Fozzie_Bear posted:

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I thought we werent allowed to talk about that stuff?

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FineYoungCannibals posted:

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you are stealing, you can not justify it no matter how hard you try


Why i rob banks - An Open Letter to Bankers

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FineYoungCannibals posted:

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you are stealing, you can not justify it no matter how hard you try


Why i rob banks - An Open Letter to Bankers

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FineYoungCannibals posted:

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Why we rob you - An Open Letter from Bankers

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Reapist posted:

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You know, sometimes I get wind of a group I have previously not heard of then use Grooveshark to listen to their stuff and have bought several CDs as a result. It hink this guy pretty much nailed it. I however don't do any pirating, but I still think he is completely right. I have considered writing a book and oferring it for free on the web I think is akin to free advertisement.

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Reapist posted:

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Maybe so HV, but the artists themselves would have a harder time promoting it in all the places they needed to.

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HeartView posted:

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Music wouldn't cost so much if we could buy directly from the artists. I bet someone could create a music-straight-from-the-artist service using Amazon's cloud for cheap, giving the artists the bulk of the profits and still make a good living.

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Tipztoe posted:

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stealing is the weak way to resolve a problem.

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Elmador_MoK posted:

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Just throw the law and the content creator's rights right out the window because you want something?

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Elmador_MoK posted:

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Man, that level of entitlement (and the need to write so much about it) is what is wrong with modern America.

I could write just as much as he did about why I disagree, but some of the points are just baffling. He downloads because he wants to judge it, like books, after the fact? Caveat emptor. Risk is part of any purchase, lol. So what if he doesn't find that acceptable? Just throw the law and the content creator's rights right out the window because you want something? What a child.

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Elmador_MoK posted:

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I don't have an answer to your question

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Jezza_Belle posted:

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Elmador_MoK posted:

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Man, that level of entitlement (and the need to write so much about it) is what is wrong with modern America.

I could write just as much as he did about why I disagree, but some of the points are just baffling. He downloads because he wants to judge it, like books, after the fact? Caveat emptor. Risk is part of any purchase, lol. So what if he doesn't find that acceptable? Just throw the law and the content creator's rights right out the window because you want something? What a child.

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Risk is part of the purchase? since when?

When I create graphics for a company and I come up with three options, they don't pay for all three, just the one they pick.

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Elmador_MoK posted:

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Jezza_Belle posted:

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Elmador_MoK posted:

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Man, that level of entitlement (and the need to write so much about it) is what is wrong with modern America.

I could write just as much as he did about why I disagree, but some of the points are just baffling. He downloads because he wants to judge it, like books, after the fact? Caveat emptor. Risk is part of any purchase, lol. So what if he doesn't find that acceptable? Just throw the law and the content creator's rights right out the window because you want something? What a child.

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Risk is part of the purchase? since when?

When I create graphics for a company and I come up with three options, they don't pay for all three, just the one they pick.

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Your argument lacks all logical cogency. I too am a writer and make products that don't sell, regularly. If I DO sell a manuscript and it doesn't perform as well as a publisher expects, then they don't get to take the advance back. If you go see the latest blockbuster at the theater and its a letdown, you don't get your money back.

If you want to take your example, you can just not buy products, sure, which means you aren't taking the risk. But when they buy your graphic (or you buy anything) you are taking a risk. If they buy your graphic, you get paid, period. You can negotiate until judgement about these, in contracts and agreements, under the law too, but if you enter a sales agreement and have buyer's remorse, cry me a river. The original blogger's point is that he can just take all three of your graphics, no matter what you said, and maybe he will pay you, or maybe he won't, he is just going to use them and you can 'deal with it'.

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Jezza_Belle posted:

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In most instances, I don't pirate something that is available in the marketplace.

I subscribe to cable TV, if I miss recording a show for some reason, I don't feel bad about downloading it before it's available on HULU or OnDemand. If these services were as on the ball as pirates, 90% of my piracy would stop. This goes doubly for UK shows that I want to watch, but BBC America seems to think all we want to see is Top Gear, Being Human, and Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares.

Beyond that they regurgitate our own TV at us, nice of someone to be playing SciFi though, since SyFy can't be bothered to show it anymore.

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aon_mixed posted:

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Jezza_Belle posted:

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In most instances, I don't pirate something that is available in the marketplace.

I subscribe to cable TV, if I miss recording a show for some reason, I don't feel bad about downloading it before it's available on HULU or OnDemand. If these services were as on the ball as pirates, 90% of my piracy would stop. This goes doubly for UK shows that I want to watch, but BBC America seems to think all we want to see is Top Gear, Being Human, and Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares.

Beyond that they regurgitate our own TV at us, nice of someone to be playing SciFi though, since SyFy can't be bothered to show it anymore.

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but even the BBC delays new episodes from airing in the Americas by 6 months post-live date

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Jezza_Belle posted:

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That happens too, a lot more often than you'd think, and the little guy has no recourse without hiring an expensive lawyer. Which means the little guy has no recourse. It's expected, to a certain degree that you will have people that don't pay for the goods they receive.

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Elmador_MoK posted:

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Jezza_Belle posted:

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That happens too, a lot more often than you'd think, and the little guy has no recourse without hiring an expensive lawyer. Which means the little guy has no recourse. It's expected, to a certain degree that you will have people that don't pay for the goods they receive.

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Sure, bad things happen in this imperfect world. I know it is going to happen, of course! Doesn't mean it is right. That is what I am saying: that it is wrong, and the guy who wrote his little pirate manifesto is wrong. He is going to keep doing it, sure, and he is going to keep being wrong, and a thief.

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Jezza_Belle posted:

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Elmador_MoK posted:

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Jezza_Belle posted:

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That happens too, a lot more often than you'd think, and the little guy has no recourse without hiring an expensive lawyer. Which means the little guy has no recourse. It's expected, to a certain degree that you will have people that don't pay for the goods they receive.

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Sure, bad things happen in this imperfect world. I know it is going to happen, of course! Doesn't mean it is right. That is what I am saying: that it is wrong, and the guy who wrote his little pirate manifesto is wrong. He is going to keep doing it, sure, and he is going to keep being wrong, and a thief.

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I don't think he's wrong with expecting a level of quality, taste aside, from purchasing a $20 DVD. I've purchased $20 DVDs that were awful quality, obviously pulled off of an old well worn VHS instead of the master. I'm not talking about some burned DVD off ebay either, I'm talking about stuff purchased from retailers. I expect a DVD to be better quality than something I could download.

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FineYoungCannibals posted:

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you are stealing, you can not justify it no matter how hard you try


Why i rob banks - An Open Letter to Bankers

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HeartView posted:

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Music wouldn't cost so much if we could buy directly from the artists. I bet someone could create a music-straight-from-the-artist service using Amazon's cloud for cheap, giving the artists the bulk of the profits and still make a good living.

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Caledric posted:

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HeartView posted:

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Music wouldn't cost so much if we could buy directly from the artists. I bet someone could create a music-straight-from-the-artist service using Amazon's cloud for cheap, giving the artists the bulk of the profits and still make a good living.

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RIAA would never allow it because it would be taking money away from the labels. No one cares about the actual artist... its the labels that are affected by it.

Me personally I don't buy anything anymore. If I hear a song I like, I'll write it down and listen to the group via Pandora or some other free service. I'd rather sit through some ads and listen to the song and others like it for free then feed the labels.

As for this guy... he's just making excuses for stealing. Don't care what your reasons are... pirating is theft plain and simple. If you want to "stick it to the man" or just don't want to "gamble on the album" use one of the many many free ad-laden services that pay the labels and artists for the right to stream the song to you for free. A 30 sec ad won't kill you.

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Dark_EternalFF posted:

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I don't go stealing Aston Martins and mansions because I can't afford them.

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Ptilk posted:

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I agree with most of what he wrote.

In short, get with the program. I couldn't care less about anyone's "moral" take on the issue. Your "morals" mean nothing to me. I'm doing what I want and enjoying what I want the way I want and when I want it.

If you think that's bad. I don't give a damn. And in reality, more people are like me than are like you. A new business model is in effect and it's only going to keep moving more towards my way of thinking than yours. There is plenty of money to be made off of a business plan that incorporates free distribution and not creating a product full of crap that no one wants layered over the stuff they do want.

Businesses and artists who get this....will prosper. Others will spend their time qq'ing and waste the opportunity. Their decision. I've made mine, and I'm quite content with it.

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Ptilk posted:

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I agree with most of what he wrote.

I wont buy anything with stupid DRM or that requires me to install stupid software just to use it. I would happily buy stuff if it was packaged in the same, very usable and easy to use format that pirates package it in, and if it was available when the pirated version was...not 10 months later, in some god awful package that includes stupid crap that I have to wade thru to get to what I want.

I couldn't give a crap about price for the most part, if I like something, I'll buy it. But I want to buy it when I want, in the version I want, and use it like I want..not how someone else decides I should be able to do so.

I download whatever I feel like. If I like the stuff, I'll buy physical copies cause I like them. I like to look over on the shelf and see them, makes me happy. I will probably never open the copy, but I still buy it. Because I want to support the people who make the stuff I like.

The vast majority of entertainment (movies, games, books) I have purchased in the past 5 years...I pirated before I purchased. If I can't find a pirate copy, I figure it sucks so much no one bothered. I'm not going to drop 25 bucks on a book that I might not like anymore. Just never going to happen. I'll download it, then if I like it...I buy it. Hell, even if I hate it....I will end up buying it at times, just to support the person who wrote it in hopes that their future stuff wont suck (George R.R. Martin and Boring with Dragons comes to mind here).

In short, get with the program. I couldn't care less about anyone's "moral" take on the issue. Your "morals" mean nothing to me. I'm doing what I want and enjoying what I want the way I want and when I want it.

If you think that's bad. I don't give a damn. And in reality, more people are like me than are like you. A new business model is in effect and it's only going to keep moving more towards my way of thinking than yours. There is plenty of money to be made off of a business plan that incorporates free distribution and not creating a product full of crap that no one wants layered over the stuff they do want.

Businesses and artists who get this....will prosper. Others will spend their time qq'ing and waste the opportunity. Their decision. I've made mine, and I'm quite content with it.

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Elmador_MoK posted:

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More people are NOT like you. Only about 18% of Americans have illegally downloaded movies:

http://www.srgnet.com/pdf/Movie%20File-Sharing%20Booming%20Release%20Jan%2024%2007%20Final.pdf

I bet you would be content still if someone, who, you know, doesn't care about your "morals" stole your fine shelf of material goods. Maybe someone who doesn't care, and just does what they want to do will beat the crap out of on the street one night for kicks. They'll be cool with their decision too. Your statement sounds exactly like sociopaths.

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Immortal_Haze posted:

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Elmador_MoK posted:

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More people are NOT like you. Only about 18% of Americans have illegally downloaded movies:

http://www.srgnet.com/pdf/Movie%20File-Sharing%20Booming%20Release%20Jan%2024%2007%20Final.pdf

I bet you would be content still if someone, who, you know, doesn't care about your "morals" stole your fine shelf of material goods. Maybe someone who doesn't care, and just does what they want to do will beat the crap out of on the street one night for kicks. They'll be cool with their decision too. Your statement sounds exactly like sociopaths.

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Confused, it states:

"32 million Americans aged 12+ (18% of the US online population)downloaded a full-length movie at some point in the past – 20 million of these are regulars, having downloaded in the last month."

Does not say that these were all illegal downloads. Also does not account for people that obtained ripped copies from other sources.

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Talehon69 posted:

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If I wasn't going to purchase something, and pirate it instead, is it still a "lost sale"?

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Immortal_Haze posted:

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Elmador_MoK posted:

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More people are NOT like you. Only about 18% of Americans have illegally downloaded movies:

http://www.srgnet.com/pdf/Movie%20File-Sharing%20Booming%20Release%20Jan%2024%2007%20Final.pdf

I bet you would be content still if someone, who, you know, doesn't care about your "morals" stole your fine shelf of material goods. Maybe someone who doesn't care, and just does what they want to do will beat the crap out of on the street one night for kicks. They'll be cool with their decision too. Your statement sounds exactly like sociopaths.

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Confused, it states:

"32 million Americans aged 12+ (18% of the US online population)downloaded a full-length movie at some point in the past – 20 million of these are regulars, having downloaded in the last month."

Does not say that these were all illegal downloads. Also does not account for people that obtained ripped copies from other sources.

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Elmador_MoK posted:

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Immortal_Haze posted:

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Elmador_MoK posted:

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More people are NOT like you. Only about 18% of Americans have illegally downloaded movies:

http://www.srgnet.com/pdf/Movie%20File-Sharing%20Booming%20Release%20Jan%2024%2007%20Final.pdf

I bet you would be content still if someone, who, you know, doesn't care about your "morals" stole your fine shelf of material goods. Maybe someone who doesn't care, and just does what they want to do will beat the crap out of on the street one night for kicks. They'll be cool with their decision too. Your statement sounds exactly like sociopaths.

---

Confused, it states:

"32 million Americans aged 12+ (18% of the US online population)downloaded a full-length movie at some point in the past – 20 million of these are regulars, having downloaded in the last month."

Does not say that these were all illegal downloads. Also does not account for people that obtained ripped copies from other sources.

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Here is the article I pulled it from, that mentions (but doesn't link so be wary of it I guess) the guys who did the study saying it is about pirated movies.

http://torrentfreak.com/more-than-25-million-americans-pirate-movies/

Here is another study that clocks it in at about 21% of the adult population, complete with their methodology.

http://global.bsa.org/idcglobalstudy2007/

Summary of Findings:

http://global.bsa.org/idcglobalstudy2007/studies/summaryfindings_globalstudy07.pdf


But like all criminal thinking, those that do it think they are in the majority and justified.

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Ptilk posted:

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Downloading copies of media isn't stealing, it's copyright infringement.

There is no physical loss to anyone, digital copies aren't a limited resource that cost the content creator any money, time, or effort when they were produced.

Comparing that to taking unlawful possession of a physical object is silly. Youtube isn't stealing an artists music when they allow millions of people to listen to it by clicking. It's not like they have the musician in a cage somewhere and have to hit them with a cattle prod and make them perform it every time someone watches one of their videos.

The vast majority of people who watch a video online, are never going to buy a physical or digital copy of that video...but some are going to do so. And many more are going to become fans and tell others about them, go to see their live shows, buy a tshirt, or whatever. It generates new fans, which in turn, generates profits for the artist...if they aren't stupid and if they don't spend more time crying about people seeing their stuff for free than turning all that free publicity into cash.

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Motar98 posted:

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if it was as easy to rob banks as it is steal music, then i would be a bank robber. but i have no sympathy for banks or music corporations, i hate em both

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Ptilk posted:

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Here's a situation for ya.

I recently downloaded the entire first season of Game of Thrones.

Now, I pay for HBO so I had paid for the show already. I was more than willing to purchase a box set of the season....but it's not available. Anywhere. I want to watch the season again. It's that good.

So I download it for free.

Did I take money out of HBO or the producers hands by doing so? They aren't selling it, I already paid for it, but do you "it's STEALING!!11!!!" people still think I "stole" from them?

If so, how? And what damage did I do to their income by doing so?

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Ptilk posted:

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Here's a situation for ya.

I recently downloaded the entire first season of Game of Thrones.

Now, I pay for HBO so I had paid for the show already. I was more than willing to purchase a box set of the season....but it's not available. Anywhere. I want to watch the season again. It's that good.

So I download it for free.

Did I take money out of HBO or the producers hands by doing so? They aren't selling it, I already paid for it, but do you "it's STEALING!!11!!!" people still think I "stole" from them?

If so, how? And what damage did I do to their income by doing so?

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FineYoungCannibals posted:

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Ptilk posted:

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Here's a situation for ya.

I recently downloaded the entire first season of Game of Thrones.

Now, I pay for HBO so I had paid for the show already. I was more than willing to purchase a box set of the season....but it's not available. Anywhere. I want to watch the season again. It's that good.

So I download it for free.

Did I take money out of HBO or the producers hands by doing so? They aren't selling it, I already paid for it, but do you "it's STEALING!!11!!!" people still think I "stole" from them?

If so, how? And what damage did I do to their income by doing so?

---

thief
http://www.amazon.ca/Game-Thrones-Complete-First-Season/dp/B002IFT1ZA


it's even on sale with free shipping in Canada

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Chevya posted:

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Didn't make it through the whole thing. From what I read I think the guy is frankly just making a bunch of excuses to justify his behavior. Just because the RIAA is wrong doesn't make you right. Edit: Also I would like to read 'Why I rob banks - An open letter to bankers.'

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Immortal_Haze posted:

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I went around on Amazon with my Kindle looking for new books. Rejected a bunch of 7-10 dollar ones because I don't know them from jack and I'm not going to put that kind of money into a random book. Settled on a book for $1 from an author I didn't know. I've now bought 6 of his books for anywhere ranging from 1-10 dollars. He (or his publisher) gave me an inexpensive way to invest myself in the guy's work, and now I'm more than willing to pay big money for his work.

I think a lot of the big publishing companies are in trouble. They're doing old school business in a new world and they're going to end up hurting for it.

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tillsb posted:

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Basically I pirate because I can. I'm not going to buy it until they close every opportunity for me to get it elsewhere.

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Ptilk posted:

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I've spent thousands of dollars a year on books for decades. I've bought multiple books every week, year in and out, for as long as I can remember.

I have thousands of ebooks at this time, but I also spend more on books now than I did before I ever pirated the first one. If I really like a book that I download, I'll go online and order every other book they ever wrote and happily pay for them (I dropped over 4K at B&N.com last year alone) I would have never bought a single thing from them if I wouldn't have gotten that first book for free.

I love Steam. I have hundreds of games in my account on there, many of which I have never played. I tend to buy the studio bundles that include every game by whatever studio involved. Hell, I pirated Dragon Age and played for a couple of days....then bought 4 copies to send to friends and one for myself, just so everyone I knew could enjoy the game.

Every pirated copy isn't a lost sale, it's a potential sale they would have never made in the first place as I didn't care enough to drop cash on your stuff....until I experienced it.

I spend WAAAAAY more money on various entertainment choices (movies, games, books) now...than I did before I hoisted the Jolly Roger.

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Ptilk posted:

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Here's a situation for ya.

I recently downloaded the entire first season of Game of Thrones.

Now, I pay for HBO so I had paid for the show already. I was more than willing to purchase a box set of the season....but it's not available. Anywhere. I want to watch the season again. It's that good.

So I download it for free.

Did I take money out of HBO or the producers hands by doing so? They aren't selling it, I already paid for it, but do you "it's STEALING!!11!!!" people still think I "stole" from them?

If so, how? And what damage did I do to their income by doing so?

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DunesVladHarkonnen posted:

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tillsb posted:

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Basically I pirate because I can. I'm not going to buy it until they close every opportunity for me to get it elsewhere.

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Yep.

I could pay for something, or I could not. Until I have no choice but to pay, I won't. A sammich for free or the same sammich for cash...I'll take the free.


Is it wrong? Is it stealing? YES. duh.

People who try to justify it are just trying to make themselves feel better. Simple fact is it's done because it can be done, and something free is better than the same something with a price tag. People spout the 'I paid because I support the artist' claim, and I've done that (BSG for example), but to be fair those are the exception to the rule not the standard.


...and to use the bank analogy. If the bank left money on the street outside the ATM rather than in it and I could take it, no one would know or there would be no consequences to ME for taking it, my account would not be debited...yeah I'd take the money. duh.

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Terminius_Est posted:

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He pirates because the consequences are not severe enough. If he got caught and flogged in public, he probably wouldn't pirate.

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Jezza_Belle posted:

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Ptilk posted:

---

Downloading copies of media isn't stealing, it's copyright infringement.

There is no physical loss to anyone, digital copies aren't a limited resource that cost the content creator any money, time, or effort when they were produced.

Comparing that to taking unlawful possession of a physical object is silly. Youtube isn't stealing an artists music when they allow millions of people to listen to it by clicking. It's not like they have the musician in a cage somewhere and have to hit them with a cattle prod and make them perform it every time someone watches one of their videos.

The vast majority of people who watch a video online, are never going to buy a physical or digital copy of that video...but some are going to do so. And many more are going to become fans and tell others about them, go to see their live shows, buy a tshirt, or whatever. It generates new fans, which in turn, generates profits for the artist...if they aren't stupid and if they don't spend more time crying about people seeing their stuff for free than turning all that free publicity into cash.

---

now THAT is a service I would pay for!

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Caledric posted:

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HeartView posted:

---

Music wouldn't cost so much if we could buy directly from the artists. I bet someone could create a music-straight-from-the-artist service using Amazon's cloud for cheap, giving the artists the bulk of the profits and still make a good living.

---

RIAA would never allow it because it would be taking money away from the labels. No one cares about the actual artist... its the labels that are affected by it.

Me personally I don't buy anything anymore. If I hear a song I like, I'll write it down and listen to the group via Pandora or some other free service. I'd rather sit through some ads and listen to the song and others like it for free then feed the labels.

As for this guy... he's just making excuses for stealing. Don't care what your reasons are... pirating is theft plain and simple. If you want to "stick it to the man" or just don't want to "gamble on the album" use one of the many many free ad-laden services that pay the labels and artists for the right to stream the song to you for free. A 30 sec ad won't kill you.

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Motar98 posted:

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if it was as easy to rob banks as it is steal music, then i would be a bank robber. but i have no sympathy for banks or music corporations, i hate em both

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HeartView posted:

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Music wouldn't cost so much if we could buy directly from the artists. I bet someone could create a music-straight-from-the-artist service using Amazon's cloud for cheap, giving the artists the bulk of the profits and still make a good living.

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Surge_MT posted:

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FineYoungCannibals posted:

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Why we rob you - An Open Letter from Bankers

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ftfy

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levgre posted:

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Terminius_Est posted:

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He pirates because the consequences are not severe enough. If he got caught and flogged in public, he probably wouldn't pirate.

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Yup and they don't chew gum in Singapore because you get flogged for it. Riveting argument, chap.

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Terminius_Est posted:

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levgre posted:

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Terminius_Est posted:

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He pirates because the consequences are not severe enough. If he got caught and flogged in public, he probably wouldn't pirate.

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Yup and they don't chew gum in Singapore because you get flogged for it. Riveting argument, chap.

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I wasn't advocating flogging, just pointing out that this could be fixed if the consequences were severe enough.

For instance, his mother could be flogged instead.

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