bstulic
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Jewish settlers have seized dozens of natural springs in the occupied West Bank, barring Palestinian
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http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/19/us-palestinians-israel-water-idUSBRE82I0TT20120319
Palestinians say settlements, considered illegal by the International Court of Justice (ICJ), the highest U.N. legal body for disputes, would deny them a viable state.
Israel cites historical and Biblical links to the West Bank and says the status of settlements should be decided in peace negotiations.
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Eager_Igraine
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Jewish settlers have seized dozens of natural springs in the occupied West Bank, barring Palestinian
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Settlers seem to do what they want and don't have a problem occupying lands belonging to other folks. They are often surprised at how violent and intolerant those other folks behave though.
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Yukishiro1
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Israel's unwillingness to do anything about the illegal settlements is its biggest moral failing. It puts the lie to so much well-meaning rhetoric from the less hawkish israelis and israel supporters about a meaningful two-state solution.
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Bonzoboy1
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The ICJ. 
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Z-Elder
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Jewish settlers have seized dozens of natural springs in the occupied West Bank, barring Palestinian
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"Jewish settlers have seized dozens of natural springs" Dozens?? The israelis have taken everything and anything worthwhile in the west bank. If it has moisture in it or near it there is a bulldozer near it or coming to it.
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Eager_Igraine
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Jewish settlers have seized dozens of natural springs in the occupied West Bank, barring Palestinian
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Israel's unwillingness to do anything about the illegal settlements is its biggest moral failing. It puts the lie to so much well-meaning rhetoric from the less hawkish israelis and israel supporters about a meaningful two-state solution.
agreed.
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paulg_68
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Subject:
Jewish settlers have seized dozens of natural springs in the occupied West Bank, barring Palestinian
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Israel's unwillingness to do anything about the illegal settlements is its biggest moral failing.
What makes these settlements illegal?
What law are they violating?
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Phlegm573
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Subject:
Jewish settlers have seized dozens of natural springs in the occupied West Bank, barring Palestinian
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paulg_68 posted:
What makes these settlements illegal?
What law are they violating?
I hear that people don't much cotton to the religion of most Israelis.
Oh, I'm just being overly sensitive again. Always playing the anti-semitism card for no reason. I should have read the subject line of this thread more carefully, where it said "Israeli settlers have seized dozens of natural springs"
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Eager_Igraine
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Subject:
Jewish settlers have seized dozens of natural springs in the occupied West Bank, barring Palestinian
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paulg_68 posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
Israel's unwillingness to do anything about the illegal settlements is its biggest moral failing.
What makes these settlements illegal?
What law are they violating?
IANAL:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement
posted:
An Israeli settlement is a Jewish civilian community built on land that was captured by Israel from Jordan, Egypt or Syria during the 1967 Six-Day War. Such settlements currently exist in the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and in the Golan Heights. Settlements also existed in the Sinai and Gaza Strip until Israel evacuated the Sinai settlements following the 1979 Israel-Egypt peace agreement and unilaterally disengaged from the Gaza Strip in 2005. Israel dismantled 18 settlements in the Sinai Peninsula in 1982, and all 21 in the Gaza Strip and 4 in the West Bank in 2005.[1]
The international community considers the settlements in occupied territory to be illegal.[2] Israeli neighborhoods in East Jerusalem and communities in the Golan Heights, areas which have been annexed by Israel, are also considered settlements by the international community, which does not recognise Israel's annexations of these territories.[3] The United Nations has repeatedly upheld the view that Israel's construction of settlements constitutes violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention.[4]
The International Court of Justice[5] also says these settlements are illegal,[6][7] and no foreign government supports Israel's settlements.[8]
However, the Palestinian national leaders Yassir Arafat and Mahmoud Abbas have agreed to a land swap under The Clinton Parameters which will allow approximately 80% of the settlers to stay and up to 3% of the West Bank's land to be given to Israel, so long as the nascent Palestinian state receives 97% of the West Bank as its borders currently exist, plus compensation for this 3% or less of the land.[9][10] Israel disputes the position of the international community and the legal arguments that were used to declare the settlements illegal.[11]
As of December 2010, 327,750 Israelis live in the 121 officially-recognised settlements in the West Bank, 192,000 Israelis live in settlements in East Jerusalem and over 20,000 live in settlements in the Golan Heights.[12][13] Settlements range in character from farming communities and frontier villages to urban suburbs and neighborhoods. The three largest settlements, Modi'in Illit, Maale Adumim and Betar Illit, have achieved city status, with over 30,000 residents each.
Israeli policies toward these settlements have ranged from active promotion to removal by force.[14] Since the signing of the Oslo Accords in 1993, no new settlements have been established in the occupied territories.[15] However, the ongoing expansion of existing settlements by Israel and the construction of settlement outposts is frequently criticized as an obstacle to the peace process by the United Nations[16] and third parties, including the United Kingdom,[17] the European Union,[18] and the United States.[16]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_law_and_Israeli_settlements
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Crackdoc
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Subject:
Jewish settlers have seized dozens of natural springs in the occupied West Bank, barring Palestinian
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I've heard they are stockpiling Slinky toys also - they must be going to spring something in an Arab Spring campaign of their own.
The suspense is tangible.
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Yukishiro1
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Jewish settlers have seized dozens of natural springs in the occupied West Bank, barring Palestinian
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Uh, claiming land that isn't yours and building on it is illegal. HTH Paul.
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Crackdoc
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Jewish settlers have seized dozens of natural springs in the occupied West Bank, barring Palestinian
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Uh, claiming land that isn't yours and building on it is illegal. HTH Paul.
A WHOLE lotta Yankees going to up and leave Yuki?
Nope! Thought not.
Owners keepers.
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paulg_68
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Subject:
Jewish settlers have seized dozens of natural springs in the occupied West Bank, barring Palestinian
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Uh, claiming land that isn't yours and building on it is illegal. HTH Paul.
Whose land is it?
You have to violate someone's law for something to be illegal.
HTH.
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Yukishiro1
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Subject:
Jewish settlers have seized dozens of natural springs in the occupied West Bank, barring Palestinian
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Well, Israel's own laws, if you want to get stupid about it. And 99% of the time Israel does nothing about it.
It also violates the laws of the 1948 un partition.
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paulg_68
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So it's Israels land then. Which Israeli law does it violate?
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Crackdoc
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Subject:
Jewish settlers have seized dozens of natural springs in the occupied West Bank, barring Palestinian
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Like all matters political, depends who you ask or cite -> http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Blogs/Message.aspx/4801
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imaloon1
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Subject:
Jewish settlers have seized dozens of natural springs in the occupied West Bank, barring Palestinian
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paulg_68 posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
Israel's unwillingness to do anything about the illegal settlements is its biggest moral failing.
What makes these settlements illegal?
What law are they violating?
Their original borders and even their post '67 borders don't include this area, they stole it fair and square and are doing their best to starve the Palestinians out.
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Yukishiro1
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Jewish settlers have seized dozens of natural springs in the occupied West Bank, barring Palestinian
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It isn't Israel's land. That's the whole point. Even ISRAEL doesn't say it's Israel's land.
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paulg_68
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Jewish settlers have seized dozens of natural springs in the occupied West Bank, barring Palestinian
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So you think they're violating a Palestinian law?
It's weird that all the people who say it's illegal can't point to a specific law that is being violated.
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Yukishiro1
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Jewish settlers have seized dozens of natural springs in the occupied West Bank, barring Palestinian
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They are violating pretty much everyone's laws. International law, israeli law (which doesn't let people settle in the occupied territories, because they're military zones), palestinian law (which doesn't let random people just come and randomly claim land in their territory). It would be hard to find a relevant community whose laws they ARN'T violating.
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bstulic
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Subject:
Jewish settlers have seized dozens of natural springs in the occupied West Bank, barring Palestinian
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Yukishiro1 posted:
They are violating pretty much everyone's laws. International law, israeli law (which doesn't let people settle in the occupied territories, because they're military zones), palestinian law (which doesn't let random people just come and randomly claim land in their territory). It would be hard to find a relevant community whose laws they ARN'T violating.
In before Paulg comes...
Yeas, but thats too broad. What EXACT law they broke, please, law, paragraph, point...
We surely have at least 15 specialists in international law here (it would be 16 if you didn't
scare ET away, btw)
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bstulic
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bstulic posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
They are violating pretty much everyone's laws. International law, israeli law (which doesn't let people settle in the occupied territories, because they're military zones), palestinian law (which doesn't let random people just come and randomly claim land in their territory). It would be hard to find a relevant community whose laws they ARN'T violating.
In before Paulg comes...
Yea, but thats too broad. What EXACT law they broke, please, law, paragraph, point...
We surely have at least 15 specialists in international law here (it would be 16 if you didn't
scare ET away, btw)
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Sansfear
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Jewish settlers have seized dozens of natural springs in the occupied West Bank, barring Palestinian
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Wars tend to change borders.
If you invade someone and they kick your ass and push you back into your own territory, you lose the rights to that land unless the defender decides to give it back.
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Yukishiro1
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Jewish settlers have seized dozens of natural springs in the occupied West Bank, barring Palestinian
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This isn't about that. Israel doesn't claim the land the settlers are on is part of Israel. We've been over this. Try to keep up.
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__Bonk__
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Jewish settlers have seized dozens of natural springs in the occupied West Bank, barring Palestinian
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The palestinians never officially agreed to the partion of the lands
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Yukishiro1
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Jewish settlers have seized dozens of natural springs in the occupied West Bank, barring Palestinian
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Doesn't matter. That land belongs to someone, and it's clearly not your own government because they expressly disavow owning it. You can't just waltz in and claim it and start building crap on it without permission.
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__Bonk__
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It does matter. They agreed to NOTHING.
They agreed to nothign and went to war. This is the end result.
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Yukishiro1
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Subject:
Jewish settlers have seized dozens of natural springs in the occupied West Bank, barring Palestinian
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No, it matters tremendously. It isn't Israel's land they're on. Not according to some notion of justice. According to Israel ITSELF.
Israeli settlers have no right to go onto some other country's land and settle there. Under either Israeli law or the law of that country.
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bstulic
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__Bonk__ posted:
The palestinians never officially agreed to the partion of the lands
They did...then Israeli terrorists killed UN envoy who negotiated it
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I used to be amazed that so many Americans, in particular those who bleat loudest about freedom and personal responsibility, not to mention the self proclaimed christians....support theft, war crimes, violation of international treaties (which under US, Israeli, and almost every other nation on earth are considered as, and enforced as, laws once ratified), and displacement of occupied people by their subjugating slave masters.
I'm not amazed any more. I accept the fact that most Americans are totally full of shit.
Every time a "libertarian" or a "christian" opens their mouth and defends such bull shit, they expose the hypocrisy of their self proclaimed affiliation and illustrate that their words are hollow. They are liars.
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bstulic
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Ptilk posted:
They are liars.
Just stupid or brainwashed. Look at Bonk
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Ptilk
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forget it. Not worth the effort
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Galois2005
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I don't care.
When the mainstream media gives the genocides in Africa even a small percentage of the attention it sheds on this pissant part of the world I might, until then piss off with this crap.
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bstulic
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Galois2005 posted:
I don't care.
When the mainstream media gives the genocides in Africa even a small percentage of the attention it sheds on this pissant part of the world I might, until then piss off with this crap.
Unfortunately, stakes here are higher
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Bonzoboy1
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Israel should just stick with the 1973 borders and turn the rest over to the Palestinians, from then on Israel could treat Palestine just like any other country, any attack on Israel from inside Palestine's borders would be an act of war.
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Subject:
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bstulic posted:
Galois2005 posted:
I don't care.
When the mainstream media gives the genocides in Africa even a small percentage of the attention it sheds on this pissant part of the world I might, until then piss off with this crap.
Unfortunately, stakes here are higher
Why?
Call me when they start tossing nukes around, until then - don't care, it's a petty tenant dispute.
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bstulic
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Jewish settlers have seized dozens of natural springs in the occupied West Bank, barring Palestinian
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Galois2005 posted:
bstulic posted:
Galois2005 posted:
I don't care.
When the mainstream media gives the genocides in Africa even a small percentage of the attention it sheds on this pissant part of the world I might, until then piss off with this crap.
Unfortunately, stakes here are higher
Why?
Call me when they start tossing nukes around, until then - don't care, it's a petty tenant dispute.
Because they WOULD start tossing nukes...if you're from USA maybe you don't care, but some of us live closer
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paulg_68
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Jewish settlers have seized dozens of natural springs in the occupied West Bank, barring Palestinian
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Doesn't matter. That land belongs to someone
If you don't know who, then how do you know who has jurisdiction to make laws there about who can settle the land?
Step 1: Figure out whose land it is.
Step 2: Figure out if that state has a law against Jewish settlers.
Until you've completed both of those steps you don't really know if the settlements are illegal.
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bstulic
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paulg_68 posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
Doesn't matter. That land belongs to someone
If you don't know who, then how do you know who has jurisdiction to make laws there about who can settle the land?
Step 1: Figure out whose land it is.
Step 2: Figure out if that state has a law against Jewish settlers.
Until you've completed both of those steps you don't really know if the settlements are illegal.
Paul is obviously a Jew, he uses same semantics to avoid the problem
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Bonzoboy1
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I've noticed that Israel has Arabs living in it do Jews live in Palestine?
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Yukishiro1
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Subject:
Jewish settlers have seized dozens of natural springs in the occupied West Bank, barring Palestinian
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Israel has laws against jewish settlers claiming land in the occupied territories. So does the PA. What do I win?
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paulg_68
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Subject:
Jewish settlers have seized dozens of natural springs in the occupied West Bank, barring Palestinian
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Step 1: /fail
Nice try Yuki.
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Yukishiro1
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Subject:
Jewish settlers have seized dozens of natural springs in the occupied West Bank, barring Palestinian
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I'm sorry you're too stupid to realize it's illegal no matter how you characterize the situation. Both Israel and Palestine have laws against unauthorized appropriation of land that is now occupied by Israel but owned by the PA.
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paulg_68
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Subject:
Jewish settlers have seized dozens of natural springs in the occupied West Bank, barring Palestinian
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And which of those countries does the land belong to? Either of them? If not then why would their laws matter?
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Eager_Igraine
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Subject:
Jewish settlers have seized dozens of natural springs in the occupied West Bank, barring Palestinian
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Both Israel and Palestine have laws against unauthorized appropriation of land that is now occupied by Israel but owned by the PA.
paulg_68 posted:
And which of those countries does the land belong to?
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paulg_68
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Subject:
Jewish settlers have seized dozens of natural springs in the occupied West Bank, barring Palestinian
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Ah, I misread. Thanks.
So Yuki says it's Palestinian land. Why don't the Palestinians just kick out the settlers and enforce their own sovereign rights?
Oh wait, now I remember. It's because Palestine isn't now nor has it ever been a sovereign state.
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__Bonk__
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Subject:
Jewish settlers have seized dozens of natural springs in the occupied West Bank, barring Palestinian
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But its not technically the palestinians land at all
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PhillsburyBandit
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Subject:
Jewish settlers have seized dozens of natural springs in the occupied West Bank, barring Palestinian
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bstulic posted:
paulg_68 posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
Doesn't matter. That land belongs to someone
If you don't know who, then how do you know who has jurisdiction to make laws there about who can settle the land?
Step 1: Figure out whose land it is.
Step 2: Figure out if that state has a law against Jewish settlers.
Until you've completed both of those steps you don't really know if the settlements are illegal.
Paul is obviously a Jew, he uses same semantics to avoid the problem
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Eager_Igraine
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Subject:
Jewish settlers have seized dozens of natural springs in the occupied West Bank, barring Palestinian
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paulg_68 posted:
Ah, I misread. Thanks.
So Yuki says it's Palestinian land. Why don't the Palestinians just kick out the settlers and enforce their own sovereign rights?
Oh wait, now I remember. It's because Palestine isn't now nor has it ever been a sovereign state.
According to Yuki, it is against the law in Israel to seize these lands. These lands are owned by a known organization.
Are you arguing that because this organization isn't in itself a sovereign state, it has no rights to the land it owns? I wonder if you would also support Australia's expansion of their Antarctic territory? Maybe they could just pick up Adelie Island?
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paulg_68
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Subject:
Jewish settlers have seized dozens of natural springs in the occupied West Bank, barring Palestinian
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Eager_Igraine posted:
According to Yuki, it is against the law in Israel to seize these lands.
What does Israeli law have to do with anything? Yuki says it's not their land. If that's the case then they don't have jurisdiction.
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Eager_Igraine
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Subject:
Jewish settlers have seized dozens of natural springs in the occupied West Bank, barring Palestinian
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paulg_68 posted:
Eager_Igraine posted:
According to Yuki, it is against the law in Israel to seize these lands.
What does Israeli law have to do with anything? Yuki says it's not their land. If that's the case then they don't have jurisdiction.
Way to ignore the rest of my post. 
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eodoll
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Subject:
Jewish settlers have seized dozens of natural springs in the occupied West Bank, barring Palestinian
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This is the in your face black and whote topic.. that shows the integrity of the person.
anyone who supports the settlers right to be there does not care about peace and is in fact a savage.
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Galois2005
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Subject:
Jewish settlers have seized dozens of natural springs in the occupied West Bank, barring Palestinian
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bstulic posted:
Galois2005 posted:
bstulic posted:
[quote=Galois2005]I don't care.
When the mainstream media gives the genocides in Africa even a small percentage of the attention it sheds on this pissant part of the world I might, until then piss off with this crap.
Unfortunately, stakes here are higher
Why?
Call me when they start tossing nukes around, until then - don't care, it's a petty tenant dispute.
Because they WOULD start tossing nukes...if you're from USA maybe you don't care, but some of us live closer [/quote]
How many nukes do the Palestinians have again?
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cabbyman
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Subject:
Jewish settlers have seized dozens of natural springs in the occupied West Bank, barring Palestinian
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The argument "You beat our asses in a war that we started. Now we want our stuff back!" always makes me .
You lost. Get over it.
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Groucho48
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Subject:
Jewish settlers have seized dozens of natural springs in the occupied West Bank, barring Palestinian
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When a country takes territory, say, in a war, it can either make that territory part of itself, or, it can occupy it. If it occupies it, there are certain rules it has to follow. One of these rules is that it can't send in bunches of its own citizens to displace the folks already living there.
Israel gets around this by saying the West Bank isn't "occupied" territory, it is "disputed" territory. Pretty much every other country in the world, plus the UN, plus the World Court says this is nonsense. Some Israeli court decisions say it is nonsense, some say it isn't. But, no one really cares enough to make Israel stop.
Let's flip this around. If Israeli settlers have the right to toss Palestinians off land they've lived on for decades, if not centuries, because "there is no law against it", would it be perfectly legitimate for, say, Egypt to force Israeli settlers off the land? Would the Israeli army be performing a war crime if it defended the settlers?
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cabbyman
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Jewish settlers have seized dozens of natural springs in the occupied West Bank, barring Palestinian
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When a country takes territory in a war it can do whatever the hell it wants with it.
Those are the spoils of war. If you don't like that then don't lose a war.
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Koneg
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Subject:
Jewish settlers have seized dozens of natural springs in the occupied West Bank, barring Palestinian
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cabbyman posted:
The argument "You beat our asses in a war that we started. Now we want our stuff back!" always makes me .
You lost. Get over it.
This.
Israel "occupied" the West Bank because the Arabs kept using it as a place to stage their tanks and artillery before invading Israel - and Israel had enough of that crap.
Don't want to be occupied? Don't lose.
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B_Shinkicker
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Subject:
Jewish settlers have seized dozens of natural springs in the occupied West Bank, barring Palestinian
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cabbyman posted:
When a country takes territory in a war it can do whatever the hell it wants with it.
What? No.
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Yukishiro1
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Subject:
Jewish settlers have seized dozens of natural springs in the occupied West Bank, barring Palestinian
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B_Shinkicker posted:
cabbyman posted:
When a country takes territory in a war it can do whatever the hell it wants with it.
What? No.
There's not really much you can do to argue with the "might makes right, suck it up!" crowd.
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eodoll
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Subject:
Jewish settlers have seized dozens of natural springs in the occupied West Bank, barring Palestinian
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by their logic germany and hitler were completely legally, morally and ethically correct in performing the holicaust. its their coubtry, hitler was running the show so whats the problem?
like i saud, some of these issues are black and white.
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bstulic
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Subject:
Jewish settlers have seized dozens of natural springs in the occupied West Bank, barring Palestinian
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cabbyman posted:
When a country takes territory in a war it can do whatever the hell it wants with it.
Those are the spoils of war. If you don't like that then don't lose a war.
Oh look, another holocaust supporter
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cabbyman
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Jewish settlers have seized dozens of natural springs in the occupied West Bank, barring Palestinian
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In the Middle Eastern version of the holocaust the "Germans" lost.
Now they're complaining that they want their ovens back.
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bstulic
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Subject:
Jewish settlers have seized dozens of natural springs in the occupied West Bank, barring Palestinian
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cabbyman posted:
In the Middle Eastern version of the holocaust the "Germans" lost.
Now they're complaining that they want their ovens back.
Why do you want to put Jews into ovens?
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Bonzoboy1
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Jewish settlers have seized dozens of natural springs in the occupied West Bank, barring Palestinian
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People seem so upset that the arab genocide failed.
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bstulic
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Jewish settlers have seized dozens of natural springs in the occupied West Bank, barring Palestinian
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Bonzoboy1 posted:
People seem so upset that the arab genocide failed.
No, I'm upset because all this would be avoided if terrorists didn't kill
Folke Bernadotte in 1948 when he managed to negotiate peace and borders
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