Abaddon_Ambrosius
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"Libs": Flat taxes & non-progressive tax are evil, UNLESS...
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...you are a Democrat in California!
Article posted:
In July 2010, California changed the way it charges gasoline taxes. As part of the effort to close the state budget deficit, the legislature doubled the motor vehicle fuel tax from 17.3 cents a gallon to 35.3 cents but also lowered the sales and use tax on motor vehicle fuel from 8.25% to 2.25%.
State legislators said the change should not cost motorists any more. The change was intended to allow the state to use revenues from the motor vehicle fuel tax to pay off transportation bonds, freeing up more money in the general fund.
However, the sales tax is based on a percentage of the total sale. So if gas prices go down, the total amount paid in tax goes down. The motor vehicle fuel tax is a flat price per gallon so you get charged the same 35.3 cents a gallon regardless of the price of gasoline.
Do tell.
Shocker, there.
And yes, the Dems were the majority party across the board in the Cali legislature in 2010.
"Liberals". Pfffft.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Not even an apologist?
Hypocrisy is great, ain't it?
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theredkay1
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"Libs": Flat taxes & non-progressive tax are evil, UNLESS...
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I think most dems are generally supportive of a gas tax. Its a good way to raise revenue. Since we import so much oil, it is also effective at nudging the trade deficit and national budget deficits. It also has environmental benefits.
Pay attention. You can start next week. A clean slate! 
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__Bonk__
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The gas tax to most liberals is considered to be a sin tax
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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theredkay1 posted:
I think most dems are generally supportive of a regressive gas tax that "disproportionately punishes the working man" and increases the price of everything he consumes.
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GrilledCheez
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I would get rid of all consumption taxes if I could.
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Bonzoboy1
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GrilledCheez posted:
I would get rid of all consumption taxes if I could.
They hit the poor the hardest, you would think the left would want them gone.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Well that settles it.
Flat consumption tax for everyone, and abolish the income tax. We'll solve the nation's woes within just a few years.
Thanks, Dems. I knew we could count on ya to do something right!
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Sin_of_Onin
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"Libs": Flat taxes & non-progressive tax are evil, UNLESS...
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A flat tax tends to refer to a tax that is a flat % on income. A flat gasoline tax would be a gross receipts tax. A sales tax on gas would be similar.
This tax is per gallon. The major difference between the two is that a per gallon tax doesn't make spikes in gas prices worse.
Many states tax gas. It is a way to help pay for roads without resorting to tolls. As consumption taxes go it is fairly well accepted.
It is in no way even remotely close to a conversation about replacing the federal income tax with a "flat tax." To try and compare the two requires a special kind of stupid.
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Remnant_OBrien
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Which is what we got... yay us.
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reesescups
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Yukishiro1
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This is like the stupidest thing you've ever posted. I have trouble believing you are really this stupid. Although it would validate a lot of my biases against MBAs.
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Fist_de_Yuma
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It is a targeted tax that effects the poor and middle class the most. When it comes to words and actions liberals have a this nice way of reversion. Too get away with it they use different words so people don't see how screwed they are.
Another point. The Sales tax is on the price at the pump. That means you pay a tax on the tax. Screwed twice. We really need to get these evil people out of office, starting with Obama.
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Ashmaele
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Fist_de_Yuma posted:
It is a targeted tax that effects the poor and middle class the most. When it comes to words and actions liberals have a this nice way of reversion. Too get away with it they use different words so people don't see how screwed they are.
Another point. The Sales tax is on the price at the pump. That means you pay a tax on the tax. Screwed twice. We really need to get these evil people out of office, starting with Obama.
 Just when you thought the OP was the stupidest thing you've ever read, Fist comes in and doubles down.
You do realize that gasoline taxes have been around, like, forever right? They are not an invention of Obama.
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Fist_de_Yuma
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Ashmaele posted:
Fist_de_Yuma posted:
It is a targeted tax that effects the poor and middle class the most. When it comes to words and actions liberals have a this nice way of reversion. Too get away with it they use different words so people don't see how screwed they are.
Another point. The Sales tax is on the price at the pump. That means you pay a tax on the tax. Screwed twice. We really need to get these evil people out of office, starting with Obama.
Just when you thought the OP was the stupidest thing you've ever read, Fist comes in and doubles down.
You do realize that gasoline taxes have been around, like, forever right? They are not an invention of Obama.
No one ever said he did. If you want it to come down to blame Obama has plenty to share. It is his actions that have caused the prices to go up so much. Yes, he has a lot of weasle words and finger pointing but when you get down to the root cause you find Obama. Seem like liberals can never address the point. They always have to make a personal attack instead. If they don't agree (or more often don't understand) a point, they try to make fun of the poster. A sad product of our educuation system.
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Ashmaele
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Fist_de_Yuma posted:
Ashmaele posted:
Fist_de_Yuma posted:
It is a targeted tax that effects the poor and middle class the most. When it comes to words and actions liberals have a this nice way of reversion. Too get away with it they use different words so people don't see how screwed they are.
Another point. The Sales tax is on the price at the pump. That means you pay a tax on the tax. Screwed twice. We really need to get these evil people out of office, starting with Obama.
Just when you thought the OP was the stupidest thing you've ever read, Fist comes in and doubles down.
You do realize that gasoline taxes have been around, like, forever right? They are not an invention of Obama.
No one ever said he did. If you want it to come down to blame Obama has plenty to share.
Then how will getting rid of Obama get rid of gas taxes you ****ing dumbass?
Fist_de_Yuma posted:
We really need to get these evil people out of office, starting with Obama.
Either you actually believe that getting rid of Obama will get rid of the gas tax (stupid) or you just threw Obama's name out there as part of your usual thread idiocy but don't actually think Obama has much to do with gas taxes (even stupider).
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
A flat tax ...
The title of the flippin' thread posted:
"Libs": Flat taxes & non-progressive tax are evil, UNLESS...
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Yukishiro1
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Since when have you ever heard of a progressive sales tax?
Btw, the change you are ranting about has no effect whatsoever on the progressivity of the gas tax. It is just changing it from a % tax to a flat dollars-added-per-unit tax. This is not at all the same as a "flat" income tax. No one has ever seriously proposed an income taxation system where someone who makes 1 million a year pays the same absolute value in taxes as someone who makes 10000. Because not even RWNs are that dumb.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Since when have you ever heard of a progressive sales tax?
Dems are not supposed to support ANY regressive tax, numbnuts. Particularly one that taxes EVERYONE. Heavily.
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__Bonk__
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The dems are all for sin taxes and they consider oil to be evil so its ok to tax the pooor and middle class more than the rich
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Yukishiro1
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The effect of the change you are ranting about is to change to a gas tax system that doesn't exaggerate spikes in the price of gas. Spikes in the price of gas hurt poor and middle class people more than rich people. Therefore, the change is more progressive than the status quo.
You seriously picked the stupidest possible example you could have.
Which doesn't surprise me a bit.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Yukishiro1 posted:
The effect of the change you are ranting about...
...is to show that most Dems are hypocritical self-serving pricks of the same order as the Republicans they regularly rant about.
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Yukishiro1
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Doubling down on stupid is never a great strategy. You can convince yourself you didn't do something extraordinarily stupid, but it just makes it all the more obvious to anyone watching.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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@Yuki:
A. Dems in Cali -- ALL ON THEIR OWN -- have instituted a 100% regressive tax on the most used and pervasive commodity in the state, disproportionately reaming every working man and woman therein.
B. You are still predictably trying to figure out how to apologize for and/or rationalize it.
1) F*ck you.
2) Tell me exactly what is incorrect about statements A. or B.
3) F*ck you.
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Remnant_OBrien
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
@Yuki:
A. Dems in Cali -- ALL ON THEIR OWN -- have instituted a 100% regressive tax on the most used and pervasive commodity in the state, disproportionately reaming every working man and woman therein.
B. You are still predictably trying to figure out how to apologize for and/or rationalize it.
1) F*ck you.
2) Tell me exactly what is incorrect about statements A. or B.
3) F*ck you.
Another fail...
The working poor disproportionately use public transportation. So they will be less affected as a demographic by this than other demographics.
Thanks for providing the outpost your multi-day personal parade of intellectual failure. Also the tax was already instituted, the rate just changed. so fail again.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Ah, another  "wizard of the markets" weighs in.
Gas is a component in the cost of e-ver-y-thing.
Therefore, taxing the cost of gas in a regressive manner raises the cost of e-ver-y-thing in a regressive manner.
It therefore imposes a regressive tax on e-ver-y-thing.
Repeat after me...
EVERYTHING.
GOD what dumbasses you guys are. Are you a Cali resident too, redundant? You might as well go for the grand slam of stupid...
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reesescups
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
Therefore, taxing the cost of gas in a regressive manner ...
You keep saying this. I have to wonder, when you say this do you mean in a more progressive manner than before?
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Yukishiro1
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
@Yuki:
A. Dems in Cali -- ALL ON THEIR OWN -- have instituted a 100% regressive tax on the most used and pervasive commodity in the state, disproportionately reaming every working man and woman therein
You're still an idiot no matter how many times you make things up.
The change you are ranting about doesn't institute a new tax. It just changes the way the current one is calculated. In particular, it changes it so it doesn't exaggerate spikes in the price of gas. Those spikes are much more harmful to the lower and middle classes than the upper classes. So the change is overall progressive, if anything.
You're just a complete moron no matter how you look at this.
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Remnant_OBrien
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Predictable trite and stupid.
What made AA snap and go all Fisted Puma? He usually attempted to maintain plausible deniability on his partisanship. The stupidity no so much
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Yukishiro1
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AA is one of those people who can't stop digging. He probably didn't bother to read the original piece properly before posting. But apparently in MBA school they teach you that whatever you do never admit to a mistake, just keep doubling down and down and hope everyone else either gets bored or starts feeling sorry for you.
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Remnant_OBrien
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The reviews are in for...
"Libs": Flat taxes & non-progressive tax are evil, UNLESS...
"A Special Kind of Stupid." -- Sin_of_Onin
"The stupidest thing... ever posted." -- Yukishiro1
"The stupidest thing... ever read" -- Ashmaele
"Not even RWN's are that dumb." -- Yukishiro1
"A sad product..." -- Fist_de_Yuma
"Doubling down on stupid." -- Yukishiro1
"...trying to figure out how to apologize for and/or rationalize it." -- Abaddon_Ambrosius
A "parade of intellectual failure" -- Remnant_Obrien
"the grand slam of stupid" --Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Ashmaele
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Stupid strawman was stupid and has been pointed out as such. All the goldfish gifs in the world won't make it less stupid.
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Sin_of_Onin
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So AA is so stupid he is defending his retarded abomination of a strawman?
It is like you were suddenly made aware that states resort to far more regressive taxation than the federal income tax and when no one else is surprised you think they are ignoring your great argument. Not to mention your general confusion about the entire topic being on display.
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Moe_Nox
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
GOD what dumbasses you guys are. Are you a Cali resident too, redundant? You might as well go for the grand slam of stupid...
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Subject:
"Libs": Flat taxes & non-progressive tax are evil, UNLESS...
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
@Yuki:
A. Dems in Cali -- ALL ON THEIR OWN -- have instituted a 100% regressive tax on the most used and pervasive commodity in the state, disproportionately reaming every working man and woman therein
You're still an idiot no matter how many times you make things up.
The change you are ranting about doesn't institute a new tax...
So *that* is what you are hanging your hat on?
"It was there already, they just tweaked it".
Wonderful!
So, once a tax exists, you simply lose control over it, right? It has a life of its own and it cannot possibly be eliminated? And in fact, it will only become more regressive by necessity?
God I do love watching you people justify the unjustifiable.
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reesescups
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"Libs": Flat taxes & non-progressive tax are evil, UNLESS...
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
So, once a tax exists, you simply lose control over it, right?
Who said they lost control over it? It's apparent they haven't lost control over it (as that is the topic of this thread) and not only did they not loose control over it - they made the tax more progressive than it was previously.
/shrug
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Kjarhall
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Wow, this a seriously stupid thread.
Arguments here have always been about a national flat or "fair" tax, which isn't anywhere near comparable to a specifically targeted one.
But you did give Fist a chance to show his stupid again, so we'll call it even.
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AzureTyger
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This thread is an unintentional work of art.
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Sin_of_Onin
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I wonder if after this thread the right wingers will realize how stupid they are when they act like a huge part of the population doesn't pay taxes.
Yeah no chance.
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Ashmaele posted:
Stupid strawman was stupid and has been pointed out as such. All the goldfish gifs in the world won't make it less stupid.
The goldfish .gif seems to be his surrender flag, I think it is as close as he can get to admitting his argument lost.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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reesescups posted:
Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
So, once a tax exists, you simply lose control over it, right?
Who said they lost control over it? It's apparent they haven't lost control over it (as that is the topic of this thread) and not only did they not loose control over it - they made the tax more progressive than it was previously./shrug
No. By swapping from percentage-based to flat regressive price-per-gallon, it dis-incents the complex and distributors/large-consumers from being more efficient at producing and hedging the taxed item to reduce its cost. The incentive to work to drop the price has been reduced, thereby setting an effective 'floor' on prices.
Currently under the percentage system, incentive is for businesses to hedge and reduce the cost per gallon quite low because as they do, they simultaneously reduce the tax burden and make their product more appealing to the consumer.
Worse. Since it is GAS, this regressive flat tax is regressive for all consumers and all products, regardless of whether or not they are individually putting one dram of gas into "their own car." You may not even own a car. Yet, you're getting hit with a regressive tax on everything gas is used to ship.
You guys are really not getting this, are you?
Do you really not get the impact of gasoline taxes on the overall economy? After about 100 conversations on this board? Let me spell it out in big letters:
FLAT GASOLINE TAXES ARE A REGRESSIVE FLAT TAX OF THE HIGHEST ORDER WHICH HIT EVERY RESIDENT OF YOUR STATE WHETHER THEY EARN ONE DIME OR NOT. OR EVEN OWN A CAR. THEY ARE MORE PERVASIVE THAN EVEN INCOME TAX OR PRODUCT SALES TAX BECAUSE THE COST SHOWS UP IN *EVERYTHING.*
Has to be a bilateral attempt to troll me and drive me up the wall. Has to be.
Simply keeping the percentage tax with an upper cap would have made 100 times more sense. But no. We're going to have the typical apologists come up with *any* lame-brained way to try to make this look good.
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Tych2
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
I wonder if after this thread the right wingers will realize how stupid they are when they act like a huge part of the population doesn't pay taxes.
Yeah no chance.
Well in their defense they preface now by saying income taxes and not just no taxes.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Tych2 posted:
Sin_of_Onin posted:
I wonder if after this thread the right wingers will realize how stupid they are when they act like a huge part of the population doesn't pay taxes.
Yeah no chance.
Well in their defense they preface now by saying income taxes and not just no taxes.
You realize you are shooting yourselves right in the nuts using that one in one of my threads. Me being, you know, the guy who argues for much smaller government and targeted, earmarked & tracked taxes that fund related regulation / administration. Right?
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theredkay1
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
No. By swapping from percentage-based to flat regressive price-per-gallon, it dis-incents the complex and distributors/large-consumers from being more efficient at producing and hedging the taxed item to reduce its cost. The incentive to work to drop the price has been reduced, thereby setting an effective 'floor' on prices.
Currently under the percentage system, incentive is for businesses to hedge and reduce the cost per gallon quite low because as they do, they simultaneously reduce the tax burden and make their product more appealing to the consumer.
This flat fee sets a price floor and creates a stronger incentive to consume less gas. They are simply trading the incentive to find cheaper gas for the incentive to use less gas. Both actions lead to cheaper gas, but only one has environmental benefits.
Both incentives (cheaper gas, less usage) exist regardless of the tax policy so the change in behavior will be minimal.
Hard to believe an MBA program let you out the door thinking a policy that sets a floor on prices will not create incentives that alter behavior. Did you really not know that? Or did you ignore it because it would take much of the ARGLBARGLE out of your post?
Hedging is really limited....creating incentives to hedge your price risk isnt really going to make a bit of difference in the long run (you cant hedge your way around the basic supply/demand curve problem at the gas pump)....and it pales in comparison to the impact of reducing demand just a bit. This may hurt the business of some of the guys sitting at desks helping companies hedge commodity risks...but it should have a positive impact on the gasoline situation in the country, albeit a very limited one.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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@red: You just simultaneously confirmed what I said AND tried to pretend I didn't say what I said, all in the same post. Congrats! I shall, therefore, again promptly ignore it.
I return to my still unanswered challenge to Yuki, which now applies to you:
Abaddon posted:
A. Dems in Cali -- ALL ON THEIR OWN -- have instituted a 100% regressive tax on the most used and pervasive commodity in the state, disproportionately reaming every working man and woman therein.
B. You are still predictably trying to figure out how to apologize for and/or rationalize it.
How do you address these *facts*, when the people who instituted this clearly regressive and California-universal tax are Democrats? The party AGAINST regressive taxation?
There's one answer: Hypocrisy, as part of the typical two-party sham.
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Yukishiro1
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1. The tax already existed, so it wasn't "instituted."
2. It happened with Republican support, so it wasn't "100% of their own."
3. The change makes the tax more progressive, not less. The change lowers the impact of swings in the price of gas. What hurts lower and middle class people most about gas prices is not the absolute value but the volatility. This change lowers the volatility while keeping the average tax burden the same.
So you are 0/3 on your assertions. Congratulations. You should really just slink away instead of continuing to double down. All you are doing is making a bigger and bigger fool of yourself.
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theredkay1
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
@red: You just simultaneously confirmed what I said AND tried to pretend I didn't say what I said, all in the same post. Congrats! I shall, therefore, again promptly ignore it.
I return to my still unanswered challenge to Yuki, which now applies to you:
Abaddon posted:
A. Dems in Cali -- ALL ON THEIR OWN -- have instituted a 100% regressive tax on the most used and pervasive commodity in the state, disproportionately reaming every working man and woman therein.
B. You are still predictably trying to figure out how to apologize for and/or rationalize it.
How do you address these *facts*, when the people who instituted this clearly regressive and California-universal tax are Democrats? The party AGAINST regressive taxation?
There's one answer: Hypocrisy, as part of the typical two-party sham.
I dont think you understand what you are saying then.
The Democratic party differs from the GOP in one fundamental way. The GOP is a one issue party. The Dems are a multi-issue party. You view the world as a Republican and see everything from the 'tax cuts or wealth redistrition' perspective. So when there are other issues at play, your mind is unable to wrap itself around the whole picture. You see attempts to deal with multiple issues as 'hypocrisy'...but I think most people are able to view this correctly.
The world is not a simple place. I know it would be easier if every single issue at its heart was about the share of wealth going to the rich or the poor...but its not. Sorry that the world is so complicated. Even with this one issue you cant seem to figure out what you are saying. A simpler world would be more fun.
And you keep failing to show how this is a regressive change. I just dont think that many poor people have a large hedging operation that might be impacted by this.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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theredkay1 posted:
But... it's more COMPLICATED than that!!
No. Blatant hypocrisy really isn't very complicated. Obvious sham is obvious.
Cali Dems: "Regressive taxes and punishing the working man are bad... unless we do it."
Sucker.
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Sin_of_Onin
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State taxation is actually an interesting topic. It is too bad that AA has ruined his own topic with the healthy helping of stupid he has brought to the thread.
Yuki is right in saying that this move does make the fuel tax less regressive during these times of high gas prices. It is actually a move that a lot of small business advocates are for. Generally speaking both parties have a lot of people that would be for no gas taxes if it wasn’t for the need to build and maintain roads.
There are far more interesting battles that happen at the state level with regards to taxation and the progressivity issue. Property taxes being the obvious one but the sales tax is another significant issue. Republicans who are smart like to talk about how the government can intentionally or unintentionally create economic incentives that are harmful. The property tax is capable of creating very powerful economic incentives for people that has a very large impact on business and education. The only real reason that Republicans and even Democrats don’t change this is the power that towns have and any change would impact a lot of their voters in what they would consider a negative way. This impact will be especially strong in the short term which makes it political suicide.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
theredkay1 posted:
Sometimes issues have more than one angle to consider
I REFUSE TO ACCEPT THAT!
Thats the funny part.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
State taxation is actually an interesting topic. It is too bad that AA has ruined his own topic...
As the guy who wrote the OP I can definitively state: the topic isn't state taxation. It is clearly "Faux Liberal" and Dem+Republican hypocrisy.
I care not that you and others desperately want to shift off that topic just because it is damning for Dems and "liberals".
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Sin_of_Onin
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AA you are too stupid to be part of the topic you accidently brought up.
Feel free to start another thread that demonstrates both your arrogance and your ignorance. I think it will be hard for you to top this thread but I wish you the best of luck.
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Yukishiro1
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
Sin_of_Onin posted:
State taxation is actually an interesting topic. It is too bad that AA has ruined his own topic...
As the guy who wrote the OP I can definitively state: the topic isn't state taxation. It is clearly "Faux Liberal" and Dem+Republican hypocrisy.
I care not that you and others desperately want to shift off that topic just because it is damning for Dems and "liberals".
That's the sad thing about the thread. There is actually an interesting topic here to be discussed if you weren't such an idiot and didn't insist on self-pwning from the very first post. In your effort to score partisan points you've used an example the illustrates the opposite of what you think it does and then when someone pointed it out, instead of doing the intelligent thing and shifting the discussion to what is actually quite an interesting topic, you doubled down on your stupid.
It is a textbook example of how not to deal with a self-pwn on the Outpost.
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Oh I see the problem now. AA wanted to only talk about how dumb liberals are but to AA's great frustration, other people had the nerve to talk about gas taxes or state taxation. My mistake.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Typical 'liberal' apologists posted:
 Please dear GOD let us talk about anything but obvious Dem hypocrisy which is obvious.
I'm not one to stifle productive discussion. Since the hypocrisy of the Dems and their lack of differentiation here from the R's is clear to even a child... there's no need to stop you from shifting the discussion to something less humiliating for you.
Go ahead. Have at. Maybe you'll learn TWO lessons in this thread, instead of just my initial one.
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Yukishiro1
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This is starting to be like watching someone embarrass themselves on TV. Fun for the first 30 seconds, then it just becomes awful and makes you feel guilty and you change the channel.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Yukishiro1 posted:
This is starting to be like watching someone embarrass themselves on TV. Fun for the first 30 seconds, then it just becomes awful and makes you feel guilty and you change the channel.
Then you should have shut up while you were ahead.
Oh wait... you never were. You stepped directly in as the blind partisan defender. As usual.
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Ashmaele
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theredkay1 posted:
Oh I see the problem now. AA wanted to only talk about how dumb liberals are but to AA's great frustration, other people had the nerve to talk about gas taxes or state taxation. My mistake.
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The original poster again brings to mind John Cleese's comment about the trouble with stupid people being they're too stupid to realize how stupid they are.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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'Liberal' apologists trying to save face posted:
Do go on...
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Sin_of_Onin
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How dare liberals cloudy the issue with facts and reason!
This is a clear indication they are blind!
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I honestly feel sorry for you. Your ego is so much larger than your IQ. It must be hard. I do not like kicking people when they are down (well, not more than a kick or two...) so I will stop now.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Yukishiro1 posted:
I honestly feel sorry for you. Your ego is so much larger than your IQ. It must be hard. I do not like kicking people when they are down (well, not more than a kick or two...) so I will stop now.
No you won't. You know you are soundly in the wrong here and just *cannot* admit it. You want to take this conversation ANYWHERE but where it forces you to admit this move by the Cali Dems was hypocrisy.
The lengths people will go to never, EVER cross the partisan line here -- even in the most clear situations of hypocrisy -- are incredible. To the point of insane.
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When I said I would stop I was serious. I will not mock you any more in this thread.
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Sin_of_Onin
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
I honestly feel sorry for you. Your ego is so much larger than your IQ. It must be hard. I do not like kicking people when they are down (well, not more than a kick or two...) so I will stop now.
No you won't. You know you are soundly in the wrong here and just *cannot* admit it. You want to take this conversation ANYWHERE but where it forces you to admit this move by the Cali Dems was hypocrisy.
The lengths people will go to never, EVER cross the partisan line here -- even in the most clear situations of hypocrisy -- are incredible. To the point of insane.
Are you under the impression that the only thing to consider here is how progressive the tax is?
That is the only way any of your comments make any sense.
-----signature-----
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Yuki. If you don't wish to continue mocking yourself and cheating yourself of an obvious bit of credibility by simply saying, "you know what, all groups make mistakes and this was hypocrisy by the Dems"...
...why are you still posting? After you just said you wouldn't post any more?
You're not all gone. The truth still eats at you sometimes, doesn't it?
You WANT to say the right thing -- the logical thing. But that brainwash toggle in your head just won't let you.
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Yukishiro1
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I said I wouldn't mock you any more and I haven't. Although I have to admit I'm tempted to post a certain monty python video that the situation reminds me of.
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theredkay1
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
The lengths people will go to never, EVER cross the partisan line here --
this line funny
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Seething199
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i got embarrassed for A_A about 30 posts into this thread and had to stop reading.
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reesescups
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
theredkay1 posted:
But... it's more COMPLICATED than that!!
No. Blatant hypocrisy really isn't very complicated. Obvious sham is obvious.
Cali Dems: "Regressive taxes and punishing the working man are bad... unless we do it."
Sucker.
Last time I checked commodity traders (the people that would possibly be most effected by this, if at all) are not 'the working man', they aren't the working poor and they aren't average joe plumber.
So not only are you being a shitty flute player for the rich here, you aren't even holding the flute properly... Go take a few more classes, turn the flute around and maybe, just maybe you might start making sense...
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Remnant_OBrien
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More reviews!
A "Retarded abomination of a strawman" -- Sin_of_Onin
"An unintentional work of art" -- AzureTyger
"*facts* ... hypocrisy" -- Abaddon_Ambrosius
A "mind... unable to wrap itself around the whole picture." -- theredkay1
"obvious sham is obvious" --Abaddon_Ambrosius
"A healthy helping of stupid" -- Sin_of_Onin
"Too stupid to be part of the topic" -- Sin_of_Onin
"Self-pwning from the very first post." -- Yukishiro1
"Humiliating" -- Abaddon_Ambrosius
"Fun for the first 30 seconds, then it just becomes awful and makes you feel guilty" -- Yukishiro1
"the trouble with stupid people... they're too stupid to realize how stupid they are." -- Yukishiro1
"trying to save face" -- Abaddon_Ambrosius
"ego... so much larger than iq." -- Yukishiro1
"insane" -- Abaddon_Ambrosius
"embarassed" -- Seething199
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Groucho48
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So, let's look at an example.
Middle class family uses 50 gallons of gas a month. There is a 10% tax on the gas. At $3. a gallon, they pay $15. in gas tax. The price goes up to $5 a gallon. They pay $25. in gas tax.
California switches to a $.30 a gallon tax. At $3 a gallon, they pay $15. in gas tax. At $5 a gallon they pay $15. in gas tax.
A flat tax is better for people when there is inflation. A % tax is better if there is deflation.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Seething199 posted:
i got embarrassed for A_A about 30 posts into this thread and had to stop reading.
Then you should try reading only my posts and re-computing. The feces being thrown around by the other monkeys isn't even on topic with the simple, factual observation I brought to the board.
All they're doing is managing to get a ton of crap stuck to their fur, then pretending like everyone else around them stinks. 
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reesescups
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
Seething199 posted:
i got embarrassed for A_A about 30 posts into this thread and had to stop reading.
Then you should try reading only my posts and re-computing.
Why not take into account reality?
Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
The feces being thrown around by the other monkeys isn't even on topic with the simple, factual observation I brought to the board.
Maybe because you didn't bring any simple, factual observations to the board?
no no no that can't be it, it must be everyone else...
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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reesescups posted:
Shame shame, reese.
Joining the rest of the monkeys on this one. 
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Sin_of_Onin
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Ohh look AA is trying to save the thread by going from sad pathetic clown to funny clown.
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Remnant_OBrien
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It was more like a simple, uninformed opinion.
But I can see how AA wouldn't understand the difference.
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reesescups
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
reesescups posted:
Shame shame, reese.
Joining the rest of the monkeys on this one.
I can't help but pick on low hanging fruit...
Don't be low hanging fruit and threads like this won't happen to you.
BTW - that pic, that's basically what you did in the OP. Great choice, wrong target...
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Typical apologists posted:
Please dear GOD
Look OVER THERE!
No.
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"Knowing means nothing." - Fat-badger
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Remnant_OBrien
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I guess the question then becomes, will AA ever grow out of his habit of pseudo-intellectual masturbation?
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The People's Intern
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Remnant_OBrien posted:
Srsly dude. Plz.
Look over there.
Srsly. No.
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reesescups
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This thread is so lame it really should have a momma joke in it, so without further ado....
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Remnant_OBrien
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
Remnant_OBrien posted:
Srsly dude. Plz.
Look over there.
Srsly. No.
You'd have to have a point for someone to try to avoid it...
All you've got is ARGLBARGL and an ongoing one-man clown show
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The People's Intern
"If I had a plan to kill liberals the liberals would not know about it. Until it is too late of course. I have no such plan, sleep well, sleep deeply." -Fisted
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ZigmundZag
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tl;dr - did AA figure out the difference between a consumption tax and an income tax yet?
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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ZigmundZag posted:
tl;dr - did AA figure out the difference between a consumption tax and an income tax yet?
Did you figure this thread is about hypocrisy in the Dems supporting and driving through a highly regressive tax scheme that's MORE PERVASIVE than an income tax, yet? Despite their "rhetoric" and <cough> "conviction" to the contrary?
No?
Apparently 80+ replies still isn't enough for you to get a clue...
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Groucho48
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
ZigmundZag posted:
tl;dr - did AA figure out the difference between a consumption tax and an income tax yet?
Did you figure this thread is about hypocrisy in the Dems supporting and driving through a highly regressive tax scheme that's MORE PERVASIVE than an income tax, yet? Despite their "rhetoric" and <cough> "conviction" to the contrary?
No?
Apparently 80+ replies still isn't enough for you to get a clue...
Your thread title labelled it a flat or non-progressive tax. Now, you are calling it a highly regressive tax. That's even less accurate.
With rising gas prices this will save people money. You do realize that, whether you charge a % tax on gas or a set amount per gallon on gas, they are both flat taxes. Under either scheme, the rich and the poor will pay exactly the same amount of tax, for, say 10 gallons, whether the tax is 10% or $.10 a gallon.
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Kjarhall
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ZigmundZag posted:
tl;dr - did AA figure out the difference between a consumption tax and an income tax yet?
Apparently not.
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SoBaKi
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What's so funny is I've had at least 2 MBAs tell me during program reviews that it is not their job to explain financial numbers.
Thanks to this thread and AA, the only conclusion you can make is that MBAs are worthless. Unless of course, all you're doing is checking some box for a promotion.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Groucho48 posted:
Your thread title labelled it a flat or non-progressive tax. Now, you are calling it a highly regressive tax. That's even less accurate.
It's a flat consumption tax.
It is a non-progressive tax.
It is therefore a regressive tax.
It is a tax more pervasive than even an income tax.
It is therefore a highly regressive tax.
Keep up! You're smarter than that, Groucho. I expect it from the rest of the peanut gallery.
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"Knowing means nothing." - Fat-badger
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Sin_of_Onin
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AA, let this thread die. You are making a fool of yourself.
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F is for Fake-believe
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
AA, let this thread die. You are making a fool of yourself.
So you agree that an inescapable* universal tax more pervasive than even an income tax, enforced at a flat rate, is a bad idea if you're a Dem who rails daily and weekly against regressive taxation?
AGREED!
WE HAVE A BREAKTHROUGH!
* For Californians
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"Knowing means nothing." - Fat-badger
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Sin_of_Onin
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
Sin_of_Onin posted:
AA, let this thread die. You are making a fool of yourself.
So you agree that an inescapable* universal tax more pervasive than even an income tax, enforced at a flat rate, is a bad idea if you're a Dem who rails daily and weekly against regressive taxation?
AGREED!
WE HAVE A BREAKTHROUGH!
* For Californians
I think the problems with your argument have been pointed out to you already and now you are just repeating your strawman and your ignorance over and over. It is hard to watch.
You remind me of how paul used to be. After getting demolished in thread after thread eventually you just become a joke.
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ZigmundZag
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
ZigmundZag posted:
tl;dr - did AA figure out the difference between a consumption tax and an income tax yet?
No?
Thanks. I'll check back in tomorrow.
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Tych2
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Kjarhall
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
... if you're a Dem who rails daily and weekly against regressive taxation?
Ya still don't realize why this sentence is tripping you up?
-----signature-----
You're a crazy moron*
*http://vnboards.ign.com/outpost/b22180/115147923/r115151508/
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Kjarhall posted:
Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
... if you're a Dem who rails daily and weekly against regressive taxation?
Ya still don't realize why this sentence is tripping you up?
Apparently you and many others don't realize why it is tripping you up.
I can't draw a map any more clear unless I opened up your skulls and tattoo'd it in on your (tiny) brains. The persistent denial of this shows me I've scored a 100% win on this topic.
I'm fully aware of The Outpost Prime Directive: True is False. Then is now. They are us. All hail NewSpeak! 
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Sin_of_Onin
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
Apparently you and many others don't realize why it is tripping you up.
I can't draw a map any more clear unless I opened up your skulls and tattoo'd it in on your (tiny) brains. The persistent denial of this shows me I've scored a 100% win on this topic.
I'm fully aware of The Outpost Prime Directive: True is False. Then is now. They are us. All hail NewSpeak!
Making a tax less regressive is pushing through a regressive tax.
Being against a federal flat tax to replace the income tax because it is too regressive means you can't have any nuanced opinion on the many other taxes we have including state taxes.
Pointing out that gas taxes go to help pay for roads is immaterial when talking about what taxes are used.
Pointing out the fight at the state level against other regressive taxes is irrelevant.
etc etc
Like I said, you have been beaten so consistantly you are becoming brain damaged like paul. paul used to be more like you, now look at him.
-----signature-----
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Groucho48
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
Groucho48 posted:
Your thread title labelled it a flat or non-progressive tax. Now, you are calling it a highly regressive tax. That's even less accurate.
It's a flat consumption tax.
It is a non-progressive tax.
It is therefore a regressive tax.
It is a tax more pervasive than even an income tax.
It is therefore a highly regressive tax.
Keep up! You're smarter than that, Groucho. I expect it from the rest of the peanut gallery.
Could you perhaps provide an example of how a gas tax CAN be progressive? I do agree that in general, sales taxes and consumption taxes are not progressive. I will also stipulate that many liberals call them regressive. I think they are pushing the envelope a bit, though. However, what you are ranting about...the change from a % tax to a flat tax has absolutely no effect on whether the tax is "regressive" or not.
If you want to make an argument that states should only have a progressive income tax and do away with all the other taxes, I am with you. If you want to blast Democrats and/or Republicans for state lotteries, I will bring the torches. Worst tax their is, imho.
But, your rant on Democrats is based on the change from a % charge per gallon to a flat charge per gallon. That has absolutely no effect on the degree the tax is regressive and will save money if gasoline prices go up.
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AA I am going to offer some advice and feel free to take it or ignore it, but when everyone is saying you are wrong it's time for some reevaluation and/or self reflection on the topic in question.
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Groucho48 posted:
I do agree that in general, sales taxes and consumption taxes are not progressive. I will also stipulate that many liberals call them regressive.
That's as far as you need to go to understand then, Groucho.
Dems rant that there is no way a flat tax should ever be applied in any environ or to anything without an exemption floor because it "disproportionately punishes the poor and working class." No percentage-based or flat-rate income tax. The Poor should be exempted from flat or even % based consumption taxes on food. Etc.
Dems turn around when they are in legislative control in Cali and levy a tax on the ONE THING that is the ALMOST UNIVERSALLY PERVASIVE cost driver in our economy: gas. Thereby raising the price universally and flatly (regressively) on ***everything*** in their state. Not just income. Not just food. ***f'cking everything for everyone always***
Does that clear it up for you?
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Tych2 posted:
AA I am going to offer some advice and feel free to take it or ignore it, but when everyone is saying you are wrong it's time for some reevaluation and/or self reflection on the topic in question.
Nah. I'll actually keep teaching until the couple people intellectually capable of getting it... and interested in getting it... actually get my point.
On occasion I continue to throw the pearls before the swine. Because, on rare occasions, one of the swine shows he has evolved ever so slightly to appreciate their beauty.
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Elocism posted:
That would be...
The usual suspects posted:
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
Groucho48 posted:
I do agree that in general, sales taxes and consumption taxes are not progressive. I will also stipulate that many liberals call them regressive.
That's as far as you need to go to understand then, Groucho.
Dems rant that there is no way a flat tax should ever be applied in any environ or to anything without an exemption floor because it "disproportionately punishes the poor and working class." No percentage-based or flat-rate income tax. The Poor should be exempted from flat or even % based consumption taxes on food. Etc.
Dems turn around when they are in legislative control in Cali and levy a tax on the ONE THING that is the ALMOST UNIVERSALLY PERVASIVE cost driver in our economy: gas. Thereby raising the price universally and flatly (regressively) on ***everything*** in their state. Not just income. Not just food. ***f'cking everything for everyone always***
Does that clear it up for you?
This post is one part strawman and one part factually incorrect.
This has been pointed out to you multiple times. Is that clear?
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How is this thread still going? Stop being mean to AA. He obviously can't help himself. 
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
This post is one part strawman and one part factually incorrect.
This has been pointed out to you multiple times. Is that clear?
Yes. It is clear that your principal retort is one part strawman and one part factually incorrect.
My statement otoh is one obvious fact, paired with another obvious fact.
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Yukishiro1 posted:
How is this thread still going? Stop being mean to AA. He obviously can't help himself.
I gave some simple, but good advice and it's being ignored. You can only point out the problem. You can't force someone to face it.
[face_shrug]
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
My statement otoh is one obvious fact, paired with another obvious fact.
Did I miss the post where you admitted how effing dumb you were or something?
Just because Baym isn't around any more and just because Paulg has moved on from his insane blathering about doesn't mean you or anyone else has to pick up the torch and run with it...
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
Yes. It is clear that your principal retort is one part strawman and one part factually incorrect.
My statement otoh is one obvious fact, paired with another obvious fact.
Did the Cali legislature push through a new tax on gas or did they change the existing taxation of gas?
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
Dems rant that there is no way a flat tax should ever be applied in any environ or to anything without an exemption floor because it "disproportionately punishes the poor and working class."
This thread would be much more effective if it wasnt based on something you just made up. I have not seen Dems make this statement about 'anything'.
Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
No percentage-based or flat-rate income tax. The Poor should be exempted from flat or even % based consumption taxes on food. Etc.
2 things count as anything?
You seem to be assuming that just because you are a radical extremist on this issue, the other side must be the same way.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Aaaand we come full circle. Actually, it is WORSE than I first positioned it...
Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
A. Dems in Cali -- ALL ON THEIR OWN -- have instituted a 100% regressive tax on the most used and pervasive commodity in the state, disproportionately reaming every working man and woman therein on every purchase they now make.
B. You are still predictably trying to figure out how to apologize for and/or rationalize it.
1) F*ck you.
2) Tell me exactly what is incorrect about statements A. or B.
3) F*ck you.
Cali Dems and apologists posted:
Universal flat taxes & non-progressive tax are evil, UNLESS... WE pass them!!
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
Did the Cali legislature push through a new tax on gas or did they change the existing taxation of gas?
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
Aaaand we come full circle. Actually, it is WORSE than I first positioned it...
Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
A. Dems in Cali -- ALL ON THEIR OWN -- have instituted a 100% regressive tax on the most used and pervasive commodity in the state, disproportionately reaming every working man and woman therein on every purchase they now make.
B. You are still predictably trying to figure out how to apologize for and/or rationalize it.
1) F*ck you.
2) Tell me exactly what is incorrect about statements A. or B.
3) F*ck you.
Cali Dems and apologists posted:
Universal flat taxes & non-progressive tax are evil, UNLESS... WE pass them!!
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
Sin_of_Onin posted:
Irrelevancy
Irrelevant question is irrelevant. The Cali Dems controlled both houses and (every?) elected state office. They could do whatever they wanted. They chose to vote in and institute this pervasive & regressive tax.
Asked and answered. Next.
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Once the facts are established we can argue relevance.
So once again, did the Cali legislature push through a new tax on gas or did they change the existing taxation of gas?
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Abaddon posted:
Is California a State?
See. I can play that game, too.
Your question is irrelevant SoO to anyone with an IQ over 50.
Asked and answered. Next.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
Abaddon posted:
Is California a State?
See. I can play that game, too.
Your question is irrelevant SoO to anyone with an IQ over 50.
Asked and answered. Next.
Not answered because you are a wussy.
So once again, did the Cali legislature push through a new tax on gas or did they change the existing taxation of gas?
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
Abaddon posted:
Is California a State?
See. I can play that game, too.
Your question is irrelevant SoO to anyone with an IQ over 50.
Asked and answered. Next.
Not answered because you are a wussy.
So once again, did the Cali legislature push through a new tax on gas or did they change the existing taxation of gas?
It's a painful thing to watch a dog owner push their dog's face into the pile of shit they just dropped in the family room...
You aren't going to stop AA from shitting all over the place - and you aren't going to get him to openly admit how incredibly effing dumb he is...
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I wouldn't have it any other way.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
Irrelevant question is irrelevant. The Cali Dems controlled both houses and (every?) elected state office. They could do whatever they wanted.
Incidentally, this is another factually wrong statement. Instituting new taxes takes 2/3s of the legislature in California. The Dems dont have 2/3s. I will stick to my commitment to not mocking you in this thread but pointing out where you are simply wrong as a factual matter isn't mocking.
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Yukishiro1 posted:
Raising taxes takes 2/3s of the legislature in California. The Dems dont have 2/3s.
We can let the MBA run the numbers but of 80 seats 28 or 29 of them are Republican.
/Herp Derp
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Facts? wut?
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theredkay1 posted:
Facts? wut?
Thank you for so succinctly summarizing your position.
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So once again, did the Cali legislature push through a new tax on gas or did they change the existing taxation of gas?
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
Kjarhall posted:
Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
... if you're a Dem who rails daily and weekly against regressive taxation?
Ya still don't realize why this sentence is tripping you up?
Apparently you and many others don't realize why it is tripping you up.
I can't draw a map any more clear unless I opened up your skulls and tattoo'd it in on your (tiny) brains. The persistent denial of this shows me I've scored a 100% win on this topic.
I'm fully aware of The Outpost Prime Directive: True is False. Then is now. They are us. All hail NewSpeak!
So the answer is no, you don't realize it. Even though it's been pointed out a few times. You've sadly fallen into a Paulian Pitfall, the false premise.
So sad.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
A. Dems in Cali -- ALL ON THEIR OWN -- have instituted a 100% regressive tax on the most used and pervasive commodity in the state, disproportionately reaming every working man and woman therein on every purchase they now make.
B. You are still predictably trying to figure out how to apologize for and/or rationalize it.
1) F*ck you.
2) Tell me exactly what is incorrect about statements A. or B.
3) F*ck you.
Cali Dems and apologists posted:
Universal flat taxes & non-progressive tax are evil, UNLESS... WE pass them!!
-----signature-----
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Sin_of_Onin
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
So once again, did the Cali legislature push through a new tax on gas or did they change the existing taxation of gas?
This is a straight forward question that is easy to answer but you are dodging it.
/boggle
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To be fair, trolling by stupidity is a common, if somewhat less respected, tradition on the Outpost.
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Sin_of_Onin
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ZigmundZag posted:
To be fair, trolling by stupidity is a common, if somewhat less respected, tradition on the Outpost.
And so is flaming the hell out of it.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
ZigmundZag posted:
To be fair, trolling by stupidity is a common, if somewhat less respected, tradition on the Outpost.
And so is flaming the hell out of it.
Yes... this chance to repeatedly flame you guys has been cathartic. Almost a guilty pleasure.
Almost.
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Sin_of_Onin
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"Libs": Flat taxes & non-progressive tax are evil, UNLESS...
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
I can't answer a simple question
I noticed.
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AzureTyger
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"Libs": Flat taxes & non-progressive tax are evil, UNLESS...
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ZigmundZag posted:
To be fair, trolling by stupidity is a common, if somewhat less respected, tradition on the Outpost.
I am not sure he is trolling as much as realizing the corner he painted himself into and hoping he can outlast the ridicule.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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"Libs": Flat taxes & non-progressive tax are evil, UNLESS...
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
A. Dems in Cali -- ALL ON THEIR OWN -- have instituted a 100% regressive tax on the most used and pervasive commodity in the state, disproportionately reaming every working man and woman therein on every purchase they now make.
B. You are still predictably trying to figure out how to apologize for and/or rationalize it.
1) F*ck you.
2) Tell me exactly what is incorrect about statements A. or B.
3) F*ck you.
Cali Dems and apologists posted:
Universal flat taxes & non-progressive tax are evil, UNLESS... WE pass them!!
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Sin_of_Onin
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"Libs": Flat taxes & non-progressive tax are evil, UNLESS...
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So once again, did the Cali legislature push through a new tax on gas or did they change the existing taxation of gas?
Your post that you keep repeating is retarded btw and my question helps establish why it is wrong or at the very least misleading.
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Yukishiro1
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I think repeatedly quoting your own post which says "fuck you" twice is getting pretty melty.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Abaddon posted:
B-o-r-e-d now.
Nothing better? No?
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Sin_of_Onin
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Aww is our lil clown getting tired?
I am sure you will find another way to make a fool of yourself soon enough.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
Aww is our lil clown getting tired?
No, Yuki posted here quite recently, in fact.
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Yukishiro1
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You are not being very gracious about me feeling sorry for you and deciding not to mock you any more in this thread.
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Sin_of_Onin
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BTW Arnold was Gov at the time this bill passed.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
BTW Arnold was Gov at the time this bill passed.
And he can pass into law exactly how many taxation measures without the Democratic-controlled legislature, again?
Hint: The number is somewhere between 0 and 0.
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Sin_of_Onin
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So when you said "All on their own" you really meant "with Arnold"
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Yukishiro1
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The dems couldn't pass any taxes without republican support either, contrary to your oft-repeated assertion.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Yukishiro1 posted:
The dems couldn't pass any taxes without republican support either, contrary to your oft-repeated assertion.
The legislature couldn't pass into law any regressive tax on gas without Dem majority, support, leadership, and authorship.
Which they had. And led. And did.
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Yukishiro1
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You said they passed it 100% on their own.
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Sin_of_Onin
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Is anyone saying otherwise AA? You are the one that was spouting the nonsense about "all on their own"
It is like you think people pointing out the factual defects of your argument is some endorsement of some other random argument.
This thread reminds me of a great german word.
Schadenfreude
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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California democrats instituted a new tax and passed it into law, via a Dem controlled legislature, via a Dem-led bill and Dem-led committee process. Winning with a Dem-majority vote capable of driving it through.
The Governor signed it and executed it.
If you want to claim some victory over the word 'instituted' because it somehow helps you turn away from the hypocrisy of the Dem party in sponsoring, writing, voting, and passing this regressive tax, feel free... I guess... ?
Any of this makes the Dems not hypocritical... how, again ?
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Yukishiro1
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So basically we all agree you were wrong on the factual assertions you made. Glad we cleared that up.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
Any of this makes the Dems not hypocritical... how, again ?
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Sin_of_Onin
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Actually the tax change included a tax decrease as well as a tax increase as myself and others have pointed out and you refuse to address.
To attack this change as especially regressive is retarded any way you spin it IMO because the tax already existed. You can attack gas taxes in general I suppose but then you can't tie it to this particular legislative action. Which is a pretty damn stupid thing to get all huffy about unless you are some partisan dumbass and the merits of tax policy are not as important as your partisan crusade.
Arnold was even the one that came up with the structure for the change anyway.
Like I said awhile back the topic(state taxation and progressivity) is interesting and worthy of discussion but you are too stupid and too partisan to have the conversation. You have a poor understanding of facts and are driven by a stupid partisan agenda.
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Sin_of_Onin
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
All of this pointing out my factuall mistake don't impact my argument because it wasn't based on facts in teh first place! HA!
<insert picture of goldfish>
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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"Libs": Flat taxes & non-progressive tax are evil, UNLESS...
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
LONG irrelevancy
When you say it is bad to pick up a gun to shoot the working man...
When you watch people year after year pick up a gun and shoot the working man...
Then you plan and then pick up a gun and shoot the working man...
That makes you a hypocrite.
This thread and OP isn't some exercise in relative ethics. I wrote it. The topic is hypocrisy. The hypocrisy here is still crystal clear, despite 120+ posts of people trying to obfuscate it:
Cali Dems in their hypocrisy posted:
Flat taxes & non-progressive tax are evil, UNLESS... WE pass them.
All the wiggling in the world won't get you out of this fact...
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Yukishiro1
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So basically we spent 150 posts establishing you were wrong on all your facts. That seems like a lot of posts.
If you just wanted to make an abstract point why not make the abstract point instead of making a bunch of statements that turned out to be wrong?
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Sin_of_Onin
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It doesn't matter who passed them. There are gas taxes all over the country and at the federal level. You don't have to tell me who passed them for me to create an argument for them.
Trying to tie that argument to this particular legislative action is just stupid.
If you want to talk progressivity and state taxes I am all for it but when you repeatedly deomstrate ignorance, partisanship, illogical thinking, and a general inability to understand any topic that is put before you it seems pointless to even try.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Yukishiro1 posted:
If you just wanted to make an abstract point why not make the abstract point instead of making a bunch of statements that turned out to be wrong?
Because a semantic difference between the single word 'instituted' vs 'passed' is 100% irrelevant to the point and OP. As I've pointed out via innumerable posts leading up to this one.
At least you guys seem to be letting the definition of 'hypocrisy' sink into your skulls, however. That's a good sign.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
If you just wanted to make an abstract point why not make the abstract point instead of making a bunch of statements that turned out to be wrong?
Because a semantic difference between the single word 'instituted' vs 'passed' is 100% irrelevant to the point and OP.
So the reason you decided to make wrong factual assertions instead of a general point was that you wanted to make a general point and the inaccuracy of your factual assertions didn't matter? 
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ZigmundZag
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Now we're getting into semantics of "Instituted" vs. "Passed"? Really?
This must be what Paul looks like when he reads this thread -
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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ZigmundZag posted:
Now we're getting into semantics of "Instituted" vs. "Passed"? Really?
Not "we" or "me"... Yuki and SoO are spending 40+ posts trying to pretend the semantics of "instituted" vs "passed" matter to this topic. Because I refused to go running off after unrelated topics.
News flash: The semantics they're arguing for pages are STILL irrelevant to the topic.
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Remnant_OBrien
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Why does Abaddon continue to be wrong about the basic facts in this entire discussion?
Probably because his ARGLBARGL point doesn't make any sense if he doesn't make shit up.
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Sin_of_Onin
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I don't even know what the semantic argument over passed came from let alone how it was assigned to anything I said. There is a difference between creating the original tax and tweaking it though and that has nothing to do with either word. As I already pointed out the only reason any of this has come up because AA is a partisan hack who doesn't actually want to talk about the merits of a gas tax and what state taxation should be based on the desire to have a progressive tax structure.
This thread is most clearly about AA trying to call a political party he doesn't like hypocrites. Something he has failed at rather horribly.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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More? Dear Lord, why do you keep coming back here to get the snot kicked out of you? Are you masochists?
All I have to do is repeat the initial statement and observation again to be correct. So, why should I continue to do it? "The thrill is gone, baby."
The Dems executed a textbook case of hypocrisy. It's the very definition of the word. No amount of semantic wrangling about how I or anyone else expresses that fact changes the fact itself.
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Sin_of_Onin
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
More? Dear Lord, why do you keep coming back here to get the snot kicked out of you? Are you masochists?
All I have to do is repeat the initial statement and observation again to be correct. So, why should I continue to do it? "The thrill is gone, baby."
The Dems executed a textbook case of hypocrisy. It's the very definition of the word. No amount of semantic wrangling about how I or anyone else expresses that fact changes the fact itself.
You got the facts wrong. You got the stance of liberals wrong. Considering you are trying to compare facts to a political position it helps if you get your facts right and the political position correct.
Since you did neither it is hard for you to claim victory and rather easy for everyone to point and laugh at you over and over and over.
It is in no way shape or form hypocritical for a political party to take a regressive tax and change it so that the revenue from the tax doesn't go so high when gas prices are high. A major reason to make this change is tied to concerns over who pays the tax and how it impacts them.
If you want to talk about when the tax was first created or how the money is being used for GF expenditures and not transportation projects then knock yourself out.
There are numerous legitimate arguments you can make concerning this issue and you failed to make one. That is a major reason why this thread is such a marvelous self pwn on your part. This issue can be like shooting fish in a barrel and you missed on got your face.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
You got the facts wrong...
I got one word of semantics wrong, in a follow-up post. Here. Let me correct that "horrific" error:
Abaddon posted:
A. Dems in Cali -- ALL ON THEIR OWN -- have instituted* a 100% regressive tax on the most used and pervasive commodity in the state, disproportionately reaming every working man and woman therein.
B. You are still predictably trying to figure out how to apologize for and/or rationalize it.
* "voted in"
Uhm... go ahead. Knock yourselves out continuing to look like idiots.
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Remnant_OBrien
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You've missed like 3 or 4 factual errors in that post... and corrected something no one cared about.
Grats on compounding your failure one more time.
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"Libs": Flat taxes & non-progressive tax are evil, UNLESS...
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
I don't even know what the semantic argument over passed came from let alone how it was assigned to anything I said.
That's AA trying to wiggle as much as possible until this thread dies and he can pretend it never happened...
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Yukishiro1
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
Sin_of_Onin posted:
You got the facts wrong...
I got one word of semantics wrong, in a follow-up post. Here. Let me correct that "horrific" error:
Abaddon posted:
A. Dems in Cali -- ALL ON THEIR OWN -- have instituted* a 100% regressive tax on the most used and pervasive commodity in the state, disproportionately reaming every working man and woman therein.
B. You are still predictably trying to figure out how to apologize for and/or rationalize it.
* "voted in"
Uhm... go ahead. Knock yourselves out continuing to look like idiots.
No one cared about instituted vs whatever you said at first.
The factual errors are:
1. It wasn't all on their own.
2. It wasn't instituting a new tax, they just changed the method by which the old one was calculated.
3. The new method ends up hurting working class people less than the old method.
So basically you're wrong about everything that matters in your assertion.
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Sin_of_Onin
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Yukishiro1 posted:
No one cared about instituted vs whatever you said at first.
The factual errors are:
1. It wasn't all on their own.
2. It wasn't instituting a new tax, they just changed the method by which the old one was calculated.
3. The new method ends up hurting working class people less than the old method.
So basically you're wrong about everything that matters in your assertion.
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F is for Fake-believe
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Ashmaele
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This thread is like a bad penny!
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Abaddon posted:
A. Dems in Cali -- ALL ON THEIR OWN -- have instituted* a 100% regressive tax on the most used and pervasive commodity in the state, disproportionately reaming every working man and woman therein.
B. You are still predictably trying to figure out how to apologize for and/or rationalize it.
* "voted in"
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Remnant_OBrien
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
Yukishiro1 posted:
No one cared about instituted vs whatever you said at first.
The factual errors are:
1. It wasn't all on their own.
2. It wasn't instituting a new tax, they just changed the method by which the old one was calculated.
3. The new method ends up hurting working class people less than the old method.
So basically you're wrong about everything that matters in your assertion.
And yeah, the basic error of this entire thread is that you attempt to attribute to Democrats (and how they interact with the relevant issues here) the same style of rigidity and absolutism that you see in great parts of the Republican party (on tax issues). You then compound that by making an ongoing list of factual errors in a deliberate attempt to not understand what you're talking about.
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Sin_of_Onin
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Ashmaele posted:
This thread is like a hilariously bad penny!
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Ashmaele
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Actually it's just like aids
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Remnant_OBrien posted:
And yeah, the basic error of this entire thread is that you attempt to attribute to Democrats (and how they interact with the relevant issues here) the same style of rigidity and absolutism that you see in great parts of the Republican party (on tax issues).
Rigidity? By no means. What thread are you reading?
I only attribute to Dems the label of 'hypocrisy' they so rightly deserve.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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reesescups posted:
That's AA trying to wiggle as much as possible until this thread dies and he can pretend it never happened...
Are you kidding? Having never been so right in a thread in my entire Outpost history, I'll probably be putting this bad boy in my SIGNATURE.
By the way, I leave for a biz trip after about 5pm today and I'll prolly be disconnected a couple days. So if you want my mentorship on this issue, you have only a few more hours. Hurry! Offer ends soon! Act now!!
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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-----signature-----
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"Knowing means nothing." - Fat-badger
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ZigmundZag
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/affected
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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ZigmundZag posted:
/affected
I'm sorry you have been affected by this thread.
Truth does have that impact, though. Relax. Let it sink in.
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Clackdor
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My favorite part of this thread is when AA made the liberals go all  and  .
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Sin_of_Onin
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You are clearly wrong about pointing to this act by the Cali legislature as some smoking gun. You have repeatedly been unable to create an argument that is not built on factual inaccuracies and straw men. Even if one can get passed this inability to line up your argument with reality your argument is based on the premise that approving a gas tax makes someone a hypocrite if they are against regressive taxation.
That argument requires you to assume that people are unable to have a nuanced position on taxation and fails to take into account the context in which the gas tax is being implemented. Your argument is even more ridiculous if you try and tie it to the flat taxes and regressive taxes proposed and implemented at the federal level.
Your argument fails on multiple levels rather badly. Your facts are wrong and your reasoning is horrible. Your motivation is also clearly partisan hackery and not about developing sensible tax policy. There is nothing redeeming about your contribution to the topic.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
You are clearly wrong about pointing to this act by the Cali legislature as some smoking gun. You have repeatedly been unable to create an argument that is not built on factual inaccuracies and straw men.
No. I point to a couple clear facts, and utilize those facts to observe the definition 'hypocrisy' applies to said facts. Simple as that.
You and other apologists are the ones trying to rationalize or mitigate this as something other than hypocrisy by adding a sliding scale of relative ethics, or arguing semantics which have nothing to do with the observation.
The Cali Dems participated in a highly pervasive and hypocritical action here. Done, and done. Supporters should take their lumps and move on.
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Sin_of_Onin
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Yuki already pointed out your factual mistakes which you have not been able to admit to because you are a partisan hack. This is open and shut. You are trying to assign some special guilt to the cali legislature over the taxation of gas because of this change which does not match reality. Your argument fails on a factual basis.
The other part of your argument which is more general also fails. That given the assumption that democrats are responsible for gas taxes, in cali and other places, they are hypocrites because they are against regressive taxation but support gas taxes. This argument also fails on multiple levels but mostly because it requires black and white thinking. It is based on the premise that if you are against regressive taxation that you have to have a zero tolerance policy towards any regressive tax or you are a hypocrite.
I am not aware of many liberals who have stated they have a zero tolerance policy for regressive taxation. This makes your claim that they are hypocrites a straw man.
I am aware of my own argument against regressive taxation and I fully support gas taxes despite the fact that they are regressive. I am more than happy to argue the merits of the gas tax and the problems with flat taxes & regressive taxes I don't like. I am not a hypocrite for having these opinions. You don't need to try and attach this issue to the cali legislature.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
Yuki already pointed out your factual mistakes...
Which was completely corrected by substituting one word: 'voted' for 'instituted'. Even that is me being magnanimous about the importance of the semantic difference... which is zero, by the way. The action of the Cali Dems is clear cut hypocrisy. Regardless.
Sin_of_Onin posted:
The other part of your argument which is more general also fails... is based on the premise that if you are against [pervasive] regressive taxation that you have to have a zero tolerance policy towards any regressive tax or you are a hypocrite.
Uhm... yes. That would be the definition of hypocrisy, numbnuts. "Degrees" of hypocrisy aren't measured by me in this thread, nor ever stated. That's for politicians and their apologist patsies like yourself to spin, in your attempt to mislead the less intelligent. See below, because your statement makes no sense without the word I inserted to clarify.
Sin_of_Onin posted:
I am not aware of many liberals who have stated they have a zero tolerance policy for regressive taxation.
But you and I are both aware of hundreds of leading liberals who are 100% against PERVASIVE, UNIVERSAL regressive taxation. Which is what a regressive gas tax is, for everyone within the state it is instituted. Driver or no.
In conclusion... do you understand? Or do you remain willfully ignorant?
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Remnant_OBrien
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In conclusion, you're stupid and you've convinced yourself that you're smart.
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Sin_of_Onin
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AA your factual errors remain. The idea that changing the word matters is hilarious.
I don't really care that much about that issue though beyond the fact you are making a fool of yourself. I will gladly admit that I am both for a gas tax and against regressive taxation. If you want to argue that holding these two positions makes one a hypocrite you can argue with me.
You have failed to make an argument that goes beyond black and white thinking. In order to be a hypocrite one has to not actually have the belief they say they have. It does not mean that one cannot not have competing beliefs or that a belief has to be absolute. Your argument fails on both of these points.
Do you understand that someone can have two beliefs that compete and one wins out over the other? For example being against lying and against hurting people's feelings?
Also the belief of being against regressive taxation is most certainly an issue that can be on a sliding scale. All discussions of tax policy require you to understand this rather basic idea.
These two things are obvious IMO and you have made a fool of yourself by ignoring them. Your factual errors and your blindness to them are just icing on the cake of your failed argument.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
I remain willfully ignorant, trying to introduce irrelevant side topics while continuing my partisan apologetics. Despite Ab's incredibly clear walk-through.
Got it.
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Sin_of_Onin
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Why are you still talking about being an apologist for other people? I am putting my own position out there.
Your position is so weak that you have spent 4 pages trying not to talk about it. I happen to enjoy watching fools squirm for pages so keep it up.
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Remnant_OBrien
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At this point I think Abaddon might be mocking himself... if you read his posts as pertaining to himself they make way more sense.
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reesescups
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
reesescups posted:
That's AA trying to wiggle as much as possible until this thread dies and he can pretend it never happened...
Are you kidding? Having never been so right in a thread in my entire Outpost history, I'll probably be putting this bad boy in my SIGNATURE.
yeah was gonna save that one for someone else but honestly - I think it's more appropriate right here...
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
Your position is so weak that you have spent 4 pages trying not to talk about it...
On the contrary. I have talked at length. But, only about my own position and the facts relevant to the observed case of hypocrisy... not the half dozen "look over there" distractions you want to insert.
Too bad. So sad.
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Sin_of_Onin
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
Sin_of_Onin posted:
Your position is so weak that you have spent 4 pages trying not to talk about it...
On the contrary. I have talked at length. But, only about my own position and the facts relevant to the observed case of hypocrisy... not the half dozen "look over there" distractions you want to insert.
Too bad. So sad.
Actually pretty much every post, including the original, amounts to factual claims that are blatantly false followed by your claim of victory.
I enjoy each one since they so clearly demonstrate who you are. Full of ignorance and poor reasoning.
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Abaddon_Ambrosius
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Sin_of_Onin posted:
I enjoy each one since they so clearly demonstrate who you are. Full of ignorance and poor reasoning.
In the bizarro backwards-world that passes for 'SoO logic', I take that as high praise. Your disapproval is a sure sign I am on the right path.
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Remnant_OBrien
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Abaddon_Ambrosius posted:
Sin_of_Onin posted:
I enjoy each one since they so clearly demonstrate who you are. Full of ignorance and poor reasoning.
In the bizarro backwards-world that passes for 'SoO logic', I take that as high praise. Your disapproval is a sure sign I am on the right path.
Self-lobotomies are funny.
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Eager_Igraine
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.
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theredkay1
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AA has a lot of good threads. This is his best.
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