Snarf_Igraine
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European Car of the Year!
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Goes to the Chevy Volt! 
http://bottomline.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/06/10591706-chevy-volt-named-european-car-of-the-year
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paulg_68
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Euros gave Obama the Nobel Peace Prize based on his first two weeks in office.
I'm not sure we really have to take their judgment seriously.
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Sin_of_Onin
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They totally should have gave it to some sedan that was slightly different then all other sedans!
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Snarf_Igraine
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The Volt also won the North American car of the year before this. I just found it shocking that the Europeans loved an American car over Mercedes, VW, etc... 
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Eager_Igraine
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Car of the Year may not mean "Best Selling" Car of the Year.
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Snarf_Igraine
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Sales has nothing to do with it, they praised the innovation of the range extending mode. I still think the Volt is overrated.
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theredkay1
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europe posted:
the Americans made the car of the year!
RWN's posted:
we are required to hate America right now. We are just following orders.  We might stop later this winter....we will know more when we are told what to do.
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DemonicXH
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Subject:
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theredkay1 posted:
europe posted:
the Americans made the car of the year!
RWN's posted:
we are required to hate America right now. We are just following orders. We might stop later this winter....we will know more when we are told what to do.
Why you gotta get all political?
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Rosaria
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I see theredkay is still having imaginary conversations with himself.
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reesescups
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Dude - they're round!!!
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Manegarm
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Why are you guys not happy about this? 
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Rosaria
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I don't really care one way or the other.
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Sin_of_Onin
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Manegarm posted:
Why are you guys not happy about this?
RWNs are against two things, suggestions we save oil and the government bailout of GM. Basically this Volt is a perfect combo from their persepctive because they think it demonstrates how pointless it is to be efficient and how awful this product is demonstrates some failure by the government.
IT demonstrates their bias, ideology, ignorance, and willingness to hate on America and private industry when it suits them.
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paulg_68
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Manegarm posted:
Why are you guys not happy about this?
Same reason we weren't happy about Obama winning the Nobel Peace Prize based on his first two weeks in office.
It would be awesome if it was earned but clearly it wasn't. It was just libtards giving a libtard award for libtardiness.
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Manegarm
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
Manegarm posted:
Why are you guys not happy about this?
RWNs are against two things, suggestions we save oil and the government bailout of GM. Basically this Volt is a perfect combo from their persepctive because they think it demonstrates how pointless it is to be efficient and how awful this product is demonstrates some failure by the government.
IT demonstrates their bias, ideology, ignorance, and willingness to hate on America and private industry when it suits them.
I don't really see what you..
paulg_68 posted:
Same reason we weren't happy about Obama winning the Nobel Peace Prize based on his first two weeks in office.
It would be awesome if it was earned but clearly it wasn't. It was just libtards giving a libtard award for libtardiness.
Oh wait Sin now it's perfectly clear..
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paulg_68
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The Volt runs off of coal instead of oil.
Yay.
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Elocism
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past winners:
2000 Toyota Yaris
2001 Alfa Romeo
2002 Peugeot
2003 Renault Mégane
2004 Fiat Panda
2005 Toyota Prius
2006 Renault Clio
2007 Ford S-Max
2008 Fiat 500
2009 Opel/Vauxhall Insignia
2010 Volkswagen Polo
2011 Nissan Leaf
willing to bet none of you own or know anyone that owns any of those, except maybe a Prius
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Rosaria
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
Manegarm posted:
Why are you guys not happy about this?
RWNs are against two things, suggestions we save oil and the government bailout of GM. Basically this Volt is a perfect combo from their persepctive because they think it demonstrates how pointless it is to be efficient and how awful this product is demonstrates some failure by the government.
IT demonstrates their bias, ideology, ignorance, and willingness to hate on America and private industry when it suits them.
Not enough angst. Put some spit on it.
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Sin_of_Onin
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Rosa you are so blinded by the stupidity of RWNs that I see little point in even trying to get you to see what is right in front of your face.
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Rosaria
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Better, but still needs work.
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paulg_68
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The Prius is the best selling car in California. Clearly Americans are willing to buy an energy efficient car if it's good and it's priced right. The Volt is neither.
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theredkay1
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paulg_68 posted:
The Prius is the best selling car in California. Clearly Americans are willing to buy an energy efficient car if it's good and it's priced right. The Volt is neither.
The prius sold very poorly for several years until it took off. I do wonder if mid 2000's paul was on an ideological crusade against the poorly selling prius...or if the volt is unique for some unidentifiable reason.
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theredkay1
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DemonicXH posted:
Why you gotta get all political?
I made the volt political? 
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paulg_68
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I have always been pro hybrid. I'm on my 2nd Ford Escape hybrid right now.
The Volt is nothing but a waste of taxpayer dollars.
Our power grid is already overtaxed. Thank gawd no one is buying the Volt or we'd really be in trouble.
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Sin_of_Onin
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Not all attempts to advance technology work out and the Volt may fail. The Prius may have failed too but Toyota made it work. The idea of cheering against the Volt is ridiculous. The ability of RWNs to make the Volt a political argument is pathetic but hilarious.
They(as well as their clueless cheerleaders) are also unlikely to ever realize what fools they are.
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paulg_68
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Calling a spade a spade isn't cheering.
The Volt is a turd. I'm not rooting for it to be a turd. I'm merely not in denial like you are.
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Manegarm
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Your argument is getting clearer by the minute Sin. 
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the_great_ontex
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I don't hate on the Volt either. When you design something that runs on a limited amount of resources (gas) the first utmost priority for any responsible person is to make sure it is using those limited resources in the most efficient way it possibly can.
To do not that is a crime against the future
The human species is bleeding this planet dry of resources. We're growing exponentially and our waste is growing even faster
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Sin_of_Onin
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Howard Hughes had some failures too. I am more concerned with the lack of investment and innovation at GM than the spirit that pushed them to develop the Volt.
BTW it was pretty clear that the Volt project was floundering years before the bailout.
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Rosaria
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My next new car purchase which will be later this year is down between two styles offered by BMW. It will be cheaper than a Volt. I could not care less what happens one way or the other to the Volt. Apparently some of you feel very strongly about it and are looking forward to buying one. Let us know how they work out for you.
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Elocism
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why do they need to innovate? if they sell a crappy product, us taxpayers just make up the difference
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the_great_ontex
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America as a whole is a country of narcissistic, greedy assholes. It's sad how the psychological nature of society has been so twisted to glam and stupid opinions rather than logical sense
I'd rather us front the bill to an American auto company than throw away billions of dollars and thousands of lives for nonsense wars. I don't like either for sure, but it doesn't take a genius to know what one is the lesser evil
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Voodoo-Dahl
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The Volt is priced higher because it is a much nicer car than other hybrids. Chevy's vision was to create a hybrid that doesn't skimp on all the amenities people have come accustomed to in straight gasoline cars.
The Volt is leading edge hybrid technology and people are shitting on it for partisan reasons. It's Ridiculous.
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Sin_of_Onin
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Elocism posted:
why do they need to innovate? if they sell a crappy product, us taxpayers just make up the difference
Which really was the government stopping the owners of GM to screw over labor.
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Elocism
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clearly no company with employees should ever fail
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Sin_of_Onin
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Elocism posted:
clearly no company with employees should ever fail
It was actually the pensions that were the problem. Basically it would have meant massive economic ruin for middle class people.
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Rosaria
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Voodoo-Dahl posted:
The Volt is priced higher because it is a much nicer car than other hybrids. Chevy's vision was to create a hybrid that doesn't skimp on all the amenities people have come accustomed to in straight gasoline cars.
The Volt is leading edge hybrid technology and people are shitting on it for partisan reasons. It's Ridiculous.
Not really. The interior is very feels very small although its very well appointed; other cars 15K cheaper can also boast that. The shape of the battery and the room it takes in the passenger seat also gives it a claustrophobic effect. I drove one. Its all yours.
PS As far as I know, the Volt is selling between 35,000$ and 40,000$. I can spend my purchasing dollars much better.
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Elocism
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
Elocism posted:
clearly no company with employees should ever fail
It was actually the pensions that were the problem. Basically it would have meant massive economic ruin for middle class people.
life is tough
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Sin_of_Onin
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-----signature-----
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Elocism
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so to get government money, you just need to promise your employees a pension, and then fail as a business and be unable to fund it?
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Elocism
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if my company folds and i cannot cash in on my equity plan, will the government set up my retirement?
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Elocism
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why didnt the government give Enron employees a nice pension?
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Elocism
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what aboot Ford employees? they surely would have cashed in on the increased market share by having the superior product
maybe some of the old GM employees, with years of experience, could have gotten jobs there. Ford probably would have been hiring
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Elocism
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European Car of the Year!
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or heaven forbid a new company spring up from the ashes
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DemonicXH
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European Car of the Year!
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
Elocism posted:
clearly no company with employees should ever fail
It was actually the pensions that were the problem. Basically it would have meant massive economic ruin for middle class people.
So then the unions are the problem?
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Taliesihne
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The problem with your thought process, Elo, is that it exists in a vacuum.
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Sin_of_Onin
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DemonicXH posted:
So then the unions are the problem?
No but pensions are.
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theredkay1
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Elocism posted:
what aboot Ford employees? they surely would have cashed in on the increased market share by having the superior product
maybe some of the old GM employees, with years of experience, could have gotten jobs there. Ford probably would have been hiring
Ford supported the government financing. Without it Ford would have had to shut down for a good long while. Sometimes it doesnt hurt to pay attention. 
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Sin_of_Onin
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Elo, I agree that the US shuold not make a habit of doing that. That is why we have to make sure we are not put in that situation again.
The fact that it was done was an example of having two horrible choices. To act like either option is something to cheer is stupid.
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reesescups
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paulg_68 posted:
Manegarm posted:
Why are you guys not happy about this?
Same reason we weren't happy about Obama winning the Nobel Peace Prize based on his first two weeks in office.
Um - He didn't win the Nobel Peace Prize because of his first two weeks in office...
HTH
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Rosaria
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Elocism posted:
or heaven forbid a new company spring up from the ashes
Google Fisker.
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Elocism
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
Elo, I agree that the US shuold not make a habit of doing that. That is why we have to make sure we are not put in that situation again.
The fact that it was done was an example of having two horrible choices. To act like either option is something to cheer is stupid.
the US has pretty much cemented its policy of 'too big to fail'
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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paulg_68 posted:
Euros gave Obama the Nobel Peace Prize based on his first two weeks in office.
I'm not sure we really have to take their judgment seriously.
/thread
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theredkay1
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Elocism posted:
Sin_of_Onin posted:
Elo, I agree that the US shuold not make a habit of doing that. That is why we have to make sure we are not put in that situation again.
The fact that it was done was an example of having two horrible choices. To act like either option is something to cheer is stupid.
the US has pretty much cemented its policy of 'too big to fail'
What we need is for failed companies to go through bankruptcy. Owners take a bath, creditors must take a hit, executives need to be replaced, employees take a hit, bad product lines revamped or killed off.
Oh wait...all of that happened here. 
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Elocism
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add 'taxpayers' to that list
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reesescups
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Elocism posted:
add 'taxpayers' to that list
You want tax payers killed off?
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Scarne
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Elocism posted:
willing to bet none of you own or know anyone that owns any of those, except maybe a Prius
I know someone with a Yaris.
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Rosaria
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Elocism posted:
add 'taxpayers' to that list
Yup. Most definitely.
PS I was looking at companies that have declared bankruptcy and found one bankruptcy filed for a state route in California.
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__Bonk__
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Good news. Maybe this will help them sell them. Its a great idea and i hope one day automakers make this a reality for average people. I would buy one if I could get a new one for under 20k
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Elocism
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there are a lot of things id buy if they were 50% cheaper...
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theredkay1
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Elocism posted:
add 'taxpayers' to that list
The taxpayer cost of multiple large companies being liquidated and hundreds of thousands losing their job at a time when there was no demand for workers to soak up some of those newly unemployed, would have been staggering and would have continued for many many years. Dwarfing whatever the loss on the auto bailout ends up being.
Choosing to ignore that potential loss doesnt make it go away. Taxpayers made out pretty well on this deal considering the alternative.
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Snarf_Igraine
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I love efficiency, technology, and affordability, I drive a Prius! I would not buy a volt, I would rather have a Ford Focus hybrid that that overpriced and inefficient Volt.
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Elocism
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theredkay1 posted:
Elocism posted:
add 'taxpayers' to that list
The taxpayer cost of multiple large companies being liquidated and hundreds of thousands losing their job at a time when there was no demand for workers to soak up some of those newly unemployed, would have been staggering and would have continued for many many years. Dwarfing whatever the loss on the auto bailout ends up being.
Choosing to ignore that potential loss doesnt make it go away. Taxpayers made out pretty well on this deal considering the alternative.
you have absolutely no idea if that would have been more expensive to the taxpayers
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paulg_68
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The only people buying Volts are people who would rather waste money than admit the Democrats made a mistake. Either that or they're companies buying Volts as fleet vehicles using money they got as corporate welfare from the Democrats.
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reesescups
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Elocism posted:
theredkay1 posted:
Elocism posted:
add 'taxpayers' to that list
The taxpayer cost of multiple large companies being liquidated and hundreds of thousands losing their job at a time when there was no demand for workers to soak up some of those newly unemployed, would have been staggering and would have continued for many many years. Dwarfing whatever the loss on the auto bailout ends up being.
Choosing to ignore that potential loss doesnt make it go away. Taxpayers made out pretty well on this deal considering the alternative.
you have absolutely no idea if that would have been more expensive to the taxpayers
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theredkay1
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Elocism posted:
theredkay1 posted:
Elocism posted:
add 'taxpayers' to that list
The taxpayer cost of multiple large companies being liquidated and hundreds of thousands losing their job at a time when there was no demand for workers to soak up some of those newly unemployed, would have been staggering and would have continued for many many years. Dwarfing whatever the loss on the auto bailout ends up being.
Choosing to ignore that potential loss doesnt make it go away. Taxpayers made out pretty well on this deal considering the alternative.
you have absolutely no idea if that would have been more expensive to the taxpayers
http://www.cargroup.org/pdfs/impact.pdf
This estimate says no bailout would cost taxpayers around $32 billion (decreased taxes and increased unemployment/medicaid payments) in 2009 & 2010. Additional costs would have been added in 2011 and 2012.
Make up numbers yourself if you want...when you start with 500,000 to 1 million taxpayers and start estimating lost tax payments the numbers add up very very very quickly.
ed- this was an unquestionably hard and unpopular decision to make...but it was pretty obviously the right one.
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Elocism
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lets say that nonprofit based in MI had no ulterior motives. lets say it would have been that expensive
i accept the role of the federal government to help those that cannot help themselves. i do not accept the role of the federal government to help companies that are awful
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