Fozzie_Bear posted:

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so much for religious freedom eh?

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-Foxy- posted:

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No longer endangered
The bald eagle was removed from the federal list of threatened species in 2007, following its reclassification in 1995 from endangered to threatened. However, the species has remained protected under the federal Bald and Golden Eagle Protection Act.

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Reapist posted:

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We already give American Indians too many rights. We gave them so the could continue to live as they always had lived, but they no longer live this way. They use modern methods to harvest fish and crabs. The live in houses instead of teepees. Many lay around and collect free money then blow it on alcohol and worse. Our biggest mistake, as a country, was to make all the concessions we did then push them off onto reservations and isolate them so they could not be absorbed. If we had let nature take its course we wouldn't have the issues we have now. It is our own fault. Any group of people will say whatever they think will work to make you give them things.

Wait and see how jeune responds here.

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Lanacan posted:

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Reapist posted:

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We already give American Indians too many rights. We gave them so the could continue to live as they always had lived, but they no longer live this way. They use modern methods to harvest fish and crabs. The live in houses instead of teepees. Many lay around and collect free money then blow it on alcohol and worse. Our biggest mistake, as a country, was to make all the concessions we did then push them off onto reservations and isolate them so they could not be absorbed. If we had let nature take its course we wouldn't have the issues we have now. It is our own fault. Any group of people will say whatever they think will work to make you give them things.

Wait and see how jeune responds here.

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Sadly in Northern WI this is more fact than fiction.

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Reapist posted:

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Lanacan posted:

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Reapist posted:

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We already give American Indians too many rights. We gave them so the could continue to live as they always had lived, but they no longer live this way. They use modern methods to harvest fish and crabs. The live in houses instead of teepees. Many lay around and collect free money then blow it on alcohol and worse. Our biggest mistake, as a country, was to make all the concessions we did then push them off onto reservations and isolate them so they could not be absorbed. If we had let nature take its course we wouldn't have the issues we have now. It is our own fault. Any group of people will say whatever they think will work to make you give them things.

Wait and see how jeune responds here.

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Sadly in Northern WI this is more fact than fiction.

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Same in WA. I never saw it in Oklahoma though. Apparently different for some reason. Our best friends there that we will see this summer are Indian. But they did not grow up on a reservation so maybe that's the difference.

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Reapist posted:

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We already give American Indians too many rights. We gave them so the could continue to live as they always had lived, but they no longer live this way. They use modern methods to harvest fish and crabs. The live in houses instead of teepees. Many lay around and collect free money then blow it on alcohol and worse. Our biggest mistake, as a country, was to make all the concessions we did then push them off onto reservations and isolate them so they could not be absorbed. If we had let nature take its course we wouldn't have the issues we have now. It is our own fault. Any group of people will say whatever they think will work to make you give them things.

Wait and see how jeune responds here.

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jeune posted:

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Reapist posted:

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We already give American Indians too many rights. We gave them so the could continue to live as they always had lived, but they no longer live this way. They use modern methods to harvest fish and crabs. The live in houses instead of teepees. Many lay around and collect free money then blow it on alcohol and worse. Our biggest mistake, as a country, was to make all the concessions we did then push them off onto reservations and isolate them so they could not be absorbed. If we had let nature take its course we wouldn't have the issues we have now. It is our own fault. Any group of people will say whatever they think will work to make you give them things.

Wait and see how jeune responds here.

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You give Native Americans no rights. Their rights are all legal and come from the fact they were sovereign Nations before the arrival of immigrants.

This issue/all the other issue is not from the niceness of your heart... it is because the U.S. constitution dictates it... Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of religion... and these eagle feathers have been documented as being used for hundreds of years.

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Reapist posted:

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Lanacan posted:

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Reapist posted:

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We already give American Indians too many rights. We gave them so the could continue to live as they always had lived, but they no longer live this way. They use modern methods to harvest fish and crabs. The live in houses instead of teepees. Many lay around and collect free money then blow it on alcohol and worse. Our biggest mistake, as a country, was to make all the concessions we did then push them off onto reservations and isolate them so they could not be absorbed. If we had let nature take its course we wouldn't have the issues we have now. It is our own fault. Any group of people will say whatever they think will work to make you give them things.

Wait and see how jeune responds here.

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Sadly in Northern WI this is more fact than fiction.

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Same in WA. I never saw it in Oklahoma though. Apparently different for some reason. Our best friends there that we will see this summer are Indian. But they did not grow up on a reservation so maybe that's the difference.

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Fozzie_Bear posted:

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in Massachusetts they just try to keep opening casinos

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Reapist posted:

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Face it jeune, the world is ever evolving. Indians had several thousand years here without other people to upset them. But eventually everything changes.

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Reapist posted:

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But jeune, the laws should apply to all equally. You, not your parents have lived like your ancestors did. And the sooner you all get off the meal ticket the sooner you will stand up and be proud of your accomplishments and prosper again.

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Reapist posted:

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But jeune, the laws should apply to all equally. You, not your parents have lived like your ancestors did. And the sooner you all get off the meal ticket the sooner you will stand up and be proud of your accomplishments and prosper again.

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Reapist posted:

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That's all well and good jeune. I still say it was wrong to do. The Indians were a conquered people and should have been absorbed. End of story.

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Reapist posted:

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Well, that's true too. And hey, I am all for them having their rights to fish like they always did.....like they always did. No modern equipment.

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Fozzie_Bear posted:

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getting back to the actual OP though,

if the KILLING of the bird is part of a/the religious ceremony of the Native Americans than we shouldn't be getting in the way of that so long as it happens on the reservation unless otherwise stated in treaty.

Aside from that if we are furnishing requests for the feathers without killing the birds and that satisfies the ceremony, why kill the bird? its not like we're passing off pidgeon feathers as eagle feathers or something.

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BritonGuy posted:

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The casino thing makes no sense whatsoever and has nothing to do with the preservation of a nation, religion, or culture. It's a racist policy to only allow Indian Americans to open them.

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Fozzie_Bear posted:

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getting back to the actual OP though,

if the KILLING of the bird is part of a/the religious ceremony of the Native Americans than we shouldn't be getting in the way of that so long as it happens on the reservation unless otherwise stated in treaty.

Aside from that if we are furnishing requests for the feathers without killing the birds and that satisfies the ceremony, why kill the bird? its not like we're passing off pidgeon feathers as eagle feathers or something.

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BritonGuy posted:

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The casino thing makes no sense whatsoever and has nothing to do with the preservation of a nation, religion, or culture. It's a racist policy to only allow Indian Americans to open them.

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jeune posted:

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Fozzie_Bear posted:

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getting back to the actual OP though,

if the KILLING of the bird is part of a/the religious ceremony of the Native Americans than we shouldn't be getting in the way of that so long as it happens on the reservation unless otherwise stated in treaty.

Aside from that if we are furnishing requests for the feathers without killing the birds and that satisfies the ceremony, why kill the bird? its not like we're passing off pidgeon feathers as eagle feathers or something.

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I think that the U.S. govt just collects the dead ones they find naturally... like killed from high power electricity wires. The problem is that there is a huge waiting list and it can take forever to get what you need for a ceremony because you have to wait for them to find a dead bird.

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Sith_Mauler posted:

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and how many of these eagles are found the instant they die?

I am figuring most are already in some later stage of decomposition.

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jeune posted:

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Fozzie_Bear posted:

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getting back to the actual OP though,

if the KILLING of the bird is part of a/the religious ceremony of the Native Americans than we shouldn't be getting in the way of that so long as it happens on the reservation unless otherwise stated in treaty.

Aside from that if we are furnishing requests for the feathers without killing the birds and that satisfies the ceremony, why kill the bird? its not like we're passing off pidgeon feathers as eagle feathers or something.

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I think that the U.S. govt just collects the dead ones they find naturally... like killed from high power electricity wires. The problem is that there is a huge waiting list and it can take forever to get what you need for a ceremony because you have to wait for them to find a dead bird.

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Fozzie_Bear posted:

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well isn't that the sad but true fact of a species that until the US government enacted steps was on the verge of vanishing off the face of the planet? Regardless of how they got there, its nice that their numbers are starting to increase to the point of not being so critical.

Hunting the birds in the US is prohibited but since the reservation is supposed to be a separate nation, isnt that like the US telling Mexico and Canada they cant hunt them on their own land? It would be a sad fact if the birds vanished off the reservation due to overhunting by native americans but that not the problem or fault of the US at that point. It would be a Tribal issue.

if the problem is that Native Americans want to hunt the birds on US soil and feel its right because they simply are native americans, then thats a different thing altogether.

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Reapist posted:

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We already give American Indians too many rights. We gave them so the could continue to live as they always had lived, but they no longer live this way. They use modern methods to harvest fish and crabs. The live in houses instead of teepees. Many lay around and collect free money then blow it on alcohol and worse. Our biggest mistake, as a country, was to make all the concessions we did then push them off onto reservations and isolate them so they could not be absorbed. If we had let nature take its course we wouldn't have the issues we have now. It is our own fault. Any group of people will say whatever they think will work to make you give them things.

Wait and see how jeune responds here.

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Fozzie_Bear posted:

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I would think the environmentalists view it as simple math. You have 100 birds and 1000 Indians that want their feathers.

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TheNinthSeal posted:

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Reapist posted:

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We already give American Indians too many rights. We gave them so the could continue to live as they always had lived, but they no longer live this way. They use modern methods to harvest fish and crabs. The live in houses instead of teepees. Many lay around and collect free money then blow it on alcohol and worse. Our biggest mistake, as a country, was to make all the concessions we did then push them off onto reservations and isolate them so they could not be absorbed. If we had let nature take its course we wouldn't have the issues we have now. It is our own fault. Any group of people will say whatever they think will work to make you give them things.

Wait and see how jeune responds here.

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Come on, really? teepees weren't actually used a ton anywhere, but especially living in washington you should know, most of the tribes of the NW DID live in houses.

More to the point, I don't see why they should have to stick to their old ways to be allowed to use land that was generally bullied away from them but often just taken away. It is annoying for the united states, no question. It seems outdated and generally pointless. 'Most of them don't even use their money wisely.' There are a ton of reasons people use to talk about absorbing them. But NONE of them address the fact that it is just straight up THEIR land. That's like you stealing my house, and I manage to escape with my playstation, but years later you argue that I shouldn't have my playstation because I am not really getting good at any games, and YOU are super good at them. What makes america deserve to absorb their lands? America has far less claim to them than anyone else if it is for some reason proven that they didnt deserve their own lands anymore.

AND OT, I don't think any religion should let you kill an endangered or threatened animal. I have a great deal of respect for tribal religion, but 'threatened' means play time is over, and it's time to stop respecting beliefs. Ecosystems tend to be pretty delicate, and I would liken the chain reaction of a destabilized ecosystem to putting large amounts of toxic chemicals out in the wild, which is illegal. I don't think america should have any more say on the fate of the eagles than any other country

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Sith_Mauler posted:

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BritonGuy posted:

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The casino thing makes no sense whatsoever and has nothing to do with the preservation of a nation, religion, or culture. It's a racist policy to only allow Indian Americans to open them.

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really are you that dense?

state governments can decide if casinos are legal or not.

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Reapist posted:

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TheNinthSeal posted:

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Reapist posted:

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We already give American Indians too many rights. We gave them so the could continue to live as they always had lived, but they no longer live this way. They use modern methods to harvest fish and crabs. The live in houses instead of teepees. Many lay around and collect free money then blow it on alcohol and worse. Our biggest mistake, as a country, was to make all the concessions we did then push them off onto reservations and isolate them so they could not be absorbed. If we had let nature take its course we wouldn't have the issues we have now. It is our own fault. Any group of people will say whatever they think will work to make you give them things.

Wait and see how jeune responds here.

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Come on, really? teepees weren't actually used a ton anywhere, but especially living in washington you should know, most of the tribes of the NW DID live in houses.

More to the point, I don't see why they should have to stick to their old ways to be allowed to use land that was generally bullied away from them but often just taken away. It is annoying for the united states, no question. It seems outdated and generally pointless. 'Most of them don't even use their money wisely.' There are a ton of reasons people use to talk about absorbing them. But NONE of them address the fact that it is just straight up THEIR land. That's like you stealing my house, and I manage to escape with my playstation, but years later you argue that I shouldn't have my playstation because I am not really getting good at any games, and YOU are super good at them. What makes america deserve to absorb their lands? America has far less claim to them than anyone else if it is for some reason proven that they didnt deserve their own lands anymore.

AND OT, I don't think any religion should let you kill an endangered or threatened animal. I have a great deal of respect for tribal religion, but 'threatened' means play time is over, and it's time to stop respecting beliefs. Ecosystems tend to be pretty delicate, and I would liken the chain reaction of a destabilized ecosystem to putting large amounts of toxic chemicals out in the wild, which is illegal. I don't think america should have any more say on the fate of the eagles than any other country

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Look at sturgeon fishing in WA. They are a highly protected species of fish. Yet Indians are allowed to commercially harvest them. They run gill nets and bring them in like no one's business.

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BritonGuy posted:

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Sounds like a racist government enforced monopoly.

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Brother_Tempus posted:

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yes, anyone should be allowed to kill a bald eagle in the wild, no reason necessary


Want to save endangered species, take them out of the care of government, and allow individuals to own them


Worked for the American Bison as well as several African animals

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-Mithan- posted:

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Brother_Tempus posted:

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yes, anyone should be allowed to kill a bald eagle in the wild, no reason necessary


Want to save endangered species, take them out of the care of government, and allow individuals to own them


Worked for the American Bison as well as several African animals

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Sure I agree, but only if we can kill you.

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TheNinthSeal posted:

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BritonGuy posted:

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Sounds like a racist government enforced monopoly.

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Sounds like a really poorly thought out genocide/relocation done by the american government, and now we are all paying for it and so is nature. I'm not saying they are the good guys, in examples such as the fishing one, for example. But, in my opinion, ethics are situational. Not to a massive degree, but they are. A country with a tremendous amount of other natural resources exploiting the fishing in one particular area and pushing something to extinction is pretty crappy, obviously. A tribe that had many natural resources that gets put into that same particular area with very few resources doing the same thing is quite a bit different.

I know it's a problem, that is obvious. I just don't understand how you can say finishing the job we started so long ago and taking the rest of their land is the only obvious or ethical solution. It seems like you should be more compassionate. That's just me though.

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levgre posted:

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I've lived in Northern Wisconsin most of my life, and a lot more Indians I know were honest, hard-working people than do-nothing drunkards.

It's dumb when people act like an authority on groups of people they don't even know, and really it is ban-worthy to spout such racism. I guess it's just ignorance/arrogance though.

I'm not saying Native Americans don't suffer disproportional from alcohol abuse and disorders, it's just nowhere near the level that the stereotypes claim.

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BritonGuy posted:

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levgre posted:

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I've lived in Northern Wisconsin most of my life, and a lot more Indians I know were honest, hard-working people than do-nothing drunkards.

It's dumb when people act like an authority on groups of people they don't even know, and really it is ban-worthy to spout such racism. I guess it's just ignorance/arrogance though.

I'm not saying Native Americans don't suffer disproportional from alcohol abuse and disorders, it's just nowhere near the level that the stereotypes claim.

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True, but it's also racist to claim everyone who isn't an Indian is responsible for genocide.

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TheNinthSeal posted:

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BritonGuy posted:

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levgre posted:

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I've lived in Northern Wisconsin most of my life, and a lot more Indians I know were honest, hard-working people than do-nothing drunkards.

It's dumb when people act like an authority on groups of people they don't even know, and really it is ban-worthy to spout such racism. I guess it's just ignorance/arrogance though.

I'm not saying Native Americans don't suffer disproportional from alcohol abuse and disorders, it's just nowhere near the level that the stereotypes claim.

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True, but it's also racist to claim everyone who isn't an Indian is responsible for genocide.

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What part of "done by the american government" led you to interpret that as "done by white people." It was done by specific people in the name of a specific nation. People are now suggesting that same nation should get the benefit of the rest of the land because "they dont use it right."

Nowhere did I say white people deserve less, nowhere did I say native americans were above criticism. The situation sucks, but it is completely lame of you, bordering on total historical ignorance, to suggest that we should blame the native americans rather than our own government (the real culprit) for this mess.

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BritonGuy posted:

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Why should an Indian be able to open a casino while a black person gets turned down? Terrible modern racism.

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levgre posted:

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BritonGuy posted:

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Why should an Indian be able to open a casino while a black person gets turned down? Terrible modern racism.

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What's the law that says black people can't open casinos?

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BritonGuy posted:

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TheNinthSeal posted:

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BritonGuy posted:

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[quote=levgre]I've lived in Northern Wisconsin most of my life, and a lot more Indians I know were honest, hard-working people than do-nothing drunkards.

It's dumb when people act like an authority on groups of people they don't even know, and really it is ban-worthy to spout such racism. I guess it's just ignorance/arrogance though.

I'm not saying Native Americans don't suffer disproportional from alcohol abuse and disorders, it's just nowhere near the level that the stereotypes claim.

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True, but it's also racist to claim everyone who isn't an Indian is responsible for genocide.

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What part of "done by the american government" led you to interpret that as "done by white people." It was done by specific people in the name of a specific nation. People are now suggesting that same nation should get the benefit of the rest of the land because "they dont use it right."

Nowhere did I say white people deserve less, nowhere did I say native americans were above criticism. The situation sucks, but it is completely lame of you, bordering on total historical ignorance, to suggest that we should blame the native americans rather than our own government (the real culprit) for this mess.

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