levgre
Posts:
25,822
Registered:
Oct 24, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 25,076
User ID: 479,056
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
I think the world would be split up into small territories, controlled by warlords or smaller gangs. There would be a few peaceful areas, like colder climates where the people are more focused on survival.
Although eventually some warlords would develop guns and maybe even tanks (probably 3000 AD or later), they'd fortunately never gain nuclear weaponry.
-----signature-----
<(o.O)> <(o.O<) (>o.O)> (>o.O<)<(''<) <( ' ' )> (>'')>
|
|
Link to this post
|
ikkoikki
Posts:
13,961
Registered:
Feb 8, '09
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 13,960
User ID: 1,347,614
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
|
Yeah, people would be much more physically fit and ruthless by nature imo. There's no way there'd be this many soft, overweight people walking about.
-----signature-----
Chicago Bulls: 43-13
post game gem from Joakim Noah: "We cannot play with our heads down and have a poo poo face. Sometimes we have a poo poo face."
|
|
Link to this post
|
-Abysmal-
Posts:
21,891
Registered:
Dec 20, '00
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 21,218
User ID: 59,638
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
a small territory controlled by a warlord...wait a second...what would that be?
sounds like a Dictator to me...OR otherwise known as a form of GOVERNMENT!
-----signature-----
Now i LIVESTRONG GO PATRIOTS Yankees SUCK!  I wish AC looked better, I miss it  I love you forever Jamie
|
|
Link to this post
|
Brother_Tempus
Title: Patriot
Posts:
48,624
Registered:
Jan 9, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 48,310
User ID: 61,868
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
-Abysmal- posted:
a small territory controlled by a warlord...wait a second...what would that be?
sounds like a Dictator to me...OR otherwise known as a form of GOVERNMENT!
think rural areas of Spain during the Spanish Civil War
-----signature-----
You win ACF, dude - Osmenthe
BT is usually right - Onslaught
i think we need more BT on page 1 - FighterUSAF
Yep, BT is right - Aerlinthian
Got guns & ammo? Food? Precious metals?
|
|
Link to this post
|
levgre
Posts:
25,822
Registered:
Oct 24, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 25,076
User ID: 479,056
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
-Abysmal- posted:
a small territory controlled by a warlord...wait a second...what would that be?
sounds like a Dictator to me...OR otherwise known as a form of GOVERNMENT!
Nah the way I'm thinking of warlord is basically a larger gang, like in between actual organized crime (mafia) and a street gang. How warlords exist/ed in Afghanistan and Africa. They steal and rape, but do not organize the population or care how people run their lives (as long as they don't fight back).
Governments are by definition typically larger and more complex.
-----signature-----
<(o.O)> <(o.O<) (>o.O)> (>o.O<)<(''<) <( ' ' )> (>'')>
|
|
Link to this post
|
ikkoikki
Posts:
13,961
Registered:
Feb 8, '09
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 13,960
User ID: 1,347,614
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
Any warlord would have some sort of power structure though. I don't see much difference between a warlord and a mafia don.
The mafia is full of complex rules but they're rules that mafia members themselves rarely seem to follow...
-----signature-----
Chicago Bulls: 43-13
post game gem from Joakim Noah: "We cannot play with our heads down and have a poo poo face. Sometimes we have a poo poo face."
|
|
Link to this post
|
Aerlinthian
Posts:
66,222
Registered:
May 7, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 65,491
User ID: 94,919
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
ikkoikki posted:
The mafia is full of complex rules but they're rules that mafia members themselves rarely seem to follow...
That sounds familiar 
-----signature-----
(none)
|
|
Link to this post
|
levgre
Posts:
25,822
Registered:
Oct 24, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 25,076
User ID: 479,056
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
ikkoikki posted:
Any warlord would have some sort of power structure though. I don't see much difference between a warlord and a mafia don.
The mafia is full of complex rules but they're rules that mafia members themselves rarely seem to follow...
A power structure doesn't = government, though. Even packs of dogs have power structures, and apes have large tribal wars. Governments are uniquely human and have a more complex level of organization/coordination.
Mafias get close to governments in some respects. Except their focus is too specific on the accumulation of wealth, by leeching off the wealth first created by society.
Of course BT calls the US government a mafia, but the mafias' activities are only comparable to like a couple departments when the US gov has over 300 departments.
-----signature-----
<(o.O)> <(o.O<) (>o.O)> (>o.O<)<(''<) <( ' ' )> (>'')>
|
|
Link to this post
|
ikkoikki
Posts:
13,961
Registered:
Feb 8, '09
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 13,960
User ID: 1,347,614
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
|
I always think any sort of organization that creates a societal order can be considered a government. There will be order under any sort of warlord, gang, drug cartel, mob, mafia...etc. It may not be rule of law and order in the sense we consider to be good and just, but it is still order. If you join the group or at the very least don't stand in its way, you will live and may even prosper. That's societal order.
-----signature-----
Chicago Bulls: 43-13
post game gem from Joakim Noah: "We cannot play with our heads down and have a poo poo face. Sometimes we have a poo poo face."
|
|
Link to this post
|
levgre
Posts:
25,822
Registered:
Oct 24, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 25,076
User ID: 479,056
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
Well you are free to have your own definition, and there is 'some' grey area, I'm just going by the general definitions/categorization.
In academics etc., governments are separate from war bands, gangs, and organized crime. The question is what the world would be like if humans never coordinated past that level. No countries, no federations, no city-states, so on.
-----signature-----
<(o.O)> <(o.O<) (>o.O)> (>o.O<)<(''<) <( ' ' )> (>'')>
|
|
Link to this post
|
Arc_DT
Title: Mithan said I am smart
Posts:
11,647
Registered:
May 28, '02
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 11,518
User ID: 683,353
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
levgre posted:
A power structure doesn't = government, though. Even packs of dogs have power structures, and apes have large tribal wars. Governments are uniquely human and have a more complex level of organization/coordination.
Mafias get close to governments in some respects. Except their focus is too specific on the accumulation of wealth, by leeching off the wealth first created by society.
Of course BT calls the US government a mafia, but the mafias' activities are only comparable to like a couple departments when the US gov has over 300 departments.
If you're having trouble defining the difference between "X" and "government," that's probably because X==government. There's nothing magical or mythical about government. Government IS a power structure. The mafia doesn't often get described as "government" as they're generally defined as opposing the official government, but if they have the power to make and enforce rules... they're a government.
-----signature-----
"... We just need a president to sign this stuff... Pick a Republican with enough working digits to handle a pen to become president."
-Grover Norquist
.
MICHIGAN - Where the trees are the right height!
|
|
Link to this post
|
Arc_DT
Title: Mithan said I am smart
Posts:
11,647
Registered:
May 28, '02
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 11,518
User ID: 683,353
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
|
And with that, we'd all be dead, because we can't group without some form of power structure, and we're not going to survive the wild without grouping.
-----signature-----
"... We just need a president to sign this stuff... Pick a Republican with enough working digits to handle a pen to become president."
-Grover Norquist
.
MICHIGAN - Where the trees are the right height!
|
|
Link to this post
|
BritonGuy
Title: Serious Business
Posts:
45,939
Registered:
Mar 4, '04
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 45,256
User ID: 901,272
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
|
Oh look a semantics thread.
-----signature-----
Briton Guy...persnickety...NEVER! -Murron (truly) Hawkson is the greatest. -Hawkson Britonguy is usually right. -Onslaught on BT “Do or do not... there is no try.†- Yodazami Do you expect me to remember what I put in my mouth? -NSMachi
|
|
Link to this post
|
levgre
Posts:
25,822
Registered:
Oct 24, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 25,076
User ID: 479,056
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
Arc_DT posted:
levgre posted:
A power structure doesn't = government, though. Even packs of dogs have power structures, and apes have large tribal wars. Governments are uniquely human and have a more complex level of organization/coordination.
Mafias get close to governments in some respects. Except their focus is too specific on the accumulation of wealth, by leeching off the wealth first created by society.
Of course BT calls the US government a mafia, but the mafias' activities are only comparable to like a couple departments when the US gov has over 300 departments.
If you're having trouble defining the difference between "X" and "government," that's probably because X==government. There's nothing magical or mythical about government. Government IS a power structure. The mafia doesn't often get described as "government" as they're generally defined as opposing the official government, but if they have the power to make and enforce rules... they're a government.
I wasn't having trouble, the issue was I was making stretches aligning a Mafia with a government. Not separating the two.
Did I once say anything magical/mythical about government? Nope. There are definite differences between simple tribal/pack/power structures and an actual government. This should be apparent to any student of history. It is largely a matter of intent, what a certain group of people are trying to accomplish, and on what scale.
-----signature-----
<(o.O)> <(o.O<) (>o.O)> (>o.O<)<(''<) <( ' ' )> (>'')>
|
|
Link to this post
|
-Abysmal-
Posts:
21,891
Registered:
Dec 20, '00
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 21,218
User ID: 59,638
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
guess you should have been much clearer in you question.
should have specified large complex governments as we know them today.
Warlords have a position of authority and govern those in their region.
-----signature-----
Now i LIVESTRONG GO PATRIOTS Yankees SUCK! I wish AC looked better, I miss it I love you forever Jamie
|
|
Link to this post
|
Sith_Mauler
Posts:
24,642
Registered:
Dec 21, '02
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 24,438
User ID: 750,977
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
human nature forms governments, you have natural born leaders(what I mean is charisma, the ability to get people to follow you) and
then you have the sheeple.
humans have a herd mentality, even the most primitive peoples know to form tribes for survival.
-----signature-----
Well I ain't first class
But I ain't white trash
I'm wild and a little crazy too
I have seen a lot of things in my life time.
That is why I walk the line I walk.
|
|
Link to this post
|
levgre
Posts:
25,822
Registered:
Oct 24, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 25,076
User ID: 479,056
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
-Abysmal- posted:
guess you should have been much clearer in you question.
should have specified large complex governments as we know them today.
Warlords have a position of authority and govern those in their region.
Except governments aren't at all just the complex governments as we know them today... that's just dumb. They can be as small/simple as a native American tribe, but still these elders/councils are actually in a governing role for many aspects of the community and their daily lives. They create what is actually a human concept, separate from the primal social organization that humans/animals alike evolved into.
Warlords have very little capacity (or concern, rather) for governing or being involved with the community/people. They don't organize nor direct them. They just take what they want, because no one can stop them. It is very much like the relationship between a pride of lions and the lesser animals whom they take kills from.
-----signature-----
<(o.O)> <(o.O<) (>o.O)> (>o.O<)<(''<) <( ' ' )> (>'')>
|
|
Link to this post
|
Sith_Mauler
Posts:
24,642
Registered:
Dec 21, '02
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 24,438
User ID: 750,977
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
levgre posted:
-Abysmal- posted:
guess you should have been much clearer in you question.
should have specified large complex governments as we know them today.
Warlords have a position of authority and govern those in their region.
Except governments aren't at all just the complex governments as we know them today... that's just dumb. They can be as small/simple as a native American tribe, but still these elders/councils are actually in a governing role for many aspects of the community and their daily lives.
Warlords have very little capacity (or concern, rather) for governing or being involved with the community/people. They don't organize nor direct them. They just take what they want, because no one can stop them.
since when is caring about the community&people a requirement for government?
example: turn on the news
-----signature-----
Well I ain't first class
But I ain't white trash
I'm wild and a little crazy too
I have seen a lot of things in my life time.
That is why I walk the line I walk.
|
|
Link to this post
|
levgre
Posts:
25,822
Registered:
Oct 24, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 25,076
User ID: 479,056
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
Sith_Mauler posted:
levgre posted:
-Abysmal- posted:
guess you should have been much clearer in you question.
should have specified large complex governments as we know them today.
Warlords have a position of authority and govern those in their region.
Except governments aren't at all just the complex governments as we know them today... that's just dumb. They can be as small/simple as a native American tribe, but still these elders/councils are actually in a governing role for many aspects of the community and their daily lives.
Warlords have very little capacity (or concern, rather) for governing or being involved with the community/people. They don't organize nor direct them. They just take what they want, because no one can stop them.
since when is caring about the community&people a requirement for government?
example: turn on the news
Caring doesn't just mean 'positive' intentions, it can also just mean interest/concern. Most of the crappy governments you see on the news still try to nurture their economy, enforce social policies, etc., even if just to ultimately sustain their own position of power and wealth.
-----signature-----
<(o.O)> <(o.O<) (>o.O)> (>o.O<)<(''<) <( ' ' )> (>'')>
|
|
Link to this post
|
-Mithan-
Title: VNBoard Admin
Posts:
1,000,060,379
Registered:
Mar 1, '00
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 56,880
User ID: 13,156
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
Big Men running things, lots of violence, majority of people at the bottom doing the will of those at the top, etc, etc.
Slavery, serfdom, all that nice crap we have had throughout history where the controlling elite are privileged and everybody else is screwed.
Basically, the same thing we have had throughout history.
-----signature-----
I survived to the end and got nothing out of it, but hey.
|
|
Link to this post
|
-Abysmal-
Posts:
21,891
Registered:
Dec 20, '00
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 21,218
User ID: 59,638
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
so what exactly are you looking for levgre?
BTW...Warlords DO have structure, and while generally they rule through violence, they DO enforce their ways.
it's not just one guy in power of nothing, otherwise there would be no point.
-----signature-----
Now i LIVESTRONG GO PATRIOTS Yankees SUCK! I wish AC looked better, I miss it I love you forever Jamie
|
|
Link to this post
|
levgre
Posts:
25,822
Registered:
Oct 24, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 25,076
User ID: 479,056
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
-Abysmal- posted:
BTW...Warlords DO have structure, and while generally they rule through violence, they DO enforce their ways.
I never said they don't have structure. But Hyena packs have structure too. They don't form governments. By government I simply was referring to the various more advanced, larger levels of organization that have existed throughout history, and are actually defined as governments. I don't define a small bands people who pretty much only wave guns and steal food as governments, but if you want to, you can.
We could keep this simpler and cut the line off at the actual early countries, so if the first 'small kingdoms' had never been formed. If humans never organized beyond small tribes.
A Brief History of Government
"The first civilization began in the city states of Egypt, Mesopotamia, India, China, Mexico, and other places where small communities spawned kingdoms. We can trace the history of this culture in the wars fought between kingdoms and between nomadic barbarians and the settled communities. China and India brought forth political dynasties that had little contact with the outside world except when nomadic groups threatened them from the Asian steppe (or when a “civilized†conqueror such as Alexander the Great invaded northern India). The empires formed in Mexico and Peru were also largely self-confined. The Middle East is another story. Here political dynasties arose in Mesopotamia, Turkey, Egypt, Persia, Greece, and Italy which fought other kingdoms for control of the civilized world. The story of this civilization is the story of the rise and fall of kingdoms striving to become an empire which controls a territory containing many different peoples."
-----signature-----
<(o.O)> <(o.O<) (>o.O)> (>o.O<)<(''<) <( ' ' )> (>'')>
|
|
Link to this post
|
-Abysmal-
Posts:
21,891
Registered:
Dec 20, '00
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 21,218
User ID: 59,638
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
couldn't you have just started there to begin with?
you acknowledged above that small indian tribes would be a government but now you want to ignore them too?
plus you also said governments weren't all complex, but now you want to only focus on advanced/large ones?
-----signature-----
Now i LIVESTRONG GO PATRIOTS Yankees SUCK! I wish AC looked better, I miss it I love you forever Jamie
|
|
Link to this post
|
levgre
Posts:
25,822
Registered:
Oct 24, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 25,076
User ID: 479,056
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
-Abysmal- posted:
couldn't you have just started there to begin with?
you acknowledged above that small indian tribes would be a government but now you want to ignore them too?
plus you also said governments weren't all complex, but now you want to only focus on advanced/large ones?
I'm not ignoring small Tribes, I'm just making it easier for you. You disagreed with my definition that excluded many warlords, so I set a line in the sand for the evolution of government.
The early kingdoms were not large/advanced at all. I said cut off the advancement before they expanded beyond individual settlements into larger, defined states.
-----signature-----
<(o.O)> <(o.O<) (>o.O)> (>o.O<)<(''<) <( ' ' )> (>'')>
|
|
Link to this post
|
Ah-Schoo
Title: Fuzzy Caterpillar of Friendliness
Posts:
71,317
Registered:
Aug 11, '00
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 68,974
User ID: 39,247
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
levgre posted:
B_T bait.
Mission accomplished!
-----signature-----
.
Opinion = fact. Anecdote = proof. Political label more important than either of those.
Welcome to ACF, where debate goes to die.
.
"fascist totalitarian secular progressive Zionist intellectually challenged Christian puppets." - Aerlinthina
|
|
Link to this post
|
levgre
Posts:
25,822
Registered:
Oct 24, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 25,076
User ID: 479,056
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
|
Yeah I didn't get too much BT though... one post at least, so I know he read it.
-----signature-----
<(o.O)> <(o.O<) (>o.O)> (>o.O<)<(''<) <( ' ' )> (>'')>
|
|
Link to this post
|
Ah-Schoo
Title: Fuzzy Caterpillar of Friendliness
Posts:
71,317
Registered:
Aug 11, '00
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 68,974
User ID: 39,247
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
He's probably too busy trying to defend drunk driving, no doubt that's hard work.
-----signature-----
.
Opinion = fact. Anecdote = proof. Political label more important than either of those.
Welcome to ACF, where debate goes to die.
.
"fascist totalitarian secular progressive Zionist intellectually challenged Christian puppets." - Aerlinthina
|
|
Link to this post
|
-Abysmal-
Posts:
21,891
Registered:
Dec 20, '00
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 21,218
User ID: 59,638
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
dont simplify it for my purposes...simplify it for your own.
way above you said there is a difference between governments and tribals...then you say tribals are governments. WTF? 
-----signature-----
Now i LIVESTRONG GO PATRIOTS Yankees SUCK! I wish AC looked better, I miss it I love you forever Jamie
|
|
Link to this post
|
Reapist
Title: Official ACF HIOFI Poster
Posts:
74,991
Registered:
Dec 20, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 74,235
User ID: 559,475
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
|
If there are only 2 people there will be some form of government and there will be rules.
-----signature-----
pkhere: Jebus sometimes you make my arse tired.
Referring to illegal aliens as 'immigrants' is the same as referring to shoplifters as 'shoppers' - Dorvinion
I'd feel bad for Satriani but he got himself into it. - allmightybob_MLF
|
|
Link to this post
|
levgre
Posts:
25,822
Registered:
Oct 24, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 25,076
User ID: 479,056
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
-Abysmal- posted:
way above you said there is a difference between governments and tribals...then you say tribals are governments. WTF?
This is because tribal social organizations are not as simple as you think, they lie on a wide spectrum. I just said that simpler ones are not governments. Even apes form tribes.
-----signature-----
<(o.O)> <(o.O<) (>o.O)> (>o.O<)<(''<) <( ' ' )> (>'')>
|
|
Link to this post
|
-Abysmal-
Posts:
21,891
Registered:
Dec 20, '00
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 21,218
User ID: 59,638
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
the only thing you HAVE made clear, is that we are talking about people so i dont know why you referenced and animal yet again.
funny how now tribals were considered above as simple but now they are *not that simple*.
-----signature-----
Now i LIVESTRONG GO PATRIOTS Yankees SUCK! I wish AC looked better, I miss it I love you forever Jamie
|
|
Link to this post
|
NeoKarnak
Posts:
3,788
Registered:
Dec 21, '09
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 3,786
User ID: 1,379,922
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
|
A government is when rules for society are laid down. This happens besically when a group forms. Yes, even apes can form governments. A tribal organization is a government, so it counts.
-----signature-----
When was the last time you were honest with yourself?
|
|
Link to this post
|
jeune
Posts:
5,335
Registered:
May 29, '05
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 5,311
User ID: 1,052,881
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
|
We are social creatures who strive for stability... I honestly think that warlords/tyrants/etc would topple and govt formed to prevent it from happening again. That is what has happened throughout history... when govt turns into tyrants people find a new power structure.
-----signature-----
"Whenever the white man treats the Indian as they treat each other then we shall have no more wars. We shall be all alike — brothers of one father and mother, with one sky above us and one country around us and one government for all."
|
|
Link to this post
|
levgre
Posts:
25,822
Registered:
Oct 24, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 25,076
User ID: 479,056
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
Because some human tribes are simply organizing on a similar level to animals. That is why I reference animals. Many warlords also are close to just behaving in a primal/animalistic manner.
I don't know at all how you got that I said all tribes are "not that simple". You referenced that I referenced way above in the thread that some tribes (i.e. Native American tribes) form governing bodies and are quite complex.
Ok, enough attention for your trolling in my troll thread. You kind of self-trolled with some of that inanity, though.
NeoKarnak posted:
A government is when rules for society are laid down. This happens besically when a group forms. Yes, even apes can form governments. A tribal organization is a government, so it counts.
I think your definition is quite off if you think Apes form governments. You need to read up some some on why the word "government" was actually created, and what it is meant to label.
You also need to study ape behavior a bit more, they do not 'lay down' rules. Their level of justice/law is evolutionary/genetic, innate in their minds. The most you see is them applying those simple rules in tactful ways.
-----signature-----
<(o.O)> <(o.O<) (>o.O)> (>o.O<)<(''<) <( ' ' )> (>'')>
|
|
Link to this post
|
jeune
Posts:
5,335
Registered:
May 29, '05
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 5,311
User ID: 1,052,881
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
Also I do not understand where everyone is getting the idea that tribal forms of governance were "simple"... most that I have studied are VERY complex... with many checks and balances and roles and responsibilities for all people... they actually even make the current U.S. structure look pretty "simple". Heck the U.S. has even passed a bill exulting tribal governance.
http://www.woodlandindianedu.com/images/Congressional.pdf
SENATE CONCURRENT RESOLUTION 76
"Whereas, the original framers of the constitution, including most notably, George Washington and Benjamin Franklin, are known to have greatly admired the concepts, principles and government practices of the Six Nations of the Iroquois Confederacy; and
Whereas, the Confederation of the original thirteen colonies into one Republic was explicitly modeled upon the Iroquois Confederacy as were many of the democratic principles which were incorporated into the Constitution itself;...
1) The Congress, on the occasion of the 200th anniversary of the signing of the United States Constitution, acknowledges the historical debt which this Republic of the United States of America owes to the Iroquois Confederacy and other Indian Nations for their demonstration of enlightened, democratic principles of government and their example of a free association of independent Indian Nations;..."
-----signature-----
"Whenever the white man treats the Indian as they treat each other then we shall have no more wars. We shall be all alike — brothers of one father and mother, with one sky above us and one country around us and one government for all."
|
|
Link to this post
|
-Abysmal-
Posts:
21,891
Registered:
Dec 20, '00
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 21,218
User ID: 59,638
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
levgre posted:
I don't know at all how you got that I said all tribes are "not that simple".
levgre posted:
This is because tribal social organizations are not as simple as you think
i know you paid no attention to what you were writing in the OP, but god damn, try a little to follow you own thought process...and i am using that term VERY loosely!
next time you try to troll at least TRY to stay consistent and focused...otherwise it ends up like this thread really doesn't make any sense at all.
-----signature-----
Now i LIVESTRONG GO PATRIOTS Yankees SUCK! I wish AC looked better, I miss it I love you forever Jamie
|
|
Link to this post
|
Hawkson
Title: I AM AN ASSASSIN (SHH)
Posts:
30,565
Registered:
Oct 23, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 30,208
User ID: 478,685
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
-----signature-----
Hawkson, Esq.
Nothing is true, everything is permitted.
|
|
Link to this post
|
levgre
Posts:
25,822
Registered:
Oct 24, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 25,076
User ID: 479,056
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
-Abysmal- posted:
levgre posted:
I don't know at all how you got that I said all tribes are "not that simple".
levgre posted:
This is because tribal social organizations are not as simple as you think
i know you paid no attention to what you were writing in the OP, but god damn, try a little to follow you own thought process...and i am using that term VERY loosely!
next time you try to troll at least TRY to stay consistent and focused...otherwise it ends up like this thread really doesn't make any sense at all.
This is because you didn't actually read the post but latch onto immaterial points by reading excessively into one word.
As to here, you are misinterpreting the 2nd line as somehow stating that all tribal organizations are complex, and correctly interpreting the first as stating some tribes are complex. Obviously that would be a logical contradiction.
However if you actually continue reading what you quoted second, the meaning is made obvious even to the most dull/obtuse. I was talking about tribal organizations as a concept, and stated "they lie on a wide spectrum. I just said that simpler ones are not governments."
Come on, if you are going to troll, be a bit more clever than a simple semantics Nazi conjuring something up from such a "minor"(non-existent) inconsistency between separate posts made over the course of 5 hours.
-----signature-----
<(o.O)> <(o.O<) (>o.O)> (>o.O<)<(''<) <( ' ' )> (>'')>
|
|
Link to this post
|
-Abysmal-
Posts:
21,891
Registered:
Dec 20, '00
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 21,218
User ID: 59,638
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
levgre posted:
-Abysmal- posted:
levgre posted:
I don't know at all how you got that I said all tribes are "not that simple".
levgre posted:
This is because tribal social organizations are not as simple as you think
i know you paid no attention to what you were writing in the OP, but god damn, try a little to follow you own thought process...and i am using that term VERY loosely!
next time you try to troll at least TRY to stay consistent and focused...otherwise it ends up like this thread really doesn't make any sense at all.
This is because you didn't actually read the post but latch onto immaterial points by reading excessively into one word.
As to here, you are misinterpreting the 2nd line as somehow stating that all tribal organizations are complex, and correctly interpreting the first as stating some tribes are complex. Obviously that would be a logical contradiction.
However if you actually continue reading what you quoted second, the meaning is made obvious even to the most dull/obtuse. I was talking about tribal organizations as a concept, and stated "they lie on a wide spectrum. I just said that simpler ones are not governments."
Come on, if you are going to troll, be a bit more clever than a simple semantics Nazi conjuring something up from such a "minor"(non-existent) inconsistency between separate posts made over the course of 5 hours.
and you kept going and going with many of my blatantly obvious *misinterpretations* and snipping of context. 
but still...the OP is quite different from where you took all of this.
the ruling out of warlords is also quite lame, and many *gangs* have/had structures that investigating agencies still can not decipher and those dont just appear based on current times either.
-----signature-----
Now i LIVESTRONG GO PATRIOTS Yankees SUCK! I wish AC looked better, I miss it I love you forever Jamie
|
|
Link to this post
|
NeoKarnak
Posts:
3,788
Registered:
Dec 21, '09
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 3,786
User ID: 1,379,922
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
levgre posted:
Because some human tribes are simply organizing on a similar level to animals. That is why I reference animals. Many warlords also are close to just behaving in a primal/animalistic manner.
I don't know at all how you got that I said all tribes are "not that simple". You referenced that I referenced way above in the thread that some tribes (i.e. Native American tribes) form governing bodies and are quite complex.
Ok, enough attention for your trolling in my troll thread. You kind of self-trolled with some of that inanity, though.
NeoKarnak posted:
A government is when rules for society are laid down. This happens besically when a group forms. Yes, even apes can form governments. A tribal organization is a government, so it counts.
I think your definition is quite off if you think Apes form governments. You need to read up some some on why the word "government" was actually created, and what it is meant to label.
You also need to study ape behavior a bit more, they do not 'lay down' rules. Their level of justice/law is evolutionary/genetic, innate in their minds. The most you see is them applying those simple rules in tactful ways.
You don't think the alpha male "lays down" rules in the group (even if it is innate)? If there is a violation of what he deems appropriate, there are repecussions. Now, if you want to omit non-humans from the discussion, that's fine (since we would probably have to talk about ants, termites and bees as well). But the word govern means to impose regulations that influence the behavior of a group. Humans, being what they are, will form governments out of necessity to achieve some kind of security and consistent progress.
Therefore, it is inevitable that governments form. To eliminate them completely would take a DNA alteration.
-----signature-----
When was the last time you were honest with yourself?
|
|
Link to this post
|
Reapist
Title: Official ACF HIOFI Poster
Posts:
74,991
Registered:
Dec 20, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 74,235
User ID: 559,475
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
|
levrge can't address my theory.
-----signature-----
pkhere: Jebus sometimes you make my arse tired.
Referring to illegal aliens as 'immigrants' is the same as referring to shoplifters as 'shoppers' - Dorvinion
I'd feel bad for Satriani but he got himself into it. - allmightybob_MLF
|
|
Link to this post
|
levgre
Posts:
25,822
Registered:
Oct 24, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 25,076
User ID: 479,056
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
By lay down I thought you meant like a government often to do. Conscious deliberation/application of orders based on a bit more than our basic instincts.
If by 'lay down' you just mean the execution of instinctive orders, then really I guess insects and all other social creatures have governments. You are free to define government as such, but I will disagree, as would history and most experts(in biology, history, sociology, so forth).
Social behavior is complex, especially when you have groups of people involved. Words like 'government' are created to define conditions of it. It's a scale with grey areas, but that grey area only goes so far.
Reapist posted:
levrge can't address my theory.
Your theory is dumb. A single interpersonal relationship is not at all a situation that generates a government.
-----signature-----
<(o.O)> <(o.O<) (>o.O)> (>o.O<)<(''<) <( ' ' )> (>'')>
|
|
Link to this post
|
NeoKarnak
Posts:
3,788
Registered:
Dec 21, '09
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 3,786
User ID: 1,379,922
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
I think your definition of government is the formation of institutions to control certain groups and/or regions. If so, that is just an advanced form of government.
Without even a simplistic governmental structure, human beings would be walking Beta fish and would just fight other males to the death and mate with any female they came across. We would have become extinct without the group and every group needs guidelines that ensure survival.
-----signature-----
When was the last time you were honest with yourself?
|
|
Link to this post
|
levgre
Posts:
25,822
Registered:
Oct 24, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 25,076
User ID: 479,056
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
NeoKarnak posted:
I think your definition of government is the formation of institutions to control certain groups and/or regions. If so, that is just an advanced form of government.
Without even a simplistic governmental structure, human beings would be walking Beta fish and would just fight other males to the death and mate with any female they came across. We would have become extinct without the group and every group needs guidelines that ensure survival.
No, as I wrote above some small tribes/communities also form governments. No necessity for group/region control, at the simplest level it is more focused on complex resource planning and allocation. It basically has to do with next-level organization, more complex and diverse orders than the basic instinct driven ones you see in humans and animals alike.
Instinctual homo-sapien mating behavior is not at all like Bettas. We would be akin to the great apes, with Alpha Males who get what women they want and subordinate males being submissive. I separate our culturally evolved social organization from our evolutionary social behavior.
-----signature-----
<(o.O)> <(o.O<) (>o.O)> (>o.O<)<(''<) <( ' ' )> (>'')>
|
|
Link to this post
|
Maleraka
Title: Postponing the inevitable
Posts:
8,973
Registered:
Sep 24, '02
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 8,379
User ID: 720,083
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
We'd all still be in smaller groups fighting for survival with neighboring areas. Way less advanced, low tech.
Overall, it's a dumb question. We banded together for strength and safety and a governing body or leader is a natural progression. The stronger a group gets, the more government it requires. And also the harder it is to govern.
-----signature-----
Twitter: @minibucho
Xbox Live: minibucho
|
|
Link to this post
|
Ashmaele
Title: Pastor of Muppets
Posts:
19,662
Registered:
Jan 15, '02
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 15,903
User ID: 612,352
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
It would be like Lord of the Flies.
Or if the area was mostly controlled by stupid people it would be like Gilligan's Island.
-----signature-----
I had a dream. It was an incredible dream. When I awoke, I had a huge mess to clean up. 
|
|
Link to this post
|
Sith_Mauler
Posts:
24,642
Registered:
Dec 21, '02
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 24,438
User ID: 750,977
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
Some humans are born with a dominate alpha trait, this is where your great leaders and conquerors have came from through out history for example.
Leadership is trait that in its greatest and most effective form is a born with attribute.
You can train a good leader or manager but they will always lack something that a natural born leader has.
-----signature-----
Well I ain't first class
But I ain't white trash
I'm wild and a little crazy too
I have seen a lot of things in my life time.
That is why I walk the line I walk.
|
|
Link to this post
|
Reapist
Title: Official ACF HIOFI Poster
Posts:
74,991
Registered:
Dec 20, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 74,235
User ID: 559,475
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
|
LOL, levgre asks a question and if you don't agree with what he has stuck in his head you are wrong no matter how much sense it makes.
-----signature-----
pkhere: Jebus sometimes you make my arse tired.
Referring to illegal aliens as 'immigrants' is the same as referring to shoplifters as 'shoppers' - Dorvinion
I'd feel bad for Satriani but he got himself into it. - allmightybob_MLF
|
|
Link to this post
|
rabbitslayer
Posts:
2,547
Registered:
Aug 26, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 2,537
User ID: 347,811
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
|
humans would have never evolved and the planet would be inhabited by plants and animals only
-----signature-----
(none)
|
|
Link to this post
|
JD_HOGG
Posts:
19,975
Registered:
Mar 18, '08
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 19,893
User ID: 1,285,011
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
|
We would be a bunch of loners, probably canibals. But at least we wouldn't have global warming!
-----signature-----
(none)
|
|
Link to this post
|
.-Vega-.
Posts:
12,423
Registered:
Jun 20, '05
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 12,213
User ID: 1,059,842
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
BritonGuy posted:
Oh look a semantics thread.
Except the OP was too stupid to realize his post was semantic in nature.
-----signature-----
Ron Paul 2012
|
|
Link to this post
|
Allmightybob_MLF
Title: Occult Amuck
Posts:
38,329
Registered:
Mar 22, '04
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 36,909
User ID: 906,737
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
What would happen if there was never any government? There'd be government apparently.
Good discussion.
-----signature-----
(none)
|
|
Link to this post
|
Aerlinthian
Posts:
66,222
Registered:
May 7, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 65,491
User ID: 94,919
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
|
lol
-----signature-----
(none)
|
|
Link to this post
|
-Abysmal-
Posts:
21,891
Registered:
Dec 20, '00
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 21,218
User ID: 59,638
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
Allmightybob_MLF posted:
What would happen if there was never any government? There'd be government apparently.
Good discussion.
well no, this was more of a *]What would happen if there was never any government?* if you ignore certain types of government!
-----signature-----
Now i LIVESTRONG GO PATRIOTS Yankees SUCK! I wish AC looked better, I miss it I love you forever Jamie
|
|
Link to this post
|
levgre
Posts:
25,822
Registered:
Oct 24, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 25,076
User ID: 479,056
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
Allmightybob_MLF posted:
What would happen if there was never any government? There'd be government apparently.
Good discussion.
Actually there are a variety of hypothetical scenarios that could be imagined. For example the world could be comparatively Utopian to what we have right now, with families and settlements living independently, free from any tyrannical rule. Large wars would have never occurred and every human would have a flying car.
-----signature-----
<(o.O)> <(o.O<) (>o.O)> (>o.O<)<(''<) <( ' ' )> (>'')>
|
|
Link to this post
|
Reapist
Title: Official ACF HIOFI Poster
Posts:
74,991
Registered:
Dec 20, '01
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 74,235
User ID: 559,475
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
Why yes, of course levgre is right, because there would be no theft, or rape, or killings.
In his little world that is.
-----signature-----
pkhere: Jebus sometimes you make my arse tired.
Referring to illegal aliens as 'immigrants' is the same as referring to shoplifters as 'shoppers' - Dorvinion
I'd feel bad for Satriani but he got himself into it. - allmightybob_MLF
|
|
Link to this post
|
-Abysmal-
Posts:
21,891
Registered:
Dec 20, '00
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 21,218
User ID: 59,638
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
|
just think, there would also be no stupid threads like this one!
-----signature-----
Now i LIVESTRONG GO PATRIOTS Yankees SUCK! I wish AC looked better, I miss it I love you forever Jamie
|
|
Link to this post
|
Allmightybob_MLF
Title: Occult Amuck
Posts:
38,329
Registered:
Mar 22, '04
Extended Info (if available)
Real Post Cnt: 36,909
User ID: 906,737
|
Subject:
What do you think 2012 AD would be like if no government had ever been created?
|
levgre posted:
Actually there are a variety of hypothetical scenarios that could be imagined. For example the world could be comparatively Utopian to what we have right now, with families and settlements living independently, free from any tyrannical rule. Large wars would have never occurred and every human would have a flying car.
And up could be down and air could be water!
-----signature-----
(none)
|
|
Link to this post
|
