MatrexMistwalker
Posts:
????
Registered:
????
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 0
User ID: 0
|
Subject:
Attorney General Holder: Due Process Doesn't Necessarily Mean a Courtroom
|
After the United States killed Anwar al Awlaki, a U.S. citizen, in a drone strike last year, people had a lot of uncomfortable questions about why that was OK under U.S. law. On Monday, Attorney General Eric Holder tried to answer them without mentioning the specifics of Awlaki's case. He said extrajudicial killings are legal if they are carried out after due process, clarifying that that doesn't necessarily mean a courtroom. Holder didn't mention Awlaki's name except as an influence on underwear bomber Umar Farouk AbdulMutallab, for whom the DOJ recently secured a life sentence. In his prepared remarks (available in full on the U.S. Department of Justice's website), Holder told a crowd at Chicago's Northwestern University Law School that international law and the U.S. Constitution justified lethal force in the face of an imminent threat, and that while citizens had the right to due process, that didn't necessarily mean a trial by jury:
Some have argued that the President is required to get permission from a federal court before taking action against a United States citizen who is a senior operational leader of al Qaeda or associated forces. This is simply not accurate. “Due process†and “judicial process†are not one and the same, particularly when it comes to national security. The Constitution guarantees due process, not judicial process.
Outside of "due process," Holder outlined four requirements the United States has to follow in order to legally kill a citizen:
The principle of necessity requires that the target have definite military value. The principle of distinction requires that only lawful targets – such as combatants, civilians directly participating in hostilities, and military objectives – may be targeted intentionally. Under the principle of proportionality, the anticipated collateral damage must not be excessive in relation to the anticipated military advantage. Finally, the principle of humanity requires us to use weapons that will not inflict unnecessary suffering.
Holder's remarks didn't address how Awlaki's case met those requirements. Essentially, he said, we'll have to trust that the government knows what it's doing. That didn't satisfy the ACLU, which criticized the speech in an emailed statement: "Few things are as dangerous to American liberty as the proposition that the government should be able to kill citizens anywhere in the world on the basis of legal standards and evidence that are never submitted to a court, either before or after the fact. Anyone willing to trust President Obama with the power to secretly declare an American citizen an enemy of the state and order his extrajudicial killing should ask whether they would be willing to trust the next president with that dangerous power," Hina Shamsi, director of the ACLU's National Security Project, said in the statement.
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2012/03/holder-due-process-doesnt-necessarily-mean-courtroom/49509/
================
If its been posted before I apologize...
This kind of stuff scares me, I wonder what else has been twisted that didnt get caught.
-----signature-----
|
|
Link to this post
|
Allstarslacker
Posts:
9,760
Registered:
May 23, '06
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 9,653
User ID: 1,140,793
|
Subject:
Attorney General Holder: Due Process Doesn't Necessarily Mean a Courtroom
|
Due process for a U.S. citizen is a courtroom and a jury of their peers. Nothing else.
If you are accused of breaking the law you have a right to make your case against such an accusation before punishment is dispensed.
-----signature-----
(none)
|
|
Link to this post
|
Koneg
Title: Evil Genius
Posts:
31,388
Registered:
Dec 4, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 28,579
User ID: 530,943
|
Subject:
Attorney General Holder: Due Process Doesn't Necessarily Mean a Courtroom
|
MatrexMistwalker posted:
This kind of stuff scares me
And yet your sig says...
"A hero is someone that sees what needs to be done, and does his duty no matter the personal cost."
The asshole took up arms against his own country, and was actively encouraging and enabling others to do the same. He was the very definition of a traitor - which as a reminder is a capital crime.
Awlaki had ample opportunity to return to the US and face the charges against him. Several years and a few close calls in fact. He chose not to, so we shoved a missile up his ass. /props to Obama for having the nads to follow through on it.
-----signature-----
* First rule of a gun fight: Have a gun.
|
"Any sufficiently advanced idiocy is
indistinguishable from trolling." -- Arthur C Clarke
|
|
Link to this post
|
Rosaria
Title: They call me Mellow Yellow, quite rightly.
Posts:
46,983
Registered:
Aug 22, '03
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 44,486
User ID: 832,524
|
Subject:
Attorney General Holder: Due Process Doesn't Necessarily Mean a Courtroom
|
|
So if someone grabbed Holder by the scruff of his neck and kicked his ass for being a stupid fuck who lies constantly that would be justice, right?
-----signature-----
"Them Bollinger Bands on the DJIA are starting to look like columns of projectile vomit." ~ Red Pill
|
|
Link to this post
|
Yukishiro1
Posts:
38,362
Registered:
Sep 20, '02
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 31,453
User ID: 718,633
|
Subject:
Attorney General Holder: Due Process Doesn't Necessarily Mean a Courtroom
|
Well actually due process can be different things depending on the situation. For example when it's welfare benefits involved you don't 100% need to get a judicial determination before cutting them off IIRC. Although in the criminal context I agree a jury and courtroom is pretty much required.
Also when the us citizen is in another country not reachable by us judicial process that raises different issues potentially. If some US citizen is in another country actively engaged in attacking the US I think the military is justified in treating that person like it would any other person making war against the US. Where things get murky is when they're probably doing illegal stuff in another country but not actually attacking us.
-----signature-----
(none)
|
|
Link to this post
|
Szerek
Posts:
4,747
Registered:
Aug 8, '00
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 4,343
User ID: 38,666
|
Subject:
Attorney General Holder: Due Process Doesn't Necessarily Mean a Courtroom
|
Koneg posted:
MatrexMistwalker posted:
This kind of stuff scares me
And yet your sig says...
"A hero is someone that sees what needs to be done, and does his duty no matter the personal cost."
The asshole took up arms against his own country, and was actively encouraging and enabling others to do the same. He was the very definition of a traitor - which as a reminder is a capital crime.
Awlaki had ample opportunity to return to the US and face the charges against him. Several years and a few close calls in fact. He chose not to, so we shoved a missile up his ass. /props to Obama for having the nads to follow through on it.
So to sum up your post: Due process only applies when the government says it does.
-----signature-----
"The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it."
"The IQ and the life expectancy of the average American recently passed each other in opposite directions."
- George Carlin
|
|
Link to this post
|
Thugoneous
Title: Watching Caliente, BRB.
Posts:
6,060
Registered:
Nov 2, '02
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 5,795
User ID: 734,292
|
Subject:
Attorney General Holder: Due Process Doesn't Necessarily Mean a Courtroom
|
|
The guy was actively trying to kill American's. It's like telling police not to fire at a house when they're being shot at.
-----signature-----
Lady, people aren't chocolates. D'you know what they are mostly? Bastards. Bastard-coated bastards with bastard filling.
|
|
Link to this post
|
Bjorvald
Posts:
9,251
Registered:
Apr 5, '02
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 8,849
User ID: 665,468
|
Subject:
Attorney General Holder: Due Process Doesn't Necessarily Mean a Courtroom
|
I have no sympathy whatsoever for that dirtbag. Sucks to be a terrorist, doesn't it?
I am uncomfortable with the process though. It turns the whole "innocent until proven guilty in a court of law" idea on its head.
-----signature-----
Bjorvald 9lx healer
Blinknone, various toons on classic
GANKED AGAIN
|
|
Link to this post
|
Yukishiro1
Posts:
38,362
Registered:
Sep 20, '02
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 31,453
User ID: 718,633
|
Subject:
Attorney General Holder: Due Process Doesn't Necessarily Mean a Courtroom
|
Bjorvald posted:
I am uncomfortable with the process though. It turns the whole "innocent until proven guilty in a court of law" idea on its head.
When you're hiding in a foreign country attacking the US and refusing to turn yourself in I'm not sure you can cry about due process.
If they start going around doing this without charging the guy first and putting out a warrant for his arrest and waiting X amount of time I agree it's bad news. And I don't like it either way. But if they have proof to charge the guy with a crime and they do charge the guy and the guy keeps on attacking americans instead of turning himsefl in for trial I don't know that he really gets to complain about not getting a trial.
-----signature-----
(none)
|
|
Link to this post
|
Allstarslacker
Posts:
9,760
Registered:
May 23, '06
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 9,653
User ID: 1,140,793
|
Subject:
Attorney General Holder: Due Process Doesn't Necessarily Mean a Courtroom
|
Was there proof given that he was doing that?
-----signature-----
(none)
|
|
Link to this post
|
Yukishiro1
Posts:
38,362
Registered:
Sep 20, '02
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 31,453
User ID: 718,633
|
Subject:
Attorney General Holder: Due Process Doesn't Necessarily Mean a Courtroom
|
My understanding was they put out a warrant for his arrest and had proof to charge him in a trial. If that's true I don't think he can really complain about his right to a jury trial being violated when it's his own fault because he refused to turn himself in and insisted on hiding in a foreign country where us law enfrocement jurisdiction doesn't reach.
If they don't do all that stuff first I am not ok with it.
-----signature-----
(none)
|
|
Link to this post
|
Allstarslacker
Posts:
9,760
Registered:
May 23, '06
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 9,653
User ID: 1,140,793
|
Subject:
Attorney General Holder: Due Process Doesn't Necessarily Mean a Courtroom
|
Did they contact the authorities for the area he was suspected of being in to apprehend him?
Did they try to apprehend him at all?
-----signature-----
(none)
|
|
Link to this post
|
Koneg
Title: Evil Genius
Posts:
31,388
Registered:
Dec 4, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 28,579
User ID: 530,943
|
Subject:
Attorney General Holder: Due Process Doesn't Necessarily Mean a Courtroom
|
Allstarslacker posted:
Was there proof given that he was doing that?
I'm guessing the numerous videos he released, letters he wrote, and emails he sent should have been enough to convince anyone of his guilt - since he was so frikken proud of it himself.
Allstarslacker posted:
Did they contact the authorities for the area he was suspected of being in to apprehend him?
Did they try to apprehend him at all?
Yes and yes. He was hiding in Yemen, and even Yemen tried to kill him once.
-----signature-----
* First rule of a gun fight: Have a gun.
|
"Any sufficiently advanced idiocy is
indistinguishable from trolling." -- Arthur C Clarke
|
|
Link to this post
|
DemonicXH
Title: Camelot Vault Staff
News Editor
Posts:
3,822
Registered:
Dec 1, '03
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 3,766
User ID: 863,352
|
Subject:
Attorney General Holder: Due Process Doesn't Necessarily Mean a Courtroom
|
|
I am sure Yuki can answer this but can the U.S. court system convict people like Al-Awaki in absentia?
-----signature-----
(none)
|
|
Link to this post
|
Allstarslacker
Posts:
9,760
Registered:
May 23, '06
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 9,653
User ID: 1,140,793
|
Subject:
Attorney General Holder: Due Process Doesn't Necessarily Mean a Courtroom
|
What method was used to determine that those were in fact made by him?
Should we kill domestic criminals if they elude capture?
-----signature-----
(none)
|
|
Link to this post
|
Yukishiro1
Posts:
38,362
Registered:
Sep 20, '02
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 31,453
User ID: 718,633
|
Subject:
Attorney General Holder: Due Process Doesn't Necessarily Mean a Courtroom
|
Allstarslacker posted:
Should we kill domestic criminals if they elude capture?
Depends what they did. If they're clearly a continued threat to everyone and there's no realistic way to bring them into custody without killing them...I dunno. It's a hard call to make.
-----signature-----
(none)
|
|
Link to this post
|
Allstarslacker
Posts:
9,760
Registered:
May 23, '06
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 9,653
User ID: 1,140,793
|
Subject:
Attorney General Holder: Due Process Doesn't Necessarily Mean a Courtroom
|
How can you determine them to be a threat if you haven't determined they've done anything wrong?
-----signature-----
(none)
|
|
Link to this post
|
Yukishiro1
Posts:
38,362
Registered:
Sep 20, '02
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 31,453
User ID: 718,633
|
Subject:
Attorney General Holder: Due Process Doesn't Necessarily Mean a Courtroom
|
Well, the fact they refuse to submit to trial and publish a bunch of videos bragging about their cimes should probably give you a clue.
If you're charged with a serious violent crime and run away from the police they're allowed to use deadly force to bring you in if required. I'm not sure this is really all that different. In the circumstances there really was no realistic alternative.
If the guy wasn't a US citizen no one would care. I'm not sure why him being a citizen really makes much of a difference in this case.
-----signature-----
(none)
|
|
Link to this post
|
Allstarslacker
Posts:
9,760
Registered:
May 23, '06
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 9,653
User ID: 1,140,793
|
Subject:
Attorney General Holder: Due Process Doesn't Necessarily Mean a Courtroom
|
They are not allowed to kill you unless you're trying to kill them regardless of what you're charged with.
Refusing to submit to a trial is not evidence of guilt.
It makes a difference because one of the responsibilities of the government is to protect the rights of it's citizens.
-----signature-----
(none)
|
|
Link to this post
|
Malloci
Posts:
????
Registered:
????
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 0
User ID: 0
|
Subject:
Attorney General Holder: Due Process Doesn't Necessarily Mean a Courtroom
|
|
Could you imagine the protests going on right now if bush was president and john ashcroft or alberto gonzales announced that it was just fine to target american citizens with drone strikes? People lost their minds with the patriot act, whether that guy deserved what he got or not the precedent is unheard of and very scary.
-----signature-----
|
|
Link to this post
|
Yukishiro1
Posts:
38,362
Registered:
Sep 20, '02
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 31,453
User ID: 718,633
|
Subject:
Attorney General Holder: Due Process Doesn't Necessarily Mean a Courtroom
|
If you are accused of a serious violent crime and evade arrest law enforcement is absolutely allowed to kill you if they have to. They're supposed to try to capture you without killing you if at all possible but when there's no realistic way of doing that they're allowed to shoot you rather than let you get away. I don't know why you think they don't have that right.
-----signature-----
(none)
|
|
Link to this post
|
__Bonk__
Posts:
53,947
Registered:
Jul 25, '09
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 53,339
User ID: 1,364,654
|
Subject:
Attorney General Holder: Due Process Doesn't Necessarily Mean a Courtroom
|
The US is slowly becoming more and more unfree. Both political parties are to blame plus most people who really dont care
-----signature-----
I keep my eyes fixed on the sun!
A change in feeling is a change in destiny.
|
|
Link to this post
|
Malloci
Posts:
????
Registered:
????
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 0
User ID: 0
|
Subject:
Attorney General Holder: Due Process Doesn't Necessarily Mean a Courtroom
|
|
And you live in the united states? you watch too much justified.
-----signature-----
|
|
Link to this post
|
Yukishiro1
Posts:
38,362
Registered:
Sep 20, '02
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 31,453
User ID: 718,633
|
Subject:
Attorney General Holder: Due Process Doesn't Necessarily Mean a Courtroom
|
I am not sure the freedom to run away from a valid arrest and trial and try to kill other americans instead is really a freedom that is high on my list of important freedoms to have.
Like I said, if they're killing people without a valid arrest and charges that's different. Or killing people who arn't an ongoign threat in any meaningful way.
If they have those things and you insist on hanging out in a mountain fort in some foreign country I have trouble feeling sorry for you if you get blown up or feeling like your rights have been egregiously violated.
-----signature-----
(none)
|
|
Link to this post
|
Altra_Shadowstalker
Posts:
17,553
Registered:
Jan 17, '02
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 16,076
User ID: 616,837
|
Subject:
Attorney General Holder: Due Process Doesn't Necessarily Mean a Courtroom
|
The only time police are allowed to use deadly force on someone fleeing is if the suspect is trying to gain a tactical advantage to further attack. ie, running to cover so you can open fire from safety.
I wish we had a more moderate political tone. I should like to see Obama or Holder impeached for this, but not if Biden, Romney, Paul, or Santorum take his place. We should have votes of no confidence or something. Need 2/3s vote and then another election ensues. Though I'm not sure the country would benefit from more elections, and it would be a total disaster in our current climate/system.
-----signature-----
"Goddammit, Swearengen, I don't trust you as far as I could th'ow you, but I enjoy the way you lie."
I don't typo often, but when I do, I blame Swype.
|
|
Link to this post
|
Yukishiro1
Posts:
38,362
Registered:
Sep 20, '02
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 31,453
User ID: 718,633
|
Subject:
Attorney General Holder: Due Process Doesn't Necessarily Mean a Courtroom
|
Altra_Shadowstalker posted:
The only time police are allowed to use deadly force on someone fleeing is if the suspect is trying to gain a tactical advantage to further attack. ie, running to cover so you can open fire from safety.
Are you just talking about what you personally think? Because that is not the law.
If you shoot someone in front of a police officer and then run away and don't pay attention to the officer's orders to surrender they can shoot you in the back.
-----signature-----
(none)
|
|
Link to this post
|
Allstarslacker
Posts:
9,760
Registered:
May 23, '06
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 9,653
User ID: 1,140,793
|
Subject:
Attorney General Holder: Due Process Doesn't Necessarily Mean a Courtroom
|
Yukishiro1 posted:
I am not sure the freedom to run away from a valid arrest and trial and try to kill other americans instead is really a freedom that is high on my list of important freedoms to have.
Like I said, if they're killing people without a valid arrest and charges that's different. Or killing people who arn't an ongoign threat in any meaningful way.
If they have those things and you insist on hanging out in a mountain fort in some foreign country I have trouble feeling sorry for you if you get blown up or feeling like your rights have been egregiously violated.
I'm more worried about the rights of U.S. citizens than I am killing one man.
Keep in mind the entire world, including the United States, has been designated as the theater for the war on terror.
How long before we see domestic drone attacks to kill U.S. citizens accused of similar things?
-----signature-----
(none)
|
|
Link to this post
|
Yukishiro1
Posts:
38,362
Registered:
Sep 20, '02
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 31,453
User ID: 718,633
|
Subject:
Attorney General Holder: Due Process Doesn't Necessarily Mean a Courtroom
|
Well, suppose you've got some guys fortified in some bunker with machine guns up in the appalachians refusing to submit to valid arrest. Are you really saying the police or the military arn't allowed to go blow up the bunker if they have to? Suppose you know for a fact that if you try to make a non-deadly arrest you're going to be greeted with machine gun fire and it's pretty much guaranteed multiple officers are going to die. I am as pro civil liberties as the next guy but in that situation I don't see how you can tell the police they have to die to safeguard the suspect's rights when the suspect is pointing a machine gun at them and clearly is not going to go quietly.
-----signature-----
(none)
|
|
Link to this post
|
Allstarslacker
Posts:
9,760
Registered:
May 23, '06
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 9,653
User ID: 1,140,793
|
Subject:
Attorney General Holder: Due Process Doesn't Necessarily Mean a Courtroom
|
In that situation I think a siege is in order.
Nothing goes in or out.
I do not think indiscriminately killing everyone inside would be the appropriate action.
Also, how do you feel about what happened in Waco with the Branch Davidians?
-----signature-----
(none)
|
|
Link to this post
|
Altra_Shadowstalker
Posts:
17,553
Registered:
Jan 17, '02
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 16,076
User ID: 616,837
|
Subject:
Attorney General Holder: Due Process Doesn't Necessarily Mean a Courtroom
|
Yukishiro1 posted:
Altra_Shadowstalker posted:
The only time police are allowed to use deadly force on someone fleeing is if the suspect is trying to gain a tactical advantage to further attack. ie, running to cover so you can open fire from safety.
Are you just talking about what you personally think? Because that is not the law.
If you shoot someone in front of a police officer and then run away and don't pay attention to the officer's orders to surrender they can shoot you in the back.
I should have said someone unarmed and fleeing. If you shoot someone in front of a cop, expect to be put down before you can put the gun down. If you shoot someone, throw the gun down and run, they're not justified in shooting you. I'm sure a cop would know how to talk themselves out of charges, but it's not a justified shot, technically.
-----signature-----
"Goddammit, Swearengen, I don't trust you as far as I could th'ow you, but I enjoy the way you lie."
I don't typo often, but when I do, I blame Swype.
|
|
Link to this post
|
Yukishiro1
Posts:
38,362
Registered:
Sep 20, '02
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 31,453
User ID: 718,633
|
Subject:
Attorney General Holder: Due Process Doesn't Necessarily Mean a Courtroom
|
Well, maybe, maybe not. If you are still an obvious danger to society they have a right to shoot you. If you just threw down the weapon that's probably a sign you arn't a danger, but it really depends on the situation.
In general the cops are allowed to shoot a fleeing violent felon who is a continued danger to society if they have to to prevent him escaping.
-----signature-----
(none)
|
|
Link to this post
|
MatrexMistwalker
Posts:
????
Registered:
????
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 0
User ID: 0
|
Subject:
Attorney General Holder: Due Process Doesn't Necessarily Mean a Courtroom
|
|
I dont shed tears over his death... im appaled at the process that led to it... "cliche here" slippery slope and all that..
-----signature-----
|
|
Link to this post
|
Bonzoboy1
Posts:
7,090
Registered:
Aug 1, '08
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 7,015
User ID: 1,312,136
|
Subject:
Attorney General Holder: Due Process Doesn't Necessarily Mean a Courtroom
|
Yukishiro1 posted:
Well, suppose you've got some guys fortified in some bunker with machine guns up in the appalachians refusing to submit to valid arrest. Are you really saying the police or the military arn't allowed to go blow up the bunker if they have to? Suppose you know for a fact that if you try to make a non-deadly arrest you're going to be greeted with machine gun fire and it's pretty much guaranteed multiple officers are going to die. I am as pro civil liberties as the next guy but in that situation I don't see how you can tell the police they have to die to safeguard the suspect's rights when the suspect is pointing a machine gun at them and clearly is not going to go quietly.
That has some eery similarities to Ruby Ridge where the feds shot and killed a 12 year old boy and an unarmed woman holding a newborn, all because they were afraid of serving a warrant for selling a sawed off shotgun.
-----signature-----
Politicians are like diapers, they should be changed often and for the same reason.
|
|
Link to this post
|
Koneg
Title: Evil Genius
Posts:
31,388
Registered:
Dec 4, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 28,579
User ID: 530,943
|
Subject:
Attorney General Holder: Due Process Doesn't Necessarily Mean a Courtroom
|
Bonzoboy1 posted:
That has some eery similarities to Ruby Ridge where the feds shot and killed a 12 year old boy who was shooting at them with a rifle and had just helped kill a US Marshal
Fixed that for you.
-----signature-----
* First rule of a gun fight: Have a gun.
|
"Any sufficiently advanced idiocy is
indistinguishable from trolling." -- Arthur C Clarke
|
|
Link to this post
|
sweeny_comodore
Posts:
9,066
Registered:
Aug 23, '07
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 8,113
User ID: 1,248,480
|
Subject:
Attorney General Holder: Due Process Doesn't Necessarily Mean a Courtroom
|
|
it is time to take up arms against a tyranical government that no longer upholds the law of our land.
-----signature-----
Jesus? No, but there is indeed a god shaped hole in the heart of man, why is yours so empty? -- snarf igraine the original monotheism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phallus
|
|
Link to this post
|
the_great_intex
Title: This is what cool looks like
Posts:
30,622
Registered:
Jun 27, '02
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 27,363
User ID: 692,453
|
Subject:
Attorney General Holder: Due Process Doesn't Necessarily Mean a Courtroom
|
|
AG Holder should be in prison for numerous things. Being a total lying asshole should be chalked right up there too
-----signature-----
Only those who dare to fail greatly, can ever achieve greatly
In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity
The only thing in life achieved without effort is failure
Time Circuits... On. Flux Capacitor.... fluxxing.
|
|
Link to this post
|
Bonzoboy1
Posts:
7,090
Registered:
Aug 1, '08
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 7,015
User ID: 1,312,136
|
Subject:
Attorney General Holder: Due Process Doesn't Necessarily Mean a Courtroom
|
Koneg posted:
Bonzoboy1 posted:
That has some eery similarities to Ruby Ridge where the feds shot and killed a 12 year old boy who was shooting at them with a rifle and had just helped kill a US Marshal
Fixed that for you.
He shot an unidentified man in camouflage who had just killed his dog with an M-16, he was then shot in the back as he ran away.
-----signature-----
Politicians are like diapers, they should be changed often and for the same reason.
|
|
Link to this post
|
