As a part of our post mortem series on Cataclysm, we sat down with World of Warcraft Lead Encounter Designer Scott ?Daelo? Mercer to hear his thoughts on Cataclysm dungeons and raids.

Q. What were your main goals going into Cataclysm?

We really wanted to make sure we were creating new challenges, strong mechanics, and cool creatures while staying true to the expansion and the themes we wanted to carry out. The three raid dungeons came out well and we had a lot of fun bringing the story of Nefarian and the Twilight?s Hammer to life. We were also able to add some dynamic mechanics in Throne of the Four Winds, which featured players moving across multiple platforms.

Q. How did this evolve over the various content patches?

Zul?Gurub and Zul?Aman were entertaining raids with diverse mechanics, and they translated well when we converted them into Heroic dungeons for patch 4.1. Interesting mechanics and features that once were restricted to raids are now finding their way into our five-player dungeons.
Adding the Dungeon Journal in patch 4.2 was also a major step forward. We wanted to be able to share more information in the game so that players wouldn?t feel the need to go look everything up on external websites. While those sites are great at what they do, we felt like we needed to try to alleviate the need to go out of the game to find the information players wanted to see.
The addition of Raid Finder in patch 4.3 also opened up more opportunities for players to be able to experience our raid content. The feature has proven to be extremely popular, and not just with people who had given up on raiding. Many players use Raid Finder to gear up their secondary characters, gain Valor for the week, or just because it?s fun.


Q. What do you think worked best?

We?ve been reasonably successful with our tuning across all four raid difficulty modes. There were a few warts here and there, but we delivered on the idea that 10-player and 25-player raids could exist at a similar difficulty. We also had some memorable dungeons and cinematic moments in Cataclysm. I?m particularly fond of the interactive bombing run in Grim Batol involving the red drakes. Players really got a sense of the epic scale of Grim Batol, and how well they performed in the event could make clearing the rest of the dungeon much easier.


With our improved tools and the experience we?ve gained over the years, we?ve become better at finding ways to explain the mechanics of our encounters. Our bosses do a better job of warning players of incoming threats. In Dragon Soul we also began to better inform players of mechanics that caused them to die. Providing a better understanding of the encounters to players is an important goal. We feel that losing to a boss and not understanding why is frustrating, just as beating a boss and not understanding why you won is not as satisfying.


Q. What didn?t work out as planned or expected?

Initially, we started off the Heroic dungeons at too high of a difficulty. The difficulty level rather abruptly changed when compared to the Heroics players experienced at the end of Wrath of the Lich King. This major change caught many players off guard, and frustrated some of them. The difficulty also increased the effective amount of time required to complete a dungeon to a longer experience than we wanted. With the release of patch 4.3 we?re now in a much better place. We?ve always talked about being able to complete a dungeon over lunch, and the Hour of Twilight dungeons get us back to that goal. End Time, Well of Eternity, and Hour of Twilight all provide epic play experiences to our players, but at the real sweet spot of difficulty, complexity, and time commitment.


Q. Was there anything that surprised you about how players reacted to a particular encounter?

Not particularly. Something we?ve learned over the years is to expect the unexpected. The community is very creative and intelligent. The most important thing for us is that players are having fun. They often find interesting ways of approaching things that maybe we didn?t expect, but as long the creative solution is still fun for everyone, we usually don?t have a problem with it.


Q. What have you learned from Cataclysm and what are some of your top goals for Mists of Pandaria?

We learned we could create a crazy encounter like the Spine of Deathwing. It took a lot of hard work from the whole team and it was a difficult design challenge to tackle. How do you orchestrate a fight on the back of a gigantic flying dragon without inducing nausea? How do we make sure you feel like you?re on Deathwing? Delivering that experience was really important and everyone wanted the opportunity to work on it. What was really great was that we launched the story of Cataclysm with the cinematic that showed Deathwing having his elementium plates being put on, then we end the expansion with those very same plates being torn off. It gives some real closure to storyline.

For Mists of Pandaria, we will continue to provide new dungeons and raids while also presenting interesting new types of content in the form of challenge modes and scenarios. Players will also be introduced to new enemies in the Sha, Mogu, and Mantids. Making those creatures come to life will be a lot of fun.


Q. Do you have a favorite dungeon or encounter from Cataclysm?

There are so many. The Conclave of Wind was a great one. Working out interesting mechanics that allowed players to go from platform to platform was a lot of fun and the environment felt really epic. A fight like that was a goal of the encounter team for a very long time.
Blackwing Descent was another favorite and working out the mechanics for the Atramedes fight gave us a lot to think about. How do you create an encounter with a blind dragon that fights? So we gave him sonar and showed the interaction with a sound meter on the player?s UI.

In Bastion of Twilight, we really got to sell the corruption angle on Cho?gall which made for another really interesting fight.


Q. Is there a certain mechanic that you always wanted to do but couldn?t do prior to Cataclysm?

Not really. There are so many cool ideas to work with that I never feel held back. It?s easy to be creatively inspired by the people around you and their energy. It?s never a problem of coming up with ideas. It?s usually deciding which ones we want to go with next, but the possibilities are endless.


Q. Do you have a ?dream? dungeon or encounter that you?d like to create if you had the opportunity?

I?ve never felt that I haven?t been able to do the things I want to do. Everyone on the team is completely dedicated to giving us unlimited opportunities to make epic and awesome experiences. But, if I have to mention something, it would be huge giant death robots. We had Mimiron in Ulduar, but you just can?t have too many death robots.


Q. Thank you for your time, Scott.

You?re welcome.

Spookysheep posted:

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Q. What didn?t work out as planned or expected?

Initially, we started off the Heroic dungeons at too high of a difficulty. The difficulty level rather abruptly changed when compared to the Heroics players experienced at the end of Wrath of the Lich King. This major change caught many players off guard, and frustrated some of them.


Is this guy really so retarded as to understate the millions of lost subs as "some" of them?

Though the length of the new heroics certainly was not the only reason, it most definitely was the MAIN reason.

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Taloquin posted:

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So, wait, I'm confused...

People still read blue posts expecting some sort of insight?

WTF?!?!?!

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Spookysheep posted:

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Q. What didn?t work out as planned or expected?

Initially, we started off the Heroic dungeons at too high of a difficulty. The difficulty level rather abruptly changed when compared to the Heroics players experienced at the end of Wrath of the Lich King. This major change caught many players off guard, and frustrated some of them.


Is this guy really so retarded as to understate the millions of lost subs as "some" of them?

Though the length of the new heroics certainly was not the only reason, it most definitely was the MAIN reason.

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kyrv13 posted:

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The follow up question should have been, why did you make them more abruptly more difficult, how was that going to be a good thing?

Assuming they don't just make random changes, WHY did they change it?

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kyrv13 posted:

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The follow up question should have been, why did you make them more abruptly more difficult, how was that going to be a good thing?

Assuming they don't just make random changes, WHY did they change it?

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Marzuk posted:

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kyrv13 posted:

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The follow up question should have been, why did you make them more abruptly more difficult, how was that going to be a good thing?

Assuming they don't just make random changes, WHY did they change it?

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The vocal minority complained constantly about the dumbing down of the game, how there was not enough challenge, how everything was faceroll, how people had far too many purples. and how welfare epics were ru. This was usually accompanied by a tail of how hard heroics were "back in the day" before WoW was "noobified".

Though I will say that it does not surprise me at all that people cried out for challenge, then hated it when they actually got it.

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Spookysheep posted:

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Q. What didn?t work out as planned or expected?

Initially, we started off the Heroic dungeons at too high of a difficulty. The difficulty level rather abruptly changed when compared to the Heroics players experienced at the end of Wrath of the Lich King. This major change caught many players off guard, and frustrated some of them.


Is this guy really so retarded as to understate the millions of lost subs as "some" of them?

Though the length of the new heroics certainly was not the only reason, it most definitely was the MAIN reason.

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Ugh_Lancelot posted:

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Did you really say "when skill actually applied to WoW?" If by skill you mean being passably able to respond to Simon Says minigames, then I agree.

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-Mithan- posted:

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Ugh_Lancelot posted:

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Did you really say "when skill actually applied to WoW?" If by skill you mean being passably able to respond to Simon Says minigames, then I agree.

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Skill matters. Dodging incoming fire, learning to control your character properly, moving your character around quickly while getting heals off, using the right skills at the right time, etc, etc, etc is SKILL and many people couldn't wrap their minds around it. Maybe you are good, but most people were not and needed to learn the mechanics in order to play better.

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Pantherr posted:

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I think you are letting your well known dislike of "scripted fights" color your judgement there, Gutter. You've made it abundantly clear numerous times on the board how little you think of raids or heroics, complaining how you get bored with scripted fights.

If these scripted fights were so face roll easy that you got bored with them, then everyone in the game would be decked out in the top tier gear. WoW, as with most any game that requires teamwork and for you to pay attention and react to events quickly, does require some degree of skill. Scoff at it all you like, it is what it is. You have to practice and learn the encounters to win.

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Guttersludge posted:

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"To be in "top end gear" in WOW does not require skill. It requires 25 people that actually give a shit about being in top end gear, and that is it.

Make "top end gear" available from solo instances, and the number of people in "top end gear" explodes exponentially, which proves the point nicely."

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Pantherr posted:

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The way I see it, if you have to practice at something in order to get better at it, it takes skill. And I strongly disagree with your statement that teamwork does not take skill. Being able to coordinate your actions with the actions of others to achieve a common goal does indeed take skill, whether it is a video game or a team sport. A well oiled team working together is a beautiful thing.

Guttersludge posted:

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"To be in "top end gear" in WOW does not require skill. It requires 25 people that actually give a shit about being in top end gear, and that is it.

Make "top end gear" available from solo instances, and the number of people in "top end gear" explodes exponentially, which proves the point nicely."

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I disagree with these statements. Put "25 people that actually give a shit about being in top end gear", throw them in a raid and they will fail. They would need to study the encounter and practice it a couple of times if they ever hoped to win.

As for your second comment about putting top end gear in solo dungeons, well duh! Of course if you put top end gear in solo dungeons, more people would have it. Solo dungeons are not as challenging and require a great deal less teamwork or skill to complete. Not sure where you were going with that horrible analogy.

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Guttersludge posted:

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"Teamwork "skill" required for WOW...
"Raid is at 8:00" (and 25 people actually show up)

Walah. Done deal. Massive skill required there!!"

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GutterSludge posted:

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WOW is a gear based grind game, not a skill based MMO.

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GutterSludge posted:

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-Mithan- posted:

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Ugh_Lancelot posted:

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Did you really say "when skill actually applied to WoW?" If by skill you mean being passably able to respond to Simon Says minigames, then I agree.

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Skill matters. Dodging incoming fire, learning to control your character properly, moving your character around quickly while getting heals off, using the right skills at the right time, etc, etc, etc is SKILL and many people couldn't wrap their minds around it. Maybe you are good, but most people were not and needed to learn the mechanics in order to play better.

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Mithan, compared to ..lets say, Asheron's Call, WOW has never required any dextrous skill like you describe here.

Dodging incoming fire? PLEASE. 99.99999% of attacks cannot be dodged by moving your character in WOW. (the other 0.00001% are silly boss mechanics)

Control your character properly? Why would they when the above is in place? It's not like you get a bonus for being uphill of your opponent(just one example) like you did in AC..

Moving and getting heals off? Roll a druid. Cake.

Ugh's description was spot on. Yours is completely ridiculous.

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-Mithan- posted:

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When I say "dodge incoming fire" I mean incoming spell attacks from bosses (lava fires, waves of flame, explosions, etc, etc). You know, "stay out of the sh**" stuff, which is incidentally, why most people die in 5 man Heroic Instances and Raids.

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GutterSludge posted:

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The only point that needs to be made to counter your (Mith) and Quasi's statements is this:


Without the GEAR, one CANNOT raid top end content, NO MATTER THE SKILL LEVEL OF THE PLAYER.

The BETTER the GEAR, the LESS skill is actually required (i.e. watching TV while wtfpwning raids..can we call this "negative skill level"?), to the point that it becomes "faceroll".

WOW is a gear based grind game, period.


Attack me personally all you want to Mithan, it will not change the truth.

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Pantherr posted:

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You guys are fighting a losing battle. Gutter seems determined to look down his nose at raiding. Any logical, reasonable person would realize that it takes more then "just showing up" to defeat high end raids but that's the mentality Gutter is stuck in so leave him to his delusions of grandeur.

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GutterSludge posted:

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Pantherr posted:

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You guys are fighting a losing battle. Gutter seems determined to look down his nose at raiding. Any logical, reasonable person would realize that it takes more then "just showing up" to defeat high end raids but that's the mentality Gutter is stuck in so leave him to his delusions of grandeur.

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I'm discussing the game in general.

If you think moving 6 pixels to the left during a raid makes you 'special' or 'skillful', after DBM TOLD you to do so, then keep on thinking that.

The rest of us know the truth.

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GutterSludge posted:

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Pantherr posted:

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You guys are fighting a losing battle. Gutter seems determined to look down his nose at raiding. Any logical, reasonable person would realize that it takes more then "just showing up" to defeat high end raids but that's the mentality Gutter is stuck in so leave him to his delusions of grandeur.

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I'm discussing the game in general.

If you think moving 6 pixels to the left during a raid makes you 'special' or 'skillful', after DBM TOLD you to do so, then keep on thinking that.

The rest of us know the truth.

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GutterSludge posted:

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Quasi, to follow your train of thought, breathing would require some amount of 'skill'. Using the bathroom. Eating.

If going through the motions of life equates to skill for you, I truly feel sorry for you bro.

I really do.


WOW skill required according to Quasi:

Equivocal to a bowel movement.

On second thought, you may be on to something here.....

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Quazimortal posted:

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I told you! Yes even controlling a bowel movement is a skill, granted it's one most people have no trouble learning but there are adult diapers for a reason!

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Arcilite_I posted:

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WoW Mithan's panties are twisted lately, WoW sucks now, get over it.

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Taloquin posted:

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So, wait, I'm confused...

People still read blue posts expecting some sort of insight?

WTF?!?!?!

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