."
- George Carlin
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YouMightSeeMe
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YouMightSeeMe posted:
The jews can do no wrong to these people. It's disgusting.
Let's not go off topic discussing fairy tales.
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