Phlegm573 posted:

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If it was posted by some guy on FB, it must be true.





Also, Israel should apologize for firing all those hundreds of unguided rockets at Palestinian population centers.

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tenkly posted:

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He lives there. You sayin' this is shopped? lol please


What would I have you do? gee, I don't know.. stop supporting Israel?

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Phlegm573 posted:

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tenkly posted:

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He lives there. You sayin' this is shopped? lol please


What would I have you do? gee, I don't know.. stop supporting Israel?

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Ok. I will once you stop supporting Palestine.

The Israelis are hardly paragons of moral virtue. I am aware of this. However, the Palestinians have plumbed the absolute depths of human depravity that would make Conrad Black stand back in awe and horror.

They use their own children and schools as human shields. I repeat. They use their own children and schools as human shields.

Israel is teh horrible and suq and OMGLOL! Ok, I get your argument. But how on earth can you possibly defend the Palestinians?

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tenkly posted:

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this is what they don't show you in western media.

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Phlegm573 posted:

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No matter how you feel about the Palestinians. If Israel had a different dominant religion, we would not be having this discussion.

Would we?

How many "free Tibet" threads have you seen around here lately?

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tenkly posted:

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this is what they don't show you in western media.

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Azure-TheBlueOne posted:

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On a tangent, as a Christian nation, I really don't understand our heavy support and relation with Jews, yet nearly unmasked animosity for Muslims.

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Azure-TheBlueOne posted:

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I don't understand why we support Israel so heavily. They don't seem to be much better than any other country/people in that sector of the world, and with our support, it seems like we're enabling them to be much worse tyrants as time goes on.

On a tangent, as a Christian nation, I really don't understand our heavy support and relation with Jews, yet nearly unmasked animosity for Muslims.

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SirGarth posted:

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eh, i actually don't wholly disagree on too many points with Ptilk on that one... although i will say that the side that *doesn't* encourage children to blow themselves up and reward their families for it has an edge on the "who is more moral" argument... at least according to my sense of morality.

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SirGarth posted:

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eh, i actually don't wholly disagree on too many points with Ptilk on that one... although i will say that the side that *doesn't* encourage children to blow themselves up and reward their families for it has an edge on the "who is more moral" argument... at least according to my sense of morality.

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tenkly posted:

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Why not pull all support from israel until they get their [mod] together and stop breaking 200+ un sanctions like it's no big deal. Hold both sides accountable for what they've done, not turn the cheek on one and come down hard on another.. my 2 cents.

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PackHunter posted:

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SirGarth posted:

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eh, i actually don't wholly disagree on too many points with Ptilk on that one... although i will say that the side that *doesn't* encourage children to blow themselves up and reward their families for it has an edge on the "who is more moral" argument... at least according to my sense of morality.

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"We're slightly better than people who use children as bombs." isn't a very compelling moral argument in my books, but I guess I'm not the pillar of morality you are.

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Ptilk posted:

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I don't see any "moral" difference in encouraging children to look forward piloting gunships that bomb city centers and encouraging children to carry bombs into city centers. Both sides "reward" the families of the ones who die while carrying out such missions. Both sides honor their memory and make monuments to their "sacrifice".

The suicide aspect of course is pretty horrifying... but they don't have gunships.

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SirGarth posted:

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Ptilk posted:

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I don't see any "moral" difference in encouraging children to look forward piloting gunships that bomb city centers and encouraging children to carry bombs into city centers. Both sides "reward" the families of the ones who die while carrying out such missions. Both sides honor their memory and make monuments to their "sacrifice".

The suicide aspect of course is pretty horrifying... but they don't have gunships.

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i'm very comfortable being firmly on the other side of that position. i see a VAST difference between children who are allowed to group up and make their own decisions, and those who aren't.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomorrows_Pioneers

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Manegarm posted:

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Well they aren't because military service is not a choice in Israel.. 3 years mandatory for males.

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SirGarth posted:

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Manegarm posted:

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Well they aren't because military service is not a choice in Israel.. 3 years mandatory for males.

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yes, that's exactly the same as child martyrdom...

it's exempted for arab citizens of Israel, and there are other options and exceptions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Defense_Forces#Military_service_routes

but regardless, that's at age 18, and they're not indoctrinated to believe that blowing themselves up is the best possible goal in life.

if you see a moral equivalency there, then again i'm comfortable being firmly and absolutely on the other side of that position.

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YouMightSeeMe posted:

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Pointless to argue with Garth. A jew would never admit to the evils of Israel.

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SirGarth posted:

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Manegarm posted:

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Well they aren't because military service is not a choice in Israel.. 3 years mandatory for males.

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yes, that's exactly the same as child martyrdom...

it's exempted for arab citizens of Israel, and there are other options and exceptions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Defense_Forces#Military_service_routes

but regardless, that's at age 18, and they're not indoctrinated to believe that blowing themselves up is the best possible goal in life.

if you see a moral equivalency there, then again i'm comfortable being firmly and absolutely on the other side of that position.

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garth posted:

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i see a VAST difference between children who are allowed to group up and make their own decisions, and those who aren't.

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Manegarm posted:

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There is nothing moral about forcing the youth of your nation to occupy and oppress another people..

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Ptilk posted:

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There are no good guys in this situation. There are evil bastards on both sides who don't want peace unless that peace comes in the exact form they wish. Neither side is more "moral" or more "right".

Blowing up buses with suicide bombers isn't any better, or worse, than firing missiles from gunships into crowded city centers. The aim of both actions is to intimidate and kill in order to get what you want. Neither action has any effect on the reaction to it, you can bomb city centers till hell freezes over and you are still going to get people willing to blow up buses, and vice versa.

What can be done is to insist on current international law being followed. That law represents our collective best effort at stopping such events from taking place.

What comes across to some as "Anti-Israel" is a generally a reaction to the fact that the US government heavily support, both financially and strategically, one side of this issue and ignores any times they violate that law.....while loudly condemning the Palestinian side when they violate that law. Pointing out the fact that it takes idiots and evil bastards on both sides to keep this decades long abomination of an occupation going isn't anti-anything...except anti-god damned stupidity and anti-wanting to see it go on for another 50 years.

What comes across as anti-Palestinian on the other hand, is generally bigotry and hatred of Muslims.

Of course there are some people who actually do hate Israel or are actually antisemitic , but it's far less than the number of people who speak out against the actions the Israeli government is currently taking.

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SirGarth posted:

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Manegarm posted:

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There is nothing moral about forcing the youth of your nation to occupy and oppress another people..

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you clearly didn't bother to read about what the options are for fulfilling the service requirement, and what the alternatives/exceptions are.

and i think there is a huge moral difference between mandatory service to your country at 18, and teaching your children younger than 10 that there is no higher purpose in life than to blow yourself up for your country.

frankly, i'm surprised that's even debatable... but again, to each their own.

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Ptilk posted:

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I don't see any "moral" difference in encouraging children to look forward piloting gunships that bomb city centers and encouraging children to carry bombs into city centers. Both sides "reward" the families of the ones who die while carrying out such missions. Both sides honor their memory and make monuments to their "sacrifice".

The suicide aspect of course is pretty horrifying... but they don't have gunships.

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YouMightSeeMe posted:

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Pointless to argue with Garth. A jew would never admit to the evils of Israel.

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SirGarth posted:

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i think you're missing the point of the discussion... i know you hate Israel and all, but take a deep breath and try to focus.

simple question: do you think recruiting children to be suicide bombers and glorifying their deaths is morally equivalent to Israel's military service system?

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Orwyn_Blackheart posted:

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Where in Gods' name do you see him saying he hates Isreal?

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tenkly posted:

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Azure-TheBlueOne posted:

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I don't understand why we support Israel so heavily. They don't seem to be much better than any other country/people in that sector of the world, and with our support, it seems like we're enabling them to be much worse tyrants as time goes on.

On a tangent, as a Christian nation, I really don't understand our heavy support and relation with Jews, yet nearly unmasked animosity for Muslims.

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ineenia posted:

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All that has to happen for the Palestinians to live in peace is to stop defending themselves from Israeli aggression.

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Z-Elder posted:

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That is some nice AOE damage!!!

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Sin_of_Onin posted:

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It is pretty naive to act like the Palestinians havn't been screwed over royally. They are the kid that was beaten daily by their dad and grew up to be a psycho.

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