Eternal_Midnight
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Meet the man who won over 15 million playing blackjack.
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http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/04/the-man-who-broke-atlantic-city/8900/
BLACKJACK PLAYER TAKES TROPICANA
FOR NEARLY $6 MILLION,
SINGLE-HANDEDLY RUINS CASINO’S MONTH
But the story was even bigger than that. Johnson’s assault on the Tropicana was merely the latest in a series of blitzes he’d made on Atlantic City’s gambling establishments. In the four previous months, he’d taken $5 million from the Borgata casino and another $4 million from Caesars. Caesars had cut him off, he says, and then effectively banned him from its casinos worldwide.
Fifteen million dollars in winnings from three different casinos? Nobody gets that lucky. How did he do it?
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PhillsburyBandit
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Meet the man who won over 15 million playing blackjack.
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How can they ban him without proving he cheated? What a bunch of asshole scumbags.
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Tych2
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Meet the man who won over 15 million playing blackjack.
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Private company?
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Afio
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Meet the man who won over 15 million playing blackjack.
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No one is that lucky.
I have seen some crazy black jack players.
I was all thrilled when I won around $400.00.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Meet the man who won over 15 million playing blackjack.
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Card counting in the proper rulesets of Blackjack can definitely make you money.
Not me -- but people who can count, paired with the right size shoe, paired with the right double/payoff rules, paired with proper betting strategy.
We've discussed it here before. Blackjack is one of the few games that remain where you can really take the casino to town, or play a containment game where you are virtually guaranteed to never lose money so long as you don't over-bet your properly deep stack.
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Aerlinthian
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Meet the man who won over 15 million playing blackjack.
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PhillsburyBandit posted:
How can they ban him without proving he cheated? What a bunch of asshole scumbags.
I'm not even a card player and I've LONG known casinos can ban any gambler they want to.
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Tych2
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Meet the man who won over 15 million playing blackjack.
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He probably has an eidetic memory.
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Eternal_Midnight
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Meet the man who won over 15 million playing blackjack.
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The article says that it was shown that he wasn't cheating in any way.
He's been in the industry for several decades, both as an employee of gambling establishments, as well as a regulator. He basically negotiated with the casino, who was trying to entice him to play, getting a significant loss discount of 20% (so if he lost 500k, he's only pay 400k) as well as other changes to reduce the house advantage. At the end of the article it says he had basically negotiated with the senior managers of the casinos to effectively give himself slightly worse than 50-50 odds.
He's also very good at knowning which cards to play, as well as doing the math.
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Afio
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This is way out of my league
"The house’s hand showed an upturned five. Arrayed on the table before him were the four eights. He was allowed to double down—to double his bet—on any hand, so when he was dealt a three on the first of his hands, he doubled his bet on that one, to $200,000. When his second hand was dealt a two, he doubled down on that, too. When he was dealt a three and a two on the next two hands, he says, he doubled down on those, for a total wager of $800,000."
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Cawlin
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So, what I always wondered was if counting cards mentally (as in, with no other devices or the like other than your own ability to remember things) was actually cheating that can get you fined or prosecuted or if it is just the sort of thing that a casino can ban you for.
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Aerlinthian
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Meet the man who won over 15 million playing blackjack.
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Afio posted:
This is way out of my league
"The house’s hand showed an upturned five. Arrayed on the table before him were the four eights. He was allowed to double down—to double his bet—on any hand, so when he was dealt a three on the first of his hands, he doubled his bet on that one, to $200,000. When his second hand was dealt a two, he doubled down on that, too. When he was dealt a three and a two on the next two hands, he says, he doubled down on those, for a total wager of $800,000."
Wow!
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Yossarian_42
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Meet the man who won over 15 million playing blackjack.
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I have always assumed that sometime in the 70s the casinos switched to a shuffling and deck swapping strategy that made card counting literally impossible.
If they have not then they deserve to lose their money.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Meet the man who won over 15 million playing blackjack.
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Yossarian_42 posted:
I have always assumed that sometime in the 70s the casinos switched to a shuffling and deck swapping strategy that made card counting literally impossible.
If they have not then they deserve to lose their money.
Some tables play with shufflers.
Many Blackjack players who know anything about the game refuse to sit at a table with a shuffler, so they have to offer some non-shuffler tables.
I'm not big time, but even *I* won't sit down at a table with an auto-sort shuffler.
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Moe_Nox
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Meet the man who won over 15 million playing blackjack.
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INSIDE JOB!
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Koneg
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Meet the man who won over 15 million playing blackjack.
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PhillsburyBandit posted:
How can they ban him without proving he cheated?
"We reserve the right to refuse service"
Hello?
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Yossarian_42
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Meet the man who won over 15 million playing blackjack.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
Many Blackjack players who know anything about the game refuse to sit at a table with a shuffler, so they have to offer some non-shuffler tables.
It seems like if casinos went to 100% shufflers then they would have to deal with it. If they chose not to play then the casino is effortlessly eliminating the best players who are the one most likely to actually win money.
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Koneg
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Meet the man who won over 15 million playing blackjack.
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Yossarian_42 posted:
Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
Many Blackjack players who know anything about the game refuse to sit at a table with a shuffler, so they have to offer some non-shuffler tables.
It seems like if casinos went to 100% shufflers then they would have to deal with it. If they chose not to play then the casino is effortlessly eliminating the best players who are the one most likely to actually win money.
You're not thinking clearly.
For every one guy who rapes the casino, there are a thousand who think "Ha! I got a system! I'll win!"
THAT is why the casinos cater to them.
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Taliesihne
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Meet the man who won over 15 million playing blackjack.
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Cawlin posted:
So, what I always wondered was if counting cards mentally (as in, with no other devices or the like other than your own ability to remember things) was actually cheating that can get you fined or prosecuted or if it is just the sort of thing that a casino can ban you for.
It's not cheating, but Casinos will ban you for it.
And shufflers won't prevent you from counting cards.
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Mastara
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Meet the man who won over 15 million playing blackjack.
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Who cares if they banned him the dude made 6 million. Id be set for life with that.
Gimme 6 million and I'll ban myself from pretty much anywhere. Willfully.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Meet the man who won over 15 million playing blackjack.
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Taliesihne posted:
And shufflers won't prevent you from counting cards.
Uhm... no. That's incorrect.
Shufflers are used by picking up the cards off the table and feeding them back in after every turn of play. Therefore things are kept essentially random at all times.
Counting doesn't work at all on a modern shuffler, because all the cards are back in play each round. There are no cards nothing "used up" to "count".
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Koneg
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Meet the man who won over 15 million playing blackjack.
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Taliesihne posted:
And shufflers won't prevent you from counting cards.
Free tip: Never, ever, go into a casino.
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reesescups
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Meet the man who won over 15 million playing blackjack.
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Both AA and Koneg are tripping over themselves to be dumb...
Grats Tali - nice score!
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Koneg
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Meet the man who won over 15 million playing blackjack.
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reesescups posted:
Both AA and Koneg are tripping over themselves to be dumb...
Grats Tali - nice score!
Please explain to us your whiz-bang sure-fire can't-miss card counting strategy that works with every card back in play on every hand.
This should be fascinating.
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reesescups
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Meet the man who won over 15 million playing blackjack.
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Koneg posted:
reesescups posted:
Both AA and Koneg are tripping over themselves to be dumb...
Grats Tali - nice score!
Please explain to us your whiz-bang sure-fire can't-miss card counting strategy that works with every card back in play on every hand.
This should be fascinating.
Neither I nor Tali said anything about:
a whiz-bang sure-fire can't-miss card counting strategy that works
Pretty sure what Tali said was posted:
And shufflers won't prevent you from counting cards.
learn how to read and don't be so quick to be a dumbass!!!
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Taliesihne
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Meet the man who won over 15 million playing blackjack.
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I'm gonna go with the assumption that this is so simple you two can't see it.
The speed at which cards are shuffled and their randomness in the deck does not change the math involved in calculating probability.
Card counting doesn't mean you've memorized the sequence of the cards in the deck. It means you are able to predict the deck based on math.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Meet the man who won over 15 million playing blackjack.
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wtf are you talking about reese?
Am I missing some realllly obscure semantic score here?
As much as I've played blackjack over the last 25 years, I'm betting not. But, go ahead and tell me if I am...
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Mastara
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Spades > black jack
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Meet the man who won over 15 million playing blackjack.
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Taliesihne posted:
Card counting doesn't mean you've memorized the sequence of the cards in the deck. It means you are able to predict the deck based on math.
Uhm... wut are you talking about that invalidates what I was saying?
Do you know how cards are racked and shuffled in casinos, in standard 1-hand vs standard multi-deck vs auto-shufflers?
The whole premise of most blackjack counting schemes is keeping track of how many (or exactly which) high or low cards have been spent AND NOT PUT BACK INTO ACTIVE PLAY BEFORE THE CUT IS REACHED. (Which an auto-shuffler renders moot because all cards are in play at all times). That way you can see when the remaining cards in play now have the odds imbalanced toward producing more high or low cards. And, uhm... I don't mean the probability of 1 card coming up in 1 draw of 100. I mean the favorable or unfavorable balance of the structure of the remaining hands, across the entirety of that 100 cards.
If you need a book I can recommend a few...
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Taliesihne
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Meet the man who won over 15 million playing blackjack.
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The books you are reading must have been written before 1962.
You can count cards (and be successful at it) with shufflers. Without using shuffle tracking.
I am really doubting that 'you've been playing for 25 years' if you don't know how to keep the count on a black jack deck. The shuffler does not change that.
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PhillsburyBandit
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Meet the man who won over 15 million playing blackjack.
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Koneg posted:
PhillsburyBandit posted:
How can they ban him without proving he cheated?
"We reserve the right to refuse service"
Hello?
Yes unless you're losing then you can use their services all you want even if you're cheating! I think its funny as hell that a business that scams money out of so many people can't handle it being done back to them minus the scam part since you know, they weren't able to prove that. And no I don't think its illegal to deny the guy services I just think its unethical to do it without proving he cheated.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Tali... whatever you're blathering on about, it's either based on seeing an entire round of cards coming out of an auto-shuffler thinking that's going to create any statistically significant count you can use (it won't), or, it is some other nonsensical method based on yielding mystic insight (it won't).
As long as you have 6 (or 7, or 8) full decks in play and they're shuffled after each deal, there is no workable advantage in card counting. The odds reset each round to normal, with no 'count value' accrued.
By "auto shuffler" I mean "continuous shuffler", if that's the BS semantic point you're trying to play, here.
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Z-Elder
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The single deck days ruled. Now you just can't count.
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eodoll
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you cant count mentally either.. its considered cheating.
are people allowed to group play? as in all 6 playing as sa team against the dealer?
group play+counting is pretty much a guaranteed win strategy.
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Koneg
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Meet the man who won over 15 million playing blackjack.
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Taliesihne posted:
You can count cards (and be successful at it) with shufflers.
/facepalm
Counting cards means keeping a running track of high and low cards that have been played and been burned (not put back into the deck).
Please to be explaining how you "count" the cards that have been played when they have been put back into the farking deck?
Seriously? WTF?
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cabbyman
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Meet the man who won over 15 million playing blackjack.
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Aerlinthian posted:
Afio posted:
This is way out of my league
"The house’s hand showed an upturned five. Arrayed on the table before him were the four eights. He was allowed to double down—to double his bet—on any hand, so when he was dealt a three on the first of his hands, he doubled his bet on that one, to $200,000. When his second hand was dealt a two, he doubled down on that, too. When he was dealt a three and a two on the next two hands, he says, he doubled down on those, for a total wager of $800,000."
Wow!
Always double on 10 or 11! 
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eodoll
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Subject:
Meet the man who won over 15 million playing blackjack.
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Koneg posted:
Taliesihne posted:
You can count cards (and be successful at it) with shufflers.
/facepalm
Counting cards means keeping a running track of high and low cards that have been played and been burned (not put back into the deck).
Please to be explaining how you "count" the cards that have been played when they have been put back into the farking deck?
Seriously? WTF?
i dont think they use a new deck for every hand.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Subject:
Meet the man who won over 15 million playing blackjack.
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eodoll posted:
i dont think they use a new deck for every hand.
Auto shufflers... aka continuous shufflers... shuffle the cards back in on the fly and deal each new hand (round) as though it was the first. The odds reset-to-neutral every single hand.
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the_great_ontex
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Subject:
Meet the man who won over 15 million playing blackjack.
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I was going to say, good casinos will have a new deck every hand
This is more of a matter of luck, I would say, without automatically assuming he cheated which there doesn't seem to be any evidence of
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eodoll
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Subject:
Meet the man who won over 15 million playing blackjack.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
eodoll posted:
i dont think they use a new deck for every hand.
Auto shufflers... aka continuous shufflers... shuffle the cards back in on the fly and deal each new hand (round) as though it was the first. The odds reset-to-neutral every single hand.
I dont think they all do that - Granted, I haven't gambled in a long time. But last time was in vegas and they would shuffle and deal from the deck until it was about half empty then they'd start with another deck set from the auto-shuffler.
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Seething199
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Meet the man who won over 15 million playing blackjack.
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single deck is a miserable experience. and the benefits of counting are minimal anyways in single deck. the whole point of seriously counting is to hit a really hot table with like an 8 deck shoe so you can ride it for a while. by the time the count is really in your favor in single deck, they'll be shuffling 1 or 2 hands later.
last i heard, counting isn't even against the rules in atlantic city. either the guy is crazy lucky or he was working with a team.
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Koneg
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Subject:
Meet the man who won over 15 million playing blackjack.
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eodoll posted:
i dont think they use a new deck for every hand.
When auto shufflers are being used they do. Sometimes they shuffle same deck each hand, usually though it's one deck is in play while the other is shuffled and they switch off each hand. Lots of different ways they can do it so it just depends on the casino.
The whole point of using shufflers is to utterly defeat card counting... which leaves the question posed to Tal earlier: WTF?
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Jaedence
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Meet the man who won over 15 million playing blackjack.
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Taliesihne posted:
The books you are reading must have been written before 1962.
You can count cards (and be successful at it) with shufflers. Without using shuffle tracking.
I am really doubting that 'you've been playing for 25 years' if you don't know how to keep the count on a black jack deck. The shuffler does not change that.
I am going to join the argument against you in saying that I don't think you really understand how card counting works.
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