Sansfear
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Chu: DOE not interested in lower gas prices, it wants to force us to 'go green'
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I was really surprised to hear him say that out loud.
Thanks, Obama!
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0212/73408.html
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Groucho48
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Chu: DOE not interested in lower gas prices, it wants to force us to 'go green'
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“But is the overall goal to get our price†of gasoline down, asked Nunnelee.
“No, the overall goal is to decrease our dependency on oil, to build and strengthen our economy,†Chu replied.
Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0212/73408.html#ixzz1nqx0Iz5B
In the long term, that is the best policy. In the short term, there isn't much that the DoE can do to lower gas prices except maybe open up the strategic reserve, which is a very, very, short term "solution".
Carter tried to start steering the country away from our dependency on oil. One of the first things Reagan did when he got into office was to remove the solar panels from the WH roof. If the country had listened to Carter, we wouldn't have to worry what the price of gas was.
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__Bonk__
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Chu: DOE not interested in lower gas prices, it wants to force us to 'go green'
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Carter's energy policy consisted of him wearing a sweater and telling America to just deal with it.
High gas prices hurts the economic recovery and hurts poor and middle class people the most.
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Taliesihne
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Much like Eisenhower was visionary on the growing influence of the MI complex, Carter knew wtf he was doing when it came to energy.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/primary-resources/carter-energy/
That's a link to a speech he gave in 1977, right before he submitted his energy policy. It's shockingly prophetic.
You will ignore it and continue to repeat your idiocy Bonk, as that is your shtick, but you are so wrong it's not funny.
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Manegarm
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Welcome to the civilized world..
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AzureTyger
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I agree with what he is saying and it is an educated and proactive viewpoint. It's a shame Republicams and their mouthpieces will turn it into another thoughtless talking point for the fools who vote for them.
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Sin_of_Onin
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Having a long term energy strategy is very important for the government and it has less to do with going green and more to do with long term economic efficiency.
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Grymlo
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Having long term goals doesnt mean you forget about todays problems and basically tell a crying nation to piss off and deal with it.
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Scarne
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If more and more oil is coming from oil sands and deep water wells, it is impossible for gas prices to go significantly lower. Oil from those sources is simply more expensive than the old standard stick a pipe in the ground oil wells.
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Sin_of_Onin
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Grymlo posted:
Having long term goals doesnt mean you forget about todays problems and basically tell a crying nation to piss off and deal with it.
Actually what it means is that you spend your money on efficiency and not kicking the problem down the road. You can't fix gas prices without spending money. If you are going to spend that money there are better ways then simply trying to target gas prices.
It is hilarious to watch so called free market conservatives argue to strongly for government intervention.
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reesescups
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Chu: DOE not interested in lower gas prices, it wants to force us to 'go green'
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I am pretty sure it's not the DOE's or the federal governments job to nationalize our energy sources. There fore, I don't really see what the DoE or the Federal Government can really do to private oil companies to force them into a price structure that doesn't allow them the huge profits they are raping us with.
Hell we already pay the oil companies billions upon billions (possibly trillions) in subsidizes, what more can we really do to help the oil companies and convince them not to rape us?
No - it should be the aim and goal of the DoE and Federal Government to sponsor research and implementation projects that are strategic for reaching long term sustainability and independence from energy sources outside of our immediate sphere of influence.
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SoBaKi
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Sansfear posted:
OIL WILL LAST FOREEEEEEEEEVVVVVVVVVVVVVEEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRR!
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Moe_Nox
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First priority is making sure everyone has enough affordable energy. After that is done then push to go green.
$5/gallon gas and random brown outs across the power grid is NOT getting business done.
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SoBaKi
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Moe_Nox posted:
First priority is making sure everyone has enough affordable energy. After that is done then push to go green.
$5/gallon gas and random brown outs across the power grid is NOT getting business done.
Too late. It's been discussed over an over again, between unstable environments (political, economical, culture) to increased cost of oil extraction, affordable energy discussions and actions SHOULD have started several decades ago. It's now too late.
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Taliesihne
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Whoops, wrong thread
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Bowlartz
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Chu: DOE not interested in lower gas prices, it wants to force us to 'go green'
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I am pretty sure the supply of oil right now is out pacing demand by quite a bit. In the US alone we are closing refineries and shipping gasoline to other countries because we are swimming in the stuff.
The real fix is to significantly raise taxes on commodities traders profits from oil and gasoline...to the tune of 50-60%. Make it bad investment.
Capitalism is still the best system but it needs *proper* rules to prevent it from being one of the worst.
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Scarne
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Moe_Nox posted:
First priority is making sure everyone has enough affordable energy.
Only way for everyone to have enough affordable energy is for the government to more heavily subsidize it. So you are going to have to increase taxes on something else in order to provide for this energy subsidy you want (or go the Bush route of unfunded spending and increase the debt). 
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Moe_Nox
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SoBaKi posted:
Moe_Nox posted:
First priority is making sure everyone has enough affordable energy. After that is done then push to go green.
$5/gallon gas and random brown outs across the power grid is NOT getting business done.
Too late. It's been discussed over an over again, between unstable environments (political, economical, culture) to increased cost of oil extraction, affordable energy discussions and actions SHOULD have started several decades ago. It's now too late.
If the liberals plan is 'OMG TOO LATE' then step the fook out of the way and stop impeding progress.
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reesescups
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Chu: DOE not interested in lower gas prices, it wants to force us to 'go green'
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Moe_Nox posted:
SoBaKi posted:
Moe_Nox posted:
First priority is making sure everyone has enough affordable energy. After that is done then push to go green.
$5/gallon gas and random brown outs across the power grid is NOT getting business done.
Too late. It's been discussed over an over again, between unstable environments (political, economical, culture) to increased cost of oil extraction, affordable energy discussions and actions SHOULD have started several decades ago. It's now too late.
If the liberals plan is 'OMG TOO LATE' then step the fook out of the way and stop impeding progress.
That right thar is a 180 fisted point of view....
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SoBaKi
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Moe_Nox posted:
SoBaKi posted:
Moe_Nox posted:
First priority is making sure everyone has enough affordable energy. After that is done then push to go green.
$5/gallon gas and random brown outs across the power grid is NOT getting business done.
Too late. It's been discussed over an over again, between unstable environments (political, economical, culture) to increased cost of oil extraction, affordable energy discussions and actions SHOULD have started several decades ago. It's now too late.
If the liberals plan is 'OMG TOO LATE' then step the fook out of the way and stop impeding progress.
What phucking progress are you talking about? The pipeline from Canada?
The ONLY viable progress is one in which we don't rely on oil as our primary energy source.
You stupid, phucking crunt.
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Moe_Nox
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Tell me again why its too late for affordable energy?
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SoBaKi
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Moe_Nox posted:
Tell me again why its too late for affordable energy?
Wait, so now you hate capitalism? Perhaps you need to talk with Exxon?
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Moe_Nox
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While you were playing nice with your butternut squash and screaming "BUSH OIL BUDDIES!!2!' Obama got elected. Those prices are his baby now. so enough with the TOO LATE.
Have Obama ride his unicorn and shoot magic rainbows at the problem until its gone.
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SoBaKi
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Moe_Nox posted:
Argle......
So, you hate capitalism now? Perhaps you want to talk with Exxon?
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Sin_of_Onin
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Moe_Nox posted:
While you were playing nice with your butternut squash and screaming "BUSH OIL BUDDIES!!2!' Obama got elected. Those prices are his baby now. so enough with the TOO LATE.
Have Obama ride his unicorn and shoot magic rainbows at the problem until its gone.
I have no idea why an independent like yourself would devolve into the nonsensical finger pointing like above?
It makes no sense to me.
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paulg_68
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We need a plan to get off of oil. Obama and the people who paid for him want the solution to be solar.
Unfortunately since solar isn't a viable solution, we'll need a plan to get off of solar next.
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SoBaKi
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paulg_68 posted:
Is it nap time yet?
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
Moe_Nox posted:
While you were playing nice with your butternut squash and screaming "BUSH OIL BUDDIES!!2!' Obama got elected. Those prices are his baby now. so enough with the TOO LATE.
Have Obama ride his unicorn and shoot magic rainbows at the problem until its gone.
I have no idea why an independent like yourself would devolve into the nonsensical finger pointing like above?
It makes no sense to me.
Apparently you cannot read a chart either, to see where prices were when Obama took office.
If you think demonstrating that these current prices fall to Obama's responsibility not ZOMGBUSH is finger pointing, then yeah.. leave the heavy thinking for others.
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Grymlo posted:
Having long term goals doesnt mean you forget about todays problems and basically tell a crying nation to piss off and deal with it.
Our "Crying Nation" was screaming STAYCATIONS!!! in 2004 when gas hit $2.00 a gallon. A couple of years later we were happily paying $3.00. Americans are fickle idiots who's crying shouldn't be listened to.
Shut up and take your medicine.
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_Enkidu_
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It's pretty stupid to cry about gas prices when you are so obviously fat and in need of the exercise. 
The government subsidizes the oil industry to the tune of 150 billion a year. If the governmet shouldn't be in the business of picking winners and losers, it definately shouldn't bein the business of picking just losers. Oil is a dead end loser that has already cost us trillions of dollars and thousands of lives. Wind, solar, and hydropower are the answer. They don't force us to make terrible tradeoffs that empower our enemies or fight wars for short-sighted policy decisions.
If you choose oil, you hate America. Why do you hate America?
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Moe_Nox posted:
Apparently you cannot read a chart either, to see where prices were when Obama took office.
If you think demonstrating that these current prices fall to Obama's responsibility not ZOMGBUSH is finger pointing, then yeah.. leave the heavy thinking for others.
I guess in a world where there are two choices, blame Bush or blame Obama your argument makes sense.
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paulg_68
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As opposed to your world where the options are blame Bush.
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theredkay1
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Bowlartz posted:
I am pretty sure the supply of oil right now is out pacing demand by quite a bit. In the US alone we are closing refineries and shipping gasoline to other countries because we are swimming in the stuff.
The real fix is to significantly raise taxes on commodities traders profits from oil and gasoline...to the tune of 50-60%. Make it bad investment.
Capitalism is still the best system but it needs *proper* rules to prevent it from being one of the worst.
This is wrong.
The supply of gasoline in the US outpaces the demand in the US. So we export.
Gasoline and oil are not the same thing. Supply/demand for an end use product in one country shouldnt be confused with worldwide supply/demand for a raw material.
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Tych2
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I don't like these gas prices and I am going to lash out against them to the people in charge when I am able to.
That being said I wish we would stop being the world's police and devote that money towards energy independence.
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SoBaKi
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Tych2 posted:
I don't like these gas prices and I am going to lash out against them to the people in charge when I am able to.
That being said I wish we would stop being the world's police and devote that money towards energy independence.
So you're going to sell off your Exxon, Shell, BP, etc stock?
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Apparently I need to actually spell out everything. When I say people in charge I mean the people in charge that I can have an effect on. Politicians. They will get my wrath in the form of my not voting for them.
I have no idea what stocks I own. My financial guy does. If he loses me money then I get someone else. Pretty simple.
So I have no idea if I have Exxon, Shell, BP, or etc. 
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I however have an excellent idea. God bless Marathon Oil.
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It's funny to watch normally self-proclaimed free market crusaders demanding the government intervene to bring down gas prices. What ever happened to "if you don't like the price, don't buy it?"
And don't cry to me about how you don't have a choice. You do. You always have a choice! It's not anyone else's fault you built your life around cheap oil and driving an hour each way to work so you could live in your sterile McMansion in your sterile suburb bedroom community.
[face_self_righteous_libertarian]
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Tych2 posted:
Politicians. They will get my wrath in the form of my not voting for them.
Politicians don't control gas prices. Punishing them for something they can't control is about like taking a baseball bat to your car because it snowed outside and you can't use it.
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Do you live close to work to shorten your commute? Do you own the most efficient (MPG) car within your price range? Do you buy local products? Have you made sure your retail electric provider isnt using oil burning power generation? Have you stopped flying and buying things and moved into an unpowered hut?
If not make sure you rap your own knuckles.
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
Having a long term energy strategy is very important for the government and it has less to do with going green and more to do with long term economic efficiency.
The US has had the DOE pursue this for neatly forty years, it had failed and will continue to fail because it stupidly believes that government is smarter than the free market
It is time for the DOE to DIE
The US has faced 2 major energy crisis in its time and the free market not government solved both of them
It is time to kick government out of the energy market before it really breaks something
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Bowlartz posted:
I am pretty sure the supply of oil right now is out pacing demand by quite a bit. In the US alone we are closing refineries and shipping gasoline to other countries because we are swimming in the stuff.
Here's a little mental exercise for you (don't worry, it's a small one). If the supply of oil is outpacing demand, the free market would dictate that oil prices would...do what now?
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Tych2 posted:
Politicians. They will get my wrath in the form of my not voting for them.
Politicians don't control gas prices.
Of course they can control it. Do you think the most powerful man in the world would just sit on his hands? They can set policy to discourage or encourage some types of activities. They choose not to.
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The 'free market' solved them with higher prices and economic slowdowns.
The market should respond with increasingly efficient oil usage and alternatives to oil. The main thrust of the DoE is efficiency and alternatives and it plays a role because the free market always has inefficiences outside of your world of make believe.
Inefficiences like funding for long term research, bridge financing to get from the lab to manufacturing with economies of scale and onto the store shelves. The market is very good at short term, not so great at long term plans....this is caused by the fact that people dont live forever and nobody is at their job forever so nobody in the market really cares about the long term. So your solution to a lack of a long term plan is to empower the group that by its very nature does not do long term planning. But when you rely on magic I guess anything is possible.
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It's already subsidized by billions per year, Tych. The price at the pump nowhere near reflects the price it takes to extract, refine and ship gasoline. And we're still on the hook for those billions, too. So what else would you suggest they do?
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Tych2 posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
Tych2 posted:
Politicians. They will get my wrath in the form of my not voting for them.
Politicians don't control gas prices.
Of course they can control it. Do you think the most powerful man in the world would just sit on his hands? They can set policy to discourage or encourage some types of activities. They choose not to.
What would you have them do?
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ZigmundZag posted:
Bowlartz posted:
I am pretty sure the supply of oil right now is out pacing demand by quite a bit. In the US alone we are closing refineries and shipping gasoline to other countries because we are swimming in the stuff.
Here's a little mental exercise for you (don't worry, it's a small one). If the supply of oil is outpacing demand, the free market would dictate that oil prices would...do what now?
shut down refineries to keep up your profit margins. yay capitalism.
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theredkay1 posted:
The 'free market' solved them with higher prices and economic slowdowns.
You are confused, that is happening now with a government run energy market
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Yukishiro1 posted:
What would you have them do?
I have no idea. If I had the answers I wouldn't be doing tax preparation.
ZigmundZag posted:
So what else would you suggest they do?
I have no idea. If I had the answers I wouldn't be doing tax preparation.
theredkay1 posted:
Do you live close to work to shorten your commute? Do you own the most efficient (MPG) car within your price range? Do you buy local products? Have you made sure your retail electric provider isnt using oil burning power generation? Have you stopped flying and buying things and moved into an unpowered hut?
I live about a mile and some change from my office. I do not own the most efficient (MPG) car within your price range. I do buy local products whenever I can. I do not make sure your retail electric provider isnt using oil burning power generation. I have not stopped flying. I have not stopped buying things and I have not moved into an unpowered hut
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Tych2 posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
What would you have them do?
I have no idea.
And no one has any idea. There is nothing you can really do, short of simply having the government pick up part of the cost. Which encourages gas prices to go up, not down.
The only thing that can be done is the government trying to get people to use energy more efficiently. Short term gas prices are beyond the control of politicians except in a socialist state where the government tries to set the prices.
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If thats your solution then you are fired! 
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Anyone who tells you they have a solution is lying and shouldn't be hired in the first place!
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Do republicans want to socialize the oil business?
If yes(and it seems like they do) then why are they against socializing healthcare?
Answer: selfish and retarded.
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Of course not. What Republicans want is the president to wave a magic wand and bring down gas prices. If possible, by taking money going to poor people and sending it to them as a gas rebate instead.
RWNs posted:
Cheap oil should be a basic human right! Healthcare, though? Pfft.
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Groucho48 posted:
“But is the overall goal to get our price†of gasoline down, asked Nunnelee.
“No, the overall goal is to decrease our dependency on oil, to build and strengthen our economy,†Chu replied.
Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0212/73408.html#ixzz1nqx0Iz5B
In the long term, that is the best policy. In the short term, there isn't much that the DoE can do to lower gas prices except maybe open up the strategic reserve, which is a very, very, short term "solution".
Carter tried to start steering the country away from our dependency on oil. One of the first things Reagan did when he got into office was to remove the solar panels from the WH roof. If the country had listened to Carter, we wouldn't have to worry what the price of gas was.
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On a side note there is a very real solution.
Thorium powered Molten Salt reactors that are small enough to be installed on about an acre of land and provide 10-50 MW of power generation...
That coupled with EV's and we could seriously dent our dependence on oil.
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The billion dollar invention will be an easy install-add on component that can be retrofitted on all the vehicles to allow them to leverage electric energy.
Once we have it, we can build nuclear powerplants.
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Well sure. But that's a long-term solution. Not something the president can wave a magic wand over tomorrow.
I guess I should have said the only way to bring down gas prices in the long term is to bring down demand faster than supply dwindles. The only really way to do that is to get people to use oil more efficiently or to get them off oil.
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Anyone who tells you they have a solution is lying and shouldn't be hired in the first place!
No one tells me they have a solution at all. All I hear is.. 'It's too hard' or 'Well whats YOUR solution' or 'there IS no solution'.
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Lots of things could dent our dependence on oil.
But we'll keep on doing what we're doing until gas reaches $8 / gallon. Because we're idiots. All of us.
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The ither problem is asia. Their oil requirements will go up and if they become like us but with 10x the need then there will ge no oil left.
So we can go to war with all of asia to reduce the price of oil.
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imaloon1 posted:
On a side note there is a very real solution.
Thorium powered Molten Salt reactors that are small enough to be installed on about an acre of land and provide 10-50 MW of power generation...
That coupled with EV's and we could seriously dent our dependence on oil.
Does this work? Lets do this. Get it done!
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Brother_Tempus posted:
theredkay1 posted:
The 'free market' solved them with higher prices and economic slowdowns.
You are confused, that is happening now with a government run energy market
So in your imaginary world the free market genie would not respond to increased demand and increased cost of producing the supply with higher prices?
How would it respond? Would there be ponies? My daughter would love a pony.
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eodoll posted:
Do republicans want to socialize the oil business?
no
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Tych2 posted:
imaloon1 posted:
On a side note there is a very real solution.
Thorium powered Molten Salt reactors that are small enough to be installed on about an acre of land and provide 10-50 MW of power generation...
That coupled with EV's and we could seriously dent our dependence on oil.
Does this work? Lets do this. Get it done!
It would do a little on its own. Unless you also bought an electric vehicle it wouldn't do much, though.
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New plan!
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Tych2 posted:
imaloon1 posted:
On a side note there is a very real solution.
Thorium powered Molten Salt reactors that are small enough to be installed on about an acre of land and provide 10-50 MW of power generation...
That coupled with EV's and we could seriously dent our dependence on oil.
Does this work? Lets do this. Get it done!
Yep the reactor ran for something like 25 THOUSAND hours at Lawrence Livermore I believe. They shut it down for no apparent reason and instead of going with the proven foolproof design they went instead with the massively over complicated Uranium light water reactors and we ended up with Fukushima, Chernobyl and Three Mile Island. Of which I barely count Three Mile Island but w/e...
I know it's old hat but the Chinese have recently invested a TON of money into Thorium tech.
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Well sure. But that's a long-term solution. Not something the president can wave a magic wand over tomorrow.
the government has had nearly 40 years to implement a solution, that is very ling term ... It has failed
doing the same thing and hoping for a different result shows how insane these technocrats and their indoctrinated flock if sheep are and how dangerous
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As is common in these kinds of threads - conservatives getting utterly destroyed by logic, empirical evidence and history - but nonetheless plowing ahead completely undeterred. 
Obama's green energy initiatives are dead, done, over, finished barring some sort of miracle where the GOP loses the House and doesn't win the Senate (nor control > 40 seats) this year AND Obama gets re-elected. Oil companies are shutting down refineries because of excess capacity. Speculators know this and are using this opportunity to help drive up prices. Free marketeers want Obama to "fix it" but they don't say how. If he proposes price caps (which would never pass Congress anyway by virtue of the fact that it's Obama proposing them) then he's OMGZOCIALISM! and if he does nothing he doesn't care. Just like Bush, he can't win no matter what.
As has been said in this thread already, we had the chance 40 years ago to embrace alternative energy and instead we chose to DRILL BABY DRILL our way past peak oil and somehow that is the fault of the people who advocate embracing alternative energy. It makes no sense.
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imaloon1 posted:
On a side note there is a very real solution.
Thorium powered Molten Salt reactors that are small enough to be installed on about an acre of land and provide 10-50 MW of power generation...
That coupled with EV's and we could seriously dent our dependence on oil.
What about the hydrogen fuel cells we heard about a few years ago? Bush actually mentioned these as a solution but it never went anywhere and I don't hear anyone pimping that idea today at all.
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there are times when the federal gov't steps in and throws tons of money and effort behind a project for a cause that it deems worthy and those projects are to the great benefit of the nation as a whole...
2 notable examples are the space and nuclear programs....
if the govt is serious about energy independence/alternatives then it will need an effort on the scale of those programs to get it done and it would be one of the rare times when the govt did something useful
it will need to collect the brightest people across the world and stick them in a room somewhere while throwing money at them until they succeed....
unfortunately the only reasons the 2 above programs even happened was because we were racing with another country.....so in reality it will probably happen...but only when things get so dire that there is no other choice or we are doing it to beat a rival country
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eodoll posted:
Do republicans want to socialize the oil business?
If yes(and it seems like they do) then why are they against socializing healthcare?
Answer: selfish and retarded.
The oil industry lacks the necessary components for the free market to work properly.
Health care does not.
I'm not for socializing the oil industry... but then I'm not opposed to it either.
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Ashmaele posted:
As is common in these kinds of threads - statists getting utterly destroyed by logic, empirical evidence and history
fixed for accuracy
Historically the US had had 2 major energy crisises, wood and whale oil. Both time the free market not government has solved the problem
The fact is the DOE has had nearly 40 years to do what the free market was able to accomplish twice and has failed
Ash can now continue to spout more lies if he wishes but he will continue to be priven a liar every time becuase history and the facts do not support him
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imaloon1 posted:
Yep the reactor ran for something like 25 THOUSAND hours at Lawrence Livermore I believe. They shut it down for no apparent reason and instead of going with the proven foolproof design they went instead with the massively over complicated Uranium light water reactors and we ended up with Fukushima, Chernobyl and Three Mile Island. Of which I barely count Three Mile Island but w/e...
I know it's old hat but the Chinese have recently invested a TON of money into Thorium tech.
Seems very conspiracy theorish to say that this program worked flawlessly 50 years ago...and in the 50 years since nobody on earth has picked up the project.
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Ashmaele posted:
imaloon1 posted:
On a side note there is a very real solution.
Thorium powered Molten Salt reactors that are small enough to be installed on about an acre of land and provide 10-50 MW of power generation...
That coupled with EV's and we could seriously dent our dependence on oil.
What about the hydrogen fuel cells we heard about a few years ago? Bush actually mentioned these as a solution but it never went anywhere and I don't hear anyone pimping that idea today at all.
No infrastructure for pumping really. Electricity at least has the grid and tying into it isn't nearly as hard as replacing gas pumps.
Further the hydrolysis idea that was supposed to basically make KRILLIONS of pounds of hydrogen from seawater hasn't panned out. It basically turns out to be about a 1.5 - 1.0 EROI which is worse than everything but Corn.
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imaloon1 posted:
Further the hydrolysis idea that was supposed to basically make KRILLIONS of pounds of hydrogen from seawater hasn't panned out. It basically turns out to be about a 1.5 - 1.0 EROI which is worse than everything but Corn.
Which is what we pay people billions to use. 
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Yukishiro1 posted:
The only really way to do that is to get people to use oil more efficiently or to get them off oil.
How do you get them to do that?
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DemonicXH posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
The only really way to do that is to get people to use oil more efficiently or to get them off oil.
How do you get them to do that?
force, coercion, theft, tyranny
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Brother_Tempus posted:
force, coercion, theft, tyranny
Works for me!
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Yukishiro1 posted:
imaloon1 posted:
Further the hydrolysis idea that was supposed to basically make KRILLIONS of pounds of hydrogen from seawater hasn't panned out. It basically turns out to be about a 1.5 - 1.0 EROI which is worse than everything but Corn.
Which is what we pay people billions to use.
Couldn't agree more. It's a travesty of the highest order what we do with Corn...
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Brother_Tempus posted:
Sin_of_Onin posted:
Having a long term energy strategy is very important for the government and it has less to do with going green and more to do with long term economic efficiency.
The US has had the DOE pursue this for neatly forty years, it had failed and will continue to fail because it stupidly believes that government is smarter than the free market
It is time for the DOE to DIE
The US has faced 2 major energy crisis in its time and the free market not government solved both of them
It is time to kick government out of the energy market before it really breaks something
Dude, you're seriously a stupid phuck. The free market didn't solve anything but build stock options and making rich people even richer.
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Tych2 posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
Tych2 posted:
Politicians. They will get my wrath in the form of my not voting for them.
Politicians don't control gas prices.
Of course they can control it. Do you think the most powerful man in the world would just sit on his hands? They can set policy to discourage or encourage some types of activities. They choose not to.
Wait....wut?
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I am not sure what words you don't understand, but here...
http://dictionary.reference.com/
HTH
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The problem is the US has been built up in such a way that the cities are not well suited for public transportation. Not to mention the fact that the price differential between public transportation and taking your car is not big enough.
One area we should address IMO is the use of oil to heat homes. We should have a goal to switch over homes from oil to natural gas or electricity over the next couple decades. The conversion costs a lot so it would have to be subsidized. It is not a great option but it is easier than fixing transporation.
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Brother_Tempus posted:
Historically the US had had 2 major energy crisises, wood and whale oil. Both time the free market not government has solved the problem
Interestingly alcohol based fuels were the first replacement for expensive whale oil.
The civil war happened and the government slapped a big tax on alcohol to pay for things. This turned out to be a massive subsidy for the fledgeling oil industry.
The whaling industry took hold in Europe via quasi-government monopolies backed by the King/Queens navy. England got its whaling industry off the floor by taxing the hell out of imports.
Your free market magic genie is very slippery. Your two examples really disprove the point you are trying to make.
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SoBaKi posted:
Dude, you're seriously a stupid phuck. The free market didn't solve anything but build stock options and making rich people even richer.
Wait so capitalism actually works??! OH MY GOD THE TRAVESTY.
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SoBaKi posted:
Brother_Tempus posted:
Sin_of_Onin posted:
Having a long term energy strategy is very important for the government and it has less to do with going green and more to do with long term economic efficiency.
The US has had the DOE pursue this for neatly forty years, it had failed and will continue to fail because it stupidly believes that government is smarter than the free market
It is time for the DOE to DIE
The US has faced 2 major energy crisis in its time and the free market not government solved both of them
It is time to kick government out of the energy market before it really breaks something
Dude, you're seriously a stupid phuck. The free market didn't solve anything but build stock options and making rich people even richer.
read a history book and stop being so ignorant
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Tych2 posted:
I am not sure what words you don't understand, but here...
http://dictionary.reference.com/
HTH
It's not the words Tych2, it's how YOU'RE using them. Or not, as the case may be.
You ask for solutions, but no one, not even the rocket scientists, have a good answer. Oil has been up to this point, an extraordinarily efficient power source that pretty much every human being could utilize. It is going to be very difficult to replace it, but it MUST be replaced.
Politicians cannot dictate it's use, you know this.
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DemonicXH posted:
SoBaKi posted:
Dude, you're seriously a stupid phuck. The free market didn't solve anything but build stock options and making rich people even richer.
Wait so capitalism actually works??! OH MY GOD THE TRAVESTY.
Oops, yes, if that was the metric you want to measure.
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SoBaKi posted:
It is going to be very difficult to replace it, but it MUST be replaced.
I couldn't agree more.
SoBaKi posted:
Politicians cannot dictate it's use, you know this.
dictate the use of oil? What I would like the politicians to do is to stop being the world's police and use that money to research other forms of energy. That is something they can do 100%. They are the only ones that can do that.
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Tych2 posted:
SoBaKi posted:
Politicians cannot dictate it's use, you know this.
dictate the use of oil? What I would like the politicians to do is to stop being the world's police and use that money to research other forms of energy. That is something they can do 100%. They are the only ones that can do that.
I agree with you. However, if we give a wink and nod to the capitalists here, shouldn't industry also be doing that? I wonder how much R&D is spent by Exxon, considering the quarter after quarter after quarter of record profits they achieve.
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DemonicXH posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
The only really way to do that is to get people to use oil more efficiently or to get them off oil.
How do you get them to do that?
Well, it'll happen naturally as the price of oil continues to go up. Probably the best thing the government can do is give loans to promising alternative energy startups. But then you get solyndra.
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
The problem is the US has been built up in such a way that the cities are not well suited for public transportation. Not to mention the fact that the price differential between public transportation and taking your car is not big enough.
One area we should address IMO is the use of oil to heat homes. We should have a goal to switch over homes from oil to natural gas or electricity over the next couple decades. The conversion costs a lot so it would have to be subsidized. It is not a great option but it is easier than fixing transporation.
Should be a lot faster than that. It would have already been done mostly if we didn't pay subsidies to people to heat their homes with oil.
The energy secretary was totally right though that we should focus on getting people off oil and using it more efficiently rather than lowering the price of it. This is true whether or not you think there's any value to being "green." Lowering the price of oil isn't sustainable until we find a way to create new oil, and the price of oil is globally determined so anything we do is going to ultimately be insignificant as long as demand continues to increase in the developing world.
The US can't control the global price of oil but we can control how efficiently we use the oil we do buy and how much we rely on oil period.
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theredkay1 posted:
Brother_Tempus posted:
Historically the US had had 2 major energy crisises, wood and whale oil. Both time the free market not government has solved the problem
Interestingly
you posted unrelated data
Real simple for the statists here who are historically challenged. From the early days of the US till about the 1810s, Americans relied on wood.Then from the Early 1810s till the onset of the Civil War, whale oil, which cost about 25 cents a gallon at first replaced wood until it went up to about $10 a gallon.
Kerosene (by product on the new petroleum industry) replaced whale oil
2 crises averted by the free market not by some government policy or mandate.... Just simple supply/demand
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Yukishiro1 posted:
DemonicXH posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
The only really way to do that is to get people to use oil more efficiently or to get them off oil.
How do you get them to do that?
Well, it'll happen naturally as the price of oil continues to go up. Probably the best thing the government can do is give loans to promising alternative energy startups. But then you get solyndra.
Solyndra anyone?
government created busineses only last as long as government can steal for them
but as I answered.. Force, coercion, theft, tyranny
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Brother_Tempus posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
Well, it'll happen naturally as the price of oil continues to go up. Probably the best thing the government can do is give loans to promising alternative energy startups. But then you get solyndra.
Solyndra anyone?
government created busineses only last as long as government can steal for them
but as I answered.. Force, coercion, theft, tyranny
reading anyone?
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Brother_Tempus posted:
theredkay1 posted:
Brother_Tempus posted:
Historically the US had had 2 major energy crisises, wood and whale oil. Both time the free market not government has solved the problem
Interestingly
you posted unrelated data
Real simple for the statists here who are historically challenged. From the early days of the US till about the 1810s, Americans relied on wood.Then from the Early 1810s till the onset of the Civil War, whale oil, which cost about 25 cents a gallon at first replaced wood until it went up to about $10 a gallon.
Kerosene (by product on the new petroleum industry) replaced whale oil
2 crises averted by the free market not by some government policy or mandate.... Just simple supply/demand
/sigh
You do understand the difference in the economy of then and the economy of now, right? Guess what you could STILL do if you didn't want to use whale oil in 1810?
Burn wood.
Hell, you could do it now, but given the curren population of the world, we'd go through wood like we're GOING through oil.
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Brother_Tempus posted:
theredkay1 posted:
Brother_Tempus posted:
Historically the US had had 2 major energy crisises, wood and whale oil. Both time the free market not government has solved the problem
Interestingly (the government played a large role in the success of both whaling and early oil production)
you posted unrelated data
What the government did or didnt do with regard to the oil and whaling industry has nothing to do with this discussion.
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You really answered your own argument with BT Sweeny.
All he's saying is that as we used up one energy source we moved into another more efficient one and it was all based on supply and demand. If whales were as plentiful today as they were when we hunted them to near extinction it would have taken a lot longer for us to find the next step up.
The fact that oil has lasted a little over a century in depletion terms really shows us more about the imperative to find the next generation of energy creators that aren't based on oil because it's loss hasn't effectively been replaced yet, nor will it I envision until the pain of keeping it exceeds our ability to use it.
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DemonicXH
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Subject:
Chu: DOE not interested in lower gas prices, it wants to force us to 'go green'
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Yukishiro1 posted:
DemonicXH posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
The only really way to do that is to get people to use oil more efficiently or to get them off oil.
How do you get them to do that?
Well, it'll happen naturally as the price of oil continues to go up. Probably the best thing the government can do is give loans to promising alternative energy startups. But then you get solyndra.
Okay, that's a start but that still is a long term goal. What do you do to help the millions of people who are barely scraping by, today?
For instance, the thread last week about the woman in PA who is on SSDI and works part time but can't buy food or heat her home. How do we help that person? Alternative energy isn't going to do squat for her.
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Rosaria
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Subject:
Chu: DOE not interested in lower gas prices, it wants to force us to 'go green'
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Hey Imaloon, makes one pause to think, doesn't it.
Explosion destroys oil pipelines in Saudi Arabia's Awamiya
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imaloon1
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Chu: DOE not interested in lower gas prices, it wants to force us to 'go green'
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Hahaha oh man..... The pain it is coming
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B_Shinkicker
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Chu: DOE not interested in lower gas prices, it wants to force us to 'go green'
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Since oil is an inelastic utility, the only solution to higher gas prices is that you eat out less often. You go out to see fewer movies. You do less shopping. You know, all of those incredibly important things that our "consumption" based economy thrives on.
When you see consumer confidence and all of the restaurant indexes drop, you're seeing the solution to higher gas prices.
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imaloon1
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Chu: DOE not interested in lower gas prices, it wants to force us to 'go green'
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theredkay1 posted:
imaloon1 posted:
Yep the reactor ran for something like 25 THOUSAND hours at Lawrence Livermore I believe. They shut it down for no apparent reason and instead of going with the proven foolproof design they went instead with the massively over complicated Uranium light water reactors and we ended up with Fukushima, Chernobyl and Three Mile Island. Of which I barely count Three Mile Island but w/e...
I know it's old hat but the Chinese have recently invested a TON of money into Thorium tech.
Seems very conspiracy theorish to say that this program worked flawlessly 50 years ago...and in the 50 years since nobody on earth has picked up the project.
That's not conspiracy theory it's a goddamn fact, the reactor ran, the model was proven and we went with another more expensive less reliable more inherently dangerous method because you can't weaponize thorium so there was no sense in building two types ( I guess )
Moron...
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Yukishiro1
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Subject:
Chu: DOE not interested in lower gas prices, it wants to force us to 'go green'
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B_Shinkicker posted:
Since oil is an inelastic utility
No. It isn't. People are just too lazy to change their habits until the cost becomes greater.
If people go on using the same amount of gas they always have and keep paying higher prices that basically means the prices arn't too high.
You only think you can't control the amount of gas you consume because you've been taught since you were a baby that you can't control the amount of gas you consume.
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Brother_Tempus
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Subject:
Chu: DOE not interested in lower gas prices, it wants to force us to 'go green'
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Yukishiro1 posted:
B_Shinkicker posted:
Since oil is an inelastic utility
No. It isn't. People are just too lazy to change their habits until the cost becomes greater.
Why would people pay more for something when they can get it for less elsewhere?
Yuki shows that's this is about a small group of people who wrongly believe they know better than everyone else
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Lyken-P
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Chu: DOE not interested in lower gas prices, it wants to force us to 'go green'
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Bush raised and lowered gas prices when ever he wanted to... why can't Obama do the same?
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Brother_Tempus
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Chu: DOE not interested in lower gas prices, it wants to force us to 'go green'
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Lyken-P posted:
Bush raised and lowered gas prices when ever he wanted to... why can't Obama do the same?
2 wrongs don't make a right
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Yukishiro1
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Chu: DOE not interested in lower gas prices, it wants to force us to 'go green'
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Brother_Tempus posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
B_Shinkicker posted:
Since oil is an inelastic utility
No. It isn't. People are just too lazy to change their habits until the cost becomes greater.
Why would people pay more for something when they can get it for less elsewhere?
Where can you get gas for cheaper than you can get gas?
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Brother_Tempus
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Subject:
Chu: DOE not interested in lower gas prices, it wants to force us to 'go green'
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Brother_Tempus posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
[quote=B_Shinkicker]Since oil is an inelastic utility
No. It isn't. People are just too lazy to change their habits until the cost becomes greater.
Why would people pay more for something when they can get it for less elsewhere?
where can you get a substitute for gas that is cheaoer than gas? [/quote]
Fixed to correct Yuki's lack of reading comprehension
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Yukishiro1
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Chu: DOE not interested in lower gas prices, it wants to force us to 'go green'
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Uh I don't think it's me that has reading comprehension problems. I said you can control the amount of gas you use but people are just too lazy to do so at current prices. You responded with some random crap that had nothing to do with what I said and apparently actually agrees with me.
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Brother_Tempus
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Chu: DOE not interested in lower gas prices, it wants to force us to 'go green'
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Uh I don't think it's me that has reading comprehension problems.
Yes it is ....
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Kjarhall
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Chu: DOE not interested in lower gas prices, it wants to force us to 'go green'
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Brother_Tempus posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
B_Shinkicker posted:
Since oil is an inelastic utility
No. It isn't. People are just too lazy to change their habits until the cost becomes greater.
Why would people pay more for something when they can get it for less elsewhere?
People do it all the time, for a variety of reasons, including laziness. I'd bet you 've done it too.
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SoBaKi
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Chu: DOE not interested in lower gas prices, it wants to force us to 'go green'
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brother_tard posted:
Yep, pretty much every post. I feel sorry for your kids.
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theredkay1
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Subject:
Chu: DOE not interested in lower gas prices, it wants to force us to 'go green'
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Brother_Tempus posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
B_Shinkicker posted:
Since oil is an inelastic utility
No. It isn't. People are just too lazy to change their habits until the cost becomes greater.
Why would people pay more for something when they can get it for less elsewhere?
Yuki shows that's this is about a small group of people who wrongly believe they know better than everyone else
There is a small group of people who believe that prices influence behavior? Or there is only a small group of people who believe the price hurdle for oil that causes behavior responses is pretty high?
I guess we can argue about the size of that group of people...but actual real world events (price movements and the change in demand for oil) seem to indicate that Yuki does in fact know better than you.
There must be some topic where you try to tie your gut feelings to what is actually happening on the planet. This for example would be an easy one to check and conclude that Yuki is right.
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Tych2
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Chu: DOE not interested in lower gas prices, it wants to force us to 'go green'
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Brother_Tempus posted:
Yuki shows that's this is about a small group of people who wrongly believe they know better than everyone else
Wow again the irony is amazing.
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