jeune
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Before the NRA started lobbying the law said before you use lethal force in public you had a duty to retreat. That you could only use lethal force if you had no other option... Florida passes the new NRA law and a kid is murdered and there is a very good possibility that no charges can be filed... apparently the 17 year old had some candy and tea from the store walking home when he is confronted by a nutcase.
Monday, May. 02, 2005
"Last week, Governor Jeb Bush signed a bill that has become known as the "Stand Your Ground" law. The law immunizes citizens who use deadly force in self-defense against criminal prosecution and civil liability.
Critics of the law are afraid it will promote vigilantism..."
3/14/2012
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/17/10732812-family-911-calls-show-shooting-of-black-teen-was-not-self-defense
SANFORD, Fla. -- Calls made to police show that a black teenager was terrified as he tried to get away from the white neighborhood watch volunteer who shot him...
Sanford police released eight 911 calls late Friday. The neighborhood watch volunteer, George Zimmerman, tells a dispatcher in the first call that he is following 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.
He says Martin is running, but the dispatcher tells him not to follow the teen...
Zimmerman had called police to report a suspicious person walking through the gated community. He has said he shot the teen in self-defense...
The teen had gone to a convenience store to buy candy and was walking back to his family's home in the neighborhood.
"This guy looks like he is up to no good. He is on drugs or something," Zimmerman told the dispatcher from his SUV. He added that the black teen had his hand in his waistband and was walking around looking at homes...
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Chogram
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I'd rather live in a state that has decent self defense laws than a state that has none.
"Oh. That man had a gun at the head of your child so you killed him? Too bad. Murder."
edit: And this guy is probably going to jail.
Jessie Jackson, Non, and the hate crime brigade will be all over this one.
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tantallous
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i'm not sure what connection you are showing here.. the person was not acting in accordance with the new law.. he isn't immune to prosecution in either the civil or criminal court.. the law itself is not a bad thing.
also, its florida. what you expect?
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jeune
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Before this new law he would have been charged because he had a duty to retreat(or with no other options)before using lethal force in public.
The new law just lowered the standard for using lethal force in public... it makes it so you can "stand your ground" and not retreat before using lethal force.
To me it is just a strange law... why would you want to use lethal force if you can walk away?
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-Kruugar-
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jeune posted:
Before this new law he would have been charged because he had a duty to retreat(or with no other options)before using lethal force in public.
The new law just lowered the standard for using lethal force in public... it makes it so you can "stand your ground" and not retreat before using lethal force.
To me it is just a strange law... why would you want to use lethal force if you can walk away?
Because you are a republican and want to use it to kill innocent people they don't like (Gays, blacks)?
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uglydwarf
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the guy shoots a person that is running from him, not posing a threat to him? i am a strong supporter of the second amendment. i BELIEVE in the right of self defense. i BELIEVE in the right to protect your neighbors. this was NOT either of those. the guy should be going to prison for a long time.
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Intent follows the bullet.
He says Martin is running, but the dispatcher tells him not to follow the teen
If he is shooting somebody running away from them then that's far from self defense. that would be more akin to murder.
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jeune
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Sounds like he followed the kid and got in a shuffle match then shot him claiming self-defense... you are legally allowed to shoot someone in Florida in self-defense without having a duty to leave if available.
If he was indeed "scared for his life" the law says he is immune from prosecution...
Edit: I am not saying that this was the intention of the law... but it looks like an unintended consequence.
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Fozzie_Bear posted:
Intent follows the bullet.
He says Martin is running, but the dispatcher tells him not to follow the teen
If he is shooting somebody running away from them then that's far from self defense. that would be more akin to murder.
I agree.
You have no right to shoot somebody fleeing. Now if he stops fleeing and goes for a gun, shoot all you want.
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TheNinthSeal
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I agree with jeune in a way. I think this is going to give alot of cowboys a green light to murder people when they are in a far less serious situation.
But as far as myself personally, this is a situation where I would want this law protecting me. I don't carry a gun or anything, but I believe I am capable of making the decision of whether or not I can actually flee or if I gotta put somebody down. If somebody mugs me with a knife, and I shoot them because I realize they are quite a bit taller than me and running is only going to get me a knife in the back, I don't want to deal with a prosecutor telling a court room of all the possible ways I could have escaped, so i must be a murderer. I made the call, I am a person who doesnt want to hurt people and someone approached ME and took away my right to live peacefully. I am not saying they would deserve death, but they made the decision to start it, I get to make the decision to end it.
Chasing someone down and shooting them is always murder. I would say this is murder AND a hate crime. Don't give me statistics, you see a black person walking down the street and follow them with a gun because they are up to no good, you have no place in civilized society. I hope this old bastard gets raped by black men in prison.
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-Abysmal-
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i like how the father thinks the murderer is not racist because he is hispanic 
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Tipztoe
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way to try to spin facts on a law that some idiot clearly didn't follow.
Standing your ground, and following after someone are clearly two separate things.
derp
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jeune
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Tipztoe posted:
way to try to spin facts on a law that some idiot clearly didn't follow.
Standing your ground, and following after someone are clearly two separate things.
derp
He is clearly using the law as his defense.
The law is very crude... it says he has a right to use deadly force in public if he fears his life... he no longer has a legal duty to retreat when available.
I am hoping the jury finds that he did not fear his life given the fact he followed the dude around... but if at the moment he started the altercation they find he feared his life... the judge will be forced to decide he is immune from prosecution as a matter of law.
I just think the NRA has started to hurt us with their gun-crazy attitude... when you legally lower the standard we place on human life you are going to have unintended consequences.
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I wonder if jeune is actually a functioning member of society or if he's just some psycho in a psyche ward that has access to a computer.
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Fenping_DT
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-Abysmal- posted:
i like how the father thinks the murderer is not racist because he is hispanic
Hey it doesn't have to be a race thing, he could've been thinking "these punk teenagers are always up to something!"
Either way, I really hope that a law for self defense isn't accepted as a valid reason for killing the kid who was obviously not doing anything wrong.
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Tipztoe
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jeune posted:
Tipztoe posted:
way to try to spin facts on a law that some idiot clearly didn't follow.
Standing your ground, and following after someone are clearly two separate things.
derp
He is clearly using the law as his defense.
The law is very crude... it says he has a right to use deadly force in public if he fears his life... he no longer has a legal duty to retreat when available.
I am hoping the jury finds that he did not fear his life given the fact he followed the dude around... but if at the moment he started the altercation they find he feared his life... the judge will be forced to decide he is immune from prosecution as a matter of law.
I just think the NRA has started to hurt us with their gun-crazy attitude... when you legally lower the standard we place on human life you are going to have unintended consequences.
not it's not unless you're an idiot.
someone running away does not equate fear of life and give you the right to use lethal force.
put down the peace pipe dude.
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Banelord_FF
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jeune posted:
Before this new law he would have been charged because he had a duty to retreat(or with no other options)before using lethal force in public.
The new law just lowered the standard for using lethal force in public... it makes it so you can "stand your ground" and not retreat before using lethal force.
To me it is just a strange law... why would you want to use lethal force if you can walk away?
A duty to retreat is not the same as "walking away" A duty to retreat meant that even though you faced imminent harm, you still had to try to retreat if that option was open, of course that just meant you had your back to someone chasing you now, which was stupid.
In this case the shooter had no threat of imminent harm, just because someone looked suspicious is not reason enough to shoot him, and he was told not to follow him. He put himself in the position where he supposedly "feared for his life" and in that case he is not immune to prosecution. The family needs to shut up about the FBI investigation and let the State Attorney do his job, and if he doesn't then ask for the FBI to get involved. I am sure the police would love to arrest him, but they do not get to make the decision to charge him with a crime, that is the State Attorney's job.
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I think it's funny that anyone here would waste their breath trying to explain it to jeune. He is obviously an alt of BT's.
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jeune
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What I find ironic is that if it was not a crazy idiot doing this... if it was indeed a suspicious person breaking into a house... of lets say your neighbor in NH and you do the same thing everyone would be screaming the law was working as intended.
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BS
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Fenping_DT posted:
-Abysmal- posted:
i like how the father thinks the murderer is not racist because he is hispanic
Hey it doesn't have to be a race thing, he could've been thinking "these punk teenagers are always up to something!"
Either way, I really hope that a law for self defense isn't accepted as a valid reason for killing the kid who was obviously not doing anything wrong.
you are right, it doesn't have to be a race thing, but the father brought it up...did you read the article?
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PlieBrac
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SANFORD, Fla. -- Calls made to police show that a black teenager was terrified as he tried to get away from the white neighborhood watch volunteer who shot him...
Sanford police released eight 911 calls late Friday. The neighborhood watch volunteer, George Zimmerman, tells a dispatcher in the first call that he is following 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.
He says Martin is running, but the dispatcher tells him not to follow the teen...
Zimmerman had called police to report a suspicious person walking through the gated community. He has said he shot the teen in self-defense...
The teen had gone to a convenience store to buy candy and was walking back to his family's home in the neighborhood.
"This guy looks like he is up to no good. He is on drugs or something," Zimmerman told the dispatcher from his SUV. He added that the black teen had his hand in his waistband and was walking around looking at homes...
i git it....
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Fenping_DT
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-Abysmal- posted:
Fenping_DT posted:
-Abysmal- posted:
i like how the father thinks the murderer is not racist because he is hispanic
Hey it doesn't have to be a race thing, he could've been thinking "these punk teenagers are always up to something!"
Either way, I really hope that a law for self defense isn't accepted as a valid reason for killing the kid who was obviously not doing anything wrong.
you are right, it doesn't have to be a race thing, but the father brought it up...did you read the article?
Yeah, the father was responding to media comments about it being a race thing. I think it's ridiculous how race is always played first. But if it helps get him a harsher sentence then I'm all for it in this case.
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the kid was running away, the man had to go out of his house and actively seek him out to shoot him.
its murder.
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One less mouth for my tax dollars to feed.
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I might disagree slightly with jeune, but he is right for his concern.
Thinking about how a new law might be abused isn't crazy. There is a chance, however remote, that this guy gets off on this defense, and if thats the case it sets a horrible precedent.
I am pretty sure jeune can see how this isnt what the law was intended for, just an unintended result
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"Several Sanford residents who spoke to The Associated Press Friday said they think there would have been an arrest already if
the shooter had been black and the deceased had been white."
No arrest yet, tells this tale of prejudice as good as anything else.
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jeune
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It just gets worse and worse...
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/19/us/911-tapes-released-in-killing-of-florida-teenager.html?_r=1
"The police told The Orlando Sentinel on Friday that they believed the voice crying for help was Mr. Zimmerman’s. They say that prosecutors have told them they do not have enough evidence to dispute Mr. Zimmerman’s claim that he acted in self-defense. Florida affords people who act in self-defense greater protection than most states, allowing them to take action if they have a reasonable fear that their lives are in peril. The case was turned over to the state attorney’s office last week.
“That is the circumstance we are dealing with: If we arrest, we open ourselves to a lawsuit,†Sgt. Dave Morgenstern, a spokesman with the Sanford Police Department, said. “I would have to say I don’t think we have conducted a racially biased investigation at all.â€"
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uglydwarf
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the first thing i though of when i saw this was the deer hunting episode of south park.
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