Fozzie_Bear
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Obama seeks halt to tax subsidies for oil industry
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all hail king Obama
http://news.yahoo.com/obama-seeks-halt-tax-subsidies-oil-industry-100325515.html
WASHINGTON (AP) — President Barack Obama is calling anew on Congress to end tax subsidies for the oil and gas industry, saying the nation needs to develop alternative sources of energy in the face of rising gasoline prices.
Obama said Saturday in his weekly radio and Internet address that he expected Congress to consider in the next few weeks halting $4 billion in tax subsidies, something he hasn't been able to get through Congress throughout his presidency. He said the vote would put lawmakers on record on whether they "stand up for oil companies" or "stand up for the American people."
"They can either place their bets on a fossil fuel from the last century or they can place their bets on America's future," Obama said.
Industry officials and many Republicans in Congress have argued that cutting the tax breaks would lead to higher fuel prices, raising costs on oil companies and affecting their investments in exploration and production. The measure is considered a long shot in Congress, given that Obama couldn't end the subsidies when Democrats controlled Congress earlier in his term.
Republican presidential candidates have accused Obama of delaying drilling for oil in the Gulf of Mexico and in a national wildlife refuge in Alaska and faulted him for not advancing the Keystone XL oil pipeline from Canada to Texas Gulf Coast refineries. They have also criticized policies pursued by the Environmental Protection Agency as inhibiting energy development.
Obama said there is no quick fix to high gas prices, which climbed to $3.83 on Friday according to AAA, but he pushed back against critics who say he is opposed to more drilling. He said the U.S. is producing more oil than at any time in the past eight years and has quadrupled the number of operating oil rigs.
"If we're truly going to make sure we're not at the mercy of spikes in gas prices every year, the answer isn't just to drill more — because we're already drilling more," Obama said. He said his administration was trying to develop wind and solar power, biofuels and usher in more fuel-efficient vehicles to make the nation less dependent on oil.
In the weekly Republican address, Rep. Cory Gardner, R-Colo., said his constituents have been hard hit by an increase in gasoline prices and were "fed up with the way the president is handling this issue, and rightfully so. The most forceful thing the president has done about high gas prices is try to explain that he's against them."
Gardner said the $800 billion stimulus spending sought by Obama promoted energy companies that went bankrupt, wasting taxpayer money.
"After spending money we don't have on what won't work — and overregulating what would — is it any wonder gas prices have more than doubled on the president's watch? Make no mistake, high gas prices are a symptom of his failed 'stimulus' policies," Gardner said.
Obama is expected to keep up a drumbeat on energy this week, traveling to four states over two days to push his administration's "all of the above" energy strategy. The trip includes stops in Nevada, New Mexico, Oklahoma and Ohio.
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Rhodoman
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Obama seeks halt to tax subsidies for oil industry
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I'd be in favor of this if he would also take the shackles off of domestic oil production.
Rho
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Ah-Schoo
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Republicans rejoice at their suddenly increased campaign contributions.
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Kanga_Roo
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I am in favor of this, no preconditions.
Gas prices are being jacked up by speculation far more than by anything Obama has done. Whining about the regulations is ignorant.
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suntzukali2
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Obama seeks halt to tax subsidies for oil industry
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Rhodoman posted:
I'd be in favor of this if he would also take the shackles off of domestic oil production.
Rho
yes because they are only making 100 of billions of dollars a year. Those shackles most be burdensome to say the least.
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Onslaught.
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Rhodoman posted:
I'd be in favor of this if he would also take the shackles off of domestic oil production.
Rho
Agreed.
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Kanga_Roo
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Agreed = pro-subsidy
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Onslaught.
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Ah-Schoo posted:
Republicans rejoice at their suddenly increased campaign contributions.
I really think that the parties are headed toward a total reversal as to which is defined as fiscally conservative.
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Bat_Avenger
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Obama seeks halt to tax subsidies for oil industry
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good thing i can afford the increased gas prices. LOL at people who don't think the subsidies wont be passed on.
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Kanga_Roo
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The subsidies passed on to the consumer? Like a free market thing? Oh my gosh I can see now why the board cons are in favor of the subsidies. Without the subsides people might have to pay for the goods themselves without the governments assistance. Terrifying really.
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Element_X
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Kanga_Roo posted:
I am in favor of this, no preconditions.
Gas prices are being jacked up by speculation far more than by anything Obama has done. Whining about the regulations is ignorant.
Gas prices are set by Supply and Demand. Even speculators are speculating on FUTURE levels of supply and demand based on today's data. A speculator would be correct to assume that tax-increases (even though its a halt of subsidies, it is viewed on the books as a tax increase) on oil companies will pass to the consumer, therefore increasing the price at the pump. Thank you Obama.
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Kanga_Roo
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Okay it's all Obama's fault, even the speculation. Supply/Demand/Obama are the driving forces in the market - whatever.
Ultimately people are just finding a reason to support oil subsidies.
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Element_X
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Kanga_Roo posted:
Okay it's all Obama's fault, even the speculation. Supply/Demand/Obama are the driving forces in the market - whatever.
Ultimately people are just finding a reason to support oil subsidies.
I personally dont care about oil companies paying more taxes. Im ok with that. But its bad timing, and its a bad move. He's just to dumb to realize it. He thinks pushing for alternative energy is the only, end-all-be-all solve to the problem. It just isnt.
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Bat_Avenger
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Obama seeks halt to tax subsidies for oil industry
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SAN FRANCISCO (KGO) -- Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi wrapped up her San Francisco holiday weekend Monday with a blast at President Bush. The topic -- the price of oil. Gasoline has more than doubled since the Bush administration took office she says.
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McCumber joined Speaker Pelosi Monday to dramatize the tough times businesses are having because of fuel costs. The speaker blames what she labels the Bush-Cheney big oil agenda, using graphics to point out gasoline prices have more than doubled in the Bush administration.
"This is a scam of the greatest magnitude," says Speaker Pelosi.
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Prices at the pump are a pain for all of us, but Speaker Pelosi is accusing President Bush of policies that have driven up the prices, and says she has a solution to bring prices down immediately,
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jeune
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Obama seeks halt to tax subsidies for oil industry
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Subsidies destroy the free-markets... yes we are lowering the price of gas. But why?
-Makes other forms of energy less competitive
-Increase our reliance on nut jobs in the Middle East
-Makes us use more... increasing threats from climate change
-Gives the most profitable corporations in the history of the world even more money
I say let people pay the "true" price for gas... it will only give a giant push for competing technologies... no longer forcing us to stay on gas.
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Element_X
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jeune posted:
Subsidies destroy the free-markets... yes we are lowering the price of gas. But why?
-Makes other forms of energy less competitive
-Increase our reliance on nut jobs in the Middle East
-Makes us use more... increasing threats from climate change
-Gives the most profitable corporations in the history of the world even more money
I say let people pay the "true" price for gas... it will only give a giant push for competing technologies... no longer forcing us to stay on gas.
Why does it have to be either or?
I say lets do both. Increase supply by drilling here, thus reducing our reliance on foreign imported oil. Drop the price of gas dramatically. At the same time, heavily incentive the alternative energy sector.
It doesnt have to be either-or. And letting people pay the true price of gas is disastrous in the short term. Jobs, related markets, even lives would be lost. Dangerous line of thought.
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WhipSmack
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Just what technology are we talking about for powering our vehicles? Wind powered cars? Every alternative energy source for vehicles has failed. Why? It takes more energy to convert to the alternate energy.
I am all for cold fusion. Then we can all have free energy forever  So yes Obama please push for cold-fushion. We know that tech has been suppressed. If everyone could have free energy you know TPTB would NOT allow it.
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jeune
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Obama seeks halt to tax subsidies for oil industry
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Element_X posted:
jeune posted:
Subsidies destroy the free-markets... yes we are lowering the price of gas. But why?
-Makes other forms of energy less competitive
-Increase our reliance on nut jobs in the Middle East
-Makes us use more... increasing threats from climate change
-Gives the most profitable corporations in the history of the world even more money
I say let people pay the "true" price for gas... it will only give a giant push for competing technologies... no longer forcing us to stay on gas.
Why does it have to be either or?
I say lets do both. Increase supply by drilling here, thus reducing our reliance on foreign imported oil. Drop the price of gas dramatically. At the same time, heavily incentive the alternative energy sector.
It doesnt have to be either-or. And letting people pay the true price of gas is disastrous in the short term. Jobs, related markets, even lives would be lost. Dangerous line of thought.
Why do we need to increase our supply here? Gas consumption is currently at a 15 year low... it is so low they are shutting down refineries... so we can sell to emerging markets?
Honestly, the only reason gas price is so high is because it is a monopoly and they can charge whatever they want because we have no other option and have to take it... they can speculate/drive up fear over a highly improbable cut in our supply... they can increase prices based on nothing.
We need things that compete with oil... that is the only thing that will drive its price down over time.
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Ptilk
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Obama seeks halt to tax subsidies for oil industry
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Um.....we use about 150 Billion gallons of gas in the US each year.
The subsidy is about 4 billion.
That equals less than 3/10ths of one penny per gallon in increased cost... if the increased cost from removing that subsidy was passed on 100% to the consumer.
I'm pretty sure no one would fecking notice.
Oh, and we are already producing more oil domestically than ever before and we are EXPORTING gas. I can't believe how often this is pointed out and no one ever pays any attention, so let me try one more god damn time.
We Are Exporting Gasoline. We Produce More Than We Can Use Now. There Is No Shortage Of Gasoline In The USA. Price Is Not Increasing Due to Demand. Demand Is Dropping.
We Are Exporting Gasoline. We Produce More Than We Can Use Now. There Is No Shortage Of Gasoline In The USA. Price Is Not Increasing Due to Demand. Demand Is Dropping.
We Are Exporting Gasoline. We Produce More Than We Can Use Now. There Is No Shortage Of Gasoline In The USA. Price Is Not Increasing Due to Demand. Demand Is Dropping.
We Are Exporting Gasoline. We Produce More Than We Can Use Now. There Is No Shortage Of Gasoline In The USA. Price Is Not Increasing Due to Demand. Demand Is Dropping.
We Are Exporting Gasoline. We Produce More Than We Can Use Now. There Is No Shortage Of Gasoline In The USA. Price Is Not Increasing Due to Demand. Demand Is Dropping.
We Are Exporting Gasoline. We Produce More Than We Can Use Now. There Is No Shortage Of Gasoline In The USA. Price Is Not Increasing Due to Demand. Demand Is Dropping.
We Are Exporting Gasoline. We Produce More Than We Can Use Now. There Is No Shortage Of Gasoline In The USA. Price Is Not Increasing Due to Demand. Demand Is Dropping.
We Are Exporting Gasoline. We Produce More Than We Can Use Now. There Is No Shortage Of Gasoline In The USA. Price Is Not Increasing Due to Demand. Demand Is Dropping.
We Are Exporting Gasoline. We Produce More Than We Can Use Now. There Is No Shortage Of Gasoline In The USA. Price Is Not Increasing Due to Demand. Demand Is Dropping.
We Are Exporting Gasoline. We Produce More Than We Can Use Now. There Is No Shortage Of Gasoline In The USA. Price Is Not Increasing Due to Demand. Demand Is Dropping.
We Are Exporting Gasoline. We Produce More Than We Can Use Now. There Is No Shortage Of Gasoline In The USA. Price Is Not Increasing Due to Demand. Demand Is Dropping.
We Are Exporting Gasoline. We Produce More Than We Can Use Now. There Is No Shortage Of Gasoline In The USA. Price Is Not Increasing Due to Demand. Demand Is Dropping.
We Are Exporting Gasoline. We Produce More Than We Can Use Now. There Is No Shortage Of Gasoline In The USA. Price Is Not Increasing Due to Demand. Demand Is Dropping.
We Are Exporting Gasoline. We Produce More Than We Can Use Now. There Is No Shortage Of Gasoline In The USA. Price Is Not Increasing Due to Demand. Demand Is Dropping.
We Are Exporting Gasoline. We Produce More Than We Can Use Now. There Is No Shortage Of Gasoline In The USA. Price Is Not Increasing Due to Demand. Demand Is Dropping.
We Are Exporting Gasoline. We Produce More Than We Can Use Now. There Is No Shortage Of Gasoline In The USA. Price Is Not Increasing Due to Demand. Demand Is Dropping.
We Are Exporting Gasoline. We Produce More Than We Can Use Now. There Is No Shortage Of Gasoline In The USA. Price Is Not Increasing Due to Demand. Demand Is Dropping.
We Are Exporting Gasoline. We Produce More Than We Can Use Now. There Is No Shortage Of Gasoline In The USA. Price Is Not Increasing Due to Demand. Demand Is Dropping.
We Are Exporting Gasoline. We Produce More Than We Can Use Now. There Is No Shortage Of Gasoline In The USA. Price Is Not Increasing Due to Demand. Demand Is Dropping.
We Are Exporting Gasoline. We Produce More Than We Can Use Now. There Is No Shortage Of Gasoline In The USA. Price Is Not Increasing Due to Demand. Demand Is Dropping.
We Are Exporting Gasoline. We Produce More Than We Can Use Now. There Is No Shortage Of Gasoline In The USA. Price Is Not Increasing Due to Demand. Demand Is Dropping.
We Are Exporting Gasoline. We Produce More Than We Can Use Now. There Is No Shortage Of Gasoline In The USA. Price Is Not Increasing Due to Demand. Demand Is Dropping.
We Are Exporting Gasoline. We Produce More Than We Can Use Now. There Is No Shortage Of Gasoline In The USA. Price Is Not Increasing Due to Demand. Demand Is Dropping.
We Are Exporting Gasoline. We Produce More Than We Can Use Now. There Is No Shortage Of Gasoline In The USA. Price Is Not Increasing Due to Demand. Demand Is Dropping.
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Rhodoman
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jeune posted:
the only reason gas price is so high is because it is a monopoly and they can charge whatever they want
Any evidence at all to support this?
OPEC acting as a monopoly, I can believe, but not the entire oil industry. Any time they can get more bidness, they will.
Rho
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jeune
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WhipSmack posted:
Just what technology are we talking about for powering our vehicles? Wind powered cars? Every alternative energy source for vehicles has failed. Why? It takes more energy to convert to the alternate energy.
Since the majority of Americans drive fewer than 50 miles a day some people think we can dramatically change our transportation.
They think you can have a bunch of electric vehicles connected to a smart grid that gets a lot of its energy from renewable sources.
These cars would be plugged in and the grid would be able to pull power from the cars (and pay you for it) during times of low-energy production(because renewable output fluctuates so much).
They think that you could also program what time you needed your car charged and the majority of people will have them charged while sleeping during low power usage.
I am also confused by your comment that other forms of power use more energy than gas. The internal combustion engine is very inefficient compared to electric vehicles.
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Rhodoman
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jeune posted:
The internal combustion engine is very inefficient compared to electric vehicles.
This is an hysterically incorrect statement.
Rho
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jeune
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Rhodoman posted:
jeune posted:
The internal combustion engine is very inefficient compared to electric vehicles.
This is an hysterically incorrect statement.
Rho
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/evtech.shtml
"Energy efficient. Electric motors convert 75% of the chemical energy from the batteries to power the wheels—internal combustion engines (ICEs) only convert 20% of the energy stored in gasoline."
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Rhodoman
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jeune posted:
Rhodoman posted:
jeune posted:
The internal combustion engine is very inefficient compared to electric vehicles.
This is an hysterically incorrect statement.
Rho
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/evtech.shtml
"Energy efficient. Electric motors convert 75% of the chemical energy from the batteries to power the wheels—internal combustion engines (ICEs) only convert 20% of the energy stored in gasoline."
What you have failed to factor in to your comparison is the loss from generation and transmission of the electricity used to charge the car's batteries.
Rho
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jeune
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Rhodoman posted:
jeune posted:
Rhodoman posted:
[quote=jeune]The internal combustion engine is very inefficient compared to electric vehicles.
This is an hysterically incorrect statement.
Rho
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/evtech.shtml
"Energy efficient. Electric motors convert 75% of the chemical energy from the batteries to power the wheels—internal combustion engines (ICEs) only convert 20% of the energy stored in gasoline."
What you have failed to factor in to your comparison is the loss from generation and transmission of the electricity used to charge the car's batteries.
Rho[/quote]
Just curious if you have calculated the energy costs of development of gas fields, of production, refinement, transportation, distribution, who knows what else. Or are you just looking at the end product for gas and comparing it to the whole picture for something else...
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Ptilk
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OK, now factor in the cost of producing oil to refine into gasoline, and the costs associated with intervention in the middle east to keep the supply line moving.
Then remember we can produce electricity from domestic sources of energy, and in fact, almost all electricity generated in the US is produced via domestically produced energy sources.
Tada! Oil costs more than electricity. A LOT more.
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Rhodoman
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Taking the same number of BTU's of fuel into your tank vs. into the power plant generating the electricity (both would contain the cost of getting the fuel in the first place), the gas engine in your tank wins the efficiency battle walking away.
Rho
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Rhodoman posted:
Taking the same number of BTU's of fuel into your tank vs. into the power plant generating the electricity (both would contain the cost of getting the fuel in the first place), the gas engine in your tank wins the efficiency battle walking away.
Rho
lol. Must be the special republican science of misinformation.
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I believe that the best current alternative to gasoline-fueled automobiles are natural gas or propane-fueled ones. Domestic production is skyrocketing, regional distribution is already in place. Conversion of the engine technology is minimal and all that remains is a reasonable retail sales presence.
A significant percentage of these alternate fuel vehicles will drop the demand for gasoline even more which will subsequently make it less expensive.
Rho
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jeune
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Rhodoman posted:
Taking the same number of BTU's of fuel into your tank vs. into the power plant generating the electricity (both would contain the cost of getting the fuel in the first place), the gas engine in your tank wins the efficiency battle walking away.
Rho
What if you have some solar panels on your roof and produce the electricity yourself? What if you pay extra to buy "green energy" from the power plant? What if you live in a place that gets all their energy from hydro?
Seems like you are picking a hypothetical that is a little dishonest to make a point.
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Getting enough electricity from solar at home to power your vehicle cost-effectively is the dishonest assumption, here. Have you calculated the cost/benefit numbers on roof-installed solar? It's joke w/o gobs of gummint subsidy.
Rho
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America has no future but death camps, food riots and social destruction.
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Rhodoman posted:
Getting enough electricity from solar at home to power your vehicle cost-effectively is the dishonest assumption, here. Have you calculated the cost/benefit numbers on roof-installed solar? It's joke w/o gobs of gummint subsidy.
Rho
I have not done a cost/benefit analysis of the costs of producing my own solar electricity that powers my house and powers the vehicle I drive. But I am guessing the payback time will be cut way down if you do not have to buy gas anymore for your car.
But I also doubt you have done an analysis and are just spewing out information based on only electrical use in your own home vs. buying power.
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-Mithan- posted:
America has no future but death camps, food riots and social destruction.
Hopefully I get to work the guard tower! 
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jeune posted:
Rhodoman posted:
Getting enough electricity from solar at home to power your vehicle cost-effectively is the dishonest assumption, here. Have you calculated the cost/benefit numbers on roof-installed solar? It's joke w/o gobs of gummint subsidy.
Rho
I have not done a cost/benefit analysis of the costs of producing my own solar electricity that powers my house and powers the vehicle I drive. But I am guessing the payback time will be cut way down if you do not have to buy gas anymore for your car.
But I also doubt you have done an analysis and are just spewing out information based on only electrical use in your own home vs. buying power.
Doubt all you like. I have run the numbers on solar for my roof 4 or 5 times during my 20+ years of home ownership. Every single time it comes out a loser, even WITH the subsidies.
Rho
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I'm all for it, if we stop subsidizing other energy companies too. Especially the ones that seem to take their handout, give huge bonuses, then go bankrupt.
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Subsidizing new and emerging technology is in our collective best interest.
Subsidizing established and highly profitable technology is god damned stupid.
Oh, and there is NO doubt that electric engines are much more efficient than internal combustion engines. Anyone claiming differently is wrong.
There is room to debate the total efficiency of the getting the potential energy to each type of engine, but that soon becomes such a nebulous mass of double speak and cherry picking of "facts" that support your opinion....that it is meaningless.
There is plenty of room in the market for electric vehicles to take their stab at getting a chunk, as well as CNG fueled vehicles and others to try to take a piece of that market.
Government support of such "alternative fuels" will dramatically shorten the time to market efficiency for any serious option over IC engine vehicles, and as such, is at the very least a worthy subject of informed and logical debate as to the merits of doing so.
Unfortunately, informed and logical debate is a lost art form in 21st century America.
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Rhodoman
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Ptilk posted:
There is room to debate the total efficiency of the getting the potential energy to each type of engine
Good thing, since it is the argument that actually matters. ;}
Rho
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It is not in our collective best interest. All a subsidy buys is hope. If a technology truly has promise, private investors will assume the risk. Sadly, the only innovation going on now is figuring out how to siphon the most out of the government coffers. If the government stopped the handouts, those energies would have to refocus on increasing productivity.
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It all matters, and as said above......it's far from a clear cut issue with obvious and easy to quantify answers. No matter what anyone on either side of the issue (such as yourself) claims.
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warflea posted:
Sadly, the only innovation going on now is figuring out how to siphon the most out of the government coffers.
THIS is a supply worth cutting off.
Rho
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warflea posted:
It is not in our collective best interest. All a subsidy buys is hope. If a technology truly has promise, private investors will assume the risk.
Subsidies are designed to push us toward an end goal. They are designed to change market conditions allowing us to reach a goal faster. The subsidy for oil has no purpose anymore... maybe it had a reason during the oil embargo or whatever got it pushed through but it makes no sense today.
It is absurd to claim that pushing us towards a future in which we are not as heavily dependent on oil is not in our collective best interests.
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mightbe
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someone will always have to make up the difference
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Why can't we subsidize poor people to walk on treadmills for power instead?
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I rather see us get rid of the corn subsidy
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Eradiani posted:
I rather see us get rid of the corn subsidy
That also yes.
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Kanga_Roo posted:
Eradiani posted:
I rather see us get rid of the corn subsidy
That also yes.
that expired end of last year and was not renewed.
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jeune posted:
Kanga_Roo posted:
Eradiani posted:
I rather see us get rid of the corn subsidy
That also yes.
that expired end of last year and was not renewed.
good point lets keep the anti subsidy ball rolling
https://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/02/business/energy-environment/after-three-decades-federal-tax-credit-for-ethanol-expires.html?_r=1
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Yeah it did. And it was a subsidy that unlike the one for oil that accounts for less than half a penny per gallon of gas...it accounted for about 5 to 12 cents per gallon of gasoline with ethanol added (depending upon how much ethanol was added to the gas)
Which of course, drove up gas prices. Not that anyone tried to use that as an excuse to keep the stupid program....unlike what "conservatives" are doing now in order to defend the oil subsidy.
Wonder why? Oh yeah. Logic plays no role in "conservative" ideology.
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Why do we need to give taxpayer money to companies that are already making record profits?
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its about damn time
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Jezza_Belle
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its about damn time
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warflea
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Which potential technology is the best to get public funds? How is such a thing decided? By the one that paints the grandest picture of it's future success? The one that touts its green credentials most? The one who donated most to your campaign? The one that people have the most favorable opinion of?
It's a system that rewards lobbyists and ideologies, not hard work and innovation. We need to stop subsidies. Let individuals take the risk, invest, and succeed or fail.
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warflea posted:
Which potential technology is the best to get public funds? How is such a thing decided? By the one that paints the grandest picture of it's future success? The one that touts its green credentials most? The one who donated most to your campaign? The one that people have the most favorable opinion of?
It's a system that rewards lobbyists and ideologies, not hard work and innovation. We need to stop subsidies. Let individuals take the risk, invest, and succeed or fail.
The one that is not 100+ years old.
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SeligSwiftblades
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I say take away the subsidies. At least we increase the tax revenue.
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warflea
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jeune posted:
warflea posted:
Which potential technology is the best to get public funds? How is such a thing decided? By the one that paints the grandest picture of it's future success? The one that touts its green credentials most? The one who donated most to your campaign? The one that people have the most favorable opinion of?
It's a system that rewards lobbyists and ideologies, not hard work and innovation. We need to stop subsidies. Let individuals take the risk, invest, and succeed or fail.
The one that is newfangled and hip?
I knew I missed one aspect. Thanks.
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Rhodoman posted:
I'd be in favor of this if he would also take the shackles off of domestic oil production.
Rho
Actually domestic oil production is at all time highs and we are actually exporting some now, a little fact the repukes wont mention
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Rhodoman
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Uccello posted:
Rhodoman posted:
I'd be in favor of this if he would also take the shackles off of domestic oil production.
Rho
Actually domestic oil production is at all time highs and we are actually exporting some now, a little fact the repukes wont mention
We still import about half of the oil we use. What we are exporting is largely some diesel and specialty jet fuels that we make better than other folks do. We are still very much a net oil importer.
Rho
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Rhodoman posted:
Getting enough electricity from solar at home to power your vehicle cost-effectively is the dishonest assumption, here. Have you calculated the cost/benefit numbers on roof-installed solar? It's joke w/o gobs of gummint subsidy.
Rho
Actually, at least in hawaii - and I believe California too, you get a huge tax break for putting in solar panels... Pay the rest of what's owed in installments and you won't have to change your budget. Like I said, at least in hawaii. The electricity bills in hawaii are pretty hefty.
Basically it takes 3-5 years depending on how big your system is for it to pay for itself, and like I said, without having to change your budget.
Solar panels and electric vehicles are great solutions to the problem. Don't be so butthurt that it's true just because you love your classic vroom machines. We all do. But come on, we've got to stop being so animalistic with our technology.
Actually forget the solar panels. The bigger question is why we aren't using free energy right now? It really saddens me that our society has made money such a driving force in life that we actually HINDER OUR PROGRESS for the sake of milking it all for what it's worth.
If you love them so much you can always just use a electric car to commute back and forth from work, and then when you want to go on a drive just use the ol' standby :]
You know what I would enjoy driving?
An electric motorcycle.
That would be so sweet - although probably dangerous driving around silently.
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MoFoEskimo posted:
The bigger question is why we aren't using free energy right now?
Where is this free energy you're talking about?
Rho
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Hyperimiator
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This should have happened in the 1970's, it is more than past due.
Regular people that fight for big oil to get tax breaks are fools, I am sorry but you really are being used as tools.
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Rhodoman posted:
MoFoEskimo posted:
The bigger question is why we aren't using free energy right now?
Where is this free energy you're talking about?
Rho
That's my question. We have it, and have had it, so why aren't we using it?
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Rhodoman posted:
I believe that the best current alternative to gasoline-fueled automobiles are natural gas or propane-fueled ones. Domestic production is skyrocketing, regional distribution is already in place. Conversion of the engine technology is minimal and all that remains is a reasonable retail sales presence.
A significant percentage of these alternate fuel vehicles will drop the demand for gasoline even more which will subsequently make it less expensive.
Rho
But, demand for gas is at a 15 year low, yet prices continue to go up.
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Tag for later.
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combat_mage_sc
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Obama seeks halt to tax subsidies for oil industry
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Rho won this thread. He made you intellectually inept trolls his bitch!
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Itab
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Obama seeks halt to tax subsidies for oil industry
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combat_mage_sc posted:
Rho won this thread. He made you intellectually inept trolls his bitch!
He beat conjecture with conjecture.
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-Ducky-
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Obama seeks halt to tax subsidies for oil industry
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I don't think we should be subsidizing corporations that post billions of profits a year. In other parts of the economy subsidies go to people or companies that are struggling or starting up and need financial assistance.
I think this halt to subsidies is just a show anyways. He probably knows it isn't going to pass and therefore can use the "no" votes to define Republican Congress and get a majority back. Or use it somehow on the campaign to his advantage.
I think the reason gas is the most efficient source of energy right now is because it is subsidized and others are not (to the same extent). If we put as much time and resource into developing a successful non-gasoline powered vehicles or if gas all of a sudden dried up you can bet that companies would be coming out of the woodwork overnight with ideas and efficient vehicles.
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Kanga_Roo
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Obama seeks halt to tax subsidies for oil industry
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I don't want to hear any more whining about subsidies from the bored cons
but I will
If it was Rho's goal to demonstrate that he does not believe in the free market system and supports subsides for industries making a profit without them then I suppose he "won"
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Ah-Schoo
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Obama seeks halt to tax subsidies for oil industry
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combat_mage_sc posted:
Rho won this thread. He made you intellectually inept trolls his bitch!
Sorry about this endorsement Rho. I'm sure if you could get off the Republican talking points Combat wouldn't have done this to you.
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Rhodoman
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Obama seeks halt to tax subsidies for oil industry
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Kanga_Roo posted:
I don't want to hear any more whining about subsidies from the bored cons
but I will
If it was Rho's goal to demonstrate that he does not believe in the free market system and supports subsides for industries making a profit without them then I suppose he "won"
Perhaps you missed that I was in favor of ending the subsidies.
Rho
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warflea
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Obama seeks halt to tax subsidies for oil industry
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-Ducky- posted:
I don't think we should be subsidizing corporations that post billions of profits a year. In other parts of the economy subsidies go to people or companies that are struggling or starting up and need financial assistance.
I think this halt to subsidies is just a show anyways. He probably knows it isn't going to pass and therefore can use the "no" votes to define Republican Congress and get a majority back. Or use it somehow on the campaign to his advantage.
I think the reason gas is the most efficient source of energy right now is because it is subsidized and others are not (to the same extent). If we put as much time and resource into developing a successful non-gasoline powered vehicles or if gas all of a sudden dried up you can bet that companies would be coming out of the woodwork overnight with ideas and efficient vehicles.
Struggling businesses shouldn't get subsidies for the same reason successful one's shouldn't. Government should not pick the winners. It is not our collective fault when a company fails, it is the company's fault.
And you are right, this is all politics. The Republicans won't support his measure because he doesn't only want to cut the subsidy, he wants to move it around. They won't support subsidizing more companies like Solyndra.
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jeune
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Obama seeks halt to tax subsidies for oil industry
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warflea posted:
-Ducky- posted:
I don't think we should be subsidizing corporations that post billions of profits a year. In other parts of the economy subsidies go to people or companies that are struggling or starting up and need financial assistance.
I think this halt to subsidies is just a show anyways. He probably knows it isn't going to pass and therefore can use the "no" votes to define Republican Congress and get a majority back. Or use it somehow on the campaign to his advantage.
I think the reason gas is the most efficient source of energy right now is because it is subsidized and others are not (to the same extent). If we put as much time and resource into developing a successful non-gasoline powered vehicles or if gas all of a sudden dried up you can bet that companies would be coming out of the woodwork overnight with ideas and efficient vehicles.
Struggling businesses shouldn't get subsidies for the same reason successful one's shouldn't. Government should not pick the winners. It is not our collective fault when a company fails, it is the company's fault.
And you are right, this is all politics. The Republicans won't support his measure because he doesn't only want to cut the subsidy, he wants to move it around. They won't support subsidizing more companies like Solyndra.
That was not a subsidy.
That was a loan guarantee by the American people... we started guaranteeing energy projects (under Bush) for things that the market deemed too risky to go on their own. The program was working exactly how it was intended when we were stuck with the bill.
I think the real question is why is the American govt is guaranteeing loans for any risky private endeavor... why was this a good idea.
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warflea
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Obama seeks halt to tax subsidies for oil industry
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The difference between a government loan and a government subsidy is razor thin. A loan implies the money will be repaid. Since the Solyndra people had already decided where that money should go, I'd say it wasn't really a loan.
And why not go further and ask, why is the government granting and guaranteeing loans at all?
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Rhodoman
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jeune posted:
That was not a subsidy.
That was a loan guarantee by the American people
These two sentences contradict one another.
Rho
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Ah-Schoo
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Rho is right, free money and a loan are exactly the same thing, also asparagus.
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jeune
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Obama seeks halt to tax subsidies for oil industry
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Rhodoman posted:
jeune posted:
That was not a subsidy.
That was a loan guarantee by the American people
These two sentences contradict one another.
Rho
They are 2 completely different things.
A subsidy distorts the market... a loan guarantee is only saying we will take on someones risk if it falls through.
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Rhodoman
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The only difference between a direct subsidy and a loan guarantee is the amount of risk of the government's money. Direct subsidy: the money is GONE, loan guarantee: the money is AT RISK of being gone.
They BOTH distort the market by making a company behave differently than they would if the government subsidy didn't exist.
Rho
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Kanga_Roo
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Obama seeks halt to tax subsidies for oil industry
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Rhodoman posted:
Kanga_Roo posted:
I don't want to hear any more whining about subsidies from the bored cons
but I will
If it was Rho's goal to demonstrate that he does not believe in the free market system and supports subsides for industries making a profit without them then I suppose he "won"
Perhaps you missed that I was in favor of ending the subsidies.
Rho
I did not miss your conditional support of removing subsidies with the conditions for support being vague and ill defined.
It's like saying I'd support Christianity if Jesus Himself asked me to.
I am generally against subsidies. Best would be to get rid of them at once. Second best would be to get rid of the oldest one's first.
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Rhodoman
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Yeah, I shouldn't have made the first post in this thread conditional. I'd be in favor of ending the subsidies no matter what.
However, since putting artificial barriers to domestic production in place is essentially causing the price of fuel to be higher than it would be otherwise (and I believe he is doing it on purpose, not for valid environmental reasons), I am against those, as well.
Rho
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Banelord_FF
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Obama seeks halt to tax subsidies for oil industry
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Ptilk posted:
Um.....we use about 150 Billion gallons of gas in the US each year.
The subsidy is about 4 billion.
That equals less than 3/10ths of one penny per gallon in increased cost... if the increased cost from removing that subsidy was passed on 100% to the consumer.
I'm pretty sure no one would fecking notice.
Oh, and we are already producing more oil domestically than ever before and we are EXPORTING gas. I can't believe how often this is pointed out and no one ever pays any attention, so let me try one more god damn time.
We Are Exporting Gasoline. We Produce More Than We Can Use Now. There Is No Shortage Of Gasoline In The USA. Price Is Not Increasing Due to Demand. Demand Is Dropping.
Yes the US is producing more gas than it uses, but it is not producing more oil than it is using. The US is still has to import oil to meet its own needs and that is the issue here, not gasoline, which is an oil product.
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Ptilk
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It is absolutely the case here.
Oil companies are importing foreign oil (and the purchase is subsidized by the US taxpayers) in order to turn around and sell the gasoline created from that oil....overseas.
So we, the US taxpayers, are spending our money to subsidize the profit of oil companies on products which are of no benefit to the US public at all. Despite this fact, any calls to end the subsidies are responded to with dire predictions of dramatic increase in gasoline prices to the American consumer.
Think about that.
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Gasoline is a byproduct of refining oil into PLASTICS...the very thing which we use to produce 'green' solutions to the energy problem. Gas prices are lower than they have ever been (when adjusted for inflation) there is no crisis in that area. the OIL however is needed for our technologically addicted society to function...and that is whats gonna rape us.
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Terminius_Est
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The argument I hear for the tax subsidies is the small companies need them.
The big ones definitely do not.
Just don't know about the small companies, I work for a big one.
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Hyperimiator
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You know why I know the big oil is full of crap?
Because I grew up in DC and every time that was a supposed gas shortage, Washington DC had the first and longest lines to get gas.
They deliberately starved DC to influence public opinion.
The only subsidy oil execs should get is housing, as in a free room in z federal prison.
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combat_mage_sc
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Obama seeks halt to tax subsidies for oil industry
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Rhodoman posted:
jeune posted:
That was not a subsidy.
That was a loan guarantee by the American people
These two sentences contradict one another.
Rho
Rhown3d!!
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Banelord_FF
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Ptilk posted:
It is absolutely the case here.
Oil companies are importing foreign oil (and the purchase is subsidized by the US taxpayers) in order to turn around and sell the gasoline created from that oil....overseas.
So we, the US taxpayers, are spending our money to subsidize the profit of oil companies on products which are of no benefit to the US public at all. Despite this fact, any calls to end the subsidies are responded to with dire predictions of dramatic increase in gasoline prices to the American consumer.
Think about that.
Producing that gas here creates jobs for Americans.
Why stop with oil? Let's end them for all industries that shouldn't be getting them, including farming.
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Kanga_Roo
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Rho - that's cool
Have a good one.
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BritonGuy
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Eradiani posted:
I rather see us get rid of the corn subsidy
Hemp would be more land efficient and easier to grow.
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Ah-Schoo
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combat_mage_sc posted:
Rhodoman posted:
jeune posted:
That was not a subsidy.
That was a loan guarantee by the American people
These two sentences contradict one another.
Rho
Rhown3d!!
Rhodoman posted:
The only difference between a direct subsidy and a loan guarantee is ...
Yup, "Rhowned"
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