Author Topic: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
Terminius_Est 
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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
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He may be a sleazeball, but he's a very intelligent sleazeball.

The Republican Bill Clinton.

 

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Sith_Mauler 
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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
The afghans are descendants of every invading army that has marched through that part of asia since the beginning of time.

These people are born and breed to fight.

 

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OG_Loki 
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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
Sith_Mauler posted:
The afghans are descendants of every invading army that has marched through that part of asia since the beginning of time.

These people are born and breed to fight.


That's a pretty stupid assumption

 

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Sith_Mauler 
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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
OG_Loki posted:
Sith_Mauler posted:
The afghans are descendants of every invading army that has marched through that part of asia since the beginning of time.

These people are born and breed to fight.


That's a pretty stupid assumption


what assumption?
open a history book.

 

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Hiakisha 
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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
they are like spartans of the 22nd century

 

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suntzukali2 
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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
Topic: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"

We shouldn't be trying to change them.

All we should of done was remove the heads of state from that particular Taliban regime and have maybe a small military base to hunt terrorist that are living in the region.

The Taliban is the government those people want otherwise it wouldn't be able to stay in power we don't have the right to tell them how to govern themselves. We did have the right to remove those particular leaders because they allowed a threat to our country to be staged on their soil. Those people are long since gone.

The terrorist I'm of the feeling that a military base in some remote area looking for terrorist can be achieved without waging war or being intrusive to the people of that region. Maybe I am wrong.

The more we meddle with their affairs the more they will resist us. Because it is human nature not to want to be told what to do especially by people whom you don't respect. They will never respect us because they view us as infidels.




 

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Kanga_Roo 
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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
He is still a smart idiot

Do you think the Greeks under Alexander weren't ruthless enough? Afghanistan has long been easy to take, impossible to hold.

The proximate problem is what we are doing in Afghanistan now. The root cause of the problem is a lack of historical understanding when we went in. If Newt hadn't been been so busy being the highest paid "historian" for bankers he might have served the country instead of his bank account.

 

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Rhodoman 
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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
I think we should just park a carrier group off their coast and patrol the entire country with drones.

If we see poppies being cultivated -- boom.

If we see terrorist training camps -- boom.


Until they behave.

Rho

 

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Bat_Avenger 
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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
he is right.

 

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GrimTempest 
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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
yup...he's right.


newt is a weasel but what sets him apart from most of the other politicians is that hes a very intelligent weasel.

 

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Aerlinthian 
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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
You would not need to "force change" on them if you weren't ***king with them every chance you got... Instead of being their unwanted malevolent benefactors we should have been instead friendly investors in pursuit of their earth resources.

 

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Kanga_Roo 
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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
Right in what sense? Right in the idea that being ruthless in your enforcement of freedom will ever work? He is an idiot for thinking we can or should attempt to force democratic ideals on another culture.

 

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Kanga_Roo 
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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
Rhodoman posted:
I think we should just park a carrier group off their coast and patrol the entire country with drones.

If we see poppies being cultivated -- boom.

If we see terrorist training camps -- boom.


Until they behave.

Rho


Now the circle is complete. The cheerleader for the wars in the middle east has turned Monday Morning Quarterback.

Do you see now why we were so uneasy about Bush's grand plan to invade and democratize middle eastern countries?

How much money, lives, pain, and political capital did it take for you to see the obvious?

 

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Rhodoman 
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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
This conclusion is for Afghanistan only. Nothing to do with overgeneralized "the wars in the middle east".

Back when we first went into Afghanistan, there were people and groups to chase and kill. That has become, now, almost impossible.

The invasion of Iraq is a completely different situation, requiring different actions.

Rho

 

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Ptilk 
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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
It's not that we aren't prepared to be ruthless enough to force them to change.

It's that no amount of ruthless actions will ever create a situation where they love us, or even stop trying to kill us. Why would ruthless action ever do that?

They hate us for various reasons, but the most obvious and pervasive one of course is the fact that we are occupying their god damn country and in the fighting with extremists there....a lot of them are getting killed.

Go figure that they aren't our biggest fans.

No one in their right minds (this excludes every idiot who supported the war as a way to create "freedom" in the middle east (AKA "conservatives") ever thought that by invading Afghanistan we could create a peaceful happy place full of capitalists who would love the USA. We attacked them because they supported people who attacked us.

Go in, blow the hell out of the bastards that attacked us, make sure everyone in the country knows we will be back to kick their asses again if they even think about letting that happen in the future. Go the feck home.

Any other "plans" for Afghanistan are rooted in stupid ideological mysticism that has no basis in reality or any chance in hell of ever happening.

 

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Rhodoman 
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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
Ptilk posted:
Any other "plans" for Afghanistan are rooted in stupid ideological mysticism that has no basis in reality or any chance in hell of ever happening.
This much, we can agree on.

Rho

 

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Aerlinthian 
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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
War: Big Government's Best Friend


By the way, at about 14 minutes in he gets into a very important point about the psychology that ropes people in to irrationally supporting what would normally considered atrocities.

And what worked so well on many so called conservatives under Bush worked equally well upon the so called liberals under Obama.

 

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-Mithan- 
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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
You have no business trying to "change" them anyways.

 

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the_great_ontex 
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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
That's actually a pretty racist statement....

lol at other people actually calling him intelligent from it

Maybe I can become a President candidate like him now

"We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Mexicans) to change"

"We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Africans) to change"

I am looking very Presidential and intelligent now

 

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Rhodoman 
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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
the_great_ontex posted:
That's actually a pretty racist statement....
Wow. No.

Rho

 

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the_great_ontex 
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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
So grouping together an entire nation of people, generalizing them into a stereotype and demeaning them is not racist.

Right.

Well a better term would be prejudice, but either way his statement is retarded

 

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Bat_Avenger 
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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
the term "racist" has been marginalized so much over the past three years, it has actually lost a lot of power.

 

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Rhodoman 
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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
the_great_ontex posted:
So grouping together an entire nation of people, generalizing them into a stereotype and demeaning them is not racist.

Right.

Well a better term would be prejudice, but either way his statement is retarded
I didn't realize that the hat in your icon was made of straw. plain

Rho

 

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the_great_ontex 
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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
laugh

I am not convinced you even fully understand what a straw man argument even is, considering your other posts in this thread General

 

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Ah-Schoo 
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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
Aerlinthian posted:
You would not need to "force change" on them if you weren't ***king with them every chance you got... Instead of being their unwanted malevolent benefactors we should have been instead friendly investors in pursuit of their earth resources.

Please ignore the fact that I was all for these wars when an (R) was in power.


No, it's too funny to ignore.

 

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Rhodoman 
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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
the_great_ontex posted:
laugh

I am not convinced you even fully understand what a straw man argument even is, considering your other posts in this thread General
You must learn to live with disappointment.

Rho

 

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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
Rhodoman posted:
the_great_ontex posted:
laugh

I am not convinced you even fully understand what a straw man argument even is, considering your other posts in this thread General
You must learn to live with disappointment.

Rho


laugh

 

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GrimTempest 
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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
We can't just leave them as they are because they believe infidels need to die, they have no tolerance for people not of their religion. Their religion has indoctrinated them to this belief. We're not talking about muslims here in the west who have adapted to a more tolerant mindset, we're talking about poor people who have nothing but their religion. They will always hate us simply because we have more power to shape this world than they do. Our way of life itself is an offense to their sensibilities and their god gives them permission to take and do what they want because they are the chosen people in their minds.

So yes, we do need to either change them or isolate them, the only other alternative is wipe them out. We have the right to do either because we're defending ourselves and our way of life just as they are. The strong win, the weak fade into history and thats the way of the world. If anyone seriously thinks that simply withdrawing from the region and ignoring them will prompt them to do the same to us you have a very weak grasp on reality. They live by religious law and kill their women for showing too much skin or meeting the gaze of men because it invokes lust in the men...they blame the women for this and kill them or beat/whip/stone them. They aren't free to believe in what gods they want, their religious government kills people who stray from their religion. This is the people you want to defend or claim should not be changed? Their way of life and belief system is a threat to anyone that comes into contact with it.

 

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the_great_ontex 
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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
I vote isolation. Their stupid teachings that *some* of them practice is not of our concern and shouldn't be. We're not the world's police force and we shouldn't be acting like it. Our involvement into that region won't change how they think about "infidels," in fact our relations with Muslims in general have gotten MUCH worse. They didn't attack us on 9/11 because they hated our way of life, they attacked us because we've been interfering with their way of life since the 80s and continue to

Not all Muslims want to chop the heads off of infidels and stone their wives in the street, I would actually say that part of Islam is a very small part that other Islamist don't agree with either. We have Christian groups that we obviously don't want to represent Christians as a whole also

 

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Allmightybob_MLF 
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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
GrimTempest posted:
They will always hate us simply because we have more power to shape this world than they do. Our way of life itself is an offense to their sensibilities and their god gives them permission to take and do what they want because they are the chosen people in their minds.


Really I would have figured it was because you invaded their territory, bombed their homes, and shot up their children. But no, it's the abstract concept of freedom which you embody that they hate. That makes much more sense.

GrimTempest posted:
So yes, we do need to either change them or isolate them, the only other alternative is wipe them out.


Wait, now you're advocating wiping them because you don't like their way life? Whhhaaaa...

GrimTempest posted:
We have the right to do either because we're defending ourselves and our way of life just as they are.


Oh you're defending yourselves now, okay.

GrimTempest posted:
The strong win, the weak fade into history and thats the way of the world.


Great attitude.

GrimTempest posted:
If anyone seriously thinks that simply withdrawing from the region and ignoring them will prompt them to do the same to us you have a very weak grasp on reality.


Seems to work for everyone else. I mean, when was the last time Syria really took out it out on Ecuador?

GrimTempest posted:
They live by religious law and kill their women for showing too much skin or meeting the gaze of men because it invokes lust in the men...they blame the women for this and kill them or beat/whip/stone them. They aren't free to believe in what gods they want, their religious government kills people who stray from their religion. This is the people you want to defend or claim should not be changed? Their way of life and belief system is a threat to anyone that comes into contact with it.


Americans have murdered more people in the last hundred years than Afghanistan could ever even dream of killing in that time.

 

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GrimTempest 
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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
lol...i knew that post would make some poor bleeding heart froth at the mouth.




good thing i still live in a country that won't kill me for voicing an opinion like your buddies in the middle east would laugh

 

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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
Because being ruthless worked so well for the Russians.

 

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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
BritonGuy posted:
Because being ruthless worked so well for the Russians.


the russians were a communist government and hurt their own people. no linear comparison there unless you want to discuss progressive liberals wink

 

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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
GrimTempest posted:
lol...i knew that post would make some poor bleeding heart froth at the mouth.




good thing i still live in a country that won't kill me for voicing an opinion like your buddies in the middle east would laugh


Ah yes, I'm a bleeding heart because I'm opposing your genocide fantasy.

 

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the_great_ontex 
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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
GrimTempest posted:
BritonGuy posted:
Because being ruthless worked so well for the Russians.


the russians were a communist government and hurt their own people. no linear comparison there unless you want to discuss progressive liberals wink


Yes, because the American Government has never hurt their own people before

chicken

 

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GrimTempest 
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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
i said to isolate or change them because our only other option would be to wipe them out. your reading comprehension fails happy

or i should say you read what you want to read because you don't like the truth. applause

 

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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
GrimTempest posted:
BritonGuy posted:
Because being ruthless worked so well for the Russians.


the russians were a communist government and hurt their own people.


so what you're saying is, they were more experienced at it and STILL failed.

seriously though, We need to GTFO of there after we decimate any agricultural land that is currently growing poppies.

 

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Allmightybob_MLF 
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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
GrimTempest posted:
i said to isolate or change them because our only other option would be to wipe them out. your reading comprehension fails happy

or i should say you read what you want to read because you don't like the truth. applause


Oh ok, you just want to round them up into one convenient place until they've been force into your acceptable of socials norms? Got any other great solutions to deal with your perceived Muslim problem?

 

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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
GrimTempest posted:
BritonGuy posted:
Because being ruthless worked so well for the Russians.


the russians were a communist government and hurt their own people. no linear comparison there unless you want to discuss progressive liberals wink


The Russians in Afghanistan were an occupying army. They had the same problems the US is having. The US knows that very well because the US was indirectly involved.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_in_Afghanistan#Foreign_involvement_and_aid_to_the_mujahideen

Newt's comment is dumb and this entire occupation is dumb. Recent history taught us that holding the region is a strategic nightmare and more or less pointless, but here we are making the same mistakes the Russians did.

 

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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
Allmightybob_MLF posted:
Oh ok, you just want to round them up into one convenient place until they've been force into your acceptable of socials norms? Got any other great solutions to deal with your perceived Muslim problem?


1 - No, leave them right where they are.

2 - Acceptable = not exporting terrorists with explosives to our shores.

Stop purposely misunderstanding.

Rho

 

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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
Sith_Mauler posted:
The afghans are descendants of every invading army that has marched through that part of asia since the beginning of time.

These people are born and breed to fight.



That is not how evolution works. No amount of militarism in my father will NATURALLY make me more violent or better at it. This is just a retarded 'them and us' mentality. If any of those people were swapped with you at birth, they would be doing and thinking all the same things that you do and think. THAT is why it is a stupid assumption. You open a history book that has a few paragraphs on a culture and you think you understand them in an historical AND psychological context? Impressive. I bet you found a history book that has equal input from everyone involved so it can be a fair and balanced view on all these cultures with no motive to tell a story, just because I have never seen or heard of one doesn't mean they don't exist

 

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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
GrimTempest posted:
BritonGuy posted:
Because being ruthless worked so well for the Russians.


the russians were a communist government and hurt their own people. no linear comparison there unless you want to discuss progressive liberals wink


Looks like the propaganda on both sides worked pretty well on you. Not communists. State capitalists. They had reason to say they were communist (we are trying to help the PEOPLE) and we had reasons to say they were communist (omg stop pushing for workers rights you are being just like them) but they never were communist in anything but name.

 

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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
wrong thread lol

 

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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
GrimTempest posted:
We can't just leave them as they are because they believe infidels need to die, they have no tolerance for people not of their religion. Their religion has indoctrinated them to this belief. We're not talking about muslims here in the west who have adapted to a more tolerant mindset, we're talking about poor people who have nothing but their religion. They will always hate us simply because we have more power to shape this world than they do. Our way of life itself is an offense to their sensibilities and their god gives them permission to take and do what they want because they are the chosen people in their minds.

So yes, we do need to either change them or isolate them, the only other alternative is wipe them out. We have the right to do either because we're defending ourselves and our way of life just as they are. The strong win, the weak fade into history and thats the way of the world. If anyone seriously thinks that simply withdrawing from the region and ignoring them will prompt them to do the same to us you have a very weak grasp on reality. They live by religious law and kill their women for showing too much skin or meeting the gaze of men because it invokes lust in the men...they blame the women for this and kill them or beat/whip/stone them. They aren't free to believe in what gods they want, their religious government kills people who stray from their religion. This is the people you want to defend or claim should not be changed? Their way of life and belief system is a threat to anyone that comes into contact with it.

If they stay in their country, you have no right to anything.

You only have a right if they export violence, which goes to why you should defend your own borders.

Now, do I like their culture of ignorance? No, but you can't interject yourself into their society and "change them", it doesn't work. It is the same as when you tell your kids "what to do" and they ignore everything you say.

The only way you can "change them" is by allowing them to see how much better things are in other parts of the world. Remember, Christians were just as backwardly retarded as Muslims in some countries are today and the only reason that changed is because America didn't have set religious laws, allowing people to follow their own faith in the way they believed. Over time, even the extremists were nullified. Fire and Brimstone brain washing doesn't work well in a free society.

 

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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
just to point this out...but i never claimed that i thought changing them was the best solution. i just agreed with newts comment that we aren't ruthless enough to do it. which to me means we shouldn't be as invested there as we are, its a political game and nothing more at the state its in now. if they're going to change they have to do it themselves as their culture changes and that takes decades if not centuries. religion has alot of inertia where change is concerned.

we should be doing everything we can to keep them isolated and change them through less warlike means. war only baits them into crazier actions.

 

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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
Rhodoman posted:
I think we should just park a carrier group off their coast and patrol the entire country with drones.

If we see poppies being cultivated -- boom.

If we see terrorist training camps -- boom.


Until they behave.

Rho


Rhodoman posted:
1 - No, leave them right where they are.

2 - Acceptable = not exporting terrorists with explosives to our shores.

Stop purposely misunderstanding.

Rho


Purposely misunderstanding? How about I go over to your house and child then -- boom.

Until you behave.

Rho.

No, I understand you quite well.

 

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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
Holy ****.

Anyone who thinks we can be "ruthless enough to force them to change" should not be the leader of a country. Implying that it's right or just to force change on a region of the world (in this day and age) is insane. That's the idiotic demeanor that led us into Iraq and Afghanistan in the first place.

 

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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
I agree. irradiate the agricultural land and leave.

its the only clear option

 

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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
Conservatives don't know what it means to be conservative anymore and Liberals don't know what it means to be liberal.



And people think I'm kidding when I say I want to move out of the US and not look back.

 

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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
Aerlinthian posted:
Conservatives don't know what it means to be conservative anymore and Liberals don't know what it means to be liberal.



And people think I'm kidding when I say I want to move out of the US and not look back.


Your problem is that you want to label everyone and then have them act according to the labels you have ascribed to them. Liberal and Conservative were never more than theoretical points of view. The world is considerably more complex. People are more complex.

If you can find a more suitable country than the US then go with it. It's a free market of countries you can choose. By staying here you have chosen. I don't think you are kidding I just think you lack the resolve to make a decision and live with the consequences.

 

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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
each side is swaying more towards its outside fringes in beliefs and its being fueled by the opposite side in a vicious circle.

kind of to be expected really from a society thats finding its entertainment in things like reality tv though. its quite clear that we've learned nothing from the history of the roman empire other than how to emulate its spectacular fall so well. we need a good zombie apocalypse at this point.

 

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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
The people who think getting "ruthless" will get us anywhere, are the same ones who swore "shock and awe" would end the war in a week, they would then welcome us as liberators with open arms, and the war would pay for itself.

IOW....idiots.

 

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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
Ptilk posted:
The people who think getting "ruthless" will get us anywhere, are the same ones who swore "shock and awe" would end the war in a week, they would then welcome us as liberators with open arms, and the war would pay for itself.

IOW....idiots.


Why are they not ashamed? Why do those who shouted down opposition to these wars still post as if they knew it all?

I know you don't have the answer...maybe they are just too brainwashed to see

 

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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
GrimTempest posted:
just to point this out...but i never claimed that i thought changing them was the best solution. i just agreed with newts comment that we aren't ruthless enough to do it. which to me means we shouldn't be as invested there as we are, its a political game and nothing more at the state its in now. if they're going to change they have to do it themselves as their culture changes and that takes decades if not centuries. religion has alot of inertia where change is concerned.

we should be doing everything we can to keep them isolated and change them through less warlike means. war only baits them into crazier actions.


The Russians were ruthless and that didn't get it done either. Newt's comment was dumb. History tells us it's a dumb comment. There's no solution to Afghanistan because there's nothing to win, no point to the war, and no superior strategy to occupying an area like that.

 

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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
GrimTempest posted:
its quite clear that we've learned nothing from the history of the roman empire other than how to emulate its spectacular fall so well. we need a good zombie apocalypse at this point.


The only thing that's clear in this thread is that you haven't learned from history. I think you're throwing out replies and comments without even knowing the history behind what you're talking about.

 

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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
never start a war unless you plan to finish it. our country has become a habitual offender of getting involved and not finishing, this is what i think newt was referring to. not sure if he's endorsing ruthlessness or not since i haven't read the full context behind his comments.

 

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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
BritonGuy posted:
GrimTempest posted:
its quite clear that we've learned nothing from the history of the roman empire other than how to emulate its spectacular fall so well. we need a good zombie apocalypse at this point.


The only thing that's clear in this thread is that you haven't learned from history. I think you're throwing out replies and comments without even knowing the history behind what you're talking about.


careful you might hurt my feelings cry

 

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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
They are adherents of "faith based reality".

Facts are fungible in that world view, easily and equitably replaced by "interpretations of reality" instead of just reality.

In that way, they can honestly believe in anything they want to. If the facts don't agree with their opinion, just replace the facts with your preferred interpretation of them.

It's not a conscious decision for most people of this group of self deluded psychopaths, it's just what they learned by watching their chosen leaders do it. That's how 35% of the country can still question whether or not Obama is a citizen. It doesn't matter that the facts prove that he is, by "interpreting" the facts they can create a sense of doubt, and that is all they need. Same goes for the war in Iraq. Even though we know the administration was told, clearly and without caveat, that there were no WMD there, yet they went on TV and claimed there were....they weren't lying, they simply "interpreted" the fact in such a way as to state that they were there.

It's a psychosis and it's not treatable at this time.

 

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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
the_great_ontex posted:
I vote isolation. Their stupid teachings that *some* of them practice is not of our concern and shouldn't be. We're not the world's police force and we shouldn't be acting like it. Our involvement into that region won't change how they think about "infidels," in fact our relations with Muslims in general have gotten MUCH worse. They didn't attack us on 9/11 because they hated our way of life, they attacked us because we've been interfering with their way of life since the 80s and continue to

Not all Muslims want to chop the heads off of infidels and stone their wives in the street, I would actually say that part of Islam is a very small part that other Islamist don't agree with either. We have Christian groups that we obviously don't want to represent Christians as a whole also


I think you mean non-intervention. The difference is interventionists get militarily involved, and non-interventionists trade and welcome diplomatic talk. Non-interventionists avoid war, but still defend their own country. Calling non-intervention "isolationist" is actually spin by pro-war politicians and pundits who can't see the difference between Hitler sweeping Europe and a tribal people on donkeys.

 

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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
GrimTempest posted:
never start a war unless you plan to finish it. our country has become a habitual offender of getting involved and not finishing, this is what i think newt was referring to. not sure if he's endorsing ruthlessness or not since i haven't read the full context behind his comments.


If he meant that, then it was even more dumb. Wars don't end like video games. You don't cross a finish line and reach a win screen. War is defined how the people at war want to define it, as is what events conclude the war.

We'll finish it when we go home.

 

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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
GrimTempest posted:
BritonGuy posted:
GrimTempest posted:
its quite clear that we've learned nothing from the history of the roman empire other than how to emulate its spectacular fall so well. we need a good zombie apocalypse at this point.


The only thing that's clear in this thread is that you haven't learned from history. I think you're throwing out replies and comments without even knowing the history behind what you're talking about.


careful you might hurt my feelings cry


I meant it. I don't think you understand the logistics involved in occupying Afghanistan and "finishing" a war against a bunch of random tribes who have been fighting various invaders as well as each other for a very long time. Is there any point to staying there?

 

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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
*blinks*

well...at least you've proved your not really reading my posts...

oh well. kinda getting bored of this one anyway.

 

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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
I take it you concede.

Never start a debate unless you plan to finish it.

 

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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
GrimTempest posted:
just to point this out...but i never claimed that i thought changing them was the best solution. i just agreed with newts comment that we aren't ruthless enough to do it. which to me means we shouldn't be as invested there as we are, its a political game and nothing more at the state its in now. if they're going to change they have to do it themselves as their culture changes and that takes decades if not centuries. religion has alot of inertia where change is concerned.

we should be doing everything we can to keep them isolated and change them through less warlike means. war only baits them into crazier actions.


I think the word ruthless should be replaced with stupid.

 

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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
The majority Afghans wanted someone to take out the Taliban. After it took control of Afghanistan, it treated the people horribly, especially women. It imposed strict religious laws, enforcing traditions that many Afghans didn't even follow.

Most Afghans have not been fighting back against the Americans. This is not like Russia's occupation.

We still aren't skilled at nation building, though. There is a lot more we could've done with a bit more creativity.

Ruthlessness is not, and never was the solution to making Afghans change. That is complete, utter idiocy.

 

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Subject: Newt: "We're not prepaired to be ruthless enough to force them (Afghans) to change"
Sith_Mauler posted:
The afghans are descendants of every invading army that has marched through that part of asia since the beginning of time.

These people are born and breed to fight.


how is hiding in caves and using women and children as shields fighting?

 

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