Elocism posted:

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you can take it to HR. call it harassment or hostile work environment osmethne

it is against the law to retaliate against you

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Halloweve posted:

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osmethne..never even heard of that word before..I will look it up .

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Elocism posted:

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Halloweve posted:

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osmethne..never even heard of that word before..I will look it up .

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here is the definition:

STFU NOOB

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Halloweve posted:

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Anyhow..they do know about it. She is one day funny laughs and giggles..next day, pissed off and on the warpath. Men women and children fear her wrath. She only weighs like 100 pounds..but look out.
They look it over because she works hard..I like and appreciate that very much about her.
But she does not play fair. Ever.

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Halloweve posted:

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Thank you for the help..I wasn't sure if I should just blow it off..or stand up for the many.
I am a real woman..and she is actually harder on women than men..in general..but I have seen it both ways..if a man is not interested in her charm..she treats them differently.

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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uh for what? some of you are sorta funny. you can't sue a company for having an employee who is an asshole.

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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uh for what? some of you are sorta funny. you can't sue a company for having an employee who is an asshole.

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4. The “Higher Up” Managers Shrug-off Employee Complaints

If there’s anything that I hear over and over again it’s that an employee complained about a bully boss to a higher level manager, and the higher level manager just shrugs it off, taking no action whatsoever. Defense-side lawyers are trying hard to train managers not to do this, but they do it anyway.

So what does this mean for you as an employee? You should complain to your manager, your HR person, or your boss’ boss. However, expect them not to do much, if anything, about your problem. You should carefully document that you did make these complaints. Send the boss's boss an e-mail confirming that you had a conversation with them. Briefly summarize the key points and blind copy yourself to a personal e-mail address outside the company before you hit SEND.

This way you will have a copy of the e-mail that shows it was sent to your manager's boss with the date and the time. It will then be the company's burden to show (in court or in front of the EEOC) that it responded to you. Will they have? Probably not. Often a boss responds with comments like “I’m not a babysitter” or “boys will be boys” or “I want everyone here to act like adults.” They think that such a cursory response is enough, but it’s not. Their lack of responsiveness to good faith employee concerns is a big cause of employee lawsuits, and a big reason why employees win those suits later on down the road.

Sansfear posted:

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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uh for what? some of you are sorta funny. you can't sue a company for having an employee who is an asshole.

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No, but you can if HR refuses to address harassment charges. That is their job.

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Lyken-P posted:

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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uh for what? some of you are sorta funny. you can't sue a company for having an employee who is an asshole.

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http://undercoverlawyer.hubpages.com/hub/Hostile-Work-Environment-How-Bully-Bosses-Cause-Lawsuits

4. The “Higher Up” Managers Shrug-off Employee Complaints

If there’s anything that I hear over and over again it’s that an employee complained about a bully boss to a higher level manager, and the higher level manager just shrugs it off, taking no action whatsoever. Defense-side lawyers are trying hard to train managers not to do this, but they do it anyway.

So what does this mean for you as an employee? You should complain to your manager, your HR person, or your boss’ boss. However, expect them not to do much, if anything, about your problem. You should carefully document that you did make these complaints. Send the boss's boss an e-mail confirming that you had a conversation with them. Briefly summarize the key points and blind copy yourself to a personal e-mail address outside the company before you hit SEND.

This way you will have a copy of the e-mail that shows it was sent to your manager's boss with the date and the time. It will then be the company's burden to show (in court or in front of the EEOC) that it responded to you. Will they have? Probably not. Often a boss responds with comments like “I’m not a babysitter” or “boys will be boys” or “I want everyone here to act like adults.” They think that such a cursory response is enough, but it’s not. Their lack of responsiveness to good faith employee concerns is a big cause of employee lawsuits, and a big reason why employees win those suits later on down the road.

I'm pretty sure you can substitute manager and co-worker. As long as you prove the company has been negligent in this matter.

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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I don't think you're getting it. There is no law that lets you sue a company for having an asshole employee. Harassment has to be because of some protected characteristic. This person is an asshole towards everyone, not just women or black people or whatever.

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Halloweve posted:

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[quote=Elocism][quote=Halloweve]osmethne..never even heard of that word before..I will look it up .

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Halloweve posted:

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I don't want to sue them, I want them to take proper action. I don't want her fired..I want her put in her place.

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Lyken-P posted:

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Not true at all, you can't be an ass to people, give the excuse of "that's just me" or "I just have a temper" to keep getting away with being an ass.

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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Uh sure you can. There's no law against being an asshole and no law against companies employing assholes. The company can only get into trouble if it or its employees are discriminating against people based on some protected characteristic. Just being a mean employee or employing a mean employee is not against the law.

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Seething199 posted:

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as a manager who has had to sit through mind-numbing harassment training, i can tell you that any behavior that makes an employee uncomfortable doing their job can be considered harassment.

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Halloweve posted:

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Well..dang if that's the law. She is a jerk everyday..but this is the first time she went on a full on swearing..and I do mean every name in the book at me. Over nothing.

What if they transfer me to another dept? Just to make her happy now? I would be the one being punished.

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Sansfear posted:

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They are talking about EOE.

It is very possible that your employee handbook has something that would address this type of behavior.

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Seething199 posted:

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as others have said, take it to HR and say the word harassment. they'll jump right into action. if they don't, everyone in your office can file a lawsuit.

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Seething199 posted:

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she doesn't have the right to create a hostile work environment that makes everyone else uncomfortable doing their jobs.

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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Seething199 posted:

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she doesn't have the right to create a hostile work environment that makes everyone else uncomfortable doing their jobs.

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It's not really about rights. It's about whether the company cares enough to do something.

I would suggest that if you do decide to escalate the matter you should do it as a group. Get a bunch of other people to sign on to the statement with you. You don't want things to devolve into a you vs her kinda situation. If you can get even 2-3 other people to sign on to your complaint it will make it seem very different.

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Jorrdan posted:

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I am a manager and have dealt with this type of situation before. Here are the facts:

1. What are you describing is a hostile work environment. Has zero to do with gender, managers deal with it in the same manner if one presents itself or if another employee complains about it such as you have. That is, you tell the offending person to stop the behavior. Cursing, yelling, screaming, directed at another person it not acceptable behavior regardless of gender. It is a manager's job to stop this behavior regardless of whether or not you have filed a complaint. Quite frankly, the manager of this person should have already stopped it.

2. If your manager refuses to deal with this person (or if this person reports to a manager other than your own and your manager refuses to speak to THAT manager)..you may tell your manager that you will now go to HR to deal with this issue though you are not required to and may go on your own. As mentioned, it is against the law for your company to retaliate for that type of complaint.

3. Do NOT begin acting this way yourself or "give it right back to her" or you are now contributing to a hostile work environment yourself. In short, you are now breaking the law yourself.

Edit: Regarding the statement, "It's not about rights, it's about if they care to do something", if she goes to HR, they have no choice but to do something unless they decide to violate the law.

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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Jorrdan posted:

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I am a manager and have dealt with this type of situation before. Here are the facts:

1. What are you describing is a hostile work environment. Has zero to do with gender, managers deal with it in the same manner if one presents itself or if another employee complains about it such as you have. That is, you tell the offending person to stop the behavior. Cursing, yelling, screaming, directed at another person it not acceptable behavior regardless of gender. It is a manager's job to stop this behavior regardless of whether or not you have filed a complaint. Quite frankly, the manager of this person should have already stopped it.

2. If your manager refuses to deal with this person (or if this person reports to a manager other than your own and your manager refuses to speak to THAT manager)..you may tell your manager that you will now go to HR to deal with this issue though you are not required to and may go on your own. As mentioned, it is against the law for your company to retaliate for that type of complaint.

3. Do NOT begin acting this way yourself or "give it right back to her" or you are now contributing to a hostile work environment yourself. In short, you are now breaking the law yourself.

Edit: Regarding the statement, "It's not about rights, it's about if they care to do something", if she goes to HR, they have no choice but to do something unless they decide to violate the law.

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This is unfortunately another confused manager. This is not how the law actually works.

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Your own link posted:

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The first place to look in determining the scope of harassment law, of course, is the legal definition of "harassment." Speech can be punished as workplace harassment if it's

(1) "severe or pervasive" enough to

(2) create a "hostile or abusive work environment"

(3) based on race, religion, sex, national origin, 1 age, disability (including obesity), 2 military membership or veteran status, 3 or, in some jurisdictions, sexual orientation, marital status, 4 transsexualism or cross-dressing, 5 political affiliation, 6 criminal record, 7 prior psychiatric treatment, 8 occupation, 9 citizenship status, 10 personal appearance, 11 "matriculation," 12 tobacco use outside work, 13 Appalachian origin, 14 receipt of public assistance, 15 or dishonorable discharge from the military 16

(4)for the plaintiff and for a reasonable person.

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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I didn't say she did. I said it would be a good idea from a strategic point of view, not a legal one.

The law has nothing to do with the situation either way. What she's describing doesn't violate any laws.

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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Your own link posted:

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The first place to look in determining the scope of harassment law, of course, is the legal definition of "harassment." Speech can be punished as workplace harassment if it's

(1) "severe or pervasive" enough to

(2) create a "hostile or abusive work environment"

(3) based on race, religion, sex, national origin, 1 age, disability (including obesity), 2 military membership or veteran status, 3 or, in some jurisdictions, sexual orientation, marital status, 4 transsexualism or cross-dressing, 5 political affiliation, 6 criminal record, 7 prior psychiatric treatment, 8 occupation, 9 citizenship status, 10 personal appearance, 11 "matriculation," 12 tobacco use outside work, 13 Appalachian origin, 14 receipt of public assistance, 15 or dishonorable discharge from the military 16

(4)for the plaintiff and for a reasonable person.

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Jorrdan posted:

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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I didn't say she did. I said it would be a good idea from a strategic point of view, not a legal one.

The law has nothing to do with the situation either way. What she's describing doesn't violate any laws.

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If an employee feels threatened or intimidated to the point he/she cannot perform it constitutes a hostile work environment.

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ZigmundZag posted:

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You guys are trying to argue employment law with a lawyer who works for the federal government.

Having an HR background myself, I can tell you that Yuki is correct, which is why I stated not to get too hung up on labeling the action as harassment. If you get a crappy HR manager they won't even bother to investigate it because nothing happening is actually covered by Title VII and the employee in question wields no authority over her peers. They'll open and close the case before you've even sat down.

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Jorrdan posted:

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And as a manager, if I tell my employees, if you feel like you need to go to HR, "wait until you have numbers and go strategically as a group instead of voicing your individual concern when you have one"...let me just say, I'm a horrific manager. I hope you never become one if that's your advice.

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Jorrdan posted:

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ZigmundZag posted:

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You guys are trying to argue employment law with a lawyer who works for the federal government.

Having an HR background myself, I can tell you that Yuki is correct, which is why I stated not to get too hung up on labeling the action as harassment. If you get a crappy HR manager they won't even bother to investigate it because nothing happening is actually covered by Title VII and the employee in question wields no authority over her peers. They'll open and close the case before you've even sat down.

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There is also a difference (sometimes subtle) between harassment and hostile work environment. There is zero chance that a person can walk around cursing at someone, using intimidation, etc. and not be asked to stop by any HR department (or manager) worth his/her salt.

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Jorrdan posted:

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There is zero chance that a person can walk around cursing at someone, using intimidation, etc. and not be asked to stop by any HR department (or manager) worth his/her salt.

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Jorrdan posted:

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There is also a difference (sometimes subtle) between harassment and hostile work environment. There is zero chance that a person can walk around cursing at someone, using intimidation, etc. and not be asked to stop by any HR department (or manager) worth his/her salt.

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Sansfear posted:

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It is sad, but the idea of listening to the actual profanity being used is actually a good one. If they accidentally use a disparaging term for a protected class you instantly have a case.

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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.

If you complain that your boss is being mean to you your boss can fire you for it. The law will not protect you.

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ZigmundZag posted:

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Jorrdan posted:

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And as a manager, if I tell my employees, if you feel like you need to go to HR, "wait until you have numbers and go strategically as a group instead of voicing your individual concern when you have one"...let me just say, I'm a horrific manager. I hope you never become one if that's your advice.

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Obviously the manager in this situation has already failed. Projecting an Outposter into that role doesn't even make any sense.

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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@demonic

Here in the United States we don't have a system where the employer has to give a good reason for firing someone. We have a system where the employer can fire someone for no reason, but not for any reason.

You cannot fire someone for being black or a woman or for reporting discrimination against asian people or (in many cases) for reporting safety problems at work or that sort of thing or even for no reason at all.

You can generally fire someone for almost any other reason. You can fire someone because you don't like the color of their tie or the sound of their voice or because they complain you are being mean to them (not based on some protected category). None of those are protected.

There are exceptions to this general rule. Employees with employment contracts can only be fired for good cause, for example. Most employees don't have an employment contract, though.

IIRC there is also one state somewhere that isn't at will by default. Somewhere in the midwest.

Many European countries are different and you have to have a good reason for firing any employee
at any time.

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reesescups posted:

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You guys... making this way way way too complicated...


Roll of duct tape
Ball gag
Strap on dildo

Problem solved and you might just have a new best friend after ward...

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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Well the reason for having a good documented reason is to avoid lawsuits based on some sort of discrimination.

If you fire a woman and she sues you and says you fired her because she's a woman saying "no, I didn't fire her for being a woman, I fired her because I felt angry that day and wanted to take it out on someone" is not very convincing or likely to help your case. Even if strictly speaking you CAN fire people just because you feel like it, it's always better to have a good reason you can bring out in case anyone questions your decision or claims it was based on some impermissible reason like race or sex discrimination.

You also might have employees with employment contracts but I really doubt it because if you did I doubt the company would give you authority to fire in the first place.

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Sansfear posted:

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The reason the behavior continues is because they overlook it.

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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uh for what? some of you are sorta funny. you can't sue a company for having an employee who is an asshole.

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Yukishiro1 posted:

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@demonic

Here in the United States we don't have a system where the employer has to give a good reason for firing someone. We have a system where the employer can fire someone for no reason, but not for any reason.

You cannot fire someone for being black or a woman or for reporting discrimination against asian people or (in many cases) for reporting safety problems at work or that sort of thing or even for no reason at all.

You can generally fire someone for almost any other reason. You can fire someone because you don't like the color of their tie or the sound of their voice or because they complain you are being mean to them (not based on some protected catagory). None of those are protected.

There are exceptions to this general rule. Employees with employment contracts can only be fired for good cause, for example. Most employees don't have an employment contract, though.

IIRC there is also one state somewhere that isn't at will by default. Somewhere in the midwest.

Many European countries are different and you have to have a good reason for firing any employee at any time.

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Koneg posted:

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You can sue anyone for anything. Literally.

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Halloweve posted:

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Ok, here is the latest ..I went in today just to talk to the manager.
He said he spoke with her and is taking the issue as a serious matter.
She admitted to the behavior.

He said he has some more to take care of and said we would talk Monday. I told him I was not looking to get her fired..I just want her put in her place, and i want to make sure she doesn't do this to anybody else again. I reminded him that i knew all the inside stuff on the new hire that had quit because of her and how he blew her off.
I also told him I had spoken with my old boss who is a corporate attorney and V.P. of a large corporation. I said he gave me some sage advice...and that I am well aware fo my rights. This seemed to make him sit a little straighter.
I think he may be taking it more serious because I never complain about anything or anybody.

I'm just going to continue on with a smile..say good morning and do my job..the same as i always do.

Thanks guys for all the good insight and information. I appreciate all of it.

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