Szerek
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European Football fans, I has a question.
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Ok, so I've been watching matches a few times a week for a month now. Football season is over, NCAA and NBA hoops totally blow goats these days. It more resembles a WWE match in the paint than the finesse game I grew up watching. I started watching hockey and soccer, but I'm finding soccer to be more interesting than I thought I'd find it.
This brings me to my question. I HATE drama queens in sports. Punters and kickers that do double back flips when someone brushes their jersey going by trying to draw a penalty pisses me off. In basketball they fall to the floor flailing their arms looking for a foul call. Soccer, however, takes this to an entirely new level and it is really the only drawback to the sport that I'm finding so far. Some times it is so bad it almost turns me off to the sport all together.
An example, I was watching match and a defender cleared the ball out of the box with an aggressive kick. He made contact about chest high and the other dude came in and looked like he was going to try a header to the net. Clearly at full speed from full zoom out he never hit him. After a delayed reaction (did I say it was obvious he never kicked the guy in the face) the dude threw himself to the ground and was flopping around and flailing like a dying fish. Play went on. The dude continued to flail while play transitioned to the other end of the field. When the camera panned back to the dude who was still rolling around on the field, you could see him stop, and peek to see if they had stopped play yet. This went on for about another 10 seconds until the guy popped straight up and ran down the field to contribute.
When they finally got around to the replay he missed the guy by like 3 feet, but from watching him you would think that he needed an ambulance. Why, in situations like this where they are CLEARLY fishing for a foul and possibly even a card, don't they card these guys for doing this crap?
I see injury faking (where there is 0 contact between players) at a minimum of twice a match. It really kills the flow of the game when they stop play for a kick to the face, ribs, etc that never happens. Knowing really nothing about the sport, is there any talk of eliminating this kind of crap or is it an accepted part of the game?
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Yukishiro1
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European Football fans, I has a question.
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Everyone bemoans it but there's not a lot you can do unless you introduce video footage.
People do get carded for diving, but only when the ref spots it and it's obvious. Usually you'll only see a card if someone dives in the penalty box.
One thing you have to remember if you watch soccer but never played it yourself is the view from above is totally different than the view from the pitch. The ref is down there with the players, not watching from 40 feet above at an ideal angle. It's extaordinarily hard to tell in a split second what's a dive and what isn't, when there may well be players blocking your line of sight, or when you may be 20 yards from the incident.
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Clackdor
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European Football fans, I has a question.
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Nobody watches NFL Europe.
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Taliesihne
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European Football fans, I has a question.
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Simulation is a card able offense. But 'flops' are part of the game, refs don't generally call them unless they are really obvious.
As far as flopping, what you are seeing is a combination of things....without knowing specifics I can't point you in one direction or the other. But generally speaking:
1) The success rate on penalty kicks in pro-leagues is insanely high (above 75%, I've heard as much as 95%). Flopping in the box to try and draw the PK is just part of the game - the reward is worth the risk as it's essentially a free goal
2) The game clock doesn't stop. Ever. The game only stops for injury. Sometimes flops are the only way to grab a minute to breathe and slow the pace of the game down. While the ref is checking on you, play stops. If it stops long enough, players can get some water, stretch, re-tie boots, etc. Again, strategic advantage (just not as big)
Also, remember that in pro soccer you only have 3 subs per game, injuries or no injuries. 90 minutes is a gd long time to run, you take breaks where you can find or force them.
3) Sometimes what's construed as a flop really isn't. They teach you at a very young age to 'go with the flow' on a tackle. If you are thrown forward by a tackle, a shove, etc., it's best to just keep moving in that direction.
If you want to get a good idea of how this can be so easily misunderstood - run as fast as you can, keeping control of a ball, and have someone take your legs out from under you...or even just shoulder you off the ball. See how well you keep your balance and how graceful you look when doing so.
Ps - Side bet - over\under on # of 'soccer sucks' posts?
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Szerek
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European Football fans, I has a question.
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Everyone bemoans it but there's not a lot you can do unless you introduce video footage.
People do get carded for diving, but only when the ref spots it and it's obvious. Usually you'll only see a card if someone dives in the penalty box.
One thing you have to remember if you watch soccer but never played it yourself is the view from above is totally different than the view from the pitch. The ref is down there with the players, not watching from 40 feet above at an ideal angle. It's extaordinarily hard to tell in a split second what's a dive and what isn't, when there may well be players blocking your line of sight, or when you may be 20 yards from the incident.
I see what you are saying, and I did play youth soccer from like 8 - 10 until I started Pop Warner football. The incident that I saw was so obviously blatant that the ref didn't stop play. He was fishing for whistle in the box. As I said, the dude was like 3 feet from the ball when the defender made contact. I just didn't know whether or not the ref could drop a card on someone in a situation like that. It would seem that if they could, and actually did it, that it wouldn't take long to clean up that kind of foul fishing.
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RHWarrior
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European Football fans, I has a question.
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It's an abnormal part of the game hated by most everyone.
Part of the problem is the head ref has to see everything and can't use video playback to judge, and only has some assistance from the two linesmen (ass. refs), plus the field is really large which makes it harder still to clearly see fouls.
There is always talk about changing rules to lessen this, on the other hand it's an old sport with alot of conservative forces opposing any rule change.
It's gotten to a very frustrating level these days, can skew a game or even ruin it in some cases imo.
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Yukishiro1
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European Football fans, I has a question.
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Blatant dives in the box are typically yellow carded. Although if the ref wants play to continue they wouldn't card the player then, they'd wait for play to stop and then go back and card them. Did you watch till play stopped to see if the player was restrospectively carded?
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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European Football fans, I has a question.
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"European Football"
There is no such.
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Tych2
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European Football fans, I has a question.
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The Patriots are playing in England this year. I hate that.
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Yukishiro1
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European Football fans, I has a question.
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Also, the rolling around is not necessarily all that bad. When you get your legs taken out running at full speed it makes complete sense to go into a roll. And when someone is sliding in at you, if you try to stand firm you will end up with a broken leg as often as not. There's a reason players react the way they do and it isn't 100% faking. Some of it is just smart physics.
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Taliesihne
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European Football fans, I has a question.
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Yeah, my wife gets terrified every time I do a full roll when my legs get swept.
I keep trying to explain to her it's safer, but w\e.
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Elocism
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European Football fans, I has a question.
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im decently into soccer these days, but defending these guys for being obvious flopping pussies is stupid
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Szerek
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European Football fans, I has a question.
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Taliesihne posted:
Ps - Side bet - over\under on # of 'soccer sucks' posts?
I'd say at least 5 or 6 with Badger leading the charge with a "grass hockey" comment.
I get what you were saying about tackling, and those I can understand. I've seen some fairly ugly face plants and have seen what generates a red card.  I've seen many "close, but no contact" injuries that have stopped play the would be impossible to see real time, but I've also seen a few that were so blatantly faked that I could hardly believe what I saw.
Like the last one in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ioyt2zzm530
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Szerek
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European Football fans, I has a question.
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Blatant dives in the box are typically yellow carded. Although if the ref wants play to continue they wouldn't card the player then, they'd wait for play to stop and then go back and card them. Did you watch till play stopped to see if the player was restrospectively carded?
Yeah, it played through, no card. After he realized play wasn't gonna stop he jumped up and sprinted down to the other end of the field to where play had transitioned.
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Yukishiro1
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European Football fans, I has a question.
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I don't think anyone is saying players don't flop. It's just that what is really flopping is often narrower than what people think is flopping. People who are used to watching american football often don't realize how different things are when you are going at people's feet with your feet instead of at their torso with your arms.
edit: P.S. You can see some of the players in that video getting carded for their flops. I'm sure a lot of the others were too and it just wasn't in the video.
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Szerek
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European Football fans, I has a question.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
"European Football"
There is no such.
Well, had I called it "football" then this thread would be filled with patriot comments, oh, wait.. never mind.
Maybe I should have used (soccer) or Non-American Football football fans, I as a question.
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Elocism
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European Football fans, I has a question.
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i went on a few dates with a Chinese chic
i was talking aboot football, and she was clearly confused. she was thinking of soccer
my next sentence was, 'oh, i am talking aboot American football. and that is the last time im going to qualify the word 'football'. that other sport is 'soccer''
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Yukishiro1
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European Football fans, I has a question.
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no wonder you are single
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Elocism
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European Football fans, I has a question.
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i ate chicken feet at that same sitting, so it evened out i think
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Yukishiro1
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European Football fans, I has a question.
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chicken feet are one of those things I don't really get. They arn't particularly tasty so why eat them if you don't have to?
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Taliesihne
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European Football fans, I has a question.
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Duh. TO GET LAID!
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Yukishiro1
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I think the important thing there is whether she eats the chicken, not whether you do.
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reesescups
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European Football fans, I has a question.
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Man United is the worst in the premier league for flopping and diving - a bunch of emo ass pussies...
La Liga and Serie A are two major leagues that are plagued with diving and flopping...
What I hate is watching a game in Champions league one team from a fast hard hitting league, and one team for a slow don't hit me bro league... It's painful
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Yukishiro1
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European Football fans, I has a question.
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Bale had a shameless dive in the Tottenham-Arsenal game.
It's funny. Arsenal is always accused of being a team of weaklings but they don't flop as shamelessly as a lot of other teams.
Also the EPL is very xenophobic when it comes to floppers. Foreign players get crucified for things that arn't even dives, but whenever a British player dives the commentators always describe it as "going down easily" or "anticipating the contact." 
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Manegarm
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I hate people who take dives..
winning by any means, just the nature of the game.
I believe it should be fixed with another referee that has a birds eye view, then again it adds a element to the game which makes it a bit more interesting.
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smellymotor
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European Football fans, I has a question.
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the worst floppers are the middle eastern teams. granted its part of their game since they play in scorching conditions and need a rest but when you see them do it on a 22 degree evening away from home it gets a little old.
Australia V Saudi tonight! world cup qualifier. im heading to the stadium after work, should be good fun
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Sansfear
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European Football fans, I has a question.
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Manegarm posted:
I believe it should be fixed with another referee that has a birds eye view, then again it adds a element to the game which makes it a bit more interesting.
This. Add someone in the booth with access to video who can inform the on-field ref quickly with what happened.
They should also consider post-game yellow/red cards for blatant flopping that isn't picked up at the time.
Anything that reduces flopping would help the game. It is detestable that deliberate cheating is rewarded to the extent it is in soccer.
(and yes, I know it happens in other sports as well, but soccer is the worst). The players are even proud of their cheating (remember the 'hand of God'? That guy became a national hero even after admitting that he cheated to win).
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Sansfear
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Oh, and:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4ZY9sJe0rY
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reesescups
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Sansfear posted:
They should also consider post-game yellow/red cards for blatant flopping that isn't picked up at the time.
100% agree with this...
I can totally appreciate not wanting to interfere with the play and flow of the game. And I am completely understand that the refs can't see everything 100% of the time. But after the game, there is an official review - this already happens and the refs get graded on their performance. Which means someone is looking at what really happened...
WTF aren't there post game corrections to cards, discipline etc???
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Taliesihne
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The way to deal with this is not actually post game cards.
It's post game fines.
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Yukishiro1
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European Football fans, I has a question.
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Sansfear posted:
They should also consider post-game yellow/red cards for blatant flopping that isn't picked up at the time.
This is the best solution. There is already precedent because they issue retrospective red cards for violent conduct the ref doesn't catch.
I don't see why they can't do the same for dives. I can see why refs are super hesitent to give out yellow cards for diving based on a split-second reaction. But there's no reason they can't go back after the game and look at the replays 15 times from different angles and decide to issue a retrospective yellow based on what they see. Although a retrospective yellow isn't that much of a punishment for most strikers.
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Yukishiro1
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Taliesihne posted:
The way to deal with this is not actually post game cards.
It's post game fines.
This is an option too. I don't know if it would be legal based on their current contracts, though.
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reesescups
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European Football fans, I has a question.
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Taliesihne posted:
The way to deal with this is not actually post game cards.
It's post game fines.
That works too
But I still there the after card card review should be more than to review ban length for red cards... If they review a game and someone intentionally dove, they should receive a yellow card. And that yellow card should count towards their yellow card tally.
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Taliesihne
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Post game red cards would be problematic.
Fines would be 'easier' to do. You would only be fighting the players and not the players, management and the refs.
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Tych2
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Fines never work. NFL and MBA have proven that. Suspend people from games and you see what happens.
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Yukishiro1
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European Football fans, I has a question.
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Taliesihne posted:
Post game red cards would be problematic.
Fines would be 'easier' to do. You would only be fighting the players and not the players, management and the refs.
Reds are too harsh. But I don't see why you couldn't issue post-game yellows. Even though a yellow card isn't much of a punishment for your average striker, if nothing else it would have a shaming effect. Right now players rationalize flopping because nothing really happens to them so they figure that means it's ok.
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Szerek
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Subject:
European Football fans, I has a question.
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Taliesihne posted:
Post game red cards would be problematic.
Fines would be 'easier' to do. You would only be fighting the players and not the players, management and the refs.
Reds are too harsh. But I don't see why you couldn't issue post-game yellows. Even though a yellow card isn't much of a punishment for your average striker, if nothing else it would have a shaming effect. Right now players rationalize flopping because nothing really happens to them so they figure that means it's ok.
I would be cool with post game yellows. Some dude takes 3 fake dives during the game he gets 3 more yellows + whatever he earned during the game. I'd say to go as far as to count them as earned during the game. This way if some dude gets two he gets an automatic red. That would put an end to it real quick I think. It would be easy for a player to earn a multi game suspension quickly for douchy behaviour.
A $5,000 - $30,000 fine does nothing to the player making millions a year, but to the guy making a hundred thousand or so it would hurt too much.
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Mastara
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Subject:
European Football fans, I has a question.
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European football? Are you serious? Do they smoke and play? Is the field inverted? The 0 yard line in the middle?
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reesescups
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Subject:
European Football fans, I has a question.
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Mastara posted:
European football? Are you serious? Do they smoke and play? Is the field inverted? The 0 yard line in the middle?
Look it up yourself - I'm sure it's somewhere in that bible of yours, just use a different decoder ring osmthing if ya got to.
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Yukishiro1
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Subject:
European Football fans, I has a question.
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Jesus played for Maccabi Tel Aviv.
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smellymotor
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Subject:
European Football fans, I has a question.
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the national Australian rules footbal league (AFL) here has a system which isnt perfect but i think could be useful in soccer.
a match review panel decided on certain things after the match. i'm not even sure if you can get sent off in Aussie rules but you get reported and can be suspended from play for a certain amount of matches. Its like a hearing where they bring in the player to defend himself, the opposition players etc and review footage.
there is a points based systen for working out punishment ie first offence vs serial offender or early guilty plea can reduce your punishment etc
the panel is made up of ex-players/coaches and refs
something like that could be done in soccer i reckon
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