Spookysheep
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http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/4544194/Dev_Watercooler_%E2%80%93_Mists_of_Pandaria_Stat_Changes-3_1_2012
Our recent talent calculator changes led to some players asking questions about how character and item stats were changing, because some spell and talent tooltips suggest that changes are coming. We compiled this list to attempt to explain more of what’s coming in Mists of Pandaria. First of all, please note that we actually aren’t making many stat changes compared to the ones we made in Cataclysm (“armor penetration -- gone!â€). Second, the stuff below can get a little technical. If you’re not into the subtle nuance of gear itemization, then don’t worry about it -- you don’t need to be to enjoy the expansion -- but we know there are plenty of you who enjoy some nuts and bolts talk, so here we go.
Spell Resistance
•Spell resistance is gone. There are no buffs that improve it and there shouldn’t be much, if any, spell resist gear left. We always thought the system was hard to understand and we weren’t getting much gameplay out of it. Now taking a step back, we can imagine how to develop a game where you’d want various forms of resist gear for certain situations and opponents. Resist gear could potentially be interesting, but it isn’t currently in World of Warcraft -- the game has just been moving away from that sort of thing for years.
•In the absence of spell resistance, there is no need for spell penetration on gear, so we’ll remove it as well.
Hit and Expertise
•We still think having stats that can be capped is a good game design. Rather than focusing solely on stacking your best stat, you have to decide how valuable it is to hit your target before you go back to stacking your best stat. However, we are making some changes.
•Hit and spell hit will no longer be separate stats. The hit stat negates melee miss and spell miss.
•Expertise will negate dodge and spell miss, then parry.
•Expertise will be listed as a percentage, just like hit, instead of having an intermediary stat.
•We are normalizing hit with expertise, so that 1% of each stat will require the same amount of rating.
•We are normalizing melee and spell hit, so that spell miss is equal to melee miss plus dodge.
•Against an equal level creature: 6% spell miss, 3% melee miss, 3% dodge, 3% parry (from the front only), 3% block (from the front only).
•Against a +1 level creature: 9% spell miss, 4.5% melee miss, 4.5% dodge, 4.5% parry (from the front only), 4.5% Block (from the front only).
•Against a +2 level creature: 12% spell miss, 6% melee miss, 6% dodge, 6% parry (from the front only), 6% Block (from the front only).
•Against a +3/boss level creature: 15% spell miss, 7.5% melee miss, 7.5% dodge, 7.5% parry (from the front only), 7.5% block (from the front only).
•Ranged attacks will be able to be dodged. Hunters will benefit from expertise and will have it on their gear, which will also allow hunters and Enhancement shaman to share gear more easily.
Block
• The chance to block will be handled by a separate combat roll for each attack that is not avoided. In other words, we first determine if an attack misses, or is dodged or parried. If it is not, then the attack has a chance to be blocked.
•This gives block a consistent value, regardless of avoidance. Currently block becomes more valuable the more you have.
•Block will also have diminishing returns, much like dodge and parry. This doesn’t mean that the value of block will go down as you get more block. It means that it won’t go up by as much when you get more block.
•We don’t expect Protection warriors or paladins to get “block capped†other than during temporary effects, such as mastery procs on trinkets. Block tanks will be balanced around this change. Our intent is to make playing block tanks more fun, not to nerf them.
•Also notice how Shield Block and Shield of the Righteous have changed in Mists.
Criticals
•All spells and abilities will crit for double damage, baseline. There are a few exceptions where crits can get larger, but the default is x 2.0 for everyone.
•This means that Enhancement shaman spells and rogue poisons will crit for double damage. Rogue poisons will also use the melee hit chance.
Resilience
• We are renaming this stat to “Defense (PvP)†or possibly “PvP Defense.†All players will have 30% base Defense, the same way all characters have some base Stamina.
•PvP gear will have Defense on it, as well as a new stat, “Power (PvP).†Power increases the damage you do to other players as well as the healing you do to other players in PvP situations.
• If you have a lot of Power, you’ll do more damage to other players, but they likely have Defense as well. If you fight players in lots of PvE gear, they’ll take more damage. Likewise, a player in PvE gear won’t have enough Power to effectively penetrate your Defense.
•The names PvP Power and PvP Defense may not be final, but we’re leaning towards going with stat names that are obviously PvP-related, rather than “fluffier†names that might not be as easy to grasp. We want it to be clear to players that neither Power nor Defense have any relevance when fighting creatures, such as in dungeons or raids.
•PvP gear will be lower in item level than PvE gear of an equivalent tier, however the Power and Defense stats will make sure that PvP gear is more powerful in PvP (both offensively and defensively) than PvE gear. In our budgeting system, the PvP stats will be free rather than causing other stats, such as Strength or haste, to be smaller as a result of including Power or Defense.
•The goal of this change is to make it easier for a PvP player to participate in PvE, or for a PvE player to get started in PvP. Currently, we feel it is too large a barrier to go from one to the other, and the result has been that we see more and more players choosing to focus exclusively on only PvP or PvE. In earlier expansions, it was more feasible to use PvE gear in Arenas or Battlegrounds until you acquired the more useful PvP gear. The same was true of being able to use your PvP gear in a dungeon or raid until you acquired something better. In Cataclysm, stepping into PvP with no PvP gear would result in a player being so ineffective that it was difficult to even make progress towards acquiring PvP gear.
•For the higher-end of PvP or PvE (say Gladiators or heroic raiders), we believe those players will still gravitate towards the dedicated PvP or PvE gear. It is the players who are working towards those two end games that will benefit more from some cross over.
That’s a lot of information, and it probably sounds more set-in-stone than it really is. We’ll continue to iterate as players poke holes in our ideas, tell us what is working out and what isn’t, and finally get to experience it first hand in beta.
Greg “Ghostcrawler†Street is the lead systems designer for World of Warcraft. He didn’t name Mogu’dar, Blade of a Thousand Slaves, but he wishes he had.
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NukeMage
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This does not seem too bad, however, it is all about the implementation.
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Alpha_Swift
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Sounds reasonable.
"The names PvP Power and PvP Defense may not be final, but we’re leaning towards going with stat names that are obviously PvP-related"
Ummm..Penetration and Resilience sort of mean these things.
But what I really want to hear from Blizzard is "We were drunk on a bar stool when we came up with the Talent changes we proposed for MoP. We realize this and are swearing off the vodka. We'll propose an entirely new system next week"
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Sprawl-zero1eye-
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I always liked the resistance gear mechanics and collecting of said gear. It brought the group together towards a common goal outside of meeting for a few hours weekly to kill a few bosses for loot.
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The PVP stuff seems fine. I always hated the term resilience.
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GrimTempest
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Block will also have diminishing returns, much like dodge and parry. This doesn’t mean that the value of block will go down as you get more block. It means that it won’t go up by as much when you get more block.
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Shenron_
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the pvp gear is disappointing to me. i never liked the whole resilience concept in the first place...but now that offense is being divided into pvp and pve gear as well it means i am further screwed as a rogue.
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_Taebo_
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They just can't seem to find a balance can they?
Pretty soon all stats will be removed and you'll just pick a class "Fighter or Mage" and you'll use a sword or a staff.
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Dums
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GrimTempest posted:
Block will also have diminishing returns, much like dodge and parry. This doesn’t mean that the value of block will go down as you get more block. It means that it won’t go up by as much when you get more block.
lol, agreed. They just can't leave things well alone, can they?
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Ugh_Lancelot
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• Ranged
attacks will be able to be dodged. Hunters will benefit from expertise
and will have it on their gear, which will also allow hunters and
Enhancement shaman to share gear more easily.
rofl.../popcorn
I can only imagine the hilarity that will be the first month of WoW 5.0.
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sarnsereg
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posted:
•PvP gear will be lower in item level than PvE gear of an equivalent tier, however the Power and Defense stats will make sure that PvP gear is more powerful in PvP (both offensively and defensively) than PvE gear. In our budgeting system, the PvP stats will be free rather than causing other stats, such as Strength or haste, to be smaller as a result of including Power or Defense
THANK YOU BLIZZARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! hopefully no more tanks getting into a heroic and finding out they only got in because they had pvp gear and have no actualy takning gear.
on another note...
how the EFF is magic resistance too hard? they completely screwed it over. it should just be everyone starts with 0 magic resist then you can add resist to it, then also add debuffs to it... makes sense to me. guess when people say they keep dumbing the game down they got it right there... granted, i hated having difference resist sets in vanilla but only because blizzards been so bad about inventory for gear and carrying around 2-3 sets of gear sucks.
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GrimTempest
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Dums posted:
GrimTempest posted:
Block will also have diminishing returns, much like dodge and parry. This doesn’t mean that the value of block will go down as you get more block. It means that it won’t go up by as much when you get more block.
lol, agreed. They just can't leave things well alone, can they?
changing things isn't really what has me banging my head into the desk, its the oxymoronic statement. obviously the value of block is going to go down if it doesn't add as much per point the higher the stat goes. less effect per point = less value per point. why am i not surprised that this is a ghostcrawler post.
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Sociop
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Ugh_Lancelot posted:
• Ranged
attacks will be able to be dodged. Hunters will benefit from expertise
and will have it on their gear, which will also allow hunters and
Enhancement shaman to share gear more easily.
rofl.../popcorn
I can only imagine the hilarity that will be the first month of WoW 5.0.
Sounds like a big Hunter nerf, either they have to stack expertise which will take away from crit & haste costing them DPS or get dodged costing them DPS, and that class is already a below average DPS class.
I tell you Greg Street has a big stick up his bottom with regards to the Hunter class, has from day one.
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Spookysheep
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Get ready for hunters to start rolling on rings/neck/trinkets etc. with expertise... so that is how many classes now that will be rolling on agility/expertise items?
/shake head
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NukeMage
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Spookysheep posted:
Get ready for hunters to start rolling on rings/neck/trinkets etc. with expertise... so that is how many classes now that will be rolling on agility/expertise items?
/shake head
They will be in about the same boat as intellect based classes for most of their gear.
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Taloquin
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All this says to me is "Ok guys, we're too stupid and lazy to manage what we've already done, so we're going to dumb it down more because we're too stupid and lazy to figure out what we did".
The majority of these changes only say they are trying to make their own jobs easier, like destroying a game wasn't easy enough.
I can safely say that Ghostcrawler has now surpassed John Smedley. For those who don't know, John Smedley is pretty much the driving force that destroyed Star Wars Galaxies. Granted, SWG never had as many subs as WoW does, but GC has chased away more subs than Smedley ever did.
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Dei_Ray_HG
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I've always said PvP and PvE are incompatible.
Trying to balance one unbalances the other. This battle has been ongoing at least since 1999 when Asherton's Call was released. Developers continue to make people vs computer and people vs people equal across any number of scenarios while maintaining the integrity of any number of classes.
What inevitably happens is a gradual loss of computer/person/class integrity until amorphous blobs are poking sticks at each other and no one cares anymore.
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Sociop
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Dei_Ray_HG posted:
I've always said PvP and PvE are incompatible.
Trying to balance one unbalances the other. This battle has been ongoing at least since 1999 when Asherton's Call was released. Developers continue to make people vs computer and people vs people equal across any number of scenarios while maintaining the integrity of any number of classes.
What inevitably happens is a gradual loss of computer/person/class integrity until amorphous blobs are poking sticks at each other and no one cares anymore.
ROFL!!!
World of Warcraft's future in a nutshell!
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Ugh_Lancelot
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Dei_Ray_HG posted:
What inevitably happens is a gradual loss of computer/person/class integrity until amorphous blobs are poking sticks at each other and no one cares anymore.
Classic. Thanks for that belly laugh. 
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Cawlin
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Ugh_Lancelot posted:
• Ranged
attacks will be able to be dodged. Hunters will benefit from expertise
and will have it on their gear, which will also allow hunters and
Enhancement shaman to share gear more easily.
rofl.../popcorn
I can only imagine the hilarity that will be the first month of WoW 5.0.
LOL! How true!
Blizzard's devs have a ninja fetish...
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Shenron_
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so ranged attacks couldn't be dodged before? i been popping evasion vs hunters all these years lol. well the worst part of a hunter is usually their pet so it was worthwhile anyways
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Ferrydust
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•PvP gear will be lower in item level than PvE gear of an equivalent tier
There is nothing like being told you are second rate if you PVP!
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Quazimortal
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Blizzard has already proven that they can't release a stat changing patch effectively. This is going to be epically hilarious.
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Ugh_Lancelot
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Ferrydust posted:
•PvP gear will be lower in item level than PvE gear of an equivalent tier
There is nothing like being told you can't game the iLevel system anymore with gear from PVP!
FTFY.
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Fist_de_Yuma
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Ferrydust posted:
•PvP gear will be lower in item level than PvE gear of an equivalent tier
There is nothing like being told you are second rate if you PVP!
I can see as a PvP you might think this. There is a big problem with people getting into the upper level instances using PvP gear. It is not effective in PvE. It is not uncommon to see two such players in a group; which mostly means wipes until they finally drop out. You would laugh at a PvE geared player doing a PvP battle. We might laught except we are tired of carrying them.
Example; We had a melee DPS player in the Time chain with; 5 PvP, 2 caster, no enchants, no gems. When I asked him how what he was doing there he replied, "How else am I to get gear?" Just asking that question shows he would not understand the answer. The level item is a good filter until you have stupid people playing the system.
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Ayadread
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Glad I finally packed it in. I'll resub to play through the new panda-land and content, but will quickly unsub. I'd actually consider staying subbed if they went back to the WOTLK model whiched allowed for more access to progression and matching gear sets without having to raid. And having lower item level pvp gear opposed to pve gear is a "screw you" from the devs to people who only pvp at end game.
Edit: in response to the above, simply alter the dungeon finder to not utilize pvp gear when determining a person's item level. With as much money Blizzard has raked in, I would think they could "figure it out" by now.
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Quazimortal
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Ayadread posted:
With as much money Blizzard has raked in, I would think they could "figure it out" by now.
If only more money meant they had more sense. Amirite?
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Quazimortal posted:
Ayadread posted:
With as much money Blizzard has raked in, I would think they could "figure it out" by now.
If only more money meant they had more sense. Amirite?
You are indeed right.
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Ferrydust posted:
•PvP gear will be lower in item level than PvE gear of an equivalent tier
There is nothing like being told you are second rate if you PVP!
LOL!
You're not second rate if you PvP, your character equipped in PvP gear just doesn't merit the same consideration in terms of preparedness when you try to PvE in that PvP gear as someone who is PvEing in PvE gear.
PvE players face the same issue when they show up for PvP in their PvE gear - only the difference is that their characters die right away where as the PvP geared character in a raid just gets carried by the rest of the raid due to their subpar performance.
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If ignorance were painful, half the posters here would be on morphine drips.
Everyone playing WoW knows everything about playing two classes: 1) their own and 2) Hunters
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-Peo-
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Cawlin posted:
You're not second rate if you PvP, your character equipped in PvP gear just doesn't merit the same consideration in terms of preparedness when you try to PvE in that PvP gear as someone who is PvEing in PvE gear.
PvE players face the same issue when they show up for PvP in their PvE gear - only the difference is that their characters die right away where as the PvP geared character in a raid just gets carried by the rest of the raid due to their subpar performance.
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Phexx
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Ayadread posted:
And having lower item level pvp gear opposed to pve gear is a "screw you" from the devs to people who only pvp at end game.
If you only PvP at end game why would you care how your gear compares to PvE gear? Besides the epeen factor of being able to say "I'm i9000 bitches!!" of course...
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-Peo-
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Phexx posted:
Ayadread posted:
And having lower item level pvp gear opposed to pve gear is a "screw you" from the devs to people who only pvp at end game.
If you only PvP at end game why would you care how your gear compares to PvE gear? Besides the epeen factor of being able to say "I'm i9000 bitches!!" of course...
Becuz PvPers want their gear to be usable to get into endgame PvE. They don't want to actually work for their gear, they just want to enter BGs and then have PvE players carry them thru DS heroic.
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Ugh_Lancelot
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You can't AFK for PVE gear like you can for PVP gear.
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Phexx
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-Peo- posted:
Phexx posted:
Ayadread posted:
And having lower item level pvp gear opposed to pve gear is a "screw you" from the devs to people who only pvp at end game.
If you only PvP at end game why would you care how your gear compares to PvE gear? Besides the epeen factor of being able to say "I'm i9000 bitches!!" of course...
Becuz PvPers want their gear to be usable to get into endgame PvE. They don't want to actually work for their gear, they just want to enter BGs and then have PvE players carry them thru DS heroic.
Oh I know why this particular poster wants it. I was more referring to his comment about people who ONLY PvP at end game.
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