Ashmaele
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Marine in hot water for badmouthing his commander in chief on Facebook
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http://news.yahoo.com/marines-facebook-page-tests-military-rules-234113159.html
SAN DIEGO (AP) — Marine Sgt. Gary Stein first started a Facebook page called Armed Forces Tea Party Patriots to encourage service members to exercise their free speech rights. Then he declared that he wouldn't follow orders from the commander in chief, President Barack Obama.
While Stein softened his statement to say he wouldn't follow "unlawful orders," military observers say he may have gone too far.
The Marine Corps is now looking into whether he violated the military's rules prohibiting political statements by those in uniform and broke its guidelines on what troops can and cannot say on social media. Stein said his views are constitutionally protected.
While troops have always expressed their views in private, Stein's case highlights the potential for their opinions to go global as tech-savvy service members post personal details, videos and pictures that can hurt the military's image at home and abroad.
The best part:
Stein said he respects the office of the president, but he does not agree with Obama's policies. He said he is within his rights to speak up.
"Just because I'm a Marine doesn't mean I don't have free speech or can't say my personal opinion about the president or other public official just like anybody else," Stein said. "The Constitution trumps everything else."
...except the part where the Constitution indicates that the President is your commander-in-chief?
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Tych2
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Marine in hot water for badmouthing his commander in chief on Facebook
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 I guess I should have read it first!
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Sin_of_Onin
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Marine in hot water for badmouthing his commander in chief on Facebook
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Tych2 posted:
I really hope Obama isn't that thin skinned and nothing happens to this marine.
I don't think the reaction would have much to do with Obama but the military having an established reaction to such a thing.
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Ashmaele
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Marine in hot water for badmouthing his commander in chief on Facebook
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Has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not Obama can "handle" criticism.
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Tych2
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Yeah I edited my answer. I didn't read it at first. Lesson learned.
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Cawlin
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Marine in hot water for badmouthing his commander in chief on Facebook
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Kind of a catch22 based on poor word choice by this guy I think.
Armed services are beholden to the constitution and in light of an UNLAWFUL order, that trumps the C.I.C. as far as I know.
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Ashmaele
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Marine in hot water for badmouthing his commander in chief on Facebook
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Cawlin posted:
Kind of a catch22 based on poor word choice by this guy I think.
Armed services are beholden to the constitution and in light of an UNLAWFUL order, that trumps the C.I.C. as far as I know.
You and I both know this to be true, self evident and (frankly) absurdly obvious. So absurdly obvious, in fact, that there is really no point in someone even saying something like this. It's like you or me saying, "Look, murder is wrong, it's illegal and by god I HEREBY VOW NEVER TO MURDER ANYONE! WHO'S WITH ME?"
And that isn't what the guy was saying initially. He only changed it to "unlawful order" after someone alerted him to the fact that he might get his ass court martialed if he didn't change it.
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Fist_de_Yuma
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Marine in hot water for badmouthing his commander in chief on Facebook
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This was a stupid thing to do. No matter how you feel about the President he is your boss. I hated Carter but never slammed him; even when others were. When people were told to vote with their feet, many did. It took a lot of time and money to recover from him but when serving you have to serve. It is your oath.
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Cawlin
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Marine in hot water for badmouthing his commander in chief on Facebook
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Ashmaele posted:
Cawlin posted:
Kind of a catch22 based on poor word choice by this guy I think.
Armed services are beholden to the constitution and in light of an UNLAWFUL order, that trumps the C.I.C. as far as I know.
You and I both know this to be true, self evident and (frankly) absurdly obvious. So absurdly obvious, in fact, that there is really no point in someone even saying something like this. It's like you or me saying, "Look, murder is wrong, it's illegal and by god I HEREBY VOW NEVER TO MURDER ANYONE! WHO'S WITH ME?"
And that isn't what the guy was saying initially. He only changed it to "unlawful order" after someone alerted him to the fact that he might get his ass court martialed if he didn't change it.
Sooo... your point is what then? Are you saying that you believe his intent was not to mean "unlawful orders" and simply "any orders"?
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ZigmundZag
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Of course he doesn't have to take an unlawful order from anyone in his chain of command. That's well-established military doctrine. But that's not what he said at first, either. Openly disrespecting the chain of command is not free speech - this is also well-established military doctrine.
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Voodoo-Dahl
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Marine in hot water for badmouthing his commander in chief on Facebook
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Cawlin posted:
Sooo... your point is what then? Are you saying that you believe his intent was not to mean "unlawful orders" and simply "any orders"?
I don't know if this is possible for you but, stop being a moron.
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Ashmaele
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Marine in hot water for badmouthing his commander in chief on Facebook
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Cawlin posted:
Sooo... your point is what then? Are you saying that you believe his intent was not to mean "unlawful orders" and simply "any orders"?
Um did you read the article? Hell don't even bother with the article just read the first few sentences I quoted in the OP.
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imaloon1
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Probably.
Which could be construed as an attempt at a coup and subject him to all manner of crap. Terrorism charges etc...
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Cawlin
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You guys are hilarious. It's like anytime someone makes an anti Obama remark, they are sticking their finger right in your own ass.
Yeah the dude posted something that was stupid and that is a no-no in the military. He later changed it. You guys are assuming motive and not stupidity is the reason for his action. Meanwhile, I suggest that you probably don't know enough to ascertain whether this was the guy's intention to subvert his chain of command or if this was as a result of his ignorance, and I'm the moron here... 
Sure, the guy is probably going to be sanctioned, and rightfully so, big deal. He posted something stupid and verboten, whether he meant to or not, his mistake.
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The guy sounds like a moronic douchebag but I don't think anything should happen to him.
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Cawlin
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Marine in hot water for badmouthing his commander in chief on Facebook
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Yukishiro1 posted:
The guy sounds like a moronic douchebag but I don't think anything should happen to him.
Oh no Yuki! The guy's clearly a terrorist despot bent on the overthrow of the US government, working from within our own military! STRING HIM UP!!!!
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Moe_Nox
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Marine in hot water for badmouthing his commander in chief on Facebook
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Under the current wording what he did isn't allowed. However I disagree with it. Short of actually threatening anyone or hostile actions, soldiers should be allowed reasonable freedom of speech as well. I mean its Facebook. He should be able to say what he wants, as long as he respects all superiors in person at all times.
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Yukishiro1
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Punish him when he actually fails to obey an order. He's obviously just a moronic guy who likes to talk tough but I'm sure he'd roll over completely when push comes to shove because people like that always do.
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Ashmaele
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Marine in hot water for badmouthing his commander in chief on Facebook
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Cawlin posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
The guy sounds like a moronic douchebag but I don't think anything should happen to him.
Oh no Yuki! The guy's clearly a terrorist despot bent on the overthrow of the US government, working from within our own military! STRING HIM UP!!!!
Yes that is EXACTLY what everyone is saying should happen
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Cawlin
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Marine in hot water for badmouthing his commander in chief on Facebook
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Moe_Nox posted:
Under the current wording what he did isn't allowed. However I disagree with it. Short of actually threatening anyone or hostile actions, soldiers should be allowed reasonable freedom of speech as well. I mean its Facebook. He should be able to say what he wants, as long as he respects all superiors in person at all times.
That's a little bit more of a gray area concept imo.
Sedition includes written propaganda. I think it's necessary for the military to keep a lid on it. It's one of the sacrifices a soldier makes.
However, I don't think this guy intended to foment insurrection or anything, I just think he was stupid.
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ZigmundZag
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Marine in hot water for badmouthing his commander in chief on Facebook
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Cawlin posted:
You guys are hilarious. It's like anytime someone makes an anti Obama remark, they are sticking their finger right in your own ass.
So is Fist one of "you guys" now too?
You should probably look at who is actually making an argument and what their point is before you treat it as a liberal / conservative issue.
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Eager_Igraine
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I'm thinking he's violated a few rules and will be disciplined.
He also seems like a douche. A Marine NCO is not where I would expect this level of public stupid to crop up, but it takes all kinds I guess.
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Ashmaele
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Eager_Igraine posted:
I'm thinking he's violated a few rules and will be disciplined.
He also seems like a douche. A Marine NCO is not where I would expect this level of public stupid to crop up, but it takes all kinds I guess.
I agree with all of this.
That said...does he have an underlying point? Does his constitutionally guaranteed right to free speech extend this far? And should it? Good questions IMO whether or not this guy is an idiot.
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Cawlin
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Marine in hot water for badmouthing his commander in chief on Facebook
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ZigmundZag posted:
Cawlin posted:
You guys are hilarious. It's like anytime someone makes an anti Obama remark, they are sticking their finger right in your own ass.
So is Fist one of "you guys" now too?
You should probably look at who is actually making an argument and what their point is before you treat it as a liberal / conservative issue.
It gets better and better.
You idiots immediately took this as a lib/conservative issue and jumped on it like the guy was trying to raise his own counter-US army and jumped on me like I was defending him. I think you're wearing out the whole "NO U!" thing dude.
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Ashmaele
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I think it would be hilarious if his platoon sergeant shot up the guy's laptop with his pistol and then posted it on youtube.
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Cawlin
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Marine in hot water for badmouthing his commander in chief on Facebook
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Ashmaele posted:
I think it would be hilarious if his platoon sergeant shot up the guy's laptop with his pistol and then posted it on youtube.
LOL but it would be even MORE unprofessional than the original misguided FB post.
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In his rank of NCO-active, it is unforgivable. His very rank is dependent on the Commander-in-Chief, and as a NCO, a tier of authority, he should know better.
At the very least his miltiary career, seems over. Chain of command wont put up with that, and as it should.
BTW there are always appropriate channels to speak one's displeasure, and not get in reasonable trouble.
Inspector General.
Speaking out publically about one's chain of command is bad form. Doesn't matter whio is president. This isn't a conscription army.
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Ptilk
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In the military you swear to uphold your oath.
In that oath there is a little section that goes, "I will obey the orders of the President of the United States".
This tard just said he wont do that.
He is in violation of his enlistment oath, thus he is subject to disciplinary action, up to and including discharge from the service.
In reality, it's very doubtful that this will happen. There are always idiots spouting off about stupid crap in the military, and most of the time, they are just told to shut it and everyone goes on.
This guys weaselly rewording of his statement to include "unlawful" doesn't change a thing. Even if you do decide you are not going to follow an order because it is "unlawful" in your opinion....you are still subject to the same disciplinary actions, even if it turns out the order was "unlawful".
You are always free to act upon your conscience in the military, but that doesn't mean you will escape paying a price for doing so. That's part of being in the service. They don't take your freedom at the door when you join, they just make the cost of that freedom a bit higher.
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Altra_Shadowstalker
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If you don't know how to filter who sees your Facebook posts by now, you probably shouldn't be leading men into battle anyway.
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Z-Elder
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The guy is a typical RWN and should be thrown out of the military since as an NCO he isn't going to be promoted ever again anyway.
"Stein was first cautioned by his superiors at Camp Pendleton, north of San Diego, in 2010 after he launched his Facebook page, criticizing Obama's health care overhaul. Stein volunteered to take down the page while he reviewed the rules at the request of his superiors.
He said he determined he was not in violation and relaunched the page under the shortened account name Armed Forces Tea Party. Last week, he said his superiors told him he couldn't use social media sites on government computers after he posted the message stating he would not follow unlawful orders of the president.
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Ashmaele
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Marine in hot water for badmouthing his commander in chief on Facebook
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Altra_Shadowstalker posted:
If you don't know how to filter who sees your Facebook posts by now, you probably shouldn't be leading men into battle anyway.
I think the whole point in creating a FB page for "TEA BAGGERS FOR MILITARY AWESOMENESS AND FREE SPEECH AND FOCK OBAMA AMIRITE?" was to get people to see what was posted, not hide it. It sounds like he's on some kind of crusade.
I fully expect him to be running for congress as Joe the Ex-Marine in 2014 (as a Republican of course because the Tea Party has nothing to do with the GOP). Either that or he'll be caught driving a van packed full of fertilizer headed toward Annapolis.
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Mastara
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It happens all the time. The only reason its a big deal is because its facebook and it speaks of Obama. When Bush was in, this crap never got attention.
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Ashmaele
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For reference:
Oath of Enlistment posted:
I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.
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Ashmaele
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Marine in hot water for badmouthing his commander in chief on Facebook
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Mastara posted:
When Bush was in, this crap never got attention.
Like when for example?
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Mastara
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I'm a walking example. I was in under President Bush. All of us talked trash about what he was doing, but never once got in trouble for doing it. Of course we liked it that he was for the military and gave us raises and what not but we didnt like his policies. The whole Iraq war and Oil and all that mess. But when it comes down to it our personal feelings never stopped us from following orders. We did what we were told despite our opinions. We could voice our opinions just not when the brass was around.
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Altra_Shadowstalker
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Subject:
Marine in hot water for badmouthing his commander in chief on Facebook
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Ashmaele posted:
Altra_Shadowstalker posted:
If you don't know how to filter who sees your Facebook posts by now, you probably shouldn't be leading men into battle anyway.
I think the whole point in creating a FB page for "TEA BAGGERS FOR MILITARY AWESOMENESS AND FREE SPEECH AND FOCK OBAMA AMIRITE?" was to get people to see what was posted, not hide it. It sounds like he's on some kind of crusade.
I fully expect him to be running for congress as Joe the Ex-Marine in 2014 (as a Republican of course because the Tea Party has nothing to do with the GOP). Either that or he'll be caught driving a van packed full of fertilizer headed toward Annapolis.
Oh , my fault. Thought it was his personal page. Yeah, court marshal him .
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Altra_Shadowstalker
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Subject:
Marine in hot water for badmouthing his commander in chief on Facebook
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Oh , and I distinctly remember stuff like this happening under Bush and getting the same response.
-----signature-----
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I don't typo often, but when I do, I blame Swype.
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Ashmaele
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Subject:
Marine in hot water for badmouthing his commander in chief on Facebook
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Mastara posted:
I'm a walking example. I was in under President Bush. All of us talked trash about what he was doing, but never once got in trouble for doing it. Of course we liked it that he was for the military and gave us raises and what not but we didnt like his policies. The whole Iraq war and Oil and all that mess. But when it comes down to it our personal feelings never stopped us from following orders. We did what we were told despite our opinions. We could voice our opinions just not when the brass was around.
So you're angry that you never got in trouble for it? Or angry that the media ignored you?
I have a feeling that if FB had been around when you and I were in (and it sounds like we served at about the same time) things would have been different.
ETA: Oh wait you're talking about GWB nm
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Yukishiro1
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Marine in hot water for badmouthing his commander in chief on Facebook
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He swore an oath to obey orders, not to say he would obey orders.
Talk is talk. I don't think he's in violation of any oath just by SAYING he isn't gonna follow orders.
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Ptilk
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Marine in hot water for badmouthing his commander in chief on Facebook
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As I said earlier in this thread, most of the time people are just told to shut up and everyone goes on.
People in the military have been bitching about their commanding officers, the government in general, and the President since George Washington was in office. Running your mouth almost never gets you more than a "shut up", occasionally, if you have bad timing or are especially loud about it, it gets you an official "shut up".
I served under 4 different Presidents. I heard a lot of bitching about all of them. Sometimes I heard me bitching about them. I was never stupid enough to put it on paper and try to convert people to my way of thinking however...not until I retired that is. Bitching by itself isn't a big deal. It's part of the life.
Putting your bitching on paper however and distributing it....that gets you a very special "we will shut you up". The interweb just added a new form of distribution. Same penalty applies. You can bitch almost as much as you want, but once you start proselytizing that bitching....you get smacked down.
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ZigmundZag
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Subject:
Marine in hot water for badmouthing his commander in chief on Facebook
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Cawlin posted:
It gets better and better.
You idiots immediately took this as a lib/conservative issue and jumped on it like the guy was trying to raise his own counter-US army and jumped on me like I was defending him. I think you're wearing out the whole "NO U!" thing dude.
I hate to break it to you, chief, but you were the one who tried to make this about Obama and not the UCMJ. The standard applies to the chain of command, not the individual. I tried to spare you a little embarrassment there by pointing out that even Fist couldn't bring himself to defend this, but you just kept on digging.
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Z-Elder
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Marine in hot water for badmouthing his commander in chief on Facebook
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Mastara posted:
It happens all the time. The only reason its a big deal is because its facebook and it speaks of Obama. When Bush was in, this crap never got attention.
It is more than that. As I posted above they have been dealing with this tard since 2010. The NCO is now trying to walk a line and not violate the UCMJ and/or the Hatch act with his poltical crap. He can legally have his opinions and even write about them but he has shown that he keeps crossing the line. His unit should not have to put up with having to babysit him nor teach him how to be legal.
This also isn't just a guy being stupid as Cawlin is trying to make it into since it has gone on for almost 2 years. A Marine NCO that is a disruption for 2 years? F him and his games.
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__Bonk__
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Marine in hot water for badmouthing his commander in chief on Facebook
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I hear now that some jobs want to look at your facebook page before they will offer you a job. Thats outrageous. Still dont post anything negative about work on Facebook or other social media
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GrilledCheez
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Marine in hot water for badmouthing his commander in chief on Facebook
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hahah marines r dum.
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Eager_Igraine
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Subject:
Marine in hot water for badmouthing his commander in chief on Facebook
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Ashmaele posted:
Eager_Igraine posted:
I'm thinking he's violated a few rules and will be disciplined.
He also seems like a douche. A Marine NCO is not where I would expect this level of public stupid to crop up, but it takes all kinds I guess.
I agree with all of this.
That said...does he have an underlying point? Does his constitutionally guaranteed right to free speech extend this far? And should it? Good questions IMO whether or not this guy is an idiot.
Sorry, slow response.
It seems like this guy is an idiot making trouble, but time will tell.
I don't think his underlying point is lacking largely because he appears to be politicking while in uniform and intentionally so, and while I haven't researched the relevant ucmj material, I'm pretty sure his actions are not allowed, even skipping the stupidity of not following the CinC's orders. I talked to my buddy the Marine NCO and his response was 'wtf, that tard needs some "counseling", you can't do that'.
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__Bonk__
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Marine in hot water for badmouthing his commander in chief on Facebook
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He should have the right to say he wouldnt obey an order, free speech. He should only be disciplined if he doesnt obey a lawful order. Until then he should be free to say his mind
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sweeny_comodore
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Marine in hot water for badmouthing his commander in chief on Facebook
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face book?
seriously?
are we in middle school and someone just badmouthed the principal on the playground?
gtfo
whoever reads face book or even gives a half a shit about whats posted there is a tard.
let him write whatever he wants. who effing cares?
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ineenia
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Marine in hot water for badmouthing his commander in chief on Facebook
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He should be disciplined and be dishonorably discharged.IMO it would be unthinkable to leave him in an organization where lives depend on him following orders when it is clear he is looking for a situation where he'll feel justified in disobeying orders.It would be beyond irresponsible to leave him in and wait and see what happens.
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sweeny_comodore
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Marine in hot water for badmouthing his commander in chief on Facebook
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ineenia posted:
He should be disciplined and be dishonorably discharged.IMO it would be unthinkable to leave him in an organization where lives depend on him following orders when it is clear he is looking for a situation where he'll feel justified in disobeying orders.It would be beyond irresponsible to leave him in and wait and see what happens.
lives depend more on disobeying orders than on following orders.
lives depend on teamwork and trust in your fellows, not the orders to run into that machine gun.
stop talking and youll sound less retarded
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Jesus? No, but there is indeed a god shaped hole in the heart of man, why is yours so empty? -- snarf igraine the original monotheism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phallus
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Friarspam
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Marine in hot water for badmouthing his commander in chief on Facebook
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He's guilty of insubordination if he posted he wouldn't "follow orders" from the President. If he said later "unlawful orders" then he's just an idiot. Nobody is supposed to follow unlawful orders.
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ineenia
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Marine in hot water for badmouthing his commander in chief on Facebook
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sweeny_comodore posted:
ineenia posted:
He should be disciplined and be dishonorably discharged.IMO it would be unthinkable to leave him in an organization where lives depend on him following orders when it is clear he is looking for a situation where he'll feel justified in disobeying orders.It would be beyond irresponsible to leave him in and wait and see what happens.
lives depend more on disobeying orders than on following orders.
lives depend on teamwork and trust in your fellows, not the orders to run into that machine gun.
stop talking and youll sound less retarded
So let me get this strait...You believe insubordination should be encouraged in our military in case someone gives a bad order ?? Each soldier should run around acting in his own best interest yea that would work. 
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__Bonk__
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Marine in hot water for badmouthing his commander in chief on Facebook
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The real story is how what you say in your personal life on your own social media is now being looked at and affects your job and other things. Good bye free speech. Hello police state
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Taliesihne
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Marine in hot water for badmouthing his commander in chief on Facebook
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There is a ton of precedent to support the possibility of charges.
You can't undermine the chain of command in public. PERIOD.
The Supreme Court has consistently upheld this over the years.
It's not new. And it's taught to the military.
If he feels that strongly about the leadership, he is welcome to quit and carry on his fight as a civilian.
PS - If you'd like an interesting read on the law involved:
http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/aureview/1980/may-jun/moran.html
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