Aerlinthian
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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WI has a 1250' setback rule. Sounds like a lot?
Watch this short report to see if it is.
http://youtu.be/zTRdeLqqBCs (2:37)
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Eternal_Midnight
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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Do more studies to determine the actual impact of wind turbines on people. Make the setbacks enough that they don't affect human health.
The evidence is sporadic on the negative health effects, but should be further studied.
But for the love of christ don't simply say no to turbines in any case. That's just stupid, because the health effects of a turbine are NEGLIGIBLE compared to the health effects of a fracking well, or a mine, or pretty much any non-renewable power source.
Strange that the setbacks for natural gas wells, if they even exist, are significantly shorter, in spite of mounting evidence of the harmful effects of those wells and the impoundment pools of chemicals.
The best places for wind turbines are offshore, anyway. No obstructions, no people, fairly constant strong winds. But then people would complain about the view.
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Tych2
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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I would not like to live that close to one. Off shore seems to be the best place for them.
Eternal_Midnight posted:
But then people would complain about the view.
Ted Kennedy was the biggest opponent of them off the coast of MA. He didn't like them ruining his view off the Vineyard. At least now that he is dead we might get them installed.
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Aerlinthian
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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Eternal_Midnight posted:
Do more studies to determine the actual impact of wind turbines on people.
A study does no good here as different people are going to have different reactions. Years ago I used to team drive (OTR work) with a friend who was blessed with the ability to sleep through terrible roads and lots of racket. I on the other hand am a very light sleeper and am easily disturbed by any environmental effects.
For me to live next to a turbine would be a nightmare, I would be forced to either burn the thing down or move away. And it would annoy me just as much when I was awake. I just like a peaceful environment. The sounds of nature (rain, thunder storms, crickets, etc) are pleasing but ongoing artificial concussive rhythms would drive me batshit insane in no time.
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Cawlin
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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To my understanding, farms of wind turbines can have a devastating effect on local bird life too...
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Sgian_Dubh
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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Cawlin posted:
To my understanding, farms of wind turbines can have a devastating effect on local bird life too...
All the more reason to poison water tables with fracking chemicals.
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Cawlin
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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Sgian_Dubh posted:
Cawlin posted:
To my understanding, farms of wind turbines can have a devastating effect on local bird life too...
All the more reason to poison water tables with fracking chemicals.
Clearly that's what I was saying. Wipe the drool off your chin you fkn moron. I don't even know how true the whole bird death argument is, I've just been told by folks who live near turbines that they notice it...
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paulg_68
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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I don't believe that wind turbines can affect anyone's health. That's the go-to argument for people who know their real argument won't fly. You can produce a health study that will show anything is bad for your health. There are zero exceptions to that.
That being said, I have no great love for wind turbines. In fact I don't care for any power source that isn't reliable.
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Bjorvald
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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Sgian_Dubh posted:
Cawlin posted:
To my understanding, farms of wind turbines can have a devastating effect on local bird life too...
All the more reason to poison water tables with fracking chemicals.
Would be interesting to understand this more since fracking occurs thousands of feet under the water table.
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Cawlin
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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Bjorvald posted:
Sgian_Dubh posted:
Cawlin posted:
To my understanding, farms of wind turbines can have a devastating effect on local bird life too...
All the more reason to poison water tables with fracking chemicals.
Would be interesting to understand this more since fracking occurs thousands of feet under the water table.
Don't even bother with the whole fracking thing with these people. It's not worth running down their talking points to find out which of them are legit and which are recycled talking points from 30 years ago which are no longer a factor in the modern process... trust me when I tell you it's not worth your time.
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Eternal_Midnight
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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Bjorvald posted:
Would be interesting to understand this more since fracking occurs thousands of feet under the water table.
The EPA has issued reports that directly show fracking compounds found in water wells.
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paulg_68
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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Wind turbines and solar are not reliable. While they can both produce a lot of energy, you still have to maintain a backup coal plant to ensure the steady supply of power.
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Bjorvald
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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Eternal_Midnight posted:
Bjorvald posted:
Would be interesting to understand this more since fracking occurs thousands of feet under the water table.
The EPA has issued reports that directly show fracking compounds found in water wells.
If its the report I'm thinking of, it dealt with a single well that used very unusual methods and was not at all indicative of the technology in general or how it is used.
I'll stop and take Cawlin's advice though.
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Eternal_Midnight
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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paulg_68 posted:
Wind turbines and solar are not reliable. While they can both produce a lot of energy, you still have to maintain a backup coal plant to ensure the steady supply of power.
Maybe 15 years ago, but battery technology is making huge leaps and bounds at the moment. It won't be long before either battery technologies make the leap, or electric cars make the leap to the mainstream. (On that particular note, there are already companies looking to commercialize electric car batteries with 200+ mile range, and the entire car costs less than $25k).
What needs to happen in conjunction with solar and wind development is massive focus on the efficient USE of energy. Solar and wind aren't viable on their own because we are energy whores. Implementing smart grids is the next big innovation.
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Moe_Nox
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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I didn't see any of those turbines moving. Are they ninja turbines secretly generating energy without being seen?
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Eternal_Midnight
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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Moe_Nox posted:
I didn't see any of those turbines moving. Are they ninja turbines secretly generating energy without being seen?
The 1800's called. They wanted to introduce you to photographs.
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Ptilk
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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Most ground water contamination in the fracking process comes not from the fracking itself, but by improper handling of the fluid used in the fracking process while it's on the surface.
Having a wind turbine near your house is less disturbing than having a new interstate off ramp let out next to your house. That isn't saying much or course, as having an off ramp next door would seriously suck....doesn't mean we stop building roads however. Or stop building houses next door where there was always a beautiful field for years and years, or stop putting in power lines on public land because the people who live next to it don't like their view being messed up by them....
I would hate having a huge wind turbine next door, but that's the breaks. Either buy all the land for as far as you can see from your front door, or get used to the idea that someone might put something you don't want to look at on some of that land.
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Elkad
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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paulg_68 posted:
Wind turbines and solar are not reliable. While they can both produce a lot of energy, you still have to maintain a backup coal plant to ensure the steady supply of power.
Or gas turbines, or hydro, or nuclear. All of which are cleaner and safer, and all generate at a lower cost than windmills.
Of course gas makes evil carbon dioxide and hydro kills fish. Guess that leaves nuclear.
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paulg_68
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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Actually we can double our output of hydroelectric without building a single new dam. We just need to retrofit existing dams with more efficient equipment and add generators to dams that have none.
Currently we get 9% of our electricity from dams and we can get that to 17% while lowering the impact on wildlife. Or so says Scientific American.
Democrats are so obsessed with wind and solar that they ignore the more viable stuff so it won't happen until they're out of the majority again.
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ineenia
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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Ptilk posted:
Most ground water contamination in the fracking process comes not from the fracking itself, but by improper handling of the fluid used in the fracking process while it's on the surface.
Honestly we don't know that and can't know that until the energy companies are forced to tell us what they are pumping into the ground and how they are doing it.
Right now they are resisting both strongly,which suggest to me it is going to cost them more to clean up and make it safe than they are spending on lobbyist to keep what they are doing secret.
The republicans have also been making a push towards limiting the EPA's authority to regulate "new" chemicals appearing in our water supply.They aren't making that push for no reason at all,they are being lobbied to do it...which again tells me again they already know there are problems and they are trying to mitigated the damages beforehand.
BTW: yes Id rather 5 wind turbines inside of a mile from my house rather than a coal/oil power plant with in 50 miles of my house.I'd rather see them on off shore platforms,deserts,mountain tops,Wyoming ,and other cheap land not suitable for most other businesses or housing.
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Bonzoboy1
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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Wind farms are just so darn attractive, like scars on the desert.
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the_great_ontex
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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I think wind turbines are kinda cool. I saw a bunch when I was driving across the US of A. Pretty massive and impressive to look at if I may say so myself
I wonder how much lubricating oil those suckers bleed through in a year though. My guess would be a lot, but I don't know how much their fans weigh
That said, it would totally suck to live next to them though. Totally should build those things in places that no one cares about like the desert and the entire midwest
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eodoll
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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They should give them a much more sexy design then it would be okay.
I like the look of the giant satelite dishes and observatories... if they came up with something cool like that for turbines then more people wouldn't mind seeing them.
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paulg_68
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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If you like modern high tech scenery then wind turbines are fine. If you like a natural or rustic look then wind turbines screw up your view. So of course they always try to put them in natural or rustic settings.
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Jaedence
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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Bonzoboy1 posted:
Wind farms are just so darn attractive, like scars on the desert.
They have wind turbines up all over Europe and they look nothing like that monstrosity. I would drive down the roads and see huge wind towers and it felt like I was driving in the future. It looked amazing.
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Bonzoboy1
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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Jaedence posted:
Bonzoboy1 posted:
Wind farms are just so darn attractive, like scars on the desert.
They have wind turbines up all over Europe and they look nothing like that monstrosity. I would drive down the roads and see huge wind towers and it felt like I was driving in the future. It looked amazing.
Believe it or not that is the area leading into Palm Springs.
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LadyGodiva.
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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If they weren't so damn ugly...
The dutch did them right.
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Crackdoc
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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High-rise buildings should all be made to incorporate roof-mounted turbines and all should be made to replace 1/2 the existing window glass with solar panels.
It's the cities that use the most power, make them adapt.
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RHWarrior
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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Aerlinthian posted:
WI has a 1250' setback rule. Sounds like a lot?
Watch this short report to see if it is.
http://youtu.be/zTRdeLqqBCs (2:37)
What an idiot installation, right next to a house, virtually on top of it.
Of course that's not going to work well.
I'm sure pro-oil and coal people cream themselves to these kinds of biased, stupid reports.
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Bonzoboy1
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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What I can't understand is their criteria for choosing these sites, they were talking about using the lakebed we launch off of, it is used by many other groups and brings much needed money into Lucerne Valley, luckily the water table was too high. The one down south near the border is having problems with harming wildlife and being on an Indian cremation site.
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Vydor
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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I grew up near the oil refineries in SE Texas, I'd prefer some wind turbines to those things.
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Yukishiro1
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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LadyGodiva. posted:
If they weren't so damn ugly...
The dutch did them right.
There was a lot of handwringing when windmills first came into vogue in the netherlands about them ruining the landscapes.
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Yukishiro1
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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Crackdoc posted:
It's the cities that use the most power
I doubt this is true on a per-capita basis. I suspect people living in rural areas use a lot more power per capita, for a variety of reasons.
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reesescups
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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Eternal_Midnight posted:
Bjorvald posted:
Would be interesting to understand this more since fracking occurs thousands of feet under the water table.
The EPA has issued reports that directly show fracking compounds found in water wells.
Not to mention the increased earthquake activity triggered by the process...
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Vydor
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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reesescups posted:
Eternal_Midnight posted:
Bjorvald posted:
Would be interesting to understand this more since fracking occurs thousands of feet under the water table.
The EPA has issued reports that directly show fracking compounds found in water wells.
Not to mention the increased earthquake activity triggered by the process...
So, we really DO have earthquake machines!!!
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reesescups
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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Vydor posted:
So, we really DO have earthquake machines!!!
Pretty much - yeah...
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imaloon1
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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I love the idea of wind energy... Unfortunately we use the worst and most destructive turbine design for no real apparent reason...
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reesescups
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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imaloon1 posted:
I love the idea of wind energy... Unfortunately we use the worst and most destructive turbine design for no real apparent reason...
It is apparent that some people don't want wind energy to succeed...
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Ashmaele
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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paulg_68 posted:
Wind turbines and solar are not reliable. While they can both produce a lot of energy, you still have to maintain a backup coal plant to ensure the steady supply of power.
Nuclear tho
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ZigmundZag
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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Battery tech has a ways to go until solar and wind energy can replace traditional power sources, but the backup plant doesn't need to be coal. Natural gas will do just fine.
I think it's funny that people are complaining about the aesthetics of wind generators. Are coal or nuclear plants so awesome that people are begging to live near them or something?
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paulg_68
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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Coal and natural gas power plants occupy a tiny amount of space compared to what is required to produce an equal amount of wind energy.
People don't like living near them, but only 1% as many people need to.
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Yukishiro1
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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And they're probably poor anyway. So who cares? They also die from the air pollution from those coal plants, especially when they live very close to them. But again, they're poor. So who cares?
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imaloon1
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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They can fit those coal plants with stack scrubbers to clean them up.
None of you are looking at the EROI or the total energy input required to make any one of these better than the other though.
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ZigmundZag
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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It's not exactly a big secret that wind plants cost more than coal or NG plants, but the returns on renewable energy are going to improve over time.
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IvarForkbeard
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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George Carlin: We want them, we need them, BUT NOT IN MY BACK YARD!!!!
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Nestor_II
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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There is one health effect from Wind Turbines and is from where they are anchored, it they are too close to housing the turbine oscillation will travel through the ground and vibrate your house with a low level hum, that will eventually cause serious headaches and loss of sleep. Remember when these things are working the tower is vibrating and it goes straight to the soil and bedrock.
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ZigmundZag
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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Nestor_II posted:
There is one health effect from Wind Turbines and is from where they are anchored, it they are too close to housing the turbine oscillation will travel through the ground and vibrate your house with a low level hum, that will eventually cause serious headaches and loss of sleep. Remember when these things are working the tower is vibrating and it goes straight to the soil and bedrock.
That sounds like a bigger crock of shit than Phlegm has on his examination gloves at the end of the day.
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Eternal_Midnight
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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paulg_68 posted:
Coal and natural gas power plants occupy a tiny amount of space compared to what is required to produce an equal amount of wind energy.
People don't like living near them, but only 1% as many people need to.
Incorrect. Technology is advancing such that a single turbine can now produce upwards of 10MW. That is, of course, dependent on many different factors, including air density, wind speed, hub height, and rotor size. Of those factors, wind speed is by far the most important, by a factor of 3, which is why site selection is key. Wind turbines also directly generate AC power, rather than DC, so you don't have any losses in converting from DC to AC.
As far as alternatives to turbines, check out Windstalks. Although still mostly theoretical, they are silent, and generate electricity by working the turbine underground, as the stalk sways in the wind.
There is also new technology in development, called a solar updraft tower, which can actually create wind where little occurs naturally.
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paulg_68
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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Eternal_Midnight posted:
paulg_68 posted:
Coal and natural gas power plants occupy a tiny amount of space compared to what is required to produce an equal amount of wind energy.
People don't like living near them, but only 1% as many people need to.
Incorrect. Technology is advancing such that a single turbine can now produce upwards of 10MW.
Coal and natural gas power plants can produce more than 100 times that much.
And they can do it 24/7 regardless of how the wind is blowing.
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If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSgiXGELjbc "Everyone has a chance to become rich." - Groucho48 "Most of the human wealth on earth exists between the ears of live human beings." - theredkay1
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imaloon1
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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Eternal_Midnight posted:
paulg_68 posted:
Coal and natural gas power plants occupy a tiny amount of space compared to what is required to produce an equal amount of wind energy.
People don't like living near them, but only 1% as many people need to.
Incorrect. Technology is advancing such that a single turbine can now produce upwards of 10MW. That is, of course, dependent on many different factors, including air density, wind speed, hub height, and rotor size. Of those factors, wind speed is by far the most important, by a factor of 3, which is why site selection is key. Wind turbines also directly generate AC power, rather than DC, so you don't have any losses in converting from DC to AC.
As far as alternatives to turbines, check out Windstalks. Although still mostly theoretical, they are silent, and generate electricity by working the turbine underground, as the stalk sways in the wind.
There is also new technology in development, called a solar updraft tower, which can actually create wind where little occurs naturally.
OUTSTANDING IDEA!
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Eternal_Midnight
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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paulg_68 posted:
Coal and natural gas power plants can produce more than 100 times that much.
And they can do it 24/7 regardless of how the wind is blowing.
That's true. Did you know that you can put more than one turbine in a location? And did you know that the impact of a coal or natural gas plant isn't limited to just the location of the plant? You also need to actually mine the coal, or frack the natural gas, for the entire life cycle of the plant.
Wind power requires no fuel except wind, and with proper maintenance, could in theory be used ad infinatum.
And if you put turbines offshore, then the wind IS constant, and can produce power 24/7. I trust I don't have to explain to you why wind blows constantly where a body of water meets land.
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Cawlin
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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Eternal_Midnight posted:
paulg_68 posted:
Coal and natural gas power plants can produce more than 100 times that much.
And they can do it 24/7 regardless of how the wind is blowing.
That's true. Did you know that you can put more than one turbine in a location? And did you know that the impact of a coal or natural gas plant isn't limited to just the location of the plant? You also need to actually mine the coal, or frack the natural gas, for the entire life cycle of the plant.
Wind power requires no fuel except wind, and with proper maintenance, could in theory be used ad infinatum.
And if you put turbines offshore, then the wind IS constant, and can produce power 24/7. I trust I don't have to explain to you why wind blows constantly where a body of water meets land.
Why then aren't more wind turbines being put offshore?
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ZigmundZag
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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We've already discussed this. Because power plants need to be placed by poor people.
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Cawlin
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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So, there is no answer?
Or could it be because offshore wind turbines are vastly more expensive to build and maintain than those on solid ground, thus negating any benefit to them based on cost?
And in all honesty I have no idea whether or not they're more expensive to have offshore than on land, but it seems likely to me that it must be more pricey.
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Yukishiro1
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Do you like the idea of wind turbines enough to live this close to them?
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They're harder to site than you might think. They arn't really an option at the moment if the water's deeper than 200ish feet. It's hard to find places you can site them that are shallow enough and not next to some rich person.
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